PRO

Where Your Ideas can change Minds

Please visit our new forum at

http://www.4forums.com

CON


YouDebate.com Forum
» back to YouDebate.com
Register | Profile | Log In | Lost Password | Active Users | Help | Board Rules | Search | FAQ |
Custom Search
» You are not logged in.   log in | register

  YouDebate.com Forum
   Gay Rights Debates
     Homosexuality and the Bible

Topic Jump
Next »
Multiple pages for this topic [ 1 2 ]
Forum moderated by: admin
    

    
LuckyGal

|      |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Valerie Martinez,

I know this was addressed on a different thread, but I wanted to separate the religious from the biological debate.

True Christinas would never claim that gays are child molesters either, that it not teaching the love of God. We as true Christians must tell others that lying is not the way of God.


Granted there are extremist Christians out there that adhere to the Religious Right, a group that does put out blanket generalizations that turn out to not be completely true, but it does not make what it is that they are going after any less wrong. It is not true that all homosexuals are child molesters, as the Religious Right says, and as Christians they should know better that to lay such a claim as a truth. Christians are supposed to adhere to the teachings in the Bible, and the Bible does clearly state that homosexuality is wrong.

Leviticus 18:22 [NIV]
“Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”

Leviticus 20:13 [NIV]
“If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

Malachi 3:6 [NIV]
"I the LORD do not change.”

The Hebrew word for “lie” in Leviticus 18:22 is Shakab (Strong’s #7901), with refers to “to lie” as in “sexual relations.” And because one’s sexuality is centered on one’s sexual desires and resulting sexual activity, this verse effectively condemns homosexuality in totality. In addition, the Hebrew word for “detestable” is Tow`ebah (Strong’s #844), which means “a disgusting thing” and “ethical wickedness.” Thus, Leviticus contains both the personal and legal view of God. Leviticus 20:13 repeats what Leviticus 18:22 states, only this time the Mosaic mandate for punishment by death is added. Further, to show that what is stated in Leviticus 18:22 would not change in the New Testament, Malachi 3:6 states that God does not change, which includes how he sees/perceives things, as in seeing homosexual acts as “detestable” [NIV].  But one should note that the Mosaic Law has been replaced by the New Testament Law of Grace.

Romans 1 [NIV]
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Romans 1:26-27 talks about how people transitioned from heterosexuality to homosexuality. Here the Apostle Paul refers to homosexuality as “shameful lusts” [NIV], “degrading passions,” [NASB], or “vile affections” [KJV]. The first Greek word used to describe homosexuality is Atimia (Strong’s #819), which means “dishonour, ignominy, disgrace.” And the second Greek word used to describe homosexuality here is Pathos (Strong’s #3806), which means “a feeling which the mind suffers” as in “emotion, passion.” Thus, when the Apostle Paul negatively refers to homosexuality, he is not just referring to the sexual action of it, but the mental and emotional aspects of it as well.

Genesis 19 [NIV]
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Jude 1:7 [NIV]
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.

Jude 1:7 states that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah practiced “sexual immorality and perversion” [NIV]. This clearly includes, but is not limited to, the practice of homosexuality in Sodom and Gomorrah. This is because the only Biblical account given of what was happening in Sodom and Gomorrah was centered on men coming and demanding sex with the two angels visiting Lot’s house (Genesis 19:1-12).
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 3:15 PM on March 24, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

The one main point about this religious right is that they are following their own beleifs and the Bible which guides them through life.  The Bible makes the decisions for people.  They only think their way is correct because that is how they have come to know life.  By their religion, they are not able to come to any other conclusion.

And many of these interpertations of the meaning of the words is skewed towards the religious right.  Homosexuality was not looked upon as a disgrace, but as an attraction of the human body.  The Greeks were tolerant, not hateful of the subject.  They felt that it was the admiration of a body and tolerated the issue.

These remarks here are also somewhat skewed from actuality.  

Lets start here:

"Genesis 19 [NIV]
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

This was never said.  The Hebrew word Yadha meant "to know".  It was used throughout the bible.  In this case, it meant to have sex with.  The towns people were there to rape their enemies, which was an extremely common use of humility and torture.   Also, what about Ezekiel 16:48-50?  Homosexuality is not mentioned.  But wasn't that the reason why they were killed? Looking at this, they were killed not because of their homosexual behavior, but for their criminal and sinful acts.

Also the use of Leviticus can not be properly used by the religious right.  It is a form of a ritual manual for Israel priests.  If you are going to use this as your defense, then you also endorse polygamy among many other rules.  Why does the religious right choose one or two lines and get rid of the rest?

Also, in Romans 1:26-27, Paul was talking about homosexual acts, not homosexuals.  The only way to know one was a homosexual was by their behavior.  For all we know, Jesus could have been homosexual.  He just chose not act upon his feelings.  He never condemned this behavior.  Why? Could Paul have been referring to those heterosexuals who chose to act upon homosexual behavior and not homosexaulity?  Maybe.

In order to fully understand the religious right we would need answers to these questions, which no one has been able to produce.   They have only been able to produce skewed interpertations.

Taking verses out of context to support your view is not the way to defend your position.  

Also, this is what many people in the Christian community are told.  If they had been told the truth about these verses, then I am sure their opinions on whether or not GOD condemned homosexuality would be more sound.



(Edited by ffaldo 3/26/2004 at 1:17 PM).
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 03:02 AM on March 26, 2004 | IP
LuckyGal

|      |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

This was never said. The Hebrew word Yadha meant "to know". It was used throughout the bible. In this case, it meant to have sex with. The towns people were there to rape their enemies, which was an extremely common use of humility and torture.


There is nothing in the verse indicating they considered the visiting angels enemies. The only meaning expressed in these verses is that the men wanted to have sex with the angels.

Also the use of Leviticus can not be properly used by the religious right. It is a form of a ritual manual for Israel priests. If you are going to use this as your defense, then you also endorse polygamy among many other rules. Why does the religious right choose one or two lines and get rid of the rest?


Leviticus 18:22 [NIV]
“Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”

The Hebrew word for “detestable” is Tow`ebah (Strong’s #844), which means “a disgusting thing” and “ethical wickedness.”

In calling homosexuality "a disgusting thing," God is expressing his personal view of homosexuality and using it as the basis for the establishment of the legal prohibition of homosexuality in the Mosaic Law. Thus, the issue is not about following Mosaic Law, but rather observing God's perspective on homosexuality.

In addition, Leviticus 18 is addressed to ALL Israelites (Leviticus 18:1-5), not exclusively priests.  

Also, what about Ezekiel 16:48-50? Homosexuality is not mentioned. But wasn't that the reason why they were killed? Looking at this, they were killed not because of their homosexual behavior, but for their criminal and sinful acts.


And also note that God considers homosexuality "detestable" (Leviticus 18:22 [NIV]) and in Ezekiel 16:50 God says Sodom "did detestable things before me."

Also, in Romans 1:26-27, Paul was talking about homosexual acts, not homosexuals.

First, because one’s sexuality is centered on one’s sexual desires and resulting sexual activity, this verse effectively condemns homosexuality in totality. It makes no sense to say that God condemns homosexual acts or sex while not condemning desires for homosexual sex or homosexual love.

Second, the Greek terms used to describe homosexuality do refer to more than homosexual sex acts:

Here the Apostle Paul refers to homosexuality as “shameful lusts” [NIV], “degrading passions,” [NASB], or “vile affections” [KJV]. The first Greek word used to describe homosexuality is Atimia (Strong’s #819), which means “dishonour, ignominy, disgrace.” And the second Greek word used to describe homosexuality here is Pathos (Strong’s #3806), which means “a feeling which the mind suffers” as in “emotion, passion.” Thus, when the Apostle Paul negatively refers to homosexuality, he is not just referring to the sexual action of it, but the mental and emotional aspects of it as well.


Could Paul have been referring to those heterosexuals who chose to act upon homosexual behavior and not homosexaulity?


The premise you propose is not contained within the verses. Paul only made one general reference to homosexuality.

Further, Paul would be contradicting himself if he condemned homosexuality in one instance while not condemning it under another.

For all we know, Jesus could have been homosexual. He just chose not act upon his feelings.


Your argument here is basically an "argument from ignorance," which a logical fallacy. The burden of proof is on you to prove that he was a homosexual. "Could be" arguments prove nothing.

Beyond that, if Christ is God incarnate, then he "detested" [NIV] homosexuality (ref. Leviticus 18:22).

He never condemned this behavior.


And he never approved of it either.

Christ said the Jews must obey the Mosaic Law (Matthew 23:1-3) and homosexuality is against the Mosaic Law (Leviticus 18:22). Therefore, Christ would not have approved of homosexuality, otherwise he would have contradicted himself in approving violating the Mosaic Law while saying the Jews must obey it.

Taking verses out of context to support your view is not the way to defend your position.


No, you are the one who is misquoting and adding to Scripture here.
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 01:52 AM on March 27, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

There is nothing in the verse indicating they considered the visiting angels enemies. The only meaning expressed in these verses is that the men wanted to have sex with the angels.


[NIV] But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

"Get out of our way!" the men of Sodom replied. They said, "This fellow came here as an outsider. Now he wants to act like a judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept trying to force Lot to open the door. Then they moved forward to break it down.

“We are going to destroy this place. There has been a great cry to the Lord against the people of this city. So he has sent us to destroy it."

The “angels” were clearly sent there to abolish the citizens of the city.  Reading the entire chapter we can see that the men knew of the reasons for the angels being within the city.  At the time, as history has told us, kings and men used homosexual acts as their way of conquering.   It says that the men wanted to have sex with them, a homosexual behavior or act, but it did not state the fact of homosexuality.  Many times yourself you have argued that homosexual behavior does not mean a person is homosexual.

eviticus 18:22 [NIV]
“Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”

The Hebrew word for “detestable” is Tow`ebah (Strong’s #844), which means “a disgusting thing” and “ethical wickedness.” .  


