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K8

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Is homosexuality indeed a choice?

Is heterosexuality a choice, for that matter?

Please put foward opinions/arguments.

Thanx :D
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 04:22 AM on April 28, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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There is far to much evidence for both sides for this. It is most likly that for some people it is genetic while for others it is a choice. However there is some speculation that we are all infact a bit of both, some people more than others.

However I said this before on this forum, to be honest I don't think it matters if it is a choice, even if it is a choice we cannot say that it is wrong because it isn't genetic, choosing a religion isn't genetic yet we still allow that. So iether way homosexuality should be allowed in society, and if you disagree with it then ignour it, it isn't effecting you in any way.


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Posts: 301 | Posted: 2:51 PM on April 28, 2005 | IP
Carns

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i dont personally agree with homosexuality, and i dont think its genetic, but i do think you're right in comparing it the fact that religion isn't genetic... however, generally, nuts dont fall very far from their tree's so even though its not genetic scientifically, psychologically speaking it might as well be, since gay's are most probable to raise gays, and children most probably take on their parents religious beliefs (generally speaking)



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 7:57 PM on April 28, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Quote from Carns at 7:57 PM on April 28, 2005 :
since gay's are most probable to raise gays


And your evidence for this is where? many reports have concluded that adopted children will not be influenced into homosexuality.





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Posts: 301 | Posted: 8:08 PM on April 28, 2005 | IP
Carns

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That's just the way i think it will turn out -  in general. There will be obviously be cases where children raised by gays will be straight, just like there are those raised by straights who are gay, but as a rule, i would say the majority of the children raised by gays would choose that lifestyle themselves. i doubt that there aren't enough children raised by gays in the world to conclusively state one way or the other, but based on sayings like "chip off the old block" and "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree" or whatever they are, i think we'll see its true. its more of what i expect to see than evidence that it is what happens.

if you have evidence stating that most children raised from birth to adulthood by gays become straight i'd be interested in seeing it.

now this of course is a peripheral issue anyways, since gay adoptive parents have the right to raise their children however they wish.

if we want to talk about the effect of gay parents on the children a more interesting point to be made is the length of homosexual relationships. Sources i checked turned up average length of relationships all less than 10 years...  depending on the terms of the relationship its lower than that. of course these studies aren't definitive in nature, but they indicate a timeframe that is too short to raise children within. but there is no reason why studies like that should be used to dictate peoples right to try and have a succesfully long relationship right? i mean, some gays have been together for over 30 years.. but this is definately not the norm.




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Posts: 95 | Posted: 10:58 PM on April 28, 2005 | IP
K8

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Quote from Carns at 10:58 PM on April 28, 2005 :
That's just the way i think it will turn out -  in general. There will be obviously be cases where children raised by gays will be straight, just like there are those raised by straights who are gay, but as a rule, i would say the majority of the children raised by gays would choose that lifestyle themselves. i doubt that there aren't enough children raised by gays in the world to conclusively state one way or the other, but based on sayings like "chip off the old block" and "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree" or whatever they are, i think we'll see its true. its more of what i expect to see than evidence that it is what happens.

if you have evidence stating that most children raised from birth to adulthood by gays become straight i'd be interested in seeing it.

now this of course is a peripheral issue anyways, since gay adoptive parents have the right to raise their children however they wish.

if we want to talk about the effect of gay parents on the children a more interesting point to be made is the length of homosexual relationships. Sources i checked turned up average length of relationships all less than 10 years...  depending on the terms of the relationship its lower than that. of course these studies aren't definitive in nature, but they indicate a timeframe that is too short to raise children within. but there is no reason why studies like that should be used to dictate peoples right to try and have a succesfully long relationship right? i mean, some gays have been together for over 30 years.. but this is definately not the norm.




See, this is why i brought up such a topic. Arguments about gay adoption almost always involve the theory that 'the majority of the children raised by gays would choose that lifestyle themselves'.

That is one of the main arguments against gay adoption - that the child will 'adopt' or 'choose' that lifestyle. Basically, if it's a choice, then that's possible. However, if it isn't, then that shouldn't be a problem. So, that's why i asked such a question.

I just think some people who are against homosexuality and/or its practice sometimes want it both ways - that being homosexual is a choice, yet that being heterosexual is natural.

If being heterosexual is, in fact, natural, then how could anyone even have the 'choice' to become homosexual? Would nature not simply dictate their sexual orientation towards heterosexuality?

