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thelmoose

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Who cares about the Christian point of view on Gay Rights?

Why does a discussion of gay rights always seem to end up with the Christians defending their points with theology? Why should we care what you think the ancient texts may or may not say about this? (This always leads to a pissing match between interpretations anyway.) This is a topical political problem, not a specifically religious one. And it becomes religious only to the extent that the Christians make it so.

My point is, if your religious background forbids certain behaviors, that’s just fine. This is about whether we should pass laws and constitutional amendments. If these snarky debates over what you think God says is right should tell you anything, it is that these issues, when discussed from a religious point of view, are open to a very wide range of opinion.

It is beyond my understanding why the Christians can’t discuss this civil matter with secular discourse and reasoning. Certainly ethics is pertinent to any civil matter, but Christianity does not have the sole perspective of what is ethical.

My proposition is this. Is it possible to discuss the issue of gay rights without bringing your religious position into it? By definition, your particular religious position is personal to you, doesn’t apply to me or anybody else, and therefore, doesn’t have a place in this discussion


(Edited by thelmoose 2/26/2006 at 1:12 PM).
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 1:10 PM on February 26, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Christianity is pervasive.  It would be hard for a Christian to discuss any topic without it being colored by the Truth.  Once one takes religion out of the scope then one is left with an ever-changing morality that is determined by the majority.  Therefore, you may get gay marriage (oxymoron) or what have you today, but when public perception changes it will be snatched back away.  In the eyes of most people (most people ascribe to a morality imposed by Deity),  right and wrong are black and white.  Remove that morality and it becomes a morality du jour.  Since 92% of Americans (Opinion Dynamic poll {like the Gallup Polls, this is not a Christian institution}) believe in God, then it is impossible to have a discussion of this that does not include Godly principles unless you keep this conversation between the 8% that are atheists (or from a country with a higher percentage of atheists).


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 1:31 PM on February 26, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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Beautiful. Simply beautiful.

A better response I could not ask for.
Actually, I could have hoped for a reasoned discussion instead of self-absorbed Christian claptrap, but alas.
No, instead, there is Emyers’ response. I swear to you, he is not a plant. I did not coach him on his hilarious response.
Yes, there is EMyers, whose response typifies the problem of which I spoke.
Did I say typifies? No, he essentially parodies the issue with his Old Glory icon and his mystifyingly incomprehensible quote about truth.
For you see, EMyers knows truth. In fact, as you can see, he knows it so well, he actually, actually gives his truth a capital T. (No, really, this is not a joke; look for yourself).

Don’t take my word for it; let us parse the post of one EMyers, and find out how these people think. (I use the word loosely.)

“Christianity is pervasive.”
Yes it is. But so is reality TV and that also is not necessarily pertinent to this discussion of gay rights.

“It would be hard for a Christian to discuss any topic without it being colored by the Truth.”
Ain’t that unfortunately so. How tedious is that? And that is truth with a capital T, which rhymes with P, and stands for Pravda. Only your brand of Christians know which “color” the truth is, and there is no discussion of anything without bringing in that Christian truth. Well, that is lockstep knee-jerk pablum and it gets real old, real fast.

“Once one takes religion out of the scope then one is left with an ever-changing morality that is determined by the majority.”
There is no morality without Emyers’ brand of religion. No one can ever be ethical (a word I prefer) outside the scope of religion. Religious orthodoxy is always moral and it never changes over time. Well, I’ve seen it change over the period of decades.

“In the eyes of most people (most people ascribe to a morality imposed by Deity), right and wrong are black and white.”
This is the best part.
First, just because most Americans say they believe in the Christian god, that does not mean they believe like you Emyers. There is a great diversity in thought among those people.
It must be so lovely to know what is right and wrong all the time for all issues. Life for your ilk is black and white. And while that removes that nasty discomfort of a thing called critical thought for you, it doesn’t give you the inside edge on what is right and wrong. When you become an adult, EMyers, life gets trickier. There is nuance, and subtlety and most important context.

Context is something you have no knowledge of because you isolate yourself among people who only think like you, assuming you actually interact with other people. I know this must be true, because I live among people who are of many nationalities, creeds, lifestyles and backgrounds. If I spoke with such smug certitude as you do, I would be branded as arrogant, self-centered and utterly naïve. I would have no friends.