In calling homosexuality "a disgusting thing," God is expressing his personal view of homosexuality and using it as the basis for the establishment of the legal prohibition of homosexuality in the Mosaic Law. Thus, the issue is not about following Mosaic Law, but rather observing God's perspective on homosexuality.

In addition, Leviticus 18 is addressed to ALL Israelites (Leviticus 18:1-5), not exclusively priests.


Yes this is one interpretation of the verse.  This verse is not clear in its entirety.  The only time this is used is when it is need to back up your beliefs.  Words have been added and taken away within this verse.  It is not very clear that it actually condemns homosexuality.  Also in the Hebrew version of the bible there was no word for homosexual.  The term homosexual was said to be coined by Karl Maria Kertenby.  So, how could someone condemn homosexuality if there was no such word.  However, there was homosexual behavior.  This is what is being described here.

I will slide on the Leviticus being only for Israeli priests.  However, the rules outlined within that verse are not followed.  

And also note that God considers homosexuality "detestable" (Leviticus 18:22 [NIV]) and in Ezekiel 16:50 God says Sodom "did detestable things before me."



Let’s bring in what the verse actually said:

[NIV]
47 You not only walked in their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they. 48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD , your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done.
49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me.

Throughout these few verses, he was referring to a female.  He was referring to the deplorable or “detestable” acts of her SISTERS!  One line does not work alone in this case.  NOWHERE is homosexual behavior, acts or anything of the kind mentioned.  

First, because one’s sexuality is centered on one’s sexual desires and resulting sexual activity, this verse effectively condemns homosexuality in totality. It makes no sense to say that God condemns homosexual acts or sex while not condemning desires for homosexual sex or homosexual love.

Second, the Greek terms used to describe homosexuality do refer to more than homosexual sex acts:


I partially agree with you on this one.  Yes homosexual attractions may cause homosexual behavior.  But not all homosexual behavior in the era was an attraction.  As I have mentioned it was common practice for kings and other lords to use this behavior to show that they had conquered.  It was not for the sexual pleasure or anything of the sort, but it was for the degrading of its enemy.   There are several interpretations of what Paul actually was referring to, so it is really unknown what the actual meaning was.  From reading all of the verses within Romans 16, he describes homosexual behavior by heterosexuals.  These are heterosexuals who go beyond their “natural state”.    

Also the Greek terms you are referring to are translations used for the Bible.  

Atimia in the KJV and NIV meant shame, dishonor….  This term in fact describes sexual-acts, not attractions.  You do not need an attraction to have a sexual behavior.  Paul used this towards the monogamous hatred by the Greeks in their temple worships where Orgies were common.  

However Pathos did refer to attraction.  But this attraction does not come without other factors.  This would mean in order for this attraction something would have to cause this attraction, which could be homosexual behavior.  Without this homosexual behavior, an attraction could not occur.  This is not extremely sound, but a possible explanation.

Your argument here is basically an "argument from ignorance," which a logical fallacy. The burden of proof is on you to prove that he was a homosexual. "Could be" arguments prove nothing.

Beyond that, if Christ is God incarnate, then he "detested" [NIV] homosexuality (ref. Leviticus 18:22).


I said this out of spite.  It was not mean to hold up my argument.  I will go with you on your argument that if God condemned homosexual behavior, then Jesus would.  But I have yet to see where God condemned homosexuality.

And he never approved of it either.

Christ said the Jews must obey the Mosaic Law (Matthew 23:1-3) and homosexuality is against the Mosaic Law (Leviticus 18:22). Therefore, Christ would not have approved of homosexuality, otherwise he would have contradicted himself in approving violating the Mosaic Law while saying the Jews must obey it.


You have shown how Jesus would have condemned homosexuality through the Mosaic Law.  However, how many Christians or any other religious group following the scriptures no longer follow the Mosaic Law.  If they do not follow the law, why do they preach it?  

No, you are the one who is misquoting and adding to Scripture here.


I have not misquoted.  You have used one or two lines without taking into context the two or three before and after which “shoot” down your views.  I have also not added anything to the scripture.  I have read the scripture and interpreted as many on both sides of the issues have.   As you can see, I have not taken these out of context, YOU HAVE!  

Can you please show me the scripture that condemns homosexuality?  I agree that they condemn homosexual behavior because of the unnatural state, but I have never seen anything regarding the feelings.  You have mentioned the use of Pathos by the Apostle Paul, but those many verses on homosexuality have not been shown to be against homosexuality itself.  



(Edited by ffaldo 3/27/2004 at 04:04 AM).
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 03:51 AM on March 27, 2004 | IP
LuckyGal

|      |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

The “angels” were clearly sent there to abolish the citizens of the city. Reading the entire chapter we can see that the men knew of the reasons for the angels being within the city.


No, the chapter does not show the men of Sodom knowing why the angels were there.

In Genesis 19:9, the men were criticizing Lot for labeling their desire to have sex with the angels as "wicked." Thus, the men were criticizing Lot for making a judgment, not the angels.

At the time, as history has told us, kings and men used homosexual acts as their way of conquering.


Again, there is nothing in the verse indicating they considered the visiting angels enemies in Sodom. The only meaning expressed in these verses is that the men wanted to have sex with the angels.

It says that the men wanted to have sex with them, a homosexual behavior or act, but it did not state the fact of homosexuality.


I did not say that they were homosexuals. The only point being made within Genesis 19 is that same-sex acts are condemned.

So, how could someone condemn homosexuality if there was no such word. However, there was homosexual behavior.


The proposition does not follow the premise. Throughout history homosexuality has occurred and just because the Bible does not use this specific term does not negate that fact within history or in the text.

And again, homosexuality is centered on the emotional desires for homosexual sex and/or acting upon those desires in homosexual acts. Conceptually you cannot divorce homosexuality and homosexual acts, so in condemning one you automatically condemn the other.

The verse does condemn homosexuality and you cannot squirm out of that fact.

I will slide on the Leviticus being only for Israeli priests.


No, Leviticus 18 is clearly addressed to all Israelites. You were incorrect so drop this arrogant attitude of saying "I'll let this slide."

Throughout these few verses, he was referring to a female. He was referring to the deplorable or “detestable” acts of her SISTERS! One line does not work alone in this case. NOWHERE is homosexual behavior, acts or anything of the kind mentioned.


God is clearly talking about Sodom in Ezekiel 16:49-50. Sodom was allegorically refered to as a sister of Jerusalem in order to compare Jerusalem’s wickedness to Sodom’s. And he said it did "detestable acts" and God considers homosexual acts "detestable."

The only thing you are demonstrating by this argument is how much you are willing to twist scripture to fit your viewpoint.

From reading all of the verses within Romans 16, he describes homosexual behavior by heterosexuals. These are heterosexuals who go beyond their “natural state”.


No, you are once again inserting this premise into Scripture. Nowhere is there a clause specifying that it only applies to heterosexuals who unnaturally change. Again, Paul made one general negative statement of homosexuality and that was it.

I said this out of spite. It was not mean to hold up my argument.


You have a bad habit of doing this. Please stop.

However, how many Christians or any other religious group following the scriptures no longer
follow the Mosaic Law. If they do not follow the law, why do they preach it?


Again, Leviticus 18:22 expresses both God's perspective on homosexuality and his Mosaic legal prohibition on homosexuality.

So one could completely ignore Mosaic Law and this verse would still be relevant.

I agree that they condemn homosexual behavior because of the unnatural state, but I have never seen anything regarding the feelings.


No, Pathos (Strong’s #3806) means “a feeling which the mind suffers” as in “emotion, passion.” This clearly includes emotion.

As you can see, I have not taken these out of context, YOU HAVE!


No, you have not proven anything within what you have presented.

Can you please show me the scripture that condemns homosexuality?


I have. But you are more concerned with wiggling and squirming out of what they say to acknowledge what they say.

I am not a Christian, so my beliefs do not stand in the way.


You sound extremely arrogant here. It is an academic fact that nobody is without bias. And you being intellectually dishonest by not acknowledging your pro-homosexual bias.

(Edited by LuckyGal 3/27/2004 at 06:47 AM).
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 06:40 AM on March 27, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

How much "love" did God have for homosexuals?  If He loved them then He would have said they coud enter the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit  the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither  fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such  were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified,  but you were justified  in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

He does love the converts back to the truth. Of course, if you
read Romans 9 you will find that the vessels of mercy are the homosexuals that return to the truth and the vessels for common use were made not to return to the truth.

(Edited by unworthy servant 3/27/2004 at 08:13 AM).


-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 08:11 AM on March 27, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

No, the chapter does not show the men of Sodom knowing why the angels were there.

In Genesis 19:9, the men were criticizing Lot for labeling their desire to have sex with the angels as "wicked." Thus, the men were criticizing Lot for making a judgment, not the angels.


 And again, homosexuality is centered on the emotional desires for homosexual sex and/or acting upon those desires in homosexual acts. Conceptually you cannot divorce homosexuality and homosexual acts, so in condemning one you automatically condemn the other.

The verse does condemn homosexuality and you cannot squirm out of that fact.


Once again YOU are using your religious bias towards the situation.  I am not using this a bias towards my side.  I am completely open to your views on the matter.  But reading through this and the logic behind your views, it is not clear that he condemned homosexuality because he condemned homosexual behavior.  Like I have said, if anyone had a homosexual attraction without acting upon these attractions, have they sinned?  No one knows if they have these attractions without the persons acting upon the attractions.  I do agree with you that in the cases where homosexual acts did occur he did condemn their activities and the thoughts and feeling behind them as well.  Throughout the Bible I have not seen where he condemned ONLY homosexuality.  It is always when homosexual acts have occurred.  

No, Leviticus 18 is clearly addressed to all Israelites. You were incorrect so drop this arrogant attitude of saying "I'll let this slide."


