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Should Gays and Lesbians be allowed to Adopt Children? 

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/gay_adoption.HTM

(Edited by %1034118704%.)
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 4:24 PM on May 1, 2002 | IP
holsbeke

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NO


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Patricia Holsbeke
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 9:03 PM on June 22, 2002 | IP
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and why not?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:19 PM on August 14, 2002 | IP
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Why shouldnt gays and lesbiand be able to adopt there is no reason other then people say," It just dont look right!" Come on people get over it! Am I gay or lesbian? HECK NO! But me and my husband have 2 beautiful little girls and I tell you know matter what they did I would back them up because the last time I knew love was supposed to be unconditional! GAYS AND LESBIANS ARE PEOPLE TOO WE SHOULD START TREATING THEM AS IF THEY WERE!!!They are no different so whats the big deal/ And who has the right to say not to these people the are American Citizens too or are they different? NOT!!!!
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 09:55 AM on August 28, 2002 | IP
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YAY! Somebody else also sees the light- I really can't understand what the big deal is. They're human, just like all of us. Therefore, they have the same rights.

Jeez- how sad is this? We can't even handle differences within our species. Can you imagine how we would react if we ever met Extraterrestrial life?
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 9:52 PM on September 7, 2002 | IP
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No Way  - It isn't  MORAL  - AND IT IS TOTAL DISRESPECT to a TRUE form of family!


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Pro 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 10:05 PM on September 7, 2002 | IP
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You don't think homosexuality is moral. I don't think christianity is moral. Both of our opinions are irrelevant, because neither of us has the authority to say what is and is not moral! Or rather, we can say whatever we want, but the law frankly is blind to morality. It only deals, and only should deal with rights and protecting freedom, not taking it away.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:10 PM on September 7, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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NO WAY, homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt for the sake of the child.  There is to much mental abuse that a kid would take on from this happening and I don't think it should happen.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 01:17 AM on September 9, 2002 | IP
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Actually, both the American Pediatric Association and the American Psychological Association ran studies and found no evidence that kids raised by gay couples were any worse off that those raised by straight couples.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:54 PM on September 9, 2002 | IP
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For all of you who think that gay parenting is not moral or a disrespect to a true family, take a second look.  Look at all the so called normal husband and wife families where the children are beaten or sexually abused.  Should a husband and wife couple who have been know to do things be allowed to adopt and a gay couple not be?  How does that make any sense?

Also, I don't see how all these Bible beaters can say what is immoral and what is moral.  God himself does not define homosexuality as immoral.  He simply says it is wrong for a man to lie with another man.  He also says that cursing is wrong.  How many of you curse?  Yeah, that is what I thought!   Homosexuailty is no more "wrong" that cussing someone out or using a sware word to get a point across.  

And let's look at one more thing.  Growing up I had a typical mother and father.  Both worked.  Both made decent money.  Both drove nice cars, we had a nice house and I had nice clothes.  Yet, every single day of my life someone would tease me about something.  I was too short or I was too fat.  I drove an ugly car at the age of 16.  My nike's were out of style.  Please, children of gay parents will not get made fun of more than any other kid on the playground.  Let's face facts, kids are just cruel... and a lot of their parents are also.

So the next time someone wants to start judging a gay person for being gay, take a second to read and re-read your Bible.  That ought to shut you up if in fact you are the Christian you say you are.  Quit judging other people!

Galen
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:48 AM on September 19, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Gays and lesbians are human, just like me, or guest, or holmsbeck, or even the admin.  Perhaps their mindset is differnt, but maybe thats just the way they were born.  I became a goth because of the way i felt.  Not because my parents were, even though their not.  a gay couple has the same qualities as a straight couple.  Perhaps god does not want you to be gay, but he also did not want adam and eve to take that apple.  They did it anyways.  No one person can change a persons mind.  That person has to also agree to the mind changing.

A gay person has every right to a child if they want one.  How many people can rightfully say they have never wanted a child?  Gay people are just the same -  they wanted to be treated human, just like anyone else.  It all is the same.

As a child, my dad was harsh, then i grew up, and he knew i was rebelious, so he wasnt as harsh.  My parents also divorced, so that has an impact on me.  I also have a few gay friends, but they are nice, and respect my sexuality.