If homosexuality is indeed a choice, then would heterosexuality then not be one also? If so, then it cannot be stated that heterosexuality is 'the natural way' - we have a choice, and we choose. Simple.

Thoughts, anyone?

 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 06:44 AM on April 29, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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There is alot of evidence scattered about this site for reports on the sexual orientation of children and on the involvement of genetics in gender. The whole nuts don't fall far from a tree thing is more to do with natural genetic parents, rather than adopted.
A very simple point to make on if homosexuality is a choice or not is that with all the anti-homosexuality that there is why would anyone choose to be gay? If you think of your child hood, when you first started to check our girls you didn't also check out guys and then choose your orientation. You checked out girls only. In the same way, homosexuals checked out guys rather than girls. So if it is a choice it is most likly a subconcious choice, which will most likly be decided by your genetics.
Children adopted by homosexulas will not automaticly become gay, they will simpily be more acepting of homosexuals, they will still be checking out girls (or guys if they are female) when they hit pubity.
The whole length of a gay relationship thing isn't really acurate, gay men are not more promiscuese than straight men, this makes no sense what so ever. A gay realtionship will last a similair time as a straight relationship under the situations and condition.

http://www.project100.org/news_alerts_gay-adoption-fact-sheet.htm

This was the first web page I found, there are many others, if you are interested just use google (or any other search engine) and search...

(Edited by Peter87 4/29/2005 at 8:34 PM).


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Posts: 301 | Posted: 8:30 PM on April 29, 2005 | IP
Carns

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I agree with you on this peter, i don't think i said that they automatically become gays, i just think they are far more likely than if they were raised by straight parents... but that in and of itself doesn't make an argument  for or against homosexuality.  i think it's wrong on moral grounds. that said, my moral beliefs affect me alone, and i don't push them on others, it doesn't bother me when people do things i wouldn't based on morality. I do things from time to time that i know i shouldn't... so i'm not anti-gay and what they do or don't do is of no consequence.. on the other hand, if somebody asks me what i think, i'll let them know, but like we talked about in another thread, influence is their choice, if they're influenced, thats up to them.




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Posts: 95 | Posted: 10:29 AM on April 30, 2005 | IP
joebrummer

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However, hundreds of kids with gay parents have been run through the social science mill, poked, prodded, filled out endless questionnaires and interviewed at length. When all the studies published to date are taken individually or as a whole, the results are uniform:

   * There are no significant differences between kids with gay parents and kids with straight parents on a variety of psychological measures, including gender-roles, self-esteem, and more.
   * Kids with gay parents are no more likely than kids with straight parents to be gay themselves. Although in our opinion this begs the question, "so what if we were?"
   * Similarly, when all the studies of lesbian moms and gay dads are analyzed, there are few quantitative differences from their straight counterparts.
   * Research that has looked at the qualitative experiences of gay parents and their kids is scarce…although there are now a few books and a number of articles and shows that deal anecdotally with the experiences of gay parents and their kids.
http://www.colage.org/research/index.html


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Posts: 29 | Posted: 9:50 PM on May 1, 2005 | IP
Mirshann

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Assuming that being homosexual is a choice, then it would be possible for gays to raise gay children, but a lot of it has to do with genetics. One of my friends came up to me the other day, and seemed quite upset. When I asked him what was wrong he said he'd realised he was attracted to males, and he didn't know what to do or who to talk to about it. You understand what the prejudice as far homosexuality goes. Why would he have reacted like that if homosexuality was a choice? Wouldn't he have been more comfortable if he had CHOSEN to be attracted to males. I believe it is as much of a choice as your eye colour, or your voice, or even your parents. What I believe is that all homosexuality is is people being attracted to the same gender, not choosing to be, the only choice they get is to ignore it, or flaunt it. Most would rather remain silent about what they are, because of how people react. But one of the biggest questions I have is...why do people have less trouble with Lesbians than they do gays? Now if any of you can find out an answer to that one in your debate, I'd like to know.