That is what I said.  If you had an open mind and were able to understand what I was saying, I was AGREEING with you.  I said that I will let [MY VIEWPOINT] slide.  You once again took this out of context to support your view.

 God is clearly talking about Sodom in Ezekiel 16:49-50. Sodom was allegorically refered to as a sister of Jerusalem in order to compare Jerusalem’s wickedness to Sodom’s. And he said it did "detestable acts" and God considers homosexual acts "detestable."


Were homosexual acts the only “DETESTABLE” acts performed by men?  They indeed were not.  The homosexual acts were not the ONLY detestable acts that GOD is referring to.  They were not condemned solely on this one homosexual act.  I did go back through and read this several times.  You are right that the men were not aware of why these men or angels were in Sodomn.  However the men were going to rape these men as they were visiting a town that the men of Sodomn believed they did not belong to.  Once again I go back to where in several instances throughout history, raping of the enemy was common. If you go back and see what Sodomny really is, it does not only consist of sexual behaviors.  Sodomny is a spiritual pride, uncaring, haughty, sexual immorality, and violent.  God condemned all of these acts that were intertwined, not only homosexuality.  

I have seen this argument over and over again.  You are using ONE part of their actions without bringing all of the other.  Once again you are taking away all that was said in the Scripture to support your view.

You have a bad habit of doing this. Please stop.


I have done this once.

 Again, Leviticus 18:22 expresses both God's perspective on homosexuality and his Mosaic legal prohibition on homosexuality.

So one could completely ignore Mosaic Law and this verse would still be relevant.


Okay I understand now what you are trying to get at.  However it is supported by your argument that if god condemned homosexual acts he condemned the attraction as well.  

“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a
woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall
surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

He is clearly stating that A MAN should not have sex with another MAN as he WOULD with a women.  Once again he is mentioning heterosexuals who perform homosexual acts.   In turn, yes, he is also condemning their attractions.  However, if no one performed these acts and still had the attraction would he have to killed?  No one has any way of knowing of these thoughts unless he acts upon them.  Yes he could just tell someone, but during this time it was more than likely he would keep them preserved.

Also if the Christian are no longer under the law they cannot follow these words of GOD.  Yes GOD spoke of these laws, but it is not relevant in today’s society.


No, Pathos (Strong’s #3806) means “a feeling which the mind suffers” as in “emotion, passion.” This clearly includes emotion.


Here is what I wrote about Pathos.  

However Pathos did refer to attraction.  But this attraction does not come without other factors.  This would mean in order for this attraction something would have to cause this attraction, which could be homosexual behavior.  Without this homosexual behavior, an attraction could not occur.  This is not extremely sound, but a possible explanation.

Once again you have taken my views out of context.  I was AGREEING with you.  It was you who took this out of context to ONLY support YOUR view.  Be happy that I am willing to be so open minded on the subject.  I am only defending my viewpoint.  I’m not disregarding any of your statements.

I have. But you are more concerned with wiggling and squirming out of what they say to acknowledge what they say.


I have not wiggled or squirmed out of anything.  You have your interpretation and I have my interpretation.  Just because my interpretation is not the same as yours does not make yours right.  And once again, you have yet to show me where it GOD condemns only homosexuality.  

You sound extremely arrogant here. It is an academic fact that nobody is without bias. And you being intellectually dishonest by not acknowledging your pro-homosexual bias.


Of course everyone has bias.  You are extremely biased towards the interpretations that you have.  I am extremely biased towards the interpretations that I have.  We have to come to some middle ground here.  You need to quit taking everything that I say and twist around your view.  You have consistently done this.

r do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit  the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither  fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


Once again there was no word to describe homosexuals.  This was translated at a later date.  In this passage it was those homosexual offenders who were not to enter the Kingdom of God.  Yes they did have attractions and performed homosexual acts, but where is it said that those who had only homosexual attractions and had relationships with women were condemned.  Nowhere does it state this.


Also if you are going to use Leviticus as God's word,

"Do not bear hatred for anyone. (Leviticus 19:17)"

It is up to God to judge.  No one else.  You should follow what he preaches.  

(Edited by ffaldo 3/27/2004 at 6:16 PM).
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 1:51 PM on March 27, 2004 | IP
Father of a gay son

|     |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

This does seem like an intersting thread. I prefer to stay here. But we shouldn't let the bible get in the way of science. People have the right to believe what they want, but we shoudn't use religion as scientific fact.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 12:59 PM on March 29, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Yes, there are some things in the bible that are a little too hard to follow. Eating pork and wearing garments of the same cloth do seem like silly rules, but Jesus also said in Matthew that remarying after divorce is considered adultery but we don't see all churches following that. I don't believe homosexuality is a sin, but I still believe there is a God. Take the bible as a matter of faith, don't misuse it for something else like others do like bashing gays.
 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 2:21 PM on March 29, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Unworthy Servant,

this is the thread to post on if you want to debate with ffaldo about religous held beliefs.
 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 12:35 PM on April 7, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Christians are to be very closed minded to homosexuals and anitchrist propagranda.


Completely understandable, depending on how one views Christianity.

That is your opinion.


That is what the majority is fighting for.  How is that an opinion?

I shouldn't tell them that they are excluded from the kingdom of heaven by their imitating the unrighteous?


No that is your opinion.

I shouldn't tell children that are homosexuals that their lifestyle is a grief, destruction and shame to righteous parents?


No that is your opinion.

Finally, I shouldn't correct them and to encourage them to enter the kingdom of heaven?


No.  Those are your opinions.

Raise YOUR CHILDREN how you see fit.  But you have no right to raise the children of other RIGHTEOUS PARENTS.  If they are righteous, they will "CORRECT" their own children's views.

And please do not reiterate Bible verses. God did not say homosexuals.  There was no word for homosexuals when the Bible was written, it was added by people like you, and therefore was not the word of God.  It is the word of humans.  I really wish you would understand this.
Make up you mind.  I know it is hard for doubleminded people but give it a shot.  James 1:8being a double-minded man, unstable  in all his ways.


And it is obvious that close-minded Bible twisters can twist human words as well.  

I said human form in the first quote, not human.

I said Spirit and Jesus in the second quote, consistent with the first.

They are unrighteous.


And heterosexuals aren't?  There are more than likely some heterosexuals out there who are unrighteous as well.  They can access marriage rights.  Therefore, unrighteous humans can access those rights.  Your logic doesn't fit here either.  On the same note, it proves my argument.

Matthew 18: 21-22 "Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."

And you follow the teachings of Jesus?


Why is it alright to use what homosexuals have helped to provide to you, but then contradict that statement and say they do not deserve rights [privelages]?


"The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. "

But you are controlled by their sinful nature.  How do you get to Church? On public roads.  Who has helped provide those roads?  Homosexuals.   You have no other choice, unless you live forever within the Church and never drive on America's roads.  And I use roads more as a metaphor for other priveleges granted to you.

(Edited by ffaldo 4/7/2004 at 11:13 PM).

(Edited by ffaldo 4/7/2004 at 11:18 PM).
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 11:06 PM on April 7, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Your argument is, that because homosexuals are unrighteous, they should not have access to the rights of marriage.  I'm not talking about marriage, I'm talking about the rights of marriage.  The 1000 or so legal benefits.

Here, according to interpreters of the Bible like yourself, is a list of unrighteous sins:

Adultery
Fornication (sex without marriage)
Incest / Pedophilia
Homosexuality
Bestiality (sex with animals)
Pornography (lustful fantasies)
Prostitution / Immodesty
Murder
Abortion / Suicide
Rape
Torture / Terrorism
Abusiveness
Animal abuse
Slander (false accusation)
Theft of property
Fraud / Deception
Vow or Covenant Breaking
Not Tithing
Seduction / Selfish Manipulation
Gambling
Hoarding / Stinginess (the "evil eye")
Addiction / Drunkenness
Carousing / Brawling
Lying / Boasting
Filthy talk / Profanity
Gossiping
Gluttony
Slothfulness
Sedition / Treason
Disobedient to Parents
Disrespectful of Elders
Revenge / Spite
Backbiting (sowing discord among brethren)
Unauthorized ("sitting in") Judgment/Prejudicial Acts
Haughty Eyes (arrogance)
Vainly using the Holy Name
Idolatry / Worship of other gods (demons)
Using Unfit Symbols / Marking the flesh
Sorcery / Witchcraft
Spirit Medium / Channeling
Astrology
Religious Deception
Sabbath Breaking
Disregard for Kosher Instructions
Grumbling (complaining against G-d)
Weariness with Righteousness
Shameless Expression (without conscience) / Undignified acts
Joyless Expression (bitterness)
Ritual Uncleanness & Temple rules breaking

Of all of those unrighteous sins, homosexuals are the only ones who should not have access to the rights of marriage or any other law for that matter based on your logic?

Once a person becomes a murderer, they are forever a murderer.  Once a person commits adultery, they are forever an adulterer.  Once a person lies, they are forever a liar.  Yes they may be able to change from that point on, but their pasts have shaped their lives forever.  

And I am sure that you have done some of these things once or twice before.  Lying, slander, and prejudicial acts to name a few.  You have done this on the board if you need proof.  And to say that you lead a life without sin, goes against God.  Everyone is born a sinner.

But once they [those who have a bound faith in God] pray to Jesus and God to forgive them for their sins, they are forgiven.   God is a very forgiving man.  Unlike yourself.

Even if a person is a homosexual, they have no way of fully changing to come over to YOUR SIDE.  So why would GOD condemn those who do not have the means to change?  Why would he create a life without the ability for that person to change?  

