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Valerie Martinez

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This is a discussion about your thoughts on violence agaist gays. Has it gone too far? Do you believe hate crime laws would decrease violence? Violence agaisnt anyone because their different is wrong. We should never condone violence against anyone for their race, religion, sex, dissibility or sexual orientation. Matthew Shepard's death brought more spotlight on the violence and harrasment against gays in America. But what do you think should be done to decrease violence?
 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 12:08 PM on April 2, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

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I don't think placing more hate crime laws will do much to deter people from hatred.  It is something that people allow themselves to believe in and is something a law will not cause them to think differently.  But I do think laws should be created for justice.  Especially for those who murder.   Murder is murder, no matter the reasoning behind it.  Anyone who commits this type of violence should be punished.  I don't think violence will ever go away for any hate crime.  
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 8:28 PM on April 2, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

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Who needs violence against the unrighteous since God is a God of vengeance?

Deut 28:21 "The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until He has consumed you from the land where you are entering to possess it.  " The LORD will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation and with fiery heat and with the sword and with  blight and with mildew, and they will pursue you until you  perish.

If Christains would be obedient to God's word, the unrighteous would be punished by the God of vengeance.

Ps 94:1 - O LORD, God of vengeance, God of vengeance, shine forth!

Romans 12:19-21 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave  room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE  IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord."BUT  IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."  Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.





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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 07:54 AM on April 3, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

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Quote from ffaldo at 8:28 PM on April 2, 2004 :
I don't think placing more hate crime laws will do much to deter people from hatred.  It is something that people allow themselves to believe in and is something a law will not cause them to think differently.  But I do think laws should be created for justice.  Especially for those who murder.   Murder is murder, no matter the reasoning behind it.  Anyone who commits this type of violence should be punished.  I don't think violence will ever go away for any hate crime.  




Hi ffaldo.

Yes, murder is ALWAYS wrong. No one should ever take someone's life away. As a Christian, I was disgusted to hear about a man named Benjamin Matthew Williams who snuck in a house and killed a gay couple in their sleep because he felt God told him to do so. Williams never felt any remorse for his crime because he even said in his trial that he was only "following the word of the creator". Ovisously Williams was referring to Leviticus 20:13 which says gays should be "put to death". But this is just the way some people like to misuse the bible for their own sick purposes. Williams, who was also a white supremicist with his brother, eventually comitted suicice in prison by slitting his wrist. As I said before, the bible is a great book but use it for faith people, don't misuse it like others do to bash OR kill gays because that's not teaching the love of God at all.

 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 11:49 AM on April 5, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from Valerie Martinez at 11:49 AM on April 5, 2004 :  As I said before, the bible is a great book but use it for faith people, don't misuse it like others do to bash OR kill gays because that's not teaching the love of God at all.


Then you must agree with Paul that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of God since they are unrighteous:

1 Tim 1:8-11 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law  is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious,  for the ungodlyand sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers  and immoral  men and  homosexuals  and  kidnappers and  liars  and  perjurers,  and whatever else is contrary to sound  teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the  blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

1 Corinthians 6 :9-11 Or do  you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit  the kingdom of God? Do  not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate,  nor homosexuals,nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit  the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 - For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Since you are so zealous for the homosexuals, are you homosexual?




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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 12:51 PM on April 5, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

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Once again, the Bible is open for interpretations.  

No human should be murdered for any reason.  It is God who is to make the Judgment, not his people.  We are not here to carry out his work.  We are his work.

Aside from the Bible, why do you feel it is right to murder someone solely on the basis that they may/may not be a homosexual?
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 3:33 PM on April 5, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from ffaldo at 3:33 PM on April 5, 2004
Once again, the Bible is open for interpretations.  


Not when it comes to antichrists that promote homosexuals.

Quote from ffaldo at 3:37 PM on April 5, 2004 :
What on earth are you talking about?  I do believe Jesus was the Christ!  I never said that I didn't.  I said I don't believe the HUMAN Jesus was the Christ, as Christians believe.  I believe in the SPIRIT of Jesus.  I would rather follow someone who was more than a human.


Aside from the Bible, why do you feel it is right to murder someone solely on the basis that they may/may not be a homosexual?


I already made my point.  God send His nice plagues, like AIDS, to cleanse the land of homosexuals.  It also made people aware of them and fear them so it set the homosexual's cause back years.  However, it did not turn the people around as to repent and remove the sin from their land.