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You all hate me because I'm different. I hate you because you're all the same. You tried to change me to be like you. I just don't want to be lame. Consider this thought, I'm about to say. Where do you think I'd rather be. Off somewhere with someone I love, or here with you taunting me.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 10:05 AM on May 6, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Lesbian/gay males is really a simple answer and it is sick! I can't stand anti-homosexuality it makes no sense apart from the religious connections.
But my theory is that women in general tend to be more acepting to homosexuality. But males are more acepting of gay femals for a few reasons.
1. They are turned on by gay females (however as a male I nether understood this attraction, why want what you can't have?)
2. Everyone is partialy gay (geneticaly) and it is becuase they are unsure of there sexuality and thus are agressive towards homosexuality becuase they are worried about it.
3. For some reason alot of straight males think that gay males are "checking them up" which is simpily wrong, they aren't! Why would they? They aren't going to try it on with a straight man becuase they know they wont suceed. They may think a male is attractive, but thats it.
4. People fear what they don't understand
And thats why I think men are are against gay males rather than gay females. And I think women are more acepting of gays in general but they are if only subconciously more acepting of gay males than females for similair reasons to above.

Thats what I think at least, you have to hate irational fears.


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Posts: 301 | Posted: 4:41 PM on May 6, 2005 | IP
Box of Fox

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Here is a direct source:

My school is about 20% homosexual or bisexual, and about 9% of them are heterosexual. I have two very good friends who are both homosexual. One is heterosexual while the other is not. Both claim that they were born that way, and that neither of their families have had homosexuality through their descedants. They are the first. Hmmmm...
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 01:51 AM on May 11, 2005 | IP
K8

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Well there u go! A real-life case study!

(welcome, by the way!)
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 01:55 AM on May 11, 2005 | IP
objober

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I am gay, I have a lesbian sister. I have two catholic conservative heterosexual parents. I did not make the choice to be socially exiled for who I was, I did not choose to defy the religion I was born into. My sister is often in tears, exclaiming the very same things. We did not choose this.

If I simply CAN'T DO what heterosexual males DO when they come in contact with an attractive female, I think this justifies my sexuality as genetic or the combined result of my psychological stimuli since birth. Either way, I don't see how this is any worse than disallowing a female or black man to vote for what they are without choice.

The only person who dare rightfully decide whether homosexuality IS a choice, is he or she, the gay man himself, or the lesbian herself.
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 11:55 AM on May 11, 2005 | IP
K8

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Thanx for your input - it's true, only those who are homosexual can testify truly on such a subject. Trust me, i know it's not a choice, and one day those who believe it is will come to their senses.

btw, Welcome!
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 02:28 AM on May 12, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Also the intensly huge amounts of scientific research which all shows that it is a choice.

(Edited by Peter87 5/12/2005 at 11:40 AM).


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 11:39 AM on May 12, 2005 | IP
rob74696

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where can I find this research data peter87? I happen to be gay and would be very interested in how scientists discovered that I chose to be gay.

I am not being sarcastic, I would be genuinly interested in reading it and seeing where they got their data from.

Rob


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Posts: 41 | Posted: 2:53 PM on May 15, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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sorry I type-oed that, well I thought I had, then changed it now have realised that it was right in the first place... I'll repeat myself (with the change)
Also the masses of scientific research that shows it isn't a choice.
Sorry about that, but read a few more of my posts and you'll see I do understand and have quoted the research before, its not hard to find on google.
Again I apologise for the confusion. I can't stand anti-homosexuality, I'm not homosexual it doesn't really effect me apart from one of my friends is bi-sexual but grrr... I just hate discrimination of any kind.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 4:04 PM on May 15, 2005 | IP
Carns

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well im not anti-gay. i dont discriminate against gays. I personally think it's wrong from a moral standpoint.

perhaps we should discuss a less-controversial less-personal topic in order to remove some bias that exists....

most people will agree that pedophilia is wrong. raping innocent children is pretty low in most everybodies book. even prisoners will kill these pedophiles. Now, if i think that pedophilia is wrong, does that mean i discriminate against those people? does it REALLY matter if they choose to or are pre-wired to find children attractive? i mean, in the case of gays, its more controversial, but if we discuss a perversion that majority agrees on (for the time being) we see how silly it is to call people who don't agree with homosexuality descriminators.

Rob, and whoever else reading this forum who is gay - how does my belief on the morality of your actions discriminate against you? There are things i have done in the past myself that i believe are wrong, am i a self-discriminator because of it?