Here is a list of religous organizations who do not feel the same as you:

American Ethical Union, American Friends Service Committee, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, Church of the Brethren, Church Women United, Dignity/USA, Episcopal Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Hadassah, WZOA, The Interfaith Alliance, Jewish Women International, National Council of Churches of Christ, USA, National Council of Jewish Women, North Georgia United Methodists, Presbyterian Church (USA), Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, Unitarian Universalist Association, United Church of Christ, United Methodist Church, Women of Reform Judaism, Young Women's Christian Association

Are you saying that the members of these religous organizations will not enter the Kingdom of God and are evil?  Or that they have GIVEN IN on the propoganda?  For such a large group of Christians and Jews, homosexuals have not had that much of an impact on personal opinion.  Homosexuals are not that powerful.  They have actually been able to see through the stereotypes of homosexuality created by individuals like yourself and come to a moral decision on what shapes a person's life.

While God's intention is obvious that heterosexuality is the norm, God also gave man free-will and the ability to progress through life.  Homosexuality is a minute part of what makes a person.  There are many other factors that shape a person's life.  So to condemn a person solely on one aspect of their personality or traits is wrong.  

So, why are you hateful of a person who has ONE trait different from you.  They are not a completely different species of humans.

(Edited by ffaldo 4/9/2004 at 01:03 AM).
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 2:05 PM on April 8, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ffaldo at 2:05 PM on April 8, 2004 :
Your argument is, that because homosexuals are unrighteous, they should not have access to the rights of marriage.  I'm not talking about marriage, I'm talking about the rights of marriage.  The 1000 or so legal benefits. . . So, why are you hateful of a person who has ONE trait different from you.  They are not a completely different species of humans.


Simple. I have the one and most important trait that sets us apart. . .  I am saved and the unrighteous/unrepentant (those who never will repent) homosexuals are not saved.

1Pe 4:18 - AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?





-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 4:05 PM on April 9, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

So you are to be hateful and not forgiving of those who sin because you are righteous?  There are many that call themselves righteous and in deed are unrighteous.  There are also those who you view as unrighteous, but are righteous in their faith and interpretation of God's word.  It works both ways.
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 12:24 AM on April 10, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ffaldo at 12:24 AM on April 10, 2004 :
So you are to be hateful and not forgiving of those who sin because you are righteous?  


Oh, the tricks of the crooked, word twisters.

Ac 13:10 - and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?

I said: "(those who never will repent) "

Sorry, but the pure are astute so I don't fall for your tricks, being an antichrist.

Ps 18:26 - With the pure You show Yourself pure, And with the crooked You show Yourself astute.

Homosexuality was condemned and hated in the OT just as it is condemned and hated in the NT.  No homosexual from the beginning of time until the coming of Christ will enter the kingdom of heaven.  Only the FORMER homosexuals will enter the kingdom of heaven (1 Cor 6:11).




-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 08:23 AM on April 10, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Homosexuality was condemned and hated in the OT just as it is condemned and hated in the NT.  No homosexual from the beginning of time until the coming of Christ will enter the kingdom of heaven.  Only the FORMER homosexuals will enter the kingdom of heaven (1 Cor 6:11).


Where in the Bible does it condemn HOMOSEXUALITY?  Every description that may have been condemned ONLY consisted of HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR.  Sexual orientation did not exist in the time that the Bible was written.  No one knew of it.  So how can it be written in the Bible, when it was not known to exist?  God may have known of it to exist, as he creates everyone of us, but humans were not aware of any orientation.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Where does it mention HOMOSEXUALITY?

And what about Sodom in the Bible?  No mention of homosexuality or homosexual behavior?  Yet this is what you commonly use to show that God condmened homosexual behavior?  They never had homosexual sex, so how could he have condemned it?

" The word "sodomy" itself is something of a misnomer, since the Bible contains no mention of homosexual conduct among the residents of Sodom. That corrupt city was not destroyed because of acts of buggery but rather because its citizens were inhospitable to God's angelic messengers. Sodom was not linguistically linked with anal sex until the Middle Ages."

Then there's Leviticus 18:22
" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

No mention of homosexuality here either.

Obviously God may have condemned a heterosexual for lying with another man!  That is against nature.

Then there's Romans 1:26-27

Only mentions homosexual behavior AFTER they had abandoned GOD.  It is never said that they are condemned for this behavior, but rather for their abandonment of GOD.  It also mentions homosexuality no where.

Then there's Jude 5 which you use to rebuke Sodom:

"Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[3] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."

No mention of homosexuality here.  It mentions homosexual behavior, but in the context of what happened at Sodom and Gomorrah.

And where is the evidence that reorientation therapy actually CHANGES ones sexual orientation?  All of the evidence that tries to show change, does so by showing how someone says that they think.  How are we to know the truth of what goes on in their minds?  They have been influenced by conservative Christians like yourself into believing that the way they are is wrong.  The can still have an attraction for the same sex, but CHOOSE to be a heterosexual in society.  I have no problem with this.  If they are happier, then good.  But they should not be changing for a skewing of words by conservative Christians who RELY on MODERN translations of the Bible.  The translators have even admitted to adding and taking out words.  Who are we to believe what they wrote is the truth and not part of their own agenda and interpertation of the words of GOD?  Moreso, these translators of the Bible have COPYRIGHTED their work.  How can they take credit for God's words?  So you choose to trust the words of MAN, not GOD.

Prov 30:5-6
" "Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."


 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 12:58 PM on April 11, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

It is understandable that you are so confused being a natural man along with being an anitchrist, since God's laws are written on the faithful Christian's heart, which leaves you out.  

Tha also explain the TRUE Christian's natural revulsion of homosexuality.

Heb 8:10-12 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:  WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON  THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.  "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, `KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.  "FOR  I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND  I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

Ps 119:34 - Give me understanding, that I may observe Your law And keep it with all {my} heart.

Ps 40:8 - I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart."

Ps 37:31 -The law of his God is in his heart; His steps do not slip.

Ezr 7:10 -For Ezra had set his heart to study the law of the LORD and to practice {it,} and to teach {His} statutes and ordinances in Israel.




-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 4:50 PM on April 11, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

I am not an antichrist nor am I confused about the words of God.  I am also not a Christian, as it does not take Christianity to have faith in GOD or to understand and believe in God's will.  I do not need solely the words of God or the teachings of Jesus to have faith.  My faith is not blinded by those who try to deceive.  Your false teachings and/or misbeliefs will NEVER break my faith.

"Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so." Hebrews 6:1-3

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." Hebrews 11:3

Furthermore, I am not blinded by the works of deceivers that you choose to believe in.  Those who have added thousands upon thousands of words, taken out thousands of words, to deceive you.  It is clearly the work of Satan and you have given into his deceptive ways.  God clearly made it known that his words were not to be subject to additional words nor take away words.  I have also clearly shown to you where homosexuality was NEVER mentioned in the Bible, and the word homosexual was ADDED to the bible.  You are trusting the works of Satan and man's deceptive manners, and not what God had really said.  This does not make you a TRUE Christian under the Words of God, but a TRUE Christian under the deceptive words of man.  Gods words should be preserved by YOU and not to be influenced by others.

Again, WHERE is HOMOSEXUALITY, not possibly homosexual behavior, but HOMOSEXUALITY condemned in the Bible?  Where does it say that HOMOSEXUALITY is a sin?  I am not confused.  I have read the Bible and in any of the translations it is not mentioned. Furthermore without homosexuality being mentioned, where does it say those with that particular sexual orientation will not enter the kingdom?  Sexual orientation was not know to have existed, so how could have it been written?

"Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law." Gal 5:3

Man(including females) have picked and chosen which of GOD's laws to follow.  They accept some and forbid others.  They pick and choose which ones are relevant.  But over the thousands of years, only up until the word HOMOSEXUAL and sexual orientation was supposedly created was HOMOSEXAUL in the BIBLE.  Of all of the laws of Levitcus, homosexual behavior is the ONLY one that conservatives CHOOSE to follow in today's culture.

How can YOU pick and choose which words of Gods to follow?  It is ALL or nothing.  God clearly allows slavery, do you have a slave?  If so, why not?  So how can you say that you have taken God's laws to heart, but choose to remove some of those that you do not believe in?

"And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:19-21

I know that by having faith in God that my views are right and that by not using propganda and satanistic interpretations and translations, I will die peacefully.

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3: 14-17

Also, the times have changed greatly since the Bible was written.  Cultures have changed and reshaped interpretations of the Bible.  People of darker colored skin are now accepted into society, when once they were shunned upon by Christianity.  What sexual acts were once forbid in the Bible are now allowed and vice versa.

"And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time? Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?" Luke 12:55-57

Isn't it about time homosexuality is accepted into our culture?  It has become a part of our culture as "Race" and other issues have.   Isn't it time that conservative Christians practice what was preached?

You seem to be fine with shifting the Bible to fit the conservatives views at the point and times within culture, but unwilling to shift what YOU believe? Something that you cannot deny and have shown is that the Bible never mentions homosexuality.

No matter how much you say that they will not enter the kingdom of God, you or the satanistic translators will ever make that decision.  It is not because we are confused, but rather that you are confused on the matter.  You have taken culture and misbeliefs and turned them into God's words, which is an abonmination.  Those who take the Words of God without prejudice and without biased translation preserve the words of God and thus preserve their true symbollic meanings.  Unlike you, I do not need to rely on those who think like me to have faith.  I do not need to have the laws of God embedded in my heart.

"Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." Galations 3:11

"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Galations 3:10

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" Galation 1:8-10

"Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."  Matthew 23: 10-14

(Edited by ffaldo 4/12/2004 at 03:09 AM).
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 9:41 PM on April 11, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

ffaldo,

I just want to say that I'm very proud of you for standing up for what you believe in. Along with Father of a gay son, you and him are the two people I wish I could give a hug to. Keep up the good fight and I'll be rooting for you and Father all the way.
 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 12:34 PM on April 12, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Oh, I can judge now and in the future:

Lu 22:30 - that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Re 4:4 - Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

Re 11:16 - Show ContextAnd the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,

And in both cases the homosexuals and their supporters are out of the kingdom.

Re 22:15 - Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.


