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     Stay out of others' lives

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K8

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The Bible holds what is the ONLY supposed "argument" against homosexuality. It is the reason why homosexuals suffer so much pain, persecution and discrimination in this world, and those who inflict such things upon them should be ashamed of themselves.

I can't stand how Christians insist on fighting gay relationships and marriage with more tenacity than they do things like the death penalty. Some of you even believe in the death penalty...it just amazes me beyond belief. Maybe you should all step out of other people's lives and business and start living your own how you want to and stop forcing your beliefs and values onto others.

Homosexuality harms no one - it actually makes people happy in this world - so stay out of something you have no control over, no understanding of and no business being involved in.

 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:26 AM on March 1, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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Thank you for your post. It is remarkable how much energy the Christians put into this, when there are real issues to be concerned about. I agree, other than the biblical stuff, they have no other ammunition for their debate. There is no rational basis for the anti-gay position.
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 1:37 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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It is remarkable how much energy the Christians put into this, when there are real issues to be concerned about.

I like the way that you imply that we put no effort into issues like the killing of innocents, racism, thievery, education, orphans and the like.  If you put any effort into these issues yourself, you would run across countless Christians already combating these problems.  Step away from the forum once in awhile and go do something.  You'll see.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:26 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
Jake19

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I think there is some fault on both sides here!!! I don't really like Christians are being clumped into a lump sum that says they are all gay bashing hypocrites because that is really not true. Most christians I have come in contact with are very considerate of gay lifestyles not saying that there arent christians out there who are overbearing and think it is there duty to condemn. But I must say that homosexuality in today's society is no ones business but of tose who it directly effects and that is the gay community it itself.


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 8:27 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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Perhaps I mispoke, but I am specifically referring to, in your words, the "christians out there who are overbearing and think it is there duty to condemn". I am referring to those who fight gay relationships from a biblical standpoint. In fact, the ONLY argument these folks make is an inflexible religious one. They feel their position aligns completely with God (and they know this with complete certainty) and therefore, no discussion is needed.
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 11:36 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
Jake19

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I completely agree with you on that. The thing that saddens me is that from those christians who are so vocal they do not represent many other christians and it creates a very negative connotation towards christians. I think many christians realize it is not their place to tell us we are sinners and that we do not have the right to choose to marry or things like that. I just hope it is those christians who live by th WWJD concepts will be the major influences in the overall christian community.


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 11:54 PM on March 1, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I'm confused on one point.  A Christian is a follower of Christ, correct?  The basis for the Christian religion is the New Testament correct?  The New Testament teaches that