Have I made this post too personal, Emyers? Well, with me, the issue of gay rights is deeply personal for me. It’s my life you chuckleheads are fooling with. Go back to your comfortable cock-sure cocoon and leave intellectual discussion to people who have actually had a new thought after the age of fourteen.

 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 5:28 PM on February 26, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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So, because I am certain, I am arrogant and "cock-sure".  If I was uncertain then I'd be "wishy-washy".  Are you saying that you are not "certain" of your position?  If you aren't, why do you defend it?  If you are, does that make you arrogant and "cock-sure" too?  The definition of "cock-sure" is "certain".  Are you or are you not "cock-sure"?  Have you painted yourself into an intellectual corner?  It'd be nice to have no idea of right and wrong, black and white.  One could live life gleefully, uncaring.  However, since there is a right and wrong (or are you saying that nothing is right and wrong?), we hold ourselves accountable (or do you not hold yourself accountable for your actions?).  Are you even aware of truth?  You criticize because I capitalize Truth?  Do you not believe that there is a Truth?  Or is there no such thing as reality in the world as you see it?  As for your comments about Christianity and reality TV both being pervasive.... please, please don't tell me you actually thought that I meant to say that Christianity is "everywhere".  You're not that dense.  In case you are (the rest of you who actually knew what I was talking about can skip this part), I obviously meant that Christianity is pervasive in the life of a Christian.  A Christian can not compartmentalize himself into a Christian and an Atheist so that he may then sit down and talk to you with his Atheist side.  However, I have the feeling you already knew what I meant and are just trying to act dumb for the enjoyment of your readers.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 9:01 PM on February 26, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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Emyers,
You really are the poster boy for concrete thinking. I think my supposition of your isolated lifestyle is supported by your apparent lack of ability to detect irony. I apologize if English is not your first language.

I would hope I submitted some thoughtful ideas to discuss or refute, but you hide behind nitpicking of word definitons, a sure sign that one really doesn't have an argument. It is a classic in these forums with those that are stuck for a response.

I guess I am reducing myself to your level, but, you brought it up, so I think this is fair. The word "cocksure" has connotations of meaning overly certain, such as one sees in those exhibiting defensive behavior. I didn't call you cocksure because I think you are certain, but because I believe the opposite. (Actually, I didn't call you cocksure at all, as you claim. I said, "Go back to your comfortable cock-sure cocoon". By the way, cocksure really is a fun word to say, no? For real grins say "comfortable cock-sure cocoon" 10 times fast) You literalists hide behind your certitude because you are afraid of thinking. Dogma is the bastion of the limited mind. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it.", is a slogan that is rather frightening to me. Critical thinking is the terror of the fundamentalist and is characteristically avoided, as you have perfectly demonstrated.

By the way, I also said you were self-centered and utterly naïve. Play with those as well.

(Edited by thelmoose 2/27/2006 at 11:05 AM).

(Edited by thelmoose 2/27/2006 at 11:45 AM).
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 11:03 AM on February 27, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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By the way, I also said you were self-centered and utterly naïve. Play with those as well.

Actually, you said you'd be branded with those words, but I'm sure that's not the sound-bite you were going for.  You also fail to answer any of the questions that were actually presented to you, and yet you accuse me of not having an argument.  

Irony?  What irony?  Irony is the fact that H&R Block somehow missed 32 million dollars on their own taxes.  That is irony.  I didn't see any irony in any of your posts.

Now, how about you go back to the questions that I actually posed to you?  Perhaps if you had an actual answer for them, you would not be reduced to your tired rhetoric.

P.S.  I will give you points for your use of the word Pravda instead of Pool.  At least that was funny.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:22 PM on February 27, 2006 | IP
Jake19

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Christians are just as real as gays and there is always going to be troubles between but is there any room for these two communities to live harmoniously with one another? I believe that there is just as much hate from the gay community going towards the christian community as there is from the other way around. I know there is a middle ground because in my own life I have seen Christians and gays co-exist. Its when the extremists from both sides take the forefront and completely are stubborn about there point of view. I don't think that attacking one another will ever accomplish anything. An understanding is needed I believe it is possible.  


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 8:34 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I think too many people confuse preaching against homosexuality as the same as gay-bashing.  I've met homosexuals before.  I didn't beat them up.  Didn't cross to the other side of the road.  Didn't ignore them.  Didn't refuse to shake their hand.  From a biblical standpoint however, I can not condone their lifestyle anymore than I can a murderer, rapist (why does that word always look like it is spelled incorrectly?), liar, thief, etc.  God doesn't label sins by some sort of tier system where one is worse than another (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit notwithstanding).  He doesn't even label them by which ones don't hurt someone either.  Sin is sin.  