-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 5:43 PM on April 12, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

No one said that you couldn't judge.  However, your judgment isn't final nor is it the judgment of God nor is it perfect.  What you are doing is judging a HUMAN, not their BELEIFS.  What makes your beliefs superior to the other guys?  What makes you perfect if everyone with other beliefs is striving for the same thing?  Are trying to act like God?  I think so.  Whose to say that YOU will be entering the Kingdom of God?  According to my book YOU WILL NOT.  Even though you may repent your sins you continue to do them over and over.  Again, your ideas are extremely similar to those of Adolf Hitler and I doubt he is living peacefully.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

How can you properly judge people when you use the opinions and beliefs of man, NOT GOD?  God never spoke of harming homosexuals, MAN did.  Whose words are in the Bible? GOD's Words.  Where do the words being used by your people come from? MAN.
So to say anything on behalf of God is wrong.  Admit it, these are YOUR WORDS, not GOD's.  These are the works of SATAN, not GOD.

Also, how can you judge others without first realizing your own hypocricy?

""Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.  How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. " Matthew 7:1-5

I have as much of a right to judge YOU as you have to judge ME.  My faith is stronger than the hatred that you spread.  So what makes your JUDGMENT FINAL?

And in both cases the homosexuals and their supporters are out of the kingdom


It doesn't say that anywhere in my Bible.  

 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 3:36 PM on April 13, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ffaldo at 3:36 PM on April 13, 2004 :
No one said that you couldn't judge.  However, your judgment isn't final nor is it the judgment of God nor is it perfect.  What you are doing is judging a HUMAN, not their BELEIFS.  What makes your beliefs superior to the other guys?


Simple.  You and your fellow supporters of homosexuals (are you homosexual?) are preaching friendship of the world:

Jas 4:4 - You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

I have no desire to follow your worldly "friendship trail to God."













-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 5:39 PM on April 13, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ffaldo at 3:36 PM on April 13, 2004 :
No one said that you couldn't judge.  However, your judgment isn't final nor is it the judgment of God nor is it perfect.  What you are doing is judging a HUMAN, not their BELEIFS.  What makes your beliefs superior to the other guys?  What makes you perfect if everyone with other beliefs is striving for the same thing?  Are trying to act like God?  I think so.  Whose to say that YOU will be entering the Kingdom of God?  According to my book YOU WILL NOT.  Even though you may repent your sins you continue to do them over and over.  Again, your ideas are extremely similar to those of Adolf Hitler and I doubt he is living peacefully.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

How can you properly judge people when you use the opinions and beliefs of man, NOT GOD?  God never spoke of harming homosexuals, MAN did.  Whose words are in the Bible? GOD's Words.  Where do the words being used by your people come from? MAN.
So to say anything on behalf of God is wrong.  Admit it, these are YOUR WORDS, not GOD's.  These are the works of SATAN, not GOD.

Also, how can you judge others without first realizing your own hypocricy?

""Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.  How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. " Matthew 7:1-5

I have as much of a right to judge YOU as you have to judge ME.  My faith is stronger than the hatred that you spread.  So what makes your JUDGMENT FINAL?

And in both cases the homosexuals and their supporters are out of the kingdom


It doesn't say that anywhere in my Bible.  




Great post ffaldo.

Take care,
Valerie



 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 12:14 PM on April 14, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Yeah, I am sure that Valerie would be happy to give any of the unrighteous a big hug.


-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 10:38 PM on April 14, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

I do believe that the people over in Israel say that Christ is not the son of God.  That goes against the commands of God.  I obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29)


But yet you quote translations of the Bible that were create by man?  So how can you follow the commands of God when you are following the new words made by satan's works(man's works)?

Simple.  You and your fellow supporters of homosexuals (are you homosexual?) are preaching friendship of the world:


"Are you homosexual" I'm a human.  No labels needed.  

"friendship of the world" refers to material possessions and friendship with the "WORLD".  Since GOD does not exist in the WORLD, obviously you wouldn't preach FRIENDSHIP OF THE WORLD!  We are all preaching for acceptance under the judgment of GOD, not MAN or SATAN!

And because you choose to follow the words that man has created, you are already preaching FRIENDSHIP OF THE WORLD.  

As for the chapter that you have quoted here, it will be the first time that I agree with you.

There is an agenda out there full of wants.  One group wants to preserve and one wants the rights.  It is greed in both directions.
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 11:58 PM on April 14, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

[b]Quote from ffaldo at 11:58 PM on April 14, 2004 :
"Are you homosexual" I'm a human.  No labels needed.  


Ah, a homosexual antichrist.  No wonder you were so excited about promoting homosexuality.  




-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 12:35 AM on April 15, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

I never said I was a homosexual.  Again with Satan's views.
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 04:27 AM on April 17, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

So the secret weapon (false accusation of hate) didn't work and now you are upset. Once again the Scriptures make the student of the Scriptures wise


It isn't false when it is true.  It can only be one or the either.  Because you are not requesting anything other than murder or being pushed aside, it is hatred.  You are not asking them to change their behavior, you are asking them to change their entire personalities, bodies, and spirits.  You can't have it all.


(Edited by ffaldo 4/17/2004 at 04:42 AM).
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 04:32 AM on April 17, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ffaldo at 04:27 AM on April 17, 2004 :
I never said I was a homosexual.  Again with Satan's views.


Oh, but you don't deny it.  That is why you fear to sate the simple truth that you are homosexual and an antichrist to boot.  You have no creditbility "preaching".

Ps 50:16 - But to the wicked God says, "What right have you to tell of My statutes And to take My covenant in your mouth?






-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 07:43 AM on April 17, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

I don't fear anything.  A WORD does not describe me.  There is more to a person than one label.  Except for human, because that is WHAT we are.

If I call you WHITE, does that describe who you are or what you have done? NO!  If I call you a HETEROSEXUAL, does that describe who you are or what you have done? NO!

I have as much right to defend a person as you have.  My faith will always withstand your Satanic views.  My faith aids me in striking down the hatred from those who TRULY follow Satan.

Will you please just end this deabte by posting the verse in the Bible that says homosexuals are unrighteous?  Without using the revisions from Satan's works?  

YOU are in denial of the truth!  Not me.
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 02:03 AM on April 18, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ffaldo at 02:03 AM on April 18, 2004 :
I don't fear anything.  A WORD does not describe me.  There is more to a person than one label.  Except for human, because that is WHAT we are. If I call you WHITE, does that describe who you are or what you have done? NO!  If I call you a HETEROSEXUAL, does that describe who you are or what you have done? NO! I have as much right to defend a person as you have.  My faith will always withstand your Satanic views.  My faith aids me in striking down the hatred from those who TRULY follow Satan. Will you please just end this deabte by posting the verse in the Bible that says homosexuals are unrighteous?  Without using the revisions from Satan's works?  YOU are in denial of the truth!  Not me.


Let's see, you have no problem labeling me.  How many times did you try to label me as a "hater"?   You just don't want me to label you though.  Just as the homnosexuals fear "coming out of the closet" so do you along with the other unrighteous homosexuals that will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 3     3:19"This is the judgment, that the R150 Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their R151 deeds were evil.

3:20"For R152 everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

3:21"But he who practices R153 the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Quote from ffaldo at 04:48 AM on April 17, 2004 :
Why are beliefs false?  Yours is a belief just as much as the other religions are beliefs?  What makes your beliefs perfect and the only religion?  Because a book wrote by Christians and Satan says so?


Now you want to say the Scriptures are written by Satan.  They were written by the apostles.  Are the  apostles Satan, also?




-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 08:56 AM on April 18, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Now you want to say the Scriptures are written by Satan.  They were written by the apostles.  Are the  apostles Satan, also?


The versions of the Bible that YOU read are not written by the Apostles.  Unless of course an apostle came to you with a handwritten copy in English!

The Bible has been twisted and changed as culture and society changes.  It is clear by all of the "modern" words used in the revised versions of the Bible.  The same ones that you quote from. If people would quit tampering and changing words in the Bible, it could be closer to the original writings.  The fact that the modern versions of the Bible are copyrighted should make this clear.  How can someone copyright something that doesn't belong to anyone but God?  They were granted copyright because it was their WORD, not GOD's.  These men have twisted words to what THEY believe is GOD's vision and for their own religious propoganda (Satanic views), not the actual view of God.  Only GOD is fully aware of his own vision.

And what does it matter if someone comes "out of the closet" or not.  They still have homosexual traits either way and God will not change his judgement if they choose to harbor their feelings.  There is nothing wrong with that at all.  It is a fear of ridicule in an unwelcoming society, not GOD.  God knows that they have homosexual feelings, and he is the ONLY one who needs to know.

How many times did you try to label me as a "hater"?


Many times.  Your actions are evidence enough.

If you were to label a person as a "homosexual" how would you describe that person?  Is that the case for EVERY "homosexual"?

will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


That's for God to decide.  He is not as blinded by other's views as you are.
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 02:37 AM on April 19, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

|     |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ffaldo at 02:37 AM on April 19, 2004 :
Many times.  Your actions are evidence enough.


Thanks for the MANY blessing!

Matt 5:11-12" Blessed are you when people insult  you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Luke 6:22-23 "Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. "Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.

Thanks for the blessings!

The only detail is will enter the kingdom with my label and you will not!


-------
WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 09:28 AM on April 19, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

In the context of those verses, it would be the same in both directions.  I "label" you as a hater and you "label" someone as a homosexual.  They are both insults.

The only detail is will enter the kingdom with my label and you will not!


Again with those comments.  You do not know that I will not or that you will, we only have a good idea of what will happen.  To know of overpowering judgement is to act like God.

Excluded" is the word that describes you perfectly since you and your supporter of homosexuality are excluded from the kingdom.


Who is my supporter?  Who said I was homosexual?  Accusations.

I'm a supporter of HUMAN's individually, not as groups of labels.  