I think if we all just act humane, smart and polite, our society can have gays and straights.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 3:53 PM on September 24, 2002 | IP
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the burden of proof is on opponents to gay adoption/marriage/homosexuality in general. american society is founded on the notion of negative liberty (as posited by John Locke), which states basically that the limits of one person's freedoms is only defined by how those freedoms infringe (or not) on other peoples' freedoms. gays to not have to justify what they want or do; conservatives must give good reasons why they should not be allowed to. religion is not a suitable basis for such a reason, because religious doctrine does not direct law in america (so sayeth the separation of church and state). beyond that, there is no scientific (social, physiological, or otherwise) evidence that supports any claim that there is anything wrong with homosexuality, including gays rights to adoption and marriage. when it comes down to it, one always finds conservatives' arguments are predicated not on any logical thought process, but rather on prejudice (disgust, fear, discomfort, whatever). It always comes back to that. All of their logic is specious. they start with a prejudice, and then just search for arguments that superficially support it. that is no way to pursue truth, or a path towards a better society.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 05:31 AM on September 26, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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yes, but are gays alines?  terrorists?  people?  PEOPLE, they just want to be treated the same as a normal family.  Gay adoption is just a way of a parent saying 'i love children'.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:29 AM on September 26, 2002 | IP
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I would just like to set the record for all the people in her that think Christian are just whats wrong with the world today.  I am a Christain, I do not think homosexuality is right, but there is a difference between tolerance and acceptance.  I have friends that I know to be gay, I tolerate that, but I will never accept it.  As for cussing, "...all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" -Romans 3:23  Christians are by no means claming to be perfect, we strive after the heart of God, to do what he wills, but we are all going to fail once and a while, thats where his awesome grace and mercy comes in.  You may be wondering, what about his mercy to homosexuals then?  He loves them as his children but those who lead a homosexual lifestyle rebel agaist him, if they would only turn to him, they're sins would be long forgotton...


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:12 PM on October 8, 2002 | IP
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I don't think Christian beliefs are whats wrong with the world today. This particular christian belief? Yeah, I believe its wrong. Discriminating against a group of people is accepted as wrong, not allowing the rights and priviledges enjoyed by others is wrong, and draping "god" over it all doesn't negate that. Sakata, you are extremely intelligent, more so than many of the posters on the board, but you need to give out more reasoning than "God (christian God) says so"  for your posts to have real credibilty.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:20 AM on October 9, 2002 | IP
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I ony make sense that God shoudl "discriminate" agaist people that blatantly disobay his law, you obeviously think Homosexuality is okay so lets pick something we both agree on.  For example, child molesters (please tell me you think this is wrong) some people argue that it is in-born, that they cant help if they get turned on by little children, would it therefore be wrong and discriminatory for God to not allow them into his kingdom if they raped Children? Just becuase modern socitey has accepted Homosexuality as acceptable doesnt mean that it is right in Gods eyes. "...God gave his unchanging truth..."(Jude 1:3) He will not change his opinion because the world changes theirs.  Thanks for the advice btw, I look forward to debating on college campuses when I grow up and you are the kind of person I have been looking for, the more questions you throw at me the stronger of a debator I will become, so I look forward to many arguements in the future.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:40 PM on October 9, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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(It wont let me edit my post, grr, I hate typos...especially when I do like 10 of them in a row lol)


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:47 PM on October 9, 2002 | IP
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thanks for the compliment (about my debating prowess i mean, i have been to many debates in high school, and enjoyed myself at all of them). Now, of course God can set his own rules for who gets into heaven, but that doesn't mean we dont have the right (in fact the duty) to protest them if we think they are wrong. Interesting fact about judiasm, you are encouraged to argue with God, and it is generally accepted that he can be wrong. A group of orthodox rabbi's (that's ultra-religious), put God on trial for crimes against humanity after the pogroms in russia. They found him guilty.
But anyway, God can do what he wants. But his injustice STILL isn't enough of a reason for us to continue it in our own laws. We need reasons in the secular, living world to restrict freedoms (fortunatly in the case of child molestation, that reasoning isn't hard to find, religion or no)


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:41 PM on October 9, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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What right do we have to tell the creator of the universe, who set the stars in place and fashioned it so perfectly it is beyond our comprehension, that he is wrong, and we're right? How in the world does one look around at the stars, the sun, the ocean, a rose, and say well, I think I am right.  I would not follow a God that could be corrected and out thought by his own creaton. I mean where do these rabbi's think wisdom came from if not from God?  He created the heavens and the earth, He made people and their minds, wouldnt it make sense that he created wisdom too?  I think I will believe that these rabbis really know what's best when they create and entire universe out of nothing, or better yet, just make something as simple as a sunset, I would like to see the rabbi's paint the sky with every color of the rainbow, every night.  