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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 6:21 PM on April 5, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

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Not when it comes to antichrists that promote homosexuals.


Yet another fallacy in your argument.  Homosexuals are SUPPOSEDLY the only antichrists?  Homosexuals are NEVER condemned anywhere within the Bible.  Words are exaggerated, skewed, and misinterpreted throughout the Biblical translations.  Good thing too.  It helps you to promote your evil words.

I am not the only one who chooses to follow Jesus in a different way than Christians.  Have you ever heard of Jewish Christians?  Remember that Jesus the HUMAN was Jewish, and more than likely the SPIRIT.  So to say that the only way to follow Jesus is to worship his flesh is not within today's society.  You are stepping back to Hitler's days of using Christianity to rid the world of Jews and others (including homosexuals) that Christian theologists stated did not belong to the Christian community.  

The words of Jesus, Paul, and many other apostles have been used to spread hatred within every community throughout the world that dares to defy one section of Christianity.

The fact is without your popular interpretations of the Bible you are left with no evidence to support your argument.  The Bible bears no place within our government.

 God send His nice plagues, like AIDS, to cleanse the land of homosexuals.


Where did you get this information from?  AIDS is the fastest growing disease within HETEROSEXUALS, not HOMOSEXUALS.  Homosexuals have been smart enough, and safe enough to slow down this disease.  At the same time more HETEROSEXUALS have this view that it can't happen to them because they do not have feelings towards the same sex.  That is wrong, made possible in part by Christians like yourself.  You have placed blinders on your own people so that they become part of the epidemic.  

Using your logic, fallable at best, homosexuals must have infiltrated Africa, where Christianity runs rampid, and gave millions of women, children and men AIDS.  Please choose a different argument.

And from the other thread, you never explained why you would use something that was brought to you in part by homosexuals?  Does the Bible tell you that it is alright to take from homosexuals and then bash them for providing you with those priveleges?

Homosexual behavior is mentioned rarely within the Bible, and is used by the Christian community as evidence that it is the gravest of sins.  They have misinterprations of what happened at Soddohm and Gollahm, or at least interpretations to support their opinions.  They have the Apostle Paul, who was not GOD.  They use Paul's words as if they were God's own.  Human behavior of all types were condemned throughout the Bible.  Humans have performed far graver sins than homosexuals ever did.  
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 10:59 PM on April 5, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

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[b]Quote from ffaldo at 10:59 PM on April 5, 2004   Homosexuals are NEVER condemned anywhere within the Bible.  Words are exaggerated, skewed, and misinterpreted throughout the Biblical translations.  Good thing too.  It helps you to promote your evil words.


Where does it say homosexuals were praised?  Chapter and verse, please?

Where did you get this information from?  AIDS is the fastest growing disease within HETEROSEXUALS, not HOMOSEXUALS.


It seems to me it came from Deut 28 and Lev 26.  Did I say plagues were exclusive to the homosexuals?






(Edited by unworthy servant 4/6/2004 at 1:35 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 1:34 PM on April 6, 2004 | IP
ffaldo

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Where does it say homosexuals were praised?  Chapter and verse, please?


I never said that they were praised.  Another one of your twists and exaggerations.  All I said was homosexuality was never condemned.  Those who committed homosexual behavior maybe, but not solely homosexuals.  Which is logical.

It seems to me it came from Deut 28 and Lev 26.  Did I say plagues were exclusive to the homosexuals?


Yes: "God send His nice plagues, like AIDS, to cleanse the land of homosexuals."

If it were meant for every grave sinner, then you should have said that.
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 4:57 PM on April 6, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

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[b]Quote from ffaldo at 4:57 PM on April 6, 2004
I never said that they were praised.  Another one of your twists and exaggerations.  All I said was homosexuality was never condemned.  Those who committed homosexual behavior maybe, but not solely homosexuals.  Which is logical.


I can see many twists in your logic.  If your repent you are no longer a homosexual.  They get to enter the kingdom.  Not you, nor your twist , not your homosexuals.

If it were meant for every grave sinner, then you should have said that.


Yes, you are the "authority of God" (antichrist) .





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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 08:38 AM on April 7, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

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Quote from unworthy servant at 12:51 PM on April 5, 2004 :
Quote from Valerie Martinez at 11:49 AM on April 5, 2004 :  As I said before, the bible is a great book but use it for faith people, don't misuse it like others do to bash OR kill gays because that's not teaching the love of God at all.