I know that there exists large numbers of people who do discriminate against gays, let's be clear on that. But simply because somebody has grounds for dismissing homosexual behaviour as immoral in their eyes does not in any way mean that they are a discriminator of gays. i am friends with gays as well, lets be clear of the distinction between people and deed.

if i was playing cards with my family, and my brother cheats, even though we've all agreed that cheating is wrong, does that mean i think my brother is wrong? of course not, the deed is what we dislike, not the person... its very simple. so please be careful not to paint everybody with this wide brush of discrimination, because that is simply not true.

hopefully this is viewed as informative or insightful rather than accusatory because i am not about to throw any books at anybody



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 4:56 PM on May 15, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Nice post carns, I cant disagree with your moral stand point more on homosexuality, but its good to note your not discrimative of gays, where ass unworthy most certainly seems to be.
Although lets not put homosexuality in the same basket as pedophilia. There are oceans of differance.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 6:00 PM on May 15, 2005 | IP
Carns

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i agree totally, but chose pedophilia simply because we can all agree its wrong, as opposed to homosexuality, where there are clearly differences of opinion



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 8:32 PM on May 15, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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I was pondering in what sense homosexuality is not a choice. I do agree it isn't a choice. However it seems strange to be in genetics, becuase homosexuals come from non homosexual familys, however you could say it was a resesive gene, however you would thus expect there to be significantly more off spring as homosexual. Or if it is a gene mutation. However then you would expect there to be decreasing amounts of homosexuals, in that due to obvious sexual prefrances they are very unlikly to pass on the mutation, in that case you would expect a decrease in homosexuality, however we seem to see a rise in homosexuality. However this could be countered by saying that we have had this gene for generations however people have not acted upon those feelings, however now there is much more tolerance (not enougth... but more). Does anyone now of any surveys on children of parents that one has later realised they are homosexual, very niche survey I know but it would be interesting to see.
Alternatly it could be subconcious mental conditioning, which I'm not going to pretend I know alot about. However what kind of mental conditioning you ask? It is clearly not just being around homosexuals, becuase otherwise children adopted by homosexuals would almost all turn out gay, this is not the case and is totaly ilogical if considered. Or is it an experiance that triggers it.
What we must consider is if it is genetic, or subconsious. However most genetic traits that we get are from one or both parents. But subconsious is technically still a "choice" and would be environmentaly influenced.
So does anybody have any knowledge of this becuase I had nether thought about how it was not a "choice" I would have thought that it wasn't a choice due to the intolerance suffered today.
I hope my posts hasn't been insulting to anyone becuase that was not the intention at all, and I was contradicting myself alot but I always tend to do that, as I think of one thing, and then think no wait a second that can't be true, or actualy it could be if it was like this....


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 11:40 AM on May 16, 2005 | IP
Mirshann

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Well being bisexual myself, and continuing on what I had to say earlier...This can't possibly be a choice...you know how long my mom was yelling at me for this? She was saying i couldn't possibly be and how it was wrong and everything...but her best friend was gay? I think people can accept it more in others than in their own families especially. How does that work? Either way...moving on...Hi...lol, I think that not only is it genetic but it could also have to do with a subconscience decision in some. Notice how some women are straight until they are raped or something and might turn bi or les, happened to my best friend. So it isn't always genetic but with most cases it is.


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You all hate me because I'm different. I hate you because you're all the same. You tried to change me to be like you. I just don't want to be lame. Consider this thought, I'm about to say. Where do you think I'd rather be. Off somewhere with someone I love, or here with you taunting me.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 9:42 PM on May 22, 2005 | IP
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Just because a women is raped won't make her gay.  Flawed logic really.  Lets look closer at this logic.

If someone doesn't like vanilla, but has a bad experience with strawberry.  Will the bad experience make them like vanilla.  NO it will make them stay away from strawberry..That where that bad experiences lies.

Let have another example.  Maybe a more simple one.

If I am not attracted to women, and I am attracted to men.   Suddenly I have a bad experience with a man.  Why would that suddenly make me like women.  It won't it will shy me from men.

Get it!


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Posts: 29 | Posted: 10:09 PM on May 22, 2005 | IP
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A few days ago one of my very good friends (let's call him "Calvin") came straight out and admited to me that he is gay. He's known since he was 12 years old (he's now 18 so that's 6 years)

My reaction:

However when he told one of his most trusted teachers she turned around and said quite plainly "Oh no you're not."
-Oh yes he is, ma'am, oh yes he is.

He said it himself, he has tried to lead a straight life, but it always felt as though he was living a lie. HE HAS TRIED TO CHANGE. But he simply can NOT. It kills me because i have to watch him struggle against closed-minded Homophobics. Now he REFUSES to get into a relationship of any kind.

I have been brought up as a Christian so i understand the religions arguments and the topic of choice and i have done a lot of research on the topic so i do see BOTH sides of the argument.

But again and again i come up with the same question.

Why would anyone CHOOSE to be gay?