(Edited by Sakata 10/10/2002 at 01:09 AM).


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:05 AM on October 10, 2002 | IP
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it is i believe a universal tenet of both christianity that "talent" (which God possesses infinite amount of) and "correctness" (where God sadly comes up short) are not synomonous with each other. I would suppose we have the same right to tell God that he is wrong that abraham did when he said "hey, slaughtering both the bad AND good people in sodom and gommorah is not right. if you do that, you'd be wrong." Abraham argued with God and won. Because in this case, abraham was right and god was wrong. The problem with the whole "God is perfect and omnipotent" theory is that for God to be infinite he has to include evil in himself, else he is not infinite, but only half of life. So if we accept God as infinite then we accept that he is right 1/2 of the time. And if he is limited to only good, by definition a) that means he isn't complete which is in violation of the fundamental tenets of what constitutes a judeo-christian "God" b) he isn't perfect, and therefore can be wrong and c) there is another, competing being (satan?) that has equal power, meaning that 1/2 the bible would be the "good" half, and 1/2 the "bad" half, and then the book is wide open on which parts are good and which are bad.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:49 PM on October 10, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I will give a full reply later because I have too much homework to stay long right now but I jus thave to say, Satan is by no means equal to God, Satan does not torment this earth because God is unable to stop him, God lets him go so that he may find his true followers, if there was no deception, doubt, suffering, there would be no growing in the Lord.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:10 PM on October 10, 2002 | IP
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im interested on how u reconcile the rest of my attack...
waiting eagerly!


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:58 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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yeah, I was thinking about this today, and I think I already gave you my answer in my last post, if God created everything, created man, created their minds, created wisdom and intelligence, there is no possible way that a person could out think God.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:39 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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Why are we disscussing this in a Gay Adoption forum anyway? hehe


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:40 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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I think that the only evil in the Bible is in people's messed up interpretations.  


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 10:19 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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oh sure its always the peoples fault. and we arent necessarily "outthinking" god. we are merely looking at it from different perceptions, and in this case (sodom and gommorah) our percpective was accepted.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:46 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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I understand how it may have appeared that Abraham conned God into doing something, but it was really Gods doing to help Abraham understand.  He said that if there were 10 righteuos men in s/g that he would not destroy it, and yet we see that he destroyed it anyway.  Therefore implying that there where no righteous men in s/g otherwise he wouldnt have destroyed, this wasnt for God to help him understand, but for Abraham, so that he would understand that there where no righteous men living in s/g other than Him and his family otherwise God would not have destroyed it.

(Edited by Sakata 10/12/2002 at 12:36 AM).


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 12:34 AM on October 12, 2002 | IP
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good point sakata


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 12:37 AM on October 12, 2002 | IP
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i call that spin doctoring. besides, there were rightous folks in s/g (lot and his family), who would have died had abraham not intervened. OK, how about "go sacrifice your son on an alter to me." Yes I know that God didn't force Abraham to go through with it, but that's a damn cruel test.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 6:03 PM on October 12, 2002 | IP
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I don't understand how people could believe any of this stuff. You know, even if I did concede that there was a trascendental being/presence (which i don't), then that would lead to a realm of possibility with an infinite range of possibilities as to what kind of being/presence that is. thus the chances that there is really a deity that has a problem with gays is infinitessimily (I know, spelled wrong) negligible. There is an equal chance that Barney the Purple Dinosaur created the cosmos. I just don't get it. And of course you can just say, "No, but it's faith; all that logic stuff doesn't apply." Well, you'd be right, but that's why I think religion is the big "cop-out", cause you adopt a position that is completely indefensible and yet totally unassailable at the same time, and yet you are comfortable with that. I think it's absurd, and I know I am coming across as an insensitive @$$, but every time I've had a conversation with someone about this, it always comes down to this: "Well, I just couldn't live in a world where there was no God." Well, it sucks for us agnostics too, but wanting something to exist is no reason to believe that it exists.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 11:32 AM on October 13, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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So you think God would have destroyed Abraham if he had not said something?  You suspect you mean, your not God, you dont know what he was planning, God already knew that Abraham would ask him, he knew before Abraham was even born.  As for your other comment "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance." -James1: 2-3