Revelation 21:8


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 11:00 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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Jake19,

I do appreciate your thoughts in this matter. I agree that confrontation accomplishes little. I didn’t intend to attack every Christian, just EMyers, because reason wasn’t working, although I understand it is entirely non-productive. However, I cannot abide in general and will attack the Christian point of view (unlike yours) that states homosexuality is a sin AND therefore gays should not have access to equal civil rights. I have no problem if one personally feels certain behavior is sinful and they personally choose not to behave that way. I have a big problem with the specific Christian position like those of EMyers’ ilk who condemn my behavior that causes no harm to anyone, and want to pass laws to that effect.

You suggest that the antipathy from the gay community to the Christians is equal to the converse. I disagree. I know of no instance of hatred toward a Christian who is willing to live and let live with the gay community. If there are negative feelings toward the Christians, it is in response to their initial ugliness. I do not consider my position as extremist and I disagree of your characterization of mine as such. I have many friends who are Christian and my being gay is a non-issue. What I almost never see or hear is the public outcry from Christians such as yourself denouncing the position of those who use the Bible a justification for anti-gay political rhetoric.

 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 11:27 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
Jake19

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I believe there might be some confusion... I am gay and I guess that did not come across. But i was not referring to you directly I find many things you say very creditable but I try to be very accepting of not only my own views but others and that was mainly a very general statement to bring some percpective that we are actually quite the same with strong opinions and I often feel that one classifies the other as evil when I truly think both intentions are good.


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 11:49 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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Quote from EMyers at 11:00 PM on March 1, 2006 :
I've met homosexuals before.  I didn't beat them up.  Didn't cross to the other side of the road.  Didn't ignore them.  Didn't refuse to shake their hand.

This is admirable behavior.
Do you have any friends or acquaintances who are gay? How many gay couples have you had dinner with in your home or theirs? I would  have concern about the value of an opinion from someone who has a lot to say about gay "lifestyle" without any personal experience. Interaction facilitates understanding.

 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 10:37 AM on March 2, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I would  have concern about the value of an opinion from someone who has a lot to say about gay "lifestyle" without any personal experience.

I believe pedophelia is wrong and I haven't slept with any children.  One doesn't have to do something to know whether it is right or wrong.  Don't be myopic.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:24 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
Jake19

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you need to look at my last post in the thread titled, "I have a question/theory." And you really need to stop comparing Pedophiles to homosexuals because it is completely different.  


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 12:31 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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Quote from EMyers at 12:24 PM on March 2, 2006 :
One doesn't have to do something to know whether it is right or wrong.


I wasn't suggesting you "do" anything to a gay person other than trying to understand them before passing judgement. So, are you saying you do not know any gay people? I truly think you might see things differently if you see people as people and not some concept that you have heard about.

And I concur with Jake19, you really do need to understand that pedophilia and homosexuality are independent of each other.



 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 1:13 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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1) Never said pedophelia WAS homosexuality.  Quit reading into the comments.  Was using the fact that one didn't have to have any personal experience with something to determine whether it was right or wrong.

2) I have known more than my share of homo- and bi-sexual people over the years.  I do not know any currently (I've only recently moved).  Again, one can condemn the sin without condemning the sinner (although God will condemn the sinner who does not turn away from his sin).  

3)  You know that I am a Christian.  You know that the Bible condemns homosexuality.  Yet for some reason you want to appeal to the "God loves" aspect of Christianity while ignoring the "fire and brimstone" side of the equation.  You remind me of the people who run around saying "Jesus is my personal savior", but don't want the "Jesus is my personal Lord" aspect of salvation.  

John 14:21


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 1:26 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
Jake19

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No where in the bible does it say that it is the christians duty to inforce the fire and brimstone side that is Gods job. Christians jobs are to be loving and I have seen some very hateful comments come from many christians who think that homosexuals are beneath them. Thats the only point we are trying to make. If someone doesnt want your way of life its not your job to tell them they will burn in hell for all eternity its your job to just tell them God is still there for them and so are we. Christian do not condemn, rebuke, or anything like that. Thats the way it has been since I was 3 and going to sunday school.
But about the whole pedophile thing if pedophilia is NOT the same as homosexuality then it is a weak argument.