Then you must agree with Paul that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of God since they are unrighteous:

1 Tim 1:8-11 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law  is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious,  for the ungodlyand sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers  and immoral  men and  homosexuals  and  kidnappers and  liars  and  perjurers,  and whatever else is contrary to sound  teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the  blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

1 Corinthians 6 :9-11 Or do  you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit  the kingdom of God? Do  not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate,  nor homosexuals,nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit  the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 - For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Since you are so zealous for the homosexuals, are you homosexual?





To answer your question, no I am not homosexual. Do you accuse everyone on here who defends homosexuals as being homosexual? You are turning this thread into a religious debate instead of disscussing about what this thread was meant to be discussed about - violence agaisnt homosexuals. By the way, you might want to read Luke 16:18 because Christ specifically said that remarrying after divorce is a form of adultery. Perhaps you should read this article.

When Christ was Gay
- What many Christians seem to forget -

By Brian Elroy McKinley

When Christians pour their judgment on homosexual men and women, they do nothing less than make a mockery of their own savior, Jesus Christ. The grace they are willing to accept as followers of Christ is suddenly not good enough to extend to those they find offensive. It's a double standard, based not in biblical truth but in fear and the desire for control. To understand this, we must understand what Christians believe, and how their beliefs are being subverted from living in love to the canonizing of condemnation.
Christians believe we all have sins that keep us from eternal life. None of us are good enough to earn our way into heaven, not even the Mother Teresa's of the world.1 Sin - the breaking of God's laws as laid down in the Bible - must be "atoned" for; it must be penalized, and the penalty is eternal death,2 what some call going to hell. But all is not lost, say Christians, because God himself paid the price by sending his son, in the person of Jesus Christ, to die for all of us.3 This is called "propitiation," where Christ died in our place to pay the penalty of sin. In essence, he became all of us for those moments that he hung on the cross; he became whatever kind of sinner we are, and then he took those sins to the grave.4 But, as most of us know from celebrating Easter each year, Christians believe Christ did not stay in the grave. Once the penalty of sin was erased, Christ was raised from the dead and now lives in heaven with God.5

But we are not automatically "saved" from out sins. A person must decide to accept Christ's sacrifice on the cross in order to "join the family of God."6 Some people believe we must say a prayer, asking God to forgive us of our sins.7 Others say we must simply choose to believe in Christ.8 Still others say we must confess our belief in Christ's sacrifice by going through a public ritual that represents Christ's death and resurrection, a ritual known as baptism.9 Whichever way it's done, we must consciously decide to accept Christ's sacrifice for our own sins. This is called "grace." In a nutshell, grace is forgiving someone when they have wronged you. Since Christians believe all of us have wronged God with our sins, by believing that Christ paid our eternal penalty for our wrongdoing, we are accepting God's grace.10

Sounds simple enough. But it's not. Once you become a Christian, you should start seeing a change in your behavior.11 You should start learning to love.12 You should also stop wanting to sin.13 But here's the catch. You can't. Even after you accept Christ's forgiveness, you will continue to be a sinner. Try as you might to stop altogether, you just can't.14 Even the Apostle Paul, one of the most prolific writers in the Bible, complained that he kept sinning.15 But we are told to keep trying and that we should see some progress.16 We are also told that some people who say the words to become a Christian may not actually believe what they were saying. These people are not really saved.17 And, say some Christians, you'll know who they are because they don't even try to stop sinning, even though those who are saved can never stop either.

Confused? It gets worse. Some Christians have made an art of figuring out who is saved and who is not. They figure that if you are at least trying to align your lifestyle to fit their interpretation of God's laws, then you are living under God's grace. But if you choose to continue living in a lifestyle displeasing to God, you cannot really be saved because you are living in a state of rebellion. These Christians are diligent to pick out those sins that are "lifestyle" sins and those that are once-in-a-while sins that can affect even good Christians. Once-in-a-while sins they blow off with the phrase, "we all fail sometime." Lifestyle sins they condemn loudly, making the point that people who practice such sins are bound for hell, and if they seduce our children into such sins, they will go to hell too.

And this is where these kinds of Christians, known collectively as the Religious Right or Fundamentalists, make a mockery of their own Savior. They do this by picking and choosing which lifestyle sins are covered by God's grace and which ones are not. They do this by claiming that God's grace covers their own lifestyle sins but not those of the homosexual. They do this by accepting God's grace in their own lives and then refusing to extend that same grace to those they condemn for having the wrong lifestyle.

