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   Gay Rights Debates
     Humanbeings lack of backbone
       The noticable disapprearing act of Humanbeing

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JustineCredible

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Funny how HumanBeing disappears whenever anyone has an opposing view or in anyway disputes his/her information.
I would guess HumanBeing has a "confrontation" disorder and wishes to project the idea of disorders on everything that scares him.

HUMANBEING: try being true to you screen name and behave like one. Answer those who oppose you, or just grow up and admit you have wrongly attacked when something frieghtens you. [center]


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"All those who believe in physcokenetics ~ Raise My Hand!"
 


Posts: 24 | Posted: 11:11 AM on August 11, 2004 | IP
HumanBeing

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This is to inform the audience that JustineCredible's post about me is a mistaken impression of me- based on his/her own personal limitation of intellect and intuition.

JustineCredible- by way of his/her post- may be projecting his/her own self here...

For consideration/reference...

Projection:

"A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he/she him/herself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."


"The externalization of internal unconscious wishes, desires or emotions on to other people."


"Attributing one's own undesirabe traits to other people or agencies."


"The individual perceives in others the motive he/she denies having him/herself."


"People attribute their own undesirable traits onto others. An individual who unconsciously recognises his/her aggressive tendencies may then see other people acting in an excessively aggressive way."


"Projection is the opposite defense mechanism to identification. One projects one's own unpleasant feelings onto someone else and blames them for having thoughts that the one who is projecting really has."

If he/she only knew...

JustineCredible is always welcome to check with me before presenting him/herself in this public arena- in this pathetic manner.

I sense that he/she has some form of personal challenge to resolve.

I offer compassion and forgiveness- wishing him/her all the best.


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HumanBeing
 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 3:51 PM on August 11, 2004 | IP
joebrummer

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I with Justine as usual!  I think that humanbeing is a closet case.  WHy else would this person spend so much time debating homosexuality, if they weren't trying to convince themself it is wrong, that it is a choice and you can change.   No you cannot change being gay.  


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www.joebrummer.com
 


Posts: 29 | Posted: 12:33 AM on September 29, 2004 | IP
Sol

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There never has been, and never will be any proof that you cannot change being gay.

If someone has homosexual feelings, but also has a true desire to change, and is willing to put in the necessary time and effort, there is no doubt in my mind that they could change.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 04:08 AM on January 9, 2005 | IP
Jaxian

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All right Sol, I posted a couple responses to your earlier posts, but it is becoming apparent to me that they are each really just one line that says, "Homosexuality is evil", many of which brought up threads that are years old.

So, I'm hoping we can perhaps have a more detailed discussion of homosexuality, why you consider it evil, and why I consider it evil to think that homosexuality is wrong.

I thought perhaps we could start with this post.  Why don't you tell me how you think a homosexual can change his or her sexual orientation.  If you find that difficult, try telling me how you would change your sexuality from heterosexual to homosexual.

Also, if you can, I'd like to know why you consider homosexuality evil.
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 8:06 PM on January 9, 2005 | IP
Sol

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Alright, fine.

First of all, I am a Christian.  Part of my religious beliefs is that any sexuality, besides that which is between a man and a woman who are married to each other, is immoral.  Despite what anyone might say, that's a perfectly legitimate reason to feel the way I do, and that does not make me a 'blind follower.'

At any rate, I still don't condone violence or cruelty towards homosexuals either.  Anyone who does so is hypocritical, because even though the purpose of their actions is to punish immorality, they themselves are no better for resorting to violence.

Secondly, I believe that people should be judged based on their actions, and not their feelings.  Therefore, if someone has homosexual desires, but they choose not to act on those desires, then in my eyes that person is not a homosexual.  They are instead a person who honorably struggles with their own feelings to do the right thing.  That's why I say that homosexuals can change.  No matter what urges someone has, they always have the ability to not give in to them.

I admit that I don't know for a fact whether the homosexual feelings themselves can be changed, and anyone who experiences such feelings has my utmost sympathy.

That is not, however, an excuse for them to commit immoral acts.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 07:24 AM on January 10, 2005 | IP
Jaxian-

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Hey Sol, thanks for responding.  All right, here goes:

First of all, I am a Christian.  Part of my religious beliefs is that any sexuality, besides that which is between a man and a woman who are married to each other, is immoral.  Despite what anyone might say, that's a perfectly legitimate reason to feel the way I do, and that does not make me a 'blind follower.'