I supose if a guy has spent more time with his mother and is not as close to his father, or if someone has been sexually abused it may make SOME sense to turn to homosexuality.

But those cases aside i don't think anyone would choose to be gay.

"Calvin" says it feels more as though a choice had been made FOR him, but most defenitly not BY him.

All i know is, he is still one of my very dearest friends and i will NOT treat him any differently, becuase he is still the same kind, empathetic, sweet, good-natured guy.

Besides, you know what they say; gay guys make the best friends.



(Edited by InsideOut 6/25/2005 at 07:24 AM).


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Posts: 3 | Posted: 07:20 AM on June 25, 2005 | IP
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My parents are convince that being a "homosexual" is a choice...they are right...I choose which guy I want to be with on which night...I also choose not to see if a female is right for me...why would I want to find out if something is a somewhat okay option, when I know something else is perfect...why bother???


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Posts: 9 | Posted: 11:52 AM on October 21, 2005 | IP
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Just thought I'd add my 2 cents into this debate.  I am gay myself, and I never made this choice on my own.  Just let me get something out of the way.  Sure, I find females somewhat attractive, but I don't think I'd ever be able to have sex with one if it came down to that.  But that's beside the point.  I never made this decision, and on the very contrary of the argument that "Gay couples raise gay children", my father is extremely homophobic.  He was raised by strongly Jehovah's Witness parents, which turned him into what he is today.  Now, he has had to deal with a transsexual brother, who got the operation and everything, and now he's a woman (the brother, I mean).  That's beside the point, but still somewhat relevant.  If I had had a choice, then I would not have chose to be gay, or even bisexual (which is what I once considered myself), because I know that the homosexual lifestyle is extremely hard.  I have been attracted to males for as long as I can remember (ever since puberty started), and never consciously made that choice.  Now, some people may say that I'm not old enough to be making that decision (I just turned 16 on the 19th of December), but I know what I feel in my heart, and I know what is right for me.  I've been living with homosexual feelings for over 4 1/2 years now, and I think I know what is a choice and what is not, by now.  Thank you for taking the time to read this.


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Posts: 3 | Posted: 5:23 PM on January 7, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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As there is much debate about homosexuality being a choice, we need to discuss the choice of being religious. Essentially all the anti-gay rhetoric is based on religious proscriptions against homosexuality, so I think it’s fair game.

Christian weren’t born that way. You chose to be that way. You were recruited into religion by others who promoted it and wanted you to be that way for your own good. Please comment on how whether something being a choice or not matters. If it does, why do we promote religion? There is no evidence that being religious makes you a better person, and there is tons of history demonstrating the harm religion does to society.

The rest of the rhetoric is from folks who don’t understand the difference between opinion or not liking something and fact. There is no evidence that gays are predators, make bad parents or cause society any harm, except harming the sensibilities of those who don’t like the homosexuals. There is, in face, much evidence to the contrary. http://www.apa.org/topics/sbehaviorsub1.html

Lastly, can someone please state one, single, tangible, objective way in which same sex marriage actually and literally harms the institution of marriage?

 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 6:13 PM on February 22, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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There is no evidence that being religious makes you a better person, and there is tons of history demonstrating the harm religion does to society.

Actually, there is historical evidence that immoral people will use religion as their excuse when nothing else is available.  Most of the attrocities that you can quote that were done by someone under the guise of religion were also done by other people that just used other (or sometimes no) excuses.  

Lastly, can someone please state one, single, tangible, objective way in which same sex marriage actually and literally harms the institution of marriage?

Depends on your definition of marriage.  Most people get their idea of (and ideals of) marriage from their religious background.  Outside of religion, what is the purpose of "marriage".  A life-long commitment is made in the heart regardless of what some peice of paper says.  There alot of people who do get married who didn't mean the lifelong commitment that they pledged (else the divorce rate would be zero).  There is a reason that most marriages are done "by the power vested in me by God and the state of ___".  It is a religious institution in the first place.   All the legal implications and tax breaks came long after the institution of marriage.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:32 PM on February 22, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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To EMyers.

1. You are supporting, rather than refuting my view of religion. Because of the nature of blind faith, all it takes is an evil and perhaps charismatic person to lead otherwise good people into doing terrible things. Anyway the forum is about choice. You didn't repond to my question. Isn't religion a choice, and if so how does that have a bearing on its importance?