And they can do this because they don't believe they have any lifestyle sins of their own. If you ask them about it, they'll say things like, "I used to sleep around but I was forgiven of that sin and now I don't do it anymore." However, ask them if a homosexual can be saved by God's grace, and they will say, "The gay man who does not turn from his homosexuality is choosing to live a lifestyle counter to God's laws and is not, therefore, saved by grace." What they conveniently forget is that 50% of them - those who count themselves among the Religious Right - are divorced, and more than 85% of those are remarried. What that means is, according to the Bible, that nearly 43% of the same people who condemn the gay man for his homosexuality choose to live in a lifestyle of adultery, a sin that ranks equal to homosexuality in God's eyes.

That's right. The very people who condemn one "sinful" lifestyle are practicing another.

You see, in the Bible Jesus said:

"Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery."
Luke 16:18
And the Apostle Paul (who continued to sin himself) said:
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
A divorced man who remarries is entering into an adulterous relationship. And it's not just a relationship; it's an adulterous lifestyle because the remarried man chooses to continue living in the adulterous relationship for the rest of his life (or until he divorces and remarries again). However, if you ask this adulterous man if he is still a Christian, he will say something like, "I believe God has forgiven me and I'm now living under his grace." And ask him if he's willing to leave his current wife in order to "turn from his adulterous lifestyle," and he will refuse because "God's grace has already saved him." But this is the same man who earlier claimed that the homosexual must turn from his "sinful" lifestyle as a condition of receiving God's grace.
Sound unfair? It is.

Sound ungodly? Let's see what Christ had to say about it:

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. "
Matthew 7:1-2
And:
"Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, `Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, `Pay what you owe.' So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, `Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."
Matthew 18:23-35
The Religious Right is nearly half-full with people living in continuous adulterous lifestyles, and those who are not remarried fully accept their remarried brothers and sisters without question. They even perform their adulterous marriage ceremonies in their churches. Yet they have the gall to preach from their pulpits or shout through the airwaves that God wants us to stop the world from accepting homosexuals the same way they have been accepted by God.
Jesus warned us not to be like the servant who was forgiven his debt by the grace of his lord but then used the legal system to throw a fellow slave in jail.18 The Religious Right, however, claim God's grace for their own lifestyle sins but then turn around and give tremendous amounts of time and money to use the legal system against homosexuals.

It is a double standard. It is a mockery. If Christ took their sins to the cross and became an adulterer through propitiation before burying that sin in the ground, then Christ also took the gay person's sin to the cross and became a homosexual before burying that sin in the ground. The Religious Right, and everyone else, should either accept that God's grace covers all of us, including those living in sinful lifestyles, or that none of us are covered. They should either condemn their remarried members or shut up about those among us who are gay.

But they don't. And we are left to wonder why.

Why do they pick on one "sinful" lifestyle but not their own? Why homosexuality and not adultery? They say it's because homosexuality is damaging our families and hurting our children. But which is really worse? Over 50% of American parents get divorced. Most of those remarry. Over 50% of our children have their families torn apart and then merged with the families of strangers (causing a lot of sexual abuse on children by step-parents). But less than 10% of the population is homosexual. Even if they had twice as many relationships as heterosexuals do, they could not possibly cause the kind of damage that heterosexual divorce and remarriage does.

A more logical explanation is that these Christians are afraid of the unknown and they want to control it. Heterosexuals have often been uncomfortable with homosexuals. The term "fag" is used to insult one's manliness; and "dyke" to insult one's femininity. Society in general has not been kind to its homosexual members. But with the addition of Fundamentalist Religious fervor, and the ability to rationalize their own sins away, the Religious Right have turned the fear of homosexuality into a holy war against a portion of the population. Of course, the Religious Right claim they are not trying to hurt anyone. They use phrases like, "We must love the sinner but hate the sin." But as Einstein said and Christ demonstrated, "You cannot simultaneously say that you love someone and use your power against them."