I cannot fault you for your religious beliefs.  I am willing to debate that you should not make your religious belief, but that's a topic for a different thread, I think.  I'd like to address how you treat homosexuality because of your religious beliefs in this thread.

At any rate, I still don't condone violence or cruelty towards homosexuals either.  Anyone who does so is hypocritical, because even though the purpose of their actions is to punish immorality, they themselves are no better for resorting to violence.


Those who would condone such an act are more than just hypocritical; causing violence to people who have harmed no one is morally evil.  And it's not just one of those minor evils, either; it's the pure kind.

Needless to say, I'm glad you don't condone such activity!  Yet I also want to make sure that you don't feel that this alone can make one generous or accepting.  Not condoning violence is good, but it is still wrong to hurt someone in other ways.  I'll try to explain why I think standing against gay rights does that.

Secondly, I believe that people should be judged based on their actions, and not their feelings.  Therefore, if someone has homosexual desires, but they choose not to act on those desires, then in my eyes that person is not a homosexual.  They are instead a person who honorably struggles with their own feelings to do the right thing.  That's why I say that homosexuals can change.  No matter what urges someone has, they always have the ability to not give in to them.


Absolutely.  But you are operating under the assumption that the homosexual believes his or her actions to be immoral.  Or even if you do not assume this, I think you are not considering it correctly.

Homosexuals generally have a different religion than you do.  They might be Christians, Buddhists, Seculuar Humanists, or one of many other religions.  Some believe that it is wrong to have sex before marriage, some do not.  But almost all of them believe that it is morally fine to have sexual relations with someone of the same sex.

So why does that matter?  Well, it matters because when you say that a homosexual should honorably struggle to do the right thing, you aren't asking them to do what they believe is right.  You are asking them to rid themselves of their religion and adopt yours.

You have not yet stated that you would deny same-sex couples the right to marry, but if you would, then you are effectually telling them that they must convert to your religion and deny the one they love or else lose rights under the law.

If my religion says that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, I am still not justified in telling others they must believe in Jesus Christ or not be granted the same rights I have under the law.  To do so would be to take away their religious freedom.  Surely you believe that same-sex parents have the same needs that opposite-sex parents have, and to deny them rights because their religious beliefs do not line up with yours takes away their religious freedom.

Now, if you do not oppose same-sex marriage and do not support taking away gay rights but only wish to convince people that homosexuality is morally wrong, then I've made a mistake in debating that which we are in agreement on.

I admit that I don't know for a fact whether the homosexual feelings themselves can be changed, and anyone who experiences such feelings has my utmost sympathy.


I too don't know whether homosexual feelings can be changed, though that question partially asks whether one can change the person he or she has fallen in love with.

That is not, however, an excuse for them to commit immoral acts.


You're right, but one needs no excuse to act in a manner that he or she sees as just and good so long as they are not harming anyone.

Hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from a bit better.  Let me know what you think!


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-Jaxian
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 1:09 PM on January 10, 2005 | IP
justforfun000

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There never has been, and never will be any proof that you cannot change being gay.


News flash. You cannot prove a negative.

Example:

There never has been, and never will be any proof that you cannot find Santa Claus.

Now if you had said "There never has been, and never will be any proof that you can change being gay."

That would be possible to argue. You would be technically correct, but ultimately there is MORE evidence that has a far greater weight to it concluding that there is no true changing, only masking and perverting.

If someone has homosexual feelings, but also has a true desire to change, and is willing to put in the necessary time and effort, there is no doubt in my mind that they could change.


Well I'm so glad that you have no doubt. It's too bad we didn't have the ability to make you gay so you could voluntarily prove your hypothesis to your own satisfaction at least.

Alright, fine.

First of all, I am a Christian.


*SHOCKED FACE*

Part of my religious beliefs is that any sexuality, besides that which is between a man and a woman who are married to each other, is immoral.


The magic words. *drumroll* beliefs.


Just for fun, define "immoral" to me please.

Despite what anyone might say, that's a perfectly legitimate reason to feel the way I do, and that does not make me a 'blind follower.'


Legitimate? From a standpoint of freedom of thought, absolutely. I agree.