2. No it doesn't depend upon my definition of marriage. I am talking about the legal right to marriage, which is the present debate in this country. I don't know why you confine marriage only to the realm of religion. If that were the case, why all the legislation, initiatives and constitution amendments happening? Anyway, you never answered the question about the specific harm that would come to marriage by legalizing same sex marriages.
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 1:12 PM on February 23, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Blind faith has nothing to do with religion.  And yes, you have a choice to accept truth or deny it.  I choose to accept.

Marriage is by definition... "(noun) The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife." (from the dictionary)  Allowing it between two people of the same sex is to change the definition.  Marriage would no longer, by its very definition, marriage.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 4:14 PM on February 23, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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It seems to me your argument is this:

Given that presently the definition of marriage is the union of a man and a woman, if we changed that definition to include same-sex couples, the harm that would come to marriage is that the definition would be changed.




(Edited by thelmoose 2/24/2006 at 2:16 PM).
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 12:37 PM on February 24, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Present?  It is THE definition of the word.  It is what it is.  Same-sex marriage is an oxymoron.  If I wanted to change the definition of "car" to include horses, people would think I'm off my rocker.  But people want to change the definition of marriage to include same-sex unions.  Same-sex unions are not marriage anymore than horses are cars, no matter whether you change the definition or not.  I thought that was obvious.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 3:00 PM on February 24, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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Do you think you are clever, or something, EMyers?
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 3:32 PM on February 24, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Cute.  If I say no, then I'm saying I'm not clever (bright or mentally quick) which makes me look like a moron.  If I say yes, then I look arrogant.  I see someone has been studying pre-law.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 9:13 PM on February 24, 2006 | IP
K8

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Quote from EMyers at 3:00 PM on February 24, 2006 :
Present?  It is THE definition of the word.  It is what it is.  Same-sex marriage is an oxymoron.  If I wanted to change the definition of "car" to include horses, people would think I'm off my rocker.  But people want to change the definition of marriage to include same-sex unions.  Same-sex unions are not marriage anymore than horses are cars, no matter whether you change the definition or not.  I thought that was obvious.


The whole point of marriage being a LEGAL union is that it is LEGALLY defined by the law, and the law can be changed, amended and rewritten. If the legal definition of a a man or a woman can be changed to include post-operative transsexuals, the definition of marriage can be changed too. Period.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 02:00 AM on February 25, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Didn't say the definition couldn't be changed.  Just saying that if you change the definition it is no longer what it is (if you catch my drift).  The word gay no longer means what it used to.  I'm sure that if you use it to describe your "happy" friend (and he's not homosexual) he will take offense to your comment regardless of what the definition means.  By changing the definition of a word, you change the word.  It is no longer what it used to be.  If you allow homosexual marriage, it will no longer be (by definition) marriage.  Sure, you'll still use the word, but it won't be what it was.  Period.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:18 AM on February 25, 2006 | IP
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The word 'gay' can mean both 'happy' and also refer to someone who is a homosexual. A word can have a number of definitions - it depends on how one uses it.

More to the point, if homosexual marriage were to be allowed, it would still be marriage, as the term 'marriage' would have been legally extended to include same-sex unions. It would be what it was, plus something else also. Double period.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:17 AM on February 26, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Listen Kate, if I asked you if you were gay, would you honestly assume that I was asking if you were happy?  Changing the definition of a word, changes the meaning.  You can't get around that.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:03 AM on February 26, 2006 | IP
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It doesn't matter what the predominant use of a word is - it can still have more than one meaning. At no time did anyone say 'the word gay no longer means happy - it is now to be used ONLY when referring to homosexuals. That's ONLY, people. No exceptions.'
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:35 AM on February 27, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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It was a yes or no question.  What is your answer?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:07 AM on February 27, 2006 | IP
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I would first answer 'no', as the predominant use of the word 'gay' these days is in reference to homosexuality - or, in your case, the only way it's used. That still does not mean that you couldn't have been asking whether i were happy or not - you may just need to explain the context in which you were speaking.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 01:51 AM on February 28, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Actually, the predominant use today is "stupid" or "lame" (That is so gay!).  At least, that's how I hear it used today.  Other than using the word as an example in a discussion, I don't actually use the word.  Contrary to some people's opinions, outside of this forum (which I got started on because of a post I saw for "Bible proof against gays") I really don't spend much time thinking about the whole homosexual lifestyle.  The point is, if you change the definition of something, people don't know what you're talking about anymore.  As you pointed out, you think you know what I'm asking, but you can't be sure.  Gaye used to be a popular girls name but, because of the change in meaning, people no longer feel comfortable in naming their children that.  (Ask Dick Trickle's parents if they'd have named him that if they knew what the word was gonna mean by the time he grew up)