Christ did not use his power to legislate against the sinful people of his day. Instead he went drinking with them.19 Christ did not condemn the person caught with her pants down - literally. Instead he embarrassed her detractors by saying that anyone who had not sinned could throw the first stone at her - and not one got thrown.20 Christ did not raise money for his causes by claiming that those involved in the sinful lifestyles of his day were ganging up to "destroy the family." Instead he invited them to be his friends and followers.21

And perhaps that is the most logical explanation yet. Playing on people's fears is a great way to make money. Advertisers use it every day. If you don't want dandruff, use this. If you don't want to smell bad, use that. If you don't want to end up sick or dead, eat our stuff instead of their stuff. And if you don't want homosexuals taking over our schools, support our cause by sending in your donations. Fear sells. Whether intentional or not, the truth is the Religious Right rake in a great deal of money every time they claim homosexuals are threatening our nation's families, or worse, our children. The former vice-president of Focus on the Family, a leading Religious Right organization, stated in his book, "James Dobson's War on America" (Dobson is the founder and president) that when their donations went down, they could simply broadcast a scary special about the gay agenda (or the evil women's movement or the even more evil abortion rights groups - but never remarried people since that would drive away nearly half of their listeners) and their revenues would increase substantially.22

This is how they "love the sinner," by abusing them in order to make money? The term "mockery" doesn't begin to describe the trashing these so-called Christians are doing to God's name. The Religious Right should get down on their knees and beg the forgiveness of every homosexual man or woman they have publicly condemned on their way to the bank. They should beg God's forgiveness for being just like the wicked servant in Christ's story, forgiven of their own sinful lifestyles but unwilling to forgive the lifestyles of their fellow human beings. And then they should stop their self-righteous rhetoric and remember that for a moment in their savior's life, as he hung on a cross for everyone's sin, that Christ was gay.


- End -
More Options

Endnotes:
1 Romans 3:23, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

2 Romans 6:23, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

3 John 3:16, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

4 Romans 3:24, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

5 Mark 16:6, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

6 Romans 10:9, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

7 Matthew 6:9-14, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

8 John 3:16, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

9 Mark 16:16, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

10 Ephesians 2:8, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

11 2 Corinthians 5:17, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

12 Galations 5:22, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

13 Romans 6:1-23, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

14 1 John 1:8, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

15 Romans 7:14-15, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

16 Romans 6:10-11, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

17 Matthew 7:21-23, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

18 Matthew 18:23-35, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

19 Luke 7:34, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

20 John 8:3-9, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

21 Luke 7:34, Bible, Revised Standard Edition

22 Gil Alexander-Moegerle, James Dobson's War on America, 1987, p. 42.





About the Author
Brian Elroy McKinley
Email: brian@mckinley.net

And that I hope will be the end of discussion about religious beliefs here. If you want to discuss religion, then perhaps it's better to do it in Luckygal's "Homosexuality and the Bible" thread because this is not the thread to do it in.

We are here to discuss about the violence against gays here in America such as what happened to Matthew Shepard, Billy Jack Gaither, Brandon Teena and others, not religious held beliefs.



 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 12:28 PM on April 7, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

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[b]Quote from Valerie Martinez at 12:28 PM on April 7, 2004 To answer your question, no I am not homosexual. Do you accuse everyone on here who defends homosexuals as being homosexual?


Just trying to figure out the company I have been keeping here.

1Co 15:33 - Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

[b]Quote from Valerie Martinez at 12:28 PM on April 7, 2004  You are turning this thread into a religious debate instead of disscussing about what this thread was meant to be discussed about - violence agaisnt homosexuals.


Seems to me that is exactly what my posts were about.  The violence God does to homosexuals.

[b]Quote from Valerie Martinez at 12:28 PM on April 7, 2004  By the way, you might want to read Luke 16:18 because Christ specifically said that remarrying after divorce is a form of adultery.


Exactly when did I say I agreed with remarriage after divorce?
And as for your article by Brian Elroy McKinley, I am an imitator of the inspired word not the uninspired word.  I think if you read Romans chapter 1 you will find that the homosexuals and the supports of homosexuals are for a rude awakening.




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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 12:55 PM on April 7, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

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Quote from unworthy servant at 12:55 PM on April 7, 2004 :

"Seems to me that is exactly what my posts were about.  The violence God does to homosexuals."

Violence is always wrong. This is about violence committed by people such as killers like Arron McKinney, Russell Henderson and Benjamin Matthew Williams, not about what God does. Otherwise you're saying here is that God or you don't have a heart to care about violence commted against gay people. Matthew Shepard was just a young 21-year-old kid and his family loved him very much. You think his family would want to be hearing about you saing that he deserved what he got and that he is "burning in Hell". Your thoughts are basically summing up what Brian Elroy McKinley said, your views and comments here are not proving him wrong, you're just proving him more right than ever with your logic of thinking.


"And as for your article by Brian Elroy McKinley, I am an imitator of the inspired word not the uninspired word.  I think if you read Romans chapter 1 you will find that the homosexuals and the supports of homosexuals are for a rude awakening."