Also, I have never read where it says that homosexuals are excluded.  That is something that those who follow the words of Satan and MAN have concluded.  

This is also something that you have not been able to provide evidence of.  Except for the contradictory translation of 1 Cor 6:9-11.  That is all that you rely on.  In even the modern translations it doesn't mention homosexuality only homosexuals.  It mentions heterosexuals AND heterosexuality.  There is a missing component here regarding sexual attractions.  If it was never said, it was NEVER said.  It does not mean God approves of it, but it does not mean that he condemns it either.



(Edited by ffaldo 4/20/2004 at 12:51 AM).
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 12:35 AM on April 20, 2004 | IP
prayforsurf0

|     |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ffaldo at 03:02 AM on March 26, 2004 :
The one main point about this religious right is that they are following their own beleifs and the Bible which guides them through life.  The Bible makes the decisions for people.  They only think their way is correct because that is how they have come to know life.  By their religion, they are not able to come to any other conclusion.

And many of these interpertations of the meaning of the words is skewed towards the religious right.  Homosexuality was not looked upon as a disgrace, but as an attraction of the human body.  The Greeks were tolerant, not hateful of the subject.  They felt that it was the admiration of a body and tolerated the issue.

These remarks here are also somewhat skewed from actuality.  

Lets start here:

"Genesis 19 [NIV]
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

This was never said.  The Hebrew word Yadha meant "to know".  It was used throughout the bible.  In this case, it meant to have sex with.  The towns people were there to rape their enemies, which was an extremely common use of humility and torture.   Also, what about Ezekiel 16:48-50?  Homosexuality is not mentioned.  But wasn't that the reason why they were killed? Looking at this, they were killed not because of their homosexual behavior, but for their criminal and sinful acts.

Also the use of Leviticus can not be properly used by the religious right.  It is a form of a ritual manual for Israel priests.  If you are going to use this as your defense, then you also endorse polygamy among many other rules.  Why does the religious right choose one or two lines and get rid of the rest?

Also, in Romans 1:26-27, Paul was talking about homosexual acts, not homosexuals.  The only way to know one was a homosexual was by their behavior.  For all we know, Jesus could have been homosexual.  He just chose not act upon his feelings.  He never condemned this behavior.  Why? Could Paul have been referring to those heterosexuals who chose to act upon homosexual behavior and not homosexaulity?  Maybe.

In order to fully understand the religious right we would need answers to these questions, which no one has been able to produce.   They have only been able to produce skewed interpertations.

Taking verses out of context to support your view is not the way to defend your position.  

Also, this is what many people in the Christian community are told.  If they had been told the truth about these verses, then I am sure their opinions on whether or not GOD condemned homosexuality would be more sound.



(Edited by ffaldo 3/26/2004 at 1:17 PM).


Every man is born with lust, wether is a lust toward women or men, as a christian you must hold back your sexual desires, however the difference between a gay man and a straight man is that when a straight man becomes married it is no longer neccessary for him to hold back his sexual desires.


 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 10:16 PM on May 6, 2004 | IP
prayforsurf0

|     |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Valerie Martinez at 2:21 PM on March 29, 2004 :
Yes, there are some things in the bible that are a little too hard to follow. Eating pork and wearing garments of the same cloth do seem like silly rules, but Jesus also said in Matthew that remarying after divorce is considered adultery but we don't see all churches following that. I don't believe homosexuality is a sin, but I still believe there is a God. Take the bible as a matter of faith, don't misuse it for something else like others do like bashing gays.

So you just take what you want to believe out of it, and then forget the rest?

Most churches don't practice certain rituals that the old testament tells us to bc that is the old covenant, the new covanent is what we follow. People who have churches and did not study the bible enough, which results in following every little detail to the tee. When Mary Magdelene was going to be stonded for her sins, Jesus said, "Who among you has not sinned?",  then he said that this was the beginning of the new covenant, and neither does he codemn her, even though he was perfect.

This shows that the old ways were now, 'old' and the new covenant has begun. Now some may argue that in the old testament is were you find all the condemnation of homosexual behavior, but it is also in the new testament that you find scriptures that condemn sexual behavior. If your going to follow the bible, follow the whole thing, the truth will set you free.



 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 10:25 PM on May 6, 2004 | IP
Lisab

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Things I am waiting to hear from anti gay christians are: The bible doesn't accept a marriage between two people of different religious faiths and a marriage between two divorced folk...What is your justification for outlawing civil gay marriage, but not inter-religion marriage and remarriage? Do you believe that couples who chose religions other than christianity should not enjoy the rights that married christian couples do? Why don't you focus your collective energies in getting a law passed that bans divorce if you're so concerned about protecting marriage? Furthermore,  I have never heard of a mainstream denomination taking a strong stand against adultery or attempting to remove adulterers from its rolls. Why? Why does "morality" compel you to impose thru force of law a Christian value on one group of people (homosexuals), but not another (adulterers)??
I guess what amazes me the most, is religious people who feel SO strongly about this, and yet provide no concrete reasoning, no evidence, to back up their positions.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 08:59 AM on May 8, 2004 | IP
prayforsurf0

|     |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Lisab at 08:59 AM on May 8, 2004 :
Things I am waiting to hear from anti gay christians are: The bible doesn't accept a marriage between two people of different religious faiths and a marriage between two divorced folk...What is your justification for outlawing civil gay marriage, but not inter-religion marriage and remarriage? Do you believe that couples who chose religions other than christianity should not enjoy the rights that married christian couples do? Why don't you focus your collective energies in getting a law passed that bans divorce if you're so concerned about protecting marriage? Furthermore,  I have never heard of a mainstream denomination taking a strong stand against adultery or attempting to remove adulterers from its rolls. Why? Why does "morality" compel you to impose thru force of law a Christian value on one group of people (homosexuals), but not another (adulterers)??
I guess what amazes me the most, is religious people who feel SO strongly about this, and yet provide no concrete reasoning, no evidence, to back up their positions.


Your argument is flawed, and your reading skills are terrible. Let me just say this first, theres no such thing as gay marriage. Who created marriage? The answer is the church. And the definition of marriage is the legal bond between a man and a woman. So stop asking whats wrong with "gay marriage" , because theres no such thing.

As for your argument, all those things you stated that are in the bible are in the old testament, when Jesus walked the earth he declared the beginning of the new testament, therefore making the old one outdated. All this was stated many times, and that is why it does not matter about what it says to eat or marry in the old testament. But we still disagree with homosexuality because it is also stated in the new testament as a sin. Next time you make a post read everything, and read it carefully.


 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 4:13 PM on May 8, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

And the definition of marriage is the legal bond between a man and a woman.


Actually, the definition includes both same sex and opposite sex couples.

So stop asking whats wrong with "gay marriage" , because theres no such thing.


Sorry to say, it does exist.

May 17 --> Massachusetts legalizes gay marriage

It is also legalized in other countries.

But we still disagree with homosexuality because it is also stated in the new testament as a sin.


I don't know if you've read any of the comments that I've posted above, but actually homosexuality is not mentioned.  The only thing remotely close to it was homosexual behavior.  There is no correlation stated in the Bible between the two.

Who created marriage? The answer is the church.


When the Church created marriage where did they state that those who were homosexuals could not marry?  They said that a man and a woman could be married, but nothing about the union of two of who shared the same sex.   This was not until later that this was stated.  So there is no proof that it was created ONLY for opposite sexes as they did not have the intention of marrying same-sex couples.  Your argument is both an appeal to belief and an appeal to tradition.  

(Edited by ffaldo 5/8/2004 at 11:18 PM).
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 11:14 PM on May 8, 2004 | IP
Lisab

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from prayforsurf0 at 4:13 PM on May 8, 2004 :
Your argument is flawed, and your reading skills are terrible. Let me just say this first, theres no such thing as gay marriage. Who created marriage? The answer is the church. And the definition of marriage is the legal bond between a man and a woman. So stop asking whats wrong with "gay marriage" , because theres no such thing.


Wrong. Native American were performing same-sex marriages long before any Christian marriage was performed in America. If you believe marriage was created by the church, then you don't know much about history. The concept of a marriage ceremony involving a church is very recent. The first known recorded marriage was in Mesopotamia in about 2640 BCE. Its purpose was to bind the woman to the man as property and romance or love did not really enter the picture. In addition, for the vast majority of human history, heterosexual marriage has been between A man and MULTIPLE women. Women were considered chattel, property, and they had no rights, nor a vote. Also marriage was traditionally never divorced nor entered into by "unpure" non virgins. Not to mention that marriage of inter-racial couples was banned. The institution of marriage has survived numerous changes to the definition and the institution throughout history. Marriage is NOT a provenance of any church. Any couple can get married without clergy but NO couple can get married without a state license. This, alone, proves that religion has no legal standing in marriage and has no business trying to dictate who has the right to marry.



[As for your argument, all those things you stated that are in the bible are in the old testament, when Jesus walked the earth he declared the beginning of the new testament, therefore making the old one outdated. All this was stated many times, and that is why it does not matter about what it says to eat or marry in the old testament. But we still disagree with homosexuality because it is also stated in the new testament as a sin. Next time you make a post read everything, and read it carefully.


Your Bible clearly states that anyone who remarries after being divorced not only commits adultery but lives in adultery every day they do not leave their illicit relationship.  Paul is most specific and most clear on this topic. He speaks out strongly about divorce and remarriage and says almost nothing about homosexuality.  Jesus didn't give a flip about homosexuality and was pretty casual about adultery.  So I wanted to know why people like you are not lobbying to make divorce and remarriage illegal since your god considers divorce and remarriage a great sin. Why are you not agitating for laws requiring the divorced and remarried to get their marriages annulled and to spend the rest of their lives as celibates? Why is your church not garnering headlines when it pickets outside a courtroom in the cause of outlawing adultery ? How will you explain that you fought against one group of "sinners" and deliberately enabled another group of sinners to consummate their sin? I awaited the answer.... and I got  such ridiculous response from you. Your consistent harping on homosexuality while completely ignoring the greater sin of adultery is rock-solid evidence that you don't understand the Bible. And you are responding out of bigotry and NOT for any valid religious or dogmatic reason. Stop using a book to justify homophobic bigotry.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 12:01 PM on May 9, 2004 | IP
prayforsurf0

|     |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ffaldo at 11:14 PM on May 8, 2004 :
Actually, the definition includes both same sex and opposite sex couples.