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:53 AM on February 28, 2006 | IP
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Oh good - thank you for bringing forth yet another possible use for the word 'gay'. Saved me a lot of hassle. I guess seeing that is now the supposed predominant use of the word these days, it can no longer mean anything in reference to homosexuals?
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:33 AM on March 1, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Precisely my point.  If you change the definition of a word, you undermine it's original intent.  That's what I've been saying from the beginning.  Thank you.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:51 AM on March 1, 2006 | IP
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I am not following the reasoning of EMyer's concern for word definitions.
He originally said something about the definition of marriage changing if same sex couples marry. Well, so what?
This has nothing to do with what you call something. Aren't we discussing an underlying concept?

As for words. They change all the time in any language. I don't see what the point is here.

By the way, using gay to mean lame or stupid is to use the word in an offensive manner. Offensive to gays, that is, and it is not used by persons who know better.
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 1:30 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
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Quote from Carns at 7:57 PM on April 28, 2005 :
i dont personally agree with homosexuality, and i dont think its genetic, but i do think you're right in comparing it the fact that religion isn't genetic... however, generally, nuts dont fall very far from their tree's so even though its not genetic scientifically, psychologically speaking it might as well be, since gay's are most probable to raise gays, and children most probably take on their parents religious beliefs (generally speaking)




http://www.contemporaryfamilies.org/public/stacey3.php

Studies have not shown any difference in sexual orientation between gay parents and straight parents... Straight people raise gay children and so that puts and immediate kink in your thoughts. But I will add that children raised by gay parents tend to be different in other ways such as being more androgynous.


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 6:34 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
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I'd say the only real difference between children raised by gay parents and those raised by straight parents would be open-mindedness.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 6:44 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
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I wanted to use substantial evidence to prove that there isnt much difference an many people would consider androgynous as a form of open mindedness...
Would a "normal straight" guy be willing to help cook clean and take care of the kids... not by normal standards but an androgynous STRAIGHT male would take joy in participating in these usually deemed "female" roles which is very "open minded" for him



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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 7:39 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
Dave Smelt

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K8, great question. And I doubt that it will be answered anytime soon to anyone’s satisfaction.

I am not a professional on this subject so I can only add a limited view which is my personal experience and observation. I would also like to say that I am a Christian in the sense that I am protestant and I attend an Assembly of God Church of the Pentecostal position. With that said, I will share with you the understanding I have from my personal perspective and conviction. Before I begin I will also share some of my past so you can have a bit more knowledge of who I am and why I say what I say.

I am the last of six children and my Dad and Mother have been Pastoring a church for most of my life. I have seen many people come and go from church. I have talked with many people of many different life styles. The church my parents’ pastor is in San Francisco, CA. I grew up in a very diverse setting with many offered life styles. San Francisco is truly a "Melting Pot". The cultural lines are almost non-existent. In general, people of San Francisco have a very compact personal bubble allowing a very high tolerance level of each other (as in some other large cities).  I believe that this in turn reduces the fear factor of other cultures, races, and life styles. Most people can strike up a conversation with anyone despite of who they are, with ease and openness. With that said, I will return to the question.

Is homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality a choice?

First, I would like to say that I think that compartmentalizing sexuality is absurd as it leads to more confusion. Why I say this is that it puts people in a position to make a choice when there really isn't one. The body you arrived with is not your choice. You are either a male, female or hermaphrodite when born into this world. You don’t get to choose your gender. Does this mean that I don't believe in choice? No, it doesn’t.

In my present state of mind I have come to the conviction that I can make the choice to love any person, animal, place or thing. What is it to love? Does it have to do with sexuality? With very little thought given to these two questions most people will say it has nothing to do with sexuality. I am a father of four children and I love them dearly. I have a dog which I have grown to love. I love my wife. I love my brothers and sisters. I love some of my friends and neighbors. I love my job. I love to argue. I love to sleep. I love to eat. All this love has lead me to the understanding that “love” is used very loosely in the “American English” language and may be so for “English” too. I admit that I use it in many different ways. Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary defines love as the following:
1 a (1): strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties (2): attraction based on sexual desire: affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3): affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests b: an assurance of love 2 : warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion 3 a : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration b (1) : a beloved person : DARLING -- often used as a term of endearment (2) British -- used as an informal term of address 4 a : unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others b : a person's adoration of God 5 : a god or personification of love 6 : an amorous episode : LOVE AFFAIR 7 : the sexual embrace : COPULATION 8 : a score of zero (as in tennis) 9 capitalized, Christian Science : GOD.
As you can see by this portion of the dictionary I cut and paste, we use the word love in many ways. Let me go back to what I would say is a good question.