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 1:35 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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Quote from EMyers at 1:26 PM on March 2, 2006 :
You know that the Bible condemns homosexuality.  

No, I do not know that the Bible comdemns homosexuality. I only have a cursory understanding of the Bible, more than most, but by no means would I ever use my limited knowledge to feel confident using the Bible as a reference.

That being said, I think it is reasonable to also say there are some Biblical scholars would disagree with your statement that the Bible condemns homosexuality. These theological folks can translate the ancient texts and have studied the topic assiduously and yet there is disagreement among them. I think it is reasonable to assume that the topic of the Bible’s assessment of the evils of homosexuality is not uniformly agreed upon.

THAT being said, I don’t care what the Bible says. That was supposed to be the gist of this thread. We live in a secular nation. We separate church and state for the benefit of BOTH church and state. Therefore, using the Bible to justify legal ideas about gay rights is not warranted, especially when the topic is not resolved among the biblical experts.

Quote from EMyers at 1:26 PM on March 2, 2006 :
I have known more than my share of homo- and bi-sexual people over the years


How much is a share? Would you say it's a fair share?



 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 1:48 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
Jake19

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I agree completely with you! There have even been new statements from vatican officials saying that the bible is not meant for literal translation but is more of a guideline. And many religious leaders have even suggested that with changing time and human normalities the Bible's literal meanings are becoming less applicable in modern society. Everyone is changing there views and the spectrum is getting wider wider. Who is to say what the "right" ways are. And thats why we have the government we do because there isnt a black and white way to look at this topic.  


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 2:19 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Obviously we are going to have to agree to disagree on the Christian perspective of what is required of a Christian biblically.  I will take umbrage with one point and then leave you all alone.

That being said, I think it is reasonable to also say there are some Biblical scholars would disagree with your statement that the Bible condemns homosexuality. These theological folks can translate the ancient texts and have studied the topic assiduously and yet there is disagreement among them. I think it is reasonable to assume that the topic of the Bible’s assessment of the evils of homosexuality is not uniformly agreed upon.

Romans 1:26-27
1 Corinithians 6:9
1 Timothy 1:10

These three scriptures leave no doubt that homosexuality is condemned.  It is impossible to read them in any way that suggests it is acceptable.  Obviously, if you don't believe in God, nothing I can say will change your mind in this world.  However, I have tried.  You can denounce God and go your way, but do not try and claim (anyone, not just aimed at the actual posters) that you believe in God and still think you are acceptable in his sight.  

Sincerely,
  Edward Myers
  Omaha (home of the CWS)
  sans lederhosen

P.S.  (in reference to an earlier comment in on of these posts...)  If you'd ever been to Omaha you'd know it doesn't even have adult book stores or topless dancers, much less s&m clubs.

P.P.S.  I will however, give consideration to changing my quote.  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 3:02 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I just moved back after a four year hiatus.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  Last time I was here the only things I knew of is what is considered "bikini bars".  My understanding is that all the bars you listed are actually "bikini bars".  I haven't been in them, but I looked them up based on the information your provided and that is what they are listed as.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 11:14 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
Aeval

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Hey, I have a strange idea! Let's try to follow the thread's topic, and debate the rights of the homosexuals WITHOUT using a bible, cause I must have left mine at home.

I'd like to know why gays aren't people. We have already determined that the Constitution applies to both men and women, blacks, whites, and every other race, but yet we think liking a person of the same sex make someone less? Gays have been blatantly discriminated against in every state. There are laws in most states that prevent them from having sex. (by the way, straight people have anal and oral sex too.) No state allows gay adoption, a few states are trying to ban it completely (not even thinking about what that would do to the adoption centers and system in general. Social workers are already one of the hardest working underpaid people in the US.)  Gays can lose their jobs for loving the same gender and it is "okay" in many instances. It may be illegal to beat and murder a person for being gay, but in several places in the US only baby boo's are said about it.
Gays should have the same rights are everyone else. Having sex with a person of the same gender doesn't hurt anyone. (unless...)
And before it's mentioned, gays are NOT child molestors. Studies have shown that child molestors molest the child because they are innocent not because they are the same gender as themselves.
Kandis

(Edited by Aeval 3/8/2006 at 11:32 AM).
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 11:30 AM on March 8, 2006 | IP
    
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