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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 4:47 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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So Alex you think religion is completely indefensible and yet totally unassailable?  Then what would be the point of a Religion thread where we debate religion, if no one  could attack or defend it? ...and I am a Christian and I dont believe in God just because I dont want to live in the world without him.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 4:51 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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what alex is saying (i assume) is that religion is totally unprovable (hence why it is considered "faith") and for those same reasons unattackable. Religion exists outside the realm of logic, it is something that we "can't understand." So any attack by non-believers can be dismissed as a logical attack on something that isn't constrained by logic, and that defense can be dismissed by non-believers as a cop-out due to the fact that the believers aren't giving any reason outside of "God said so." It's an impossible circle to break. Incidentally, this same issue resolves all of our disagreements above, neither will respond to each others arguments in a way that persuades the other, because I focus on the logic that dictates our everyday life, and you insist that issues involving God are above logical analysis by humans.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:27 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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and what about a response to my comment dsadevil?  I think it was logical enough...

and if all i said in defence was, "God says so" I doubt we would still be in such indepth debates.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:35 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
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Sakata, I would like to try and break down your argument if I may. I do think your entire position does, when deconstructed, really come to the fact that you cannot accept homosexuality simply because "God says so".
You started by saying (I paraphasing as best i can, because this page doesn't include all the responses going back) "I am a Christian, I think homosexuality is wrong". Then you went on to say "Homosexuals should be discriminated against God, because they rebel against his will" (I know you don't mean we should go around lynching gays, it is up to God's judgement you say and you are all for tolerance). Then you jump into a lot of stuff about Sodom and Gomorrah and Abraham stories that I am only vaguely aware of but that I think have no logical weight outside the "God says so" position, because everything you are saying is predicated only on the assumption that stuff written in one book is all true. Your Christian God said stuff about Sodom, etc. which seems to mean he had a beef with gays, and you subscribe to the tenets and doctrines of Christianity, so you cannot accept Christianity. That's your argument. It is tantamount to a "God says so" position. So...I just have two things to say about that. First, I think it is without logic whatsoever. That's fine, you can just use the "it's faith" response to avoid that one. Second, (assuming you are an American citizen) there is a separation of Church and State in this country, so  I hope you agree that since your argument is based entirely on religious grounds, you should be doing anything to block legislation which grants gays more freedoms, such as to marry, adopt children, and maybe a few more basic ones like freedom from getting their @$$es kicked in high school. Incidently, how do you respond to my statement that the chances of there being a Christian god who has a problem with gays is infintessimily neglible? Oh, oh (now I'm getting excited), what do you think of this analogy I came up with to differeniate atheists, believers, and agnostics? Three guys are standing outside of a room, none of whom have ever been in there and thus have never seen what is in there. The atheist says, "Man, I am totally sure there is nothing in that room. It is totally empty." The believer says, "Dude, I am totally sure what is exactly in that room. There is a green elephant swimming in a vat of four inch deep battery acid. Cool, huh?" The agnostic says, "What? How the heck should I know what's in that room? I've never been in there." Now, tell me, if you were standing there and observing these three, whose arrogance would you laugh at and you would you say to, "Hey buddy, what you said makes sense. I dig it."?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 08:40 AM on October 14, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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shoot, I had some typos. I meant, "you SHOULD NOT do anything to block legislation..." if yoy agree with separation of Church and State


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 08:45 AM on October 14, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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ok, first of all the whole sodom thing was a tangent me and dsadevil got off on, it has nothing to do with my arguement against homosexuality.  as for your analogy, you make it out to be that there is no proof one way or the other, when you know God, and are in close fellowship with him, you see his fingerprints everywhere, on all of nature, on people, and in my own heart, it is hard to explain, it is not just faith alone, I have seen miracles worked in my life and have experienced God speaking to my heart, this is not mearly making up some stuff because you dont want to believe in nothing.  Most people have very hostile feelings towards this analogy, but it is like going around your whole life with your eyes shut, then when you finally open them, there is no way you could possibly explain what its like to everyone who is still shutting their eyes.