Is sexuality a choice? Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary defines sexuality as:
The quality or state of being sexual : a: the condition of having sex b: sexual activity c: expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive.
What I say of this question is that you have many choices. Choices such as:
1.Who should I have sex with?
2.Should I have sex with myself (masturbation)?
3.I love that person, should I have sex with him or her?
4.I love that animal, should I have sex with it?
5.I love that object, should I have sex with it?
The list can go on with many more questions but I will stop at number five for now. We do have many choices to face in our lifetime and it seems that the older you get the faster time travels and life is passing you by.

Sex is a choice for me. I can create the desire for sex and then I can seek it. Sometimes an image may cause the desire to develop in my innermost self. A conversation can strike up the desire and sometimes these feelings can happen at bad times (When I am in a public place for example.). When I am in what I consider a bad place, I tell myself that I can’t have it now. Can I choose to tell my partner that I want it now and let’s find a corner somewhere so I can have it my way? Yes, but is it prudent to do so? That would all depend on your limits. Furthermore, in our present society, these acts performed in public are against the law and that alone makes this behavior unheard of for me. I would not like to see this act in front of me happen unless it is my own in the privacy of my own space.  I would choose to save it for later, use it during the course of the day, plant the seed of sexual desire to fuel my partner, let it develop over time, let myself get all worked up in anticipation of that right moment and then I will share it with my partner if she is interested. You may ask “What if she is not interested?” and I would answer with this “I would continue to plant the seed of desire by what I consider are acts of kindness and love until she begins to reciprocate my same feelings.”

When sexuality is taken out of this context what do I call it? This will sound mean to many people but I will elaborate on this answer. I call it abnormal behavior. Why do I call it abnormal behavior? To me, it is abnormal when performed out of this framework because sex is the primary function of a species to reproduce. The second function would serve for pleasure but pleasure implies choice.  Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary defines pleasure as:
1: DESIRE, INCLINATION
2: a state of gratification 3 a: sensual gratification b: frivolous amusement
4: a source of delight or joy
Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary defines desire as:
1 : to long or hope for : exhibit or feel desire for
2 a : to express a wish for : REQUEST b archaic : to express a wish to : ASK
3 obsolete : INVITE
4 archaic : to feel the loss of
intransitive senses : to have or feel desire
synonyms DESIRE, WISH, WANT, CRAVE, COVET mean to have a longing for. DESIRE stresses the strength of feeling and often implies strong intention or aim . WISH sometimes implies a general or transient longing especially for the unattainable . WANT specifically suggests a felt need or lack . CRAVE stresses the force of physical appetite or emotional need . COVET implies strong envious desire .

Sex as a mechanism can produce very strong feelings that science has coined as “orgasm”. Most humans covet this feeling. Some go as far as forcing others into sex to achieve this feeling, others thru self manipulation, and some may offer material gain to have it their way. By the previous statement we can conclude that it should be consensual.

Let’s ask a tougher question. Should consensual sex happen between male and male, female and female, human and animal, human and object or human and self? In any of these conditions no children can be produced so it can only be done for pleasure and it is for this reason that I say that these conditions are abnormal and should not occur in healthy humans. In those situations these relationships have half the sex and not the whole because the possibility of having children is non-existent. Can these relationships desire children? Yes, it is a subject debated in different forms on this forum. What about heterosexual couples that can not reproduce? This is due to many medical conditions. Can medical conditions cause odd behavior? Yes, some medical conditions manifest peculiar behavior. Can humans choose a life of celibacy? Yes. Is it possible to have sex with non living objects? Yes, there are different kinds of sexual toys available to humans and this growing phenomenon is also documented in the medical field. We as humans can choose many ways to have sex but it is only thru one kind that we have sex the way it is intended.  

In conclusion, you can choose to have sex in two ways. You can fornicate or get married. I understand that some people don’t like the word fornicate but it simply means this according to Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary:
Consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other.
A homosexual relationship and sex out of wedlock perform the act of fornication. In the end you will choose who you have a sexual relationship with.

 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 11:27 PM on April 13, 2006 | IP
    
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