And I suppose that the many couples who were remarried after divorce and the preachers who married them are not in for a "rude awakening"? I suppose you also believe Leviticus saying that we shouldn't eat pork or garments of the same cloth and those who do are in for a "rude awakening"? By the way, Paul did criticise Paul writtings saying they were hard to follow. The bottom line is to use the bible for hope, not criticise others saying you're better than others and you know for sure you will inherit God's kingdom.

Have a heart and stop condeming people on here like Fred "God Hates Fags" Phelps.

Also keep in mind there are many young kids out there who are gay, and you're not doing anything right if you're saying that they are not wanted in this world!


Again, if you want to discuss religion, do it in the "Homosexuality and the Bible" thread.







 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 1:20 PM on April 7, 2004 | IP
Father of a gay son

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Valerie, I'm sorry I've been gone for awhile. The truth is you're right, you have the right to believe what you want but no one should use their religious beliefs to bash others.

"The violence God does to homosexuals"

This is not teaching that God is a loving being. This seems more islamic becuase islam believes God is more a God of wrath than a God of love. This doesn't seem like Christianity at all.

"God send His nice plagues, like AIDS, to cleanse the land of homosexuals."

God is taught as as a loving, caring person not someone who wants peope dead!

This is basically what you said about what McKinley was saying, people who hide behind the bible to condemn others instead of learning to love. My son is gay, got a problem with that?

The truth is religion should be used for good purposes not evil like the crusades or violence that has happened between Catholics and Protestants in the past. Mel Gibson's film is causing controversy as well, but that's no excuse to inspire violence because of it.

 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 2:03 PM on April 7, 2004 | IP
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Quote from Valerie Martinez at 1:20 PM on April 7, 2004 :Violence is always wrong.


So God committing violence against gays is wrong?  So you found sin in God?

Jeremiah 2:5 Thus says the LORD, "  What injustice did your fathers find in Me, That they went far from Me And walked after emptiness  and became empty?

Micah 6:3" My people, what have I done to you, And how have I wearied you? Answer Me.

Otherwise you're saying here is that God or you don't have a heart to care about violence commted against gay people.


If homosexuality or homosexuals were pleaseing to God, then God would afford them protection.  The violence against them speaks for itself.

Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, He makes  even his enemies to be at peace with him.

And I suppose that the many couples who were remarried after divorce and the preachers who married them are not in for a "rude awakening"?


Is this post about adulterers?  I seem to see them on the EXCLUDED list, also.

Also keep in mind there are many young kids out there who are gay, and you're not doing anything right if you're saying that they are not wanted in this world!


I shouldn't tell them that they are excluded from the kingdom of heaven by their imitating the unrighteous?

Proverbs 1:7-19 The  fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction. Hear,  my son, your father's instruction And do not forsake your mother's teaching; Indeed, they are a graceful wreath to your head And ornaments  about your neck. My son, if sinners entice  you, Do  not consent. If they say, "Come with us, Let us lie  in wait for blood, Let us ambush  the innocent without cause; Let us swallow  them alive like Sheol, Even whole, as those who go  down to the pit; We will find all {kinds} of precious wealth, We will fill our houses with spoil; Throw in your lot with us, We shall all have one purse," My son, do  not walk in the way with them. Keep  your feet from their path, For their feet run to evil And they hasten to shed blood. Indeed, it is useless to spread the {baited} net In the sight of any bird; But they lie  in wait for their own blood; They ambush their own lives. So are the ways of everyone who gains by violence; It takes away the life of its possessors.  

I shouldn't tell children that are homosexuals that their lifestyle is a grief, destruction and shame to righteous parents?

Proverbs 19:13A foolish son is destruction to his father, And the contentions of a wife are a constant dripping.

Proverbs 10:1The proverbs of Solomon. A wise son makes a father glad, But a foolish son is a grief to his mother.

Proverbs 17:25A foolish son is a grief to his father And bitterness to her who bore him.

Finally, I shouldn't correct them and to encourage them to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Proverbs 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother.

I can see your definition of "love" is very different than mine.
















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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 6:57 PM on April 7, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

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Quote from unworthy servant at 6:57 PM on April 7, 2004 :

"So God committing violence against gays is wrong?  So you found sin in God?"

"If homosexuality or homosexuals were pleaseing to God, then God would afford them protection.  The violence against them speaks for itself."