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People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:42 PM on October 14, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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sakata,
you say "when you know God, and are in close fellowship with him, you see his fingerprints everywhere, on all of nature, on people, and in my own heart", you are putting forth the teleological argument, "or "design argument" for God. It's a pretty good one, but doesn't hold up. essentially, it says, "look at the world, it obviously works so well, with animals, and people, and water for them to drink and air for them to breath. the chances of life starting, and then reaching this advanced a level, is so ridiculously low. it must be created by an entity with a purpose and a plan. an analogy would be if you were walking along the beach and found a watch in the sand. even if you had never seen a watch, you would have good reason to suspect it was 'man-made', or created with intelligent purpose, because of the gears, etc. that work in unison so perfectly to have a function." well, like i said, that sounds good, but does not flow logically for two reasons, both I believe, demonstrated by David Hume. First, the analogy's validity is suspect. the world does not necessarily work like a "watch". It can also be seen as a fully functioning organism, from our point of view looking from the inside. if it is like an organism, then it is not necessarily man-made, or created with an intelligent purpose, and although you can then say the world is like a life created by God, you can see how that is a circular argument ("organisms are created by god, and u can see this obviously because the world is like an organism, which is itself created by God"). Second, there is the "infinite worlds" hypothesis, which states that there was no beginning of time, but rather an infinite chain of worlds coming in and out of existence without beginning or end, and this in an infinite succession (as with any set of infinite variables), there is sure to be a world eventually that looks and works so perfectly and seemingly purposefully as is the one we percieve we are in now. Now you may say, as Aquinas did so erroneously, that how could there be no beginning, no cause?! No, there must be a first cause, and that must be God (what Aristotle called the "unmoved mover"). But I may ask you, how is it any harder to believe in a universe that is infinite and has no beginning, than it is to believe in an entity (God) that is infinite and has no beginning? There is no logical reason to presume one over the other. Also, even if there is "evidence" in the world for a transcendental being (which i think I have just shown there isn't), you still haven't explained why that being is necessarily a Christian God who ha a beef with gays. Because one book says so??? Finally, you used the word "miracle". I think this is a very misconceived word. Why is a miracle, for example, if a plane crashes and your loved one is the only one who "miracuously" survives? I hear people use the word for events like this all the time. Who is it a "miracle" for? You maybe. Not the families of the other 226 passengers who burned to death. Isn't that a bit egocentric? Please answer all of this; I am sorry, I wrote a lot.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 06:03 AM on October 15, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Your first argument about the world as an organism is completely invalid.  You say that the world is figuratively "like" an organism, thus denoting some similar traits that can be compared on two completely different levels.  But then you proceed, "organisms are created by god, and u can see this obviously because the world is like an organism, which is itself created by God" and you forget the similie, the "like", and make it literal.  It's pretty obvious that the world can not be classified anywhere in the same realm as an organism except with the aide of an extended metaphor, therefore your comparisons on literal level, the characteristics of an organism, cannot be applied to  the world, since their relationship is purely symbolistic.  You also never stated why the watch example didn't work, it just didn't.  You worded it as "it can also be seen as an organism."  You are in direct conflict with the sentence before, you are stating that both comparisons, the watch and the organism, are valid, but one proves the inexistence.  Metaphors don't hold any weight.  

Second, the theory that "an infinite chain of worlds coming in and out of existence without beginning or end, and this in an infinite succession (as with any set of infinite variables)..." is just as much improvable and a theory as the existence of God, the very thing you are trying to disprove.  Don't use proof as your primary weapon when you yourself have none.  You cannot prove your theory of infinite worlds without beginning or end anymore than I can prove the existance of God.  

And I think that everyone whether they lost a loved one in the plane or whatever, would consider the survival of one out of 226, a "miracle".  You don't even need to use the word in a religious context, it means the same to atheists and agnostics;  a desired outcome through seemingly impossible odds.  It has nothing to do with egos.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 11:57 AM on October 15, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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You didn't get it. I am not trying to PROVE anything. I am agnostic, not atheist. I showed that a person can JUST AS EASILY see the world like an organism as it can like a watch, pointing out that the "design theory" is based on a perspective that is not a NECESSARY conclusion logically. I am trying to show that a person must just arbitrarily CHOOSE to see it as the product of an intelligent mind. I was criticizing her logical leap from seeing "evidence" of intelligence and purpose to believing in a God. I am not out to prove their is a God. I am only trying to show how ridiculous it is to BELIEVE in God. I don't BELIEVE there is no God. I say I DON"T KNOW. I think that is the only honest position to take on the matter. Same goes for the "infinite world hypothesis". I do not believe there is an infinite chain of worlds necessarily. I am just saying it is just as likely as an infinite entity. My point is basically this. There is no basis for a belief in God at the exclusion of other equally possible explanations, and even if there was, how could one possibly believe in something as specific as a Christian God who has a problem with gays? I hope I have better articulated my argument, and you see what I am really trying to say.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:58 AM on October 16, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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also, you criticized my use of the word "miracle". of course people use the word a lot without religious meaning, when they are just saying casually, "man, he was lucky." but she was saying she sees God's fingerprints everywhere, and that she has "seen miracles worked in [her] life and have experienced God speaking to [her] heart" Isn't it a cheap attack at my argument when I was just using the term in the way she was obviously using it in the context of her response? she was obviously using "miracle" as an act of God. In that sense, I think it is egotistical to think u know for certain that one person was spared for "some unknown special reason" while 226 people were just cannon fodder (oh no, that's right, God wanted them to come to Heaven early for another special unknown reason...)