So stop asking whats wrong with "gay marriage" , because theres no such thing.


Sorry to say, it does exist.

May 17 --> Massachusetts legalizes gay marriage

It is also legalized in other countries.

But we still disagree with homosexuality because it is also stated in the new testament as a sin.


I don't know if you've read any of the comments that I've posted above, but actually homosexuality is not mentioned.  The only thing remotely close to it was homosexual behavior.  There is no correlation stated in the Bible between the two.

Who created marriage? The answer is the church.


When the Church created marriage where did they state that those who were homosexuals could not marry?  They said that a man and a woman could be married, but nothing about the union of two of who shared the same sex.   This was not until later that this was stated.  So there is no proof that it was created ONLY for opposite sexes as they did not have the intention of marrying same-sex couples.  Your argument is both an appeal to belief and an appeal to tradition.  

(Edited by ffaldo 5/8/2004 at 11:18 PM).


Actually, the definition includes both same sex and opposite sex couples.


-Look it up, the definition does not included same sex.

Sorry to say, it does exist.

May 17 --> Massachusetts legalizes gay marriage

It is also legalized in other countries.


And its sad to see how that state has corrupted the meaning of marriage. What they do is unite gays, not marry them. They have totally lost the meaning and sacredness of marriage

I don't know if you've read any of the comments that I've posted above, but actually homosexuality is not mentioned.  The only thing remotely close to it was homosexual behavior.  There is no correlation stated in the Bible between the two.


Romans 1:27, that is the new testament in case you didn't know, clearly shows what the new testament thinks about homosexuality, not homosexuals, homosexuality. God loves everyone, but he hates there sin.

When the Church created marriage where did they state that those who were homosexuals could not marry?  They said that a man and a woman could be married, but nothing about the union of two of who shared the same sex.   This was not until later that this was stated.  So there is no proof that it was created ONLY for opposite sexes as they did not have the intention of marrying same-sex couples.  Your argument is both an appeal to belief and an appeal to tradition.


The church never said you can't get married to the same sex because its clearly states various times that homosexuality is wrong, when you put two and two together you can gather that if homosexuality is wrong, then marrying gays is wrong.

lisab

Wrong. Native American were performing same-sex marriages long before any Christian marriage was performed in America. If you believe marriage was created by the church, then you don't know much about history. The concept of a marriage ceremony involving a church is very recent. The first known recorded marriage was in Mesopotamia in about 2640 BCE. Its purpose was to bind the woman to the man as property and romance or love did not really enter the picture. In addition, for the vast majority of human history, heterosexual marriage has been between A man and MULTIPLE women. Women were considered chattel, property, and they had no rights, nor a vote. Also marriage was traditionally never divorced nor entered into by "unpure" non virgins. Not to mention that marriage of inter-racial couples was banned. The institution of marriage has survived numerous changes to the definition and the institution throughout history. Marriage is NOT a provenance of any church. Any couple can get married without clergy but NO couple can get married without a state license. This, alone, proves that religion has no legal standing in marriage and has no business trying to dictate who has the right to marry.


Aren't you happy that we've become so much more civilized! So lets not turn back in the other direction by allowing gay people to legally unite.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 3:52 PM on May 9, 2004 | IP
Lisab

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from prayforsurf0 at 3:52 PM on May 9, 2004 :
Aren't you happy that we've become so much more civilized! So lets not turn back in the other direction by allowing gay people to legally unite.


You should spend more time lobbying for all divorced and remarried people to either return to their former spouses or to live celibate and apart for the rest of their lives.


 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 5:26 PM on May 9, 2004 | IP
prayforsurf0

|     |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Lisab at 5:26 PM on May 9, 2004 :
Quote from prayforsurf0 at 3:52 PM on May 9, 2004 :
Aren't you happy that we've become so much more civilized! So lets not turn back in the other direction by allowing gay people to legally unite.

 
You should spend more time lobbying for all divorced and remarried people to either return to their former spouses or to live celibate and apart for the rest of their lives.





That's not what my bible tells me to do. It says that in the old testament, and I'll say it once again, the old comandment is over, we live by the new testament. I'll argue what is right.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 06:56 AM on May 10, 2004 | IP
Lisab

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from prayforsurf0 at 06:56 AM on May 10, 2004 :That's not what my bible tells me to do. It says that in the old testament, and I'll say it once again, the old comandment is over, we live by the new testament. I'll argue what is right.


Do you really think you have read the Bible?! Seems like you have a truly abysmal lack of knowledge of your faith.

Matthew 5
(16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (17)Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to
fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19)Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (31) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (32) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Luke 16 (18) Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

I think you are in for one hell of a shock on your judgment day. Anyone who believes in a faith based on easily PROVEN lies is doomed. I can hear Satan laughing at you now.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 11:00 PM on May 16, 2004 | IP
prayforsurf0

|     |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Lisab at 11:00 PM on May 16, 2004 :
Quote from prayforsurf0 at 06:56 AM on May 10, 2004 :That's not what my bible tells me to do. It says that in the old testament, and I'll say it once again, the old comandment is over, we live by the new testament. I'll argue what is right.


Do you really think you have read the Bible?! Seems like you have a truly abysmal lack of knowledge of your faith.

Matthew 5
(16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (17)Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to
fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19)Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (31) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (32) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Luke 16 (18) Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

I think you are in for one hell of a shock on your judgment day. Anyone who believes in a faith based on easily PROVEN lies is doomed. I can hear Satan laughing at you now.



How does any of this post argue that homosexuality is ok, oh wait it dosn't. When Jesus said these things you just quoted he was talking about the moral law that is seen in the New Testament, not ceremonial law that the Old Testament has. The Old Testament was all about keeping the law and being perfect, but obviously we saw that we can't do that, so Jesus came to earth and the New Testament began and this was about love, and obeying God because we love him. Yes we mess up, but we strive for the best. You can't just read a portion of the Bible and then claim to know what your talking about, and try to use it to justify your false argument. It is perfectly clear that you have no understanding of the Bible. Your sadly decieved, try going to a church near you, a christian, born again church.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 5:37 PM on May 20, 2004 | IP
Lisab

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from prayforsurf0 at 5:37 PM on May 20, 2004 :Quote from prayforsurf0 at 06:56 AM on May 10, 2004 :
How does any of this post argue that homosexuality is ok, oh wait it dosn't. When Jesus said these things you just quoted he was talking about the moral law that is seen in the New Testament, not ceremonial law that the Old Testament has. The Old Testament was all about keeping the law and being perfect, but obviously we saw that we can't do that, so Jesus came to earth and the New Testament began and this was about love, and obeying God because we love him. Yes we mess up, but we strive for the best. You can't just read a portion of the Bible and then claim to know what your talking about, and try to use it to justify your false argument. It is perfectly clear that you have no understanding of the Bible. Your sadly decieved, try going to a church near you, a christian, born again church.


I'm not talking about The Old Testament. You still ignore the fact that Jesus condemned divorce and remarriage? I suggest you read what I write, rather than what you want to see.

1 Corinthians 7

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not
separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or
else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

Mark 10:11-12
And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits
adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she
commits adultery."

Luke 16:18
"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he
who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9
And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and
marries another, commits adultery.


As far as I'm concerned,  every single time you spew your blather about homosexuals when Jesus himself was silent on homosexuality, I'm completely justified in throwing your hypocrisy back in your face by discussing remarriage after divorce.  After all, according to your god, divorce after remarriage is ONE HUGE SIN. The sin that keeps on sinning, as it were. And If you were truly concerned about either biblical morality or family stability, you would be going after adultery first, since by all estimates it is much more common than homosexual relationships, and has proven devastating effects on innocent people.

The fact that we don't  see people like you advocating for legal sanctions against adulterous marriages clearly demonstrates that the move to ban gay marriage is not at all about wanting to enforce "biblical morality" or family stability, but about something else all together. Unless we are willing to admit and face what that "something else" is, the hidden motives behind this movement, it is a movement based in lies and deceit.
So as long as you insist on vomiting vitriol against gays, I'm going to point out your ignoring remarriage after divorce.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 08:13 AM on May 21, 2004 | IP
prayforsurf0

|     |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Lisab at 08:13 AM on May 21, 2004 :
Quote from prayforsurf0 at 5:37 PM on May 20, 2004 :Quote from prayforsurf0 at 06:56 AM on May 10, 2004 :
How does any of this post argue that homosexuality is ok, oh wait it dosn't. When Jesus said these things you just quoted he was talking about the moral law that is seen in the New Testament, not ceremonial law that the Old Testament has. The Old Testament was all about keeping the law and being perfect, but obviously we saw that we can't do that, so Jesus came to earth and the New Testament began and this was about love, and obeying God because we love him. Yes we mess up, but we strive for the best. You can't just read a portion of the Bible and then claim to know what your talking about, and try to use it to justify your false argument. It is perfectly clear that you have no understanding of the Bible. Your sadly decieved, try going to a church near you, a christian, born again church.


I'm not talking about The Old Testament. You still ignore the fact that Jesus condemned divorce and remarriage? I suggest you read what I write, rather than what you want to see.

1 Corinthians 7

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not
separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or
else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

Mark 10:11-12
And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits
adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she
commits adultery."

Luke 16:18
"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he
who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9
And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and
marries another, commits adultery.