God is supposed to be about love not hate. If AIDS is supposed to punish gays does that mean that God loves lesbian women since the majority of AIDS  in the gay community is mostly gay men? Is breast cancer supposed to be a punishment from God against women? Is chicken pox supposed to be a punishment from God against young children? What about young Ryan White, the young AIDS poster boy who got AIDS at age 13 and died at age 18, he wasn't gay but did he deserve to die from AIDS because God wanted to punish him?

"I shouldn't tell them that they are excluded from the kingdom of heaven by their imitating the unrighteous?"

Young kids who are gay often go through a difficult time trying to find acceptance in this world, like being harrassed and beat up in school. That's why a lot of them end up having suicidal thoughts. People like you are just part of the reason some of these kids end up going through depression. You're just being heatless.

"I shouldn't tell children that are homosexuals that their lifestyle is a grief, destruction and shame to righteous parents?"

Kids need a lot of love in this world. And telling them to be ashamed of themselves for something about them that they didn't ask for is not the way a parent in their right mind would think.

"I can see your definition of "love" is very different than mine."

Exactly, because I don't show ignorance and pride in hatred disguissed as your "family values".  

If you have hatred against gay people because you think God hates gays remember what was said in John 15:18 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you", Mark 12:31 " And the second is like, namely this, thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these", and Mark 12:33 "And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

You reming me of other so called "Christians" who hate Jews just because they blame them for killing Jesus.



















(Edited by Valerie Martinez 4/12/2004 at 12:30 PM).
 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 12:27 PM on April 12, 2004 | IP
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When all else fails the unrighteous and the supporters of the unrighteous throw out the false charge at the righteous of being the "haters".  Nothing new under the sun.


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 11:09 PM on April 12, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

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Quote from unworthy servant at 11:09 PM on April 12, 2004 :
When all else fails the unrighteous and the supporters of the unrighteous throw out the false charge at the righteous of being the "haters".  Nothing new under the sun.


*Sigh* Oh well, you just can't change the minds of those who seem to believe God always talks to them telling them they're always right and everyone else is always wrong. I've dealt with people like this before people (those of  you guests who are reading this), you just can't show them the light.

Time to move on here because I have more important issues to discuss in the anti-semitic and violence against abortionists threads than this thread.


 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 12:12 PM on April 14, 2004 | IP
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So the secret weapon (false accusation of hate) didn't work and now you are upset. Once again the Scriptures make the student of the Scriptures wise:

Psalms 119    
119:98Your commandments R3936 make me wiser than my enemies, For they are ever mine. F1358

119:99I have more insight than all my teachers, For Your testimonies are my meditation. R3937

119:100I understand more R3938 than the aged, Because I have observed R3939 Your precepts.

119:101I have restrained R3940 my feet from every evil way, That I may keep Your word.

119:102I have not turned R3941 aside from Your ordinances, For You Yourself have taught me.

119:103How sweet R3942 are Your words F1359 to my taste! F1360 {Yes, sweeter} than honey to my mouth!

119:104From Your precepts I get R3943 understanding; Therefore I hate R3944 every false way.




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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 12:27 AM on April 16, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

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Quote from unworthy servant at 12:27 AM on April 16, 2004 :

"So the secret weapon (false accusation of hate) didn't work and now you are upset."

False accustation? Wrong again, it's your logic of thinking that makes you think the way you do.

"Once again the Scriptures make the student of the Scriptures wise"

Yeah right. Plus it shows you just couldn't pay attention to my paragraph in my last post which I said "Time to move on here because I have more important issues to discuss in the anti-semitic and violence against abortionists threads than this thread."

It shows you just don't pay attention or listen. So with that being said, I hope you get the message now.









 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 12:03 PM on April 16, 2004 | IP
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Don't get mad just because I am correct about your false accusation.

Ga 4:16 - So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?

I guess your "more important issues" weren't that important since you are back.  Oh, I am paying attention and having a very good time.


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Posts: 196 | Posted: 6:49 PM on April 16, 2004 | IP
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If homosexuality or homosexuals were pleaseing to God, then God would afford them protection.  The violence against them speaks for itself.


Well the same goes for heterosexuals as well.   HUMANS ARE HUMANS!  It does not matter how they think, they are still HUMANS!  It is not violence against HOMOSEXUALS, it is violence against a HUMAN!  Everyone keeps placing these labels on people.  If someone attacked you, they would not be attacking a Christian.  They would be attacking a HUMAN!  So-called HOMOSEXUALS are not a different species, so why treat them as such?
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 04:51 AM on April 17, 2004 | IP
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Quote from ffaldo at 04:51 AM on April 17, 2004 :
Well the same goes for heterosexuals as well.   HUMANS ARE HUMANS!  It does not matter how they think, they are still HUMANS!  It is not violence against HOMOSEXUALS, it is violence against a HUMAN!  Everyone keeps placing these labels on people.  If someone attacked you, they would not be attacking a Christian.  They would be attacking a HUMAN!  So-called HOMOSEXUALS are not a different species, so why treat them as such?