Doesn't make you a blind follower? You state the REASON, get that thought carefully.., the REASON you believe this is because of religion. Religious beliefs are the antithesis or reason my dear. Christian beliefs don't ask you to understand things. They don't give you explanations. They simply tell you what you must believe with no supporting evidence other than the claim that this thousands of years old book is not only completely inerrant, (which is laughable and extremely easy to disprove), but the ultimate guide to morality.

If that's not the epitome of a "blind follower" I don't know what is. I certainly hope you don't ever wear clothes mixed with different fibres then. Or if you have any children, be prepared to kill them if they show disrespect to you.

Have to be so careful you follow every single jot and tittle of the law you know. Even though homosexuality is mentioned maybe a grand total of oh, 4 times? Maybe 5? There are many, many more quotes regarding all forms of heterosexuality. Be sure to look them up and live every one of them according to form. All sins are equal you know, and they can all keep you from the glory of the lord.  


At any rate, I still don't condone violence or cruelty towards homosexuals either.  Anyone who does so is hypocritical, because even though the purpose of their actions is to punish immorality, they themselves are no better for resorting to violence.


Well since I've been pretty hard on you, I'll say I respect you for this part. Not that I thought otherwise, but it's good to show that you're not completely extreme.


Secondly, I believe that people should be judged based on their actions, and not their feelings.  Therefore, if someone has homosexual desires, but they choose not to act on those desires, then in my eyes that person is not a homosexual.


Fine, you 'believe" this. That's fair to say.

However, it's inaccurate because all you need to be designated as homosexual is the innate attraction in PREFERENCE over the opposite sex. Someone could go through their whole life never having same-sex contact, but if they desired it as a preference than they were always homosexual. They simply denied themselves. Very likely for all the wrong reasons.

That's why I say that homosexuals can change.  No matter what urges someone has, they always have the ability to not give in to them.


That's not change. That's simply suppression and denial.

I admit that I don't know for a fact whether the homosexual feelings themselves can be changed, and anyone who experiences such feelings has my utmost sympathy.


Finally an honest admission. Of course you can't admit it. Because it's not borne out to BE a fact. And don't worry. Thankfully because this world is getting less bigoted with each passing year, (well...at least where theocracies are not in power), homosexuals don't need your sympathy, or anybody else's as much. What they need is understanding and tolerance so that they can live in a world where simply being who and what they are is not condemned as wrong with no good reason.

That is not, however, an excuse for them to commit immoral acts.


Something can only be described as an "excuse" if there is a clear proof of there being a reason something needed to be "excused". Since the burden of proof is on the person postulating that homosexuality is immoral, then until people can come up with undeniable evidence supporting this, it's simply bigotry. Guess what? They still haven't.

Every action is automatically assumed neutral until proven "good" or "bad" and these concepts vary tremendously on culture and beliefs.

People wishing to accept the Bible as the ultimate authority on morality should swallow the reality that their source material is not logical, falsifiable, or in any way valid as a basis for laws and community standards. You can believe what you want, but you don't have the right to shove your beliefs down other people's throats.

People who instead choose to make decision of morality based on common sense, standards of agreed decency that can be moderated by logic and social studies, and logical debate at least have good defence for believing what they believe because it's based on useful and VERIFIABLE information.

If the country's laws were truly put into place based on the Bible, trust me. You wouldn't want to be there. Very few Christians really know the Bible. I read the whole thing. It can be VERY scary.


 


Posts: 16 | Posted: 4:17 PM on January 11, 2005 | IP
aznboiz1993

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To Sol,

No offense to you Sol. However, i know that your religion states this, but it isn't enough reason to actually not legalize gay marriage because of the First Amendment. Just saying.


Oh and is Sol your name because of the game Halo? just asking.
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 12:51 AM on July 7, 2005 | IP
Foeke

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Quote from Sol at 4:24 PM on January 10, 2005 :

I admit that I don't know for a fact whether the homosexual feelings themselves can be changed, and anyone who experiences such feelings has my utmost sympathy.


If only you could be happy for us - I really have no use for sympathy. Why would I want to change what comes naturally to me? People saying I can be attracted sexually to females might aswell say I could change my feelings to fall in love with a turnip. It's not there, it never has been and - I'm afraid I have to burst your bubble here - it never will be.



 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 1:10 PM on January 7, 2006 | IP
    
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