As far as I'm concerned,  every single time you spew your blather about homosexuals when Jesus himself was silent on homosexuality, I'm completely justified in throwing your hypocrisy back in your face by discussing remarriage after divorce.  After all, according to your god, divorce after remarriage is ONE HUGE SIN. The sin that keeps on sinning, as it were. And If you were truly concerned about either biblical morality or family stability, you would be going after adultery first, since by all estimates it is much more common than homosexual relationships, and has proven devastating effects on innocent people.

The fact that we don't  see people like you advocating for legal sanctions against adulterous marriages clearly demonstrates that the move to ban gay marriage is not at all about wanting to enforce "biblical morality" or family stability, but about something else all together. Unless we are willing to admit and face what that "something else" is, the hidden motives behind this movement, it is a movement based in lies and deceit.
So as long as you insist on vomiting vitriol against gays, I'm going to point out your ignoring remarriage after divorce.


Understand something, I'm not neglecting any part of the bible, all those things you posted, I believe, when a man marries a woman, he devotes his whole self to her, and vows to stay true. I don't believe in divorce, suck it up and work your problems out is how I see it, marriage is not always smooth sailing. Read more of book of 1 Corinthians and you'll see that it condems homosexuality, also in 1 Timothy, and 1 Romans.

Get it straight what I believe, I don't care what gay people do, its disgusting, but w/e. But, now they are making this a legal matter as well as religious. The church ordained marriage, you can't neglect religion in this matter because the idea of marriage is religious!! Ever wonder why a marriage always happened in a church?  

Read more carefullly the scripture you posted..

"Matthew 19:9
And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and
marries another, commits adultery."

except for sexual immorality.

Getting divorced for little reasons its not exceptable, and people do fight that divorce is wrong. However, under the circumstance of sexual immorality it is acceptable. Read carefully, there is an answer for everything in the word of God.

I'm going to point out your ignoring remarriage after divorce.


I don't know how many times I've said this in this forum, but not everyone is perfect, just because people in real marriages sin dosnt mean its alright to make a whole law that allows gays to sin. When a real married couple get a divorce, they sinned, but when a gay couple gets united, they are living in sin. This is a gay debate, lets stay on the topic.


 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 12:38 AM on May 22, 2004 | IP
Lisab

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from prayforsurf0 at 12:38 AM on May 22, 2004 :Understand something, I'm not neglecting any part of the bible, all those things you posted, I believe, when a man marries a woman, he devotes his whole self to her, and vows to stay true. I don't believe in divorce, suck it up and work your problems out is how I see it, marriage is not always smooth sailing. Read more of book of 1 Corinthians and you'll see that it condems homosexuality, also in 1 Timothy, and 1 Romans.


Show me the verse that shows where Jesus himself denounces homosexual orientation. There is none. You jut ignore this fact at your convenience. Jesus hates divorce and divorce followed by remarriage is one of the Big Ten.  Homosexual sex didn't even make the cut. So if you are really concerned about the protecting the "sanctity" of marriage, how come you are not urging the state to outlaw remarriage? I am claiming that you display hypocrisy when you denigrate homosexuals and condone adulterers.

Get it straight what I believe, I don't care what gay people do, its disgusting, but w/e. But, now they are making this a legal matter as well as religious. The church ordained marriage, you can't neglect religion in this matter because the idea of marriage is religious!! Ever wonder why a marriage always happened in a church?
 

Wrong. Lots of couples get married without a religious ceremony. No couple can be married, even with a religious ceremony, without a secular license granted by a secular government. The presence of a clergyperson is NOT necessary and, when there is such, the religious representative serves merely as a witness to the ceremony. The fact that some religions have rites that bless marriages does not negate the fact that no church has the right to dictate who may or may not marry. That is a legal and sociological decision.

I don't know how many times I've said this in this forum, but not everyone is perfect, just because people in real marriages sin dosnt mean its alright to make a whole law that allows gays to sin. When a real married couple get a divorce, they sinned, but when a gay couple gets united, they are living in sin. This is a gay debate, lets stay on the topic.


You rather conveniently forget that one must repent of one's sins.  Each and every day that a divorced/remarried person stays with their "new" spouse they are renewing the adultery and, thus, cannot be repentant.  According to your Bible, such behavior will guarantee you a warm place in hell. The only valid way of following what Jesus is supposed to have taught is to legally force all divorced people to renounce their adulterous remarriages and either return to their former spouse or to remain celibate for life. Anything else is going against your "Lord". I've not read anything in the books of any religion (that I know of) that forbids marriage between persons of the same gender and, if there were, it wouldn't matter because no matter how much you hate it, marriage is NOT under the provenance of any religion. Marriage is secular and you don't get to say who is allowed to take part.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 09:11 AM on May 23, 2004 | IP
prayforsurf0

|     |       Report Post



Junior Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Lisab at 09:11 AM on May 23, 2004 :
Quote from prayforsurf0 at 12:38 AM on May 22, 2004 :Understand something, I'm not neglecting any part of the bible, all those things you posted, I believe, when a man marries a woman, he devotes his whole self to her, and vows to stay true. I don't believe in divorce, suck it up and work your problems out is how I see it, marriage is not always smooth sailing. Read more of book of 1 Corinthians and you'll see that it condems homosexuality, also in 1 Timothy, and 1 Romans.


Show me the verse that shows where Jesus himself denounces homosexual orientation. There is none. You jut ignore this fact at your convenience. Jesus hates divorce and divorce followed by remarriage is one of the Big Ten.  Homosexual sex didn't even make the cut. So if you are really concerned about the protecting the "sanctity" of marriage, how come you are not urging the state to outlaw remarriage? I am claiming that you display hypocrisy when you denigrate homosexuals and condone adulterers.

Get it straight what I believe, I don't care what gay people do, its disgusting, but w/e. But, now they are making this a legal matter as well as religious. The church ordained marriage, you can't neglect religion in this matter because the idea of marriage is religious!! Ever wonder why a marriage always happened in a church?
 

Wrong. Lots of couples get married without a religious ceremony. No couple can be married, even with a religious ceremony, without a secular license granted by a secular government. The presence of a clergyperson is NOT necessary and, when there is such, the religious representative serves merely as a witness to the ceremony. The fact that some religions have rites that bless marriages does not negate the fact that no church has the right to dictate who may or may not marry. That is a legal and sociological decision.

I don't know how many times I've said this in this forum, but not everyone is perfect, just because people in real marriages sin dosnt mean its alright to make a whole law that allows gays to sin. When a real married couple get a divorce, they sinned, but when a gay couple gets united, they are living in sin. This is a gay debate, lets stay on the topic.


You rather conveniently forget that one must repent of one's sins.  Each and every day that a divorced/remarried person stays with their "new" spouse they are renewing the adultery and, thus, cannot be repentant.  According to your Bible, such behavior will guarantee you a warm place in hell. The only valid way of following what Jesus is supposed to have taught is to legally force all divorced people to renounce their adulterous remarriages and either return to their former spouse or to remain celibate for life. Anything else is going against your "Lord". I've not read anything in the books of any religion (that I know of) that forbids marriage between persons of the same gender and, if there were, it wouldn't matter because no matter how much you hate it, marriage is NOT under the provenance of any religion. Marriage is secular and you don't get to say who is allowed to take part.


The only thing I have to say to your repetitive post is, homosexuality is condemned in the bible, man wrote it down, but it was God who did this through them. If you dont believe that then why did 60 prophets claim to be used by God and make prophesis that were later fufilled in one man Jesus Christ? All of the prophesis, not one was left out. If its in the bible I believe it, and yes divorce is wrong, but there are exceptions. There is no exception with homosexuality.


 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 6:48 PM on May 23, 2004 | IP
Lisab

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from prayforsurf0 at 6:48 PM on May 23, 2004 :The only thing I have to say to your repetitive post is, homosexuality is condemned in the bible, man wrote it down, but it was God who did this through them. If you dont believe that then why did 60 prophets claim to be used by God and make prophesis that were later fufilled in one man Jesus Christ? All of the prophesis, not one was left out. If its in the bible I believe it, and yes divorce is wrong, but there are exceptions. There is no exception with homosexuality.


The bible does NOT condemn homosexual ORIENTATION or loving, committed same-sex relationship. There is reference to the supposed undesirability of homosexual sex but that is simply an interpretation, and It should not surprise you that the human interpretation of the bible has been incorrect on a number of matters.  If it is the Christian faith we are discussing, you should be able to point to Christ's OWN WORDS on homosexuality. Unlike divorce and remarriage, homosexuality was never condemned by Jesus himself. So I repeat ... why aren't you campaigning to make remarriage illegal since your god considers it a great sin? In fact, a very large percentage of Christian adults are divorced for reasons other than "unchastity". And all who remarry after divorce are living in sin. NO EXCEPTION. My posts have to be repetitive because you completely ignore these facts and don't answer valid questions I ask. It is hypocritical that some Christians are so adamantly vocal about something about which Jesus never speak, and yet so conspicuously quiet about a sin about Jesus spoke plainly.

I hate it when people wave the bible around and try to outlaw something they don't like. Being religious fanatic goes against what I believe, but I am not calling for you to be banned. Also I am not opposing the right of the churches. They can exclude unbelievers, gays, divorced people, and so on, and then sit back and wonder why the world is becoming more and more secular. However, churches are not the arbiters of marriage. Agnostics, Athiests, people who do have not managed to follow the rules of their religion, or who have none, they can get married by the state.




 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 03:16 AM on May 24, 2004 | IP
    
Multiple pages for this topic [ 1 2 ]

Topic Jump
Next »
Multiple pages for this topic [ 1 2 ]
Forum moderated by: admin
    

Topic options: Lock topic | Unlock topic | Make Topic Sticky | Remove Sticky | Delete thread | Move thread | Merge thread

 

© YouDebate.com
Powered by:
ScareCrow version 2.12
© 2001 Jonathan Bravata. All rights reserved.