Oh, but there are righteous humans and unrighteous humans.  The righteous humans will enter the kingdom of heaven and the unrighteous humans will not.  That is why you are hiding your "label" of homosexual since you don't want people to see your true form.





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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 07:55 AM on April 17, 2004 | IP
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How does a label describe a person as unrighteous or righteous?

There are heterosexuals who are unrighteous, which you have said, so to say that an entire section of society is unrighteous based on personal and for the most part uncontrollable attraction does not follow your logic.  NONE of this is stated anywhere in the untampered version of the bible.  

Also, something that you have not shown is that homosexuals are unrighteous.  You have only provided verses from revised versions of the Bible that mention homosexual behaviors.

Again, it is a HUMAN that makes decisions or has reactions, not a personality.

Also, HOMOSEXUAL does not describe a person in totality.  It does not describe their lifestyle, including their actions or inactions, their personalities, or any other behavorial characteristic.  Homosexual is MERELY an attraction to the same sex.  This attraction has been shown to NOT be able to be TURNED OFF! It is not GOD who created homosexuality.  Homosexuality is most likely a developmental process, that is uncontrollable.  It is a personal behavioral characteristic, not a societal characteristic.  So to judge ONE person based on a group of millions is unjust correlation.

Also, I am not denying nor saying that I am a homosexual.  I have attractions and that is it.  I could call myself "kucdsia" and it would not change who I am or describe who I am.

A WORD does NOT cause unrighteousness.  ACTIONS do!  So to murder and hate based on no ACTION is wrong.  They are MURDERING and HATING a HUMAN based on a WORD!  I could call you a WORD and thus would be perfectly fine using your logic.  It isn't too sound is it?
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 01:54 AM on April 18, 2004 | IP
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Quote from ffaldo at 01:54 AM on April 18, 2004 :
Also, I am not denying nor saying that I am a homosexual.  I have attractions and that is it.  I could call myself "kucdsia" and it would not change who I am or describe who I am. . .
A WORD does NOT cause unrighteousness.  ACTIONS do!  


Yeah, and what are you attracted to? Being a male ( I presume you to be a male) are you attracted sexually to another male?  Is that your action?

By the way the violence of God has fell on the porn industry according to the news.  The star fornicators have contracted AIDS!!!  The plague has returned.

BTW your word "kucdsia" turns up no matches on a google search.  How about the definition for your  "kucdsia"?  If it is a foreign word, what language is it?


(Edited by unworthy servant 4/18/2004 at 09:42 AM).


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Posts: 196 | Posted: 09:04 AM on April 18, 2004 | IP
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Is that your action?


What you described is not an action.  An action needs something to happen.  If someone is sexually attracted to another of the same sex, what is it that they actually do!  They have a feeling, an attraction as you said.  This is a REACTION, not an action.

 The plague has returned


It never left.  It is spreading faster and faster throughout the "heterosexual" community.  Contracting AIDS has nothing to do with the wrath of God.  Someone contracts the disease and gives it to the next person.  Where does GOD come in?  They just don't get the disease out of the blue.

kucdsia


Exactly!  It isn't a word.  I made it up.  If you understood what I was saying, you would have realized that the word does not describe me.  The same as homosexual.  One word would not describe someone.
 


Posts: 73 | Posted: 02:48 AM on April 19, 2004 | IP
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Quote from ffaldo at 02:48 AM on April 19, 2004 :
Exactly!  It isn't a word.  I made it up.  If you understood what I was saying, you would have realized that the word does not describe me.  The same as homosexual.  One word would not describe someone.


"Excluded" is the word that describes you perfectly since you and your supporter of homosexuality are excluded from the kingdom.





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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 09:20 AM on April 19, 2004 | IP
Valerie Martinez

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Quote from unworthy servant at 6:49 PM on April 16, 2004 :

"Don't get mad just because I am correct about your false accusation."

Who tells you you are correct? An imaginery friend or is it your obsessive compulsive disorder which makes you think so?






 


Posts: 36 | Posted: 12:04 PM on April 23, 2004 | IP
    
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