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:13 AM on October 16, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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It is a 'miracle' that gay people are not killed every day.  Hate crimes are up a bunch!  Why shouldn't people be accepted because they like their same sex?  Im not discriminating against you, sakata, for believing in God and not mother Nature.  I TOLERATE and ACCEPT that.  This is because even though your beliefs and culture is different than mine, i think you are an equal, good person.  And what your basically saying is that people that are different from you should not be accepted.  Oh know, everyone in this world except for you, my queen, is outcast!  awww,


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 7:49 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Gotcha...sorry about the misinterpretation


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 03:25 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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Sakata:  Thanks for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.  When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.  I do need some advice from you, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.  In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

Leviticus 25:44 states that I may indeed posses slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.  A friend of mine claims this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.  Can you clarify?  Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the sabbath.  Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.  Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feel that even though eating shellfish is an abomination as stated in Leviticus 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.  I don't agree.  Can you settle this?

Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight.  I have to admit I wear reading glasses.  Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is their some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27.  How should they die?

I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm.  He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).  He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot.  Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them as stated in Leviticus 24:10-16?  Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do people who sleep with their in-laws as stated in Leviticus 20:14?

I know you have studied these things, so I am confident you can help.  Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 02:43 AM on October 21, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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Guest:
Whoever you are, you are my hero. Really. It is my opinion that the Bible is a bunch of #@$%. I respect basic Christian tenets, like charity, compassion, etc., but the book itself has for me as much legitimacy as Barney the Purple Dinosaur, and is more annoying. Im wonder also how Christians see themselves as teh only moral voice of religion. for example, when gay rights activists (I hate to make it sounds like this is the only cause I care about, but I just started to acknowledge stuff/come out 1 year ago and just happen to learning some of this stuff now) in hawaii were pushing for gay marriage, and leaders of that state's Mormon Church came forward stating they basically represented the voice fo religion in the state, and a Buddhist sect stepped up and was like, actually there are a heck of a lot more of us in hawaii and we have no problem with it, so $#W@@$%. anyways, is it true also that the Bible says the sun revolves around the earth? someone told me that some passage with Solomon suggests this.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:12 AM on October 21, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Guest:

It seems that all of your biblical sources are from the 1st 3 or 4 books of the old testament.  If you'll notice these are not the laws of God, these are ancient Jewish laws that were refuted and abolished by Jesus.  They are not to be taken literally, in your argument you are not criticizing Christians.  Sorry, the average Christian is going to read over the 1st few lines of your post and move on, cause they've heard it a thousand times.  The only people whose beliefs youre insulting are the hardcore fundamentalists, it has nothing to do with me, a logical christian with some degree of discernment.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 09:46 AM on October 21, 2002 | IP
mrmazet

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I haven't read through this entire page, so I might be repeating someone else.

Seperation of church and state.

Whether your religion says it's ethical/moral or not is irrelivent. The country (claims to) not base laws on religion and to treat all equaly.
 


Posts: 122 | Posted: 4:01 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Read the entire page.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 4:09 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Yeah, sorry guest, you did a lot of research for nothing, because you didnt make one valid point, maybe you should look into Old testiment vs. New Testiment law next time you have that much free time on your hands.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 10:34 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Quote from AlexanderTheGreat at 09:12 AM on October 21, 2002 :
someone told me that some passage with Solomon suggests this.


Sorry, but last time I checked there is no book of Solomon in the Bible, but I am sure your friend knew exactly what he was talking about anyway...





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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 10:39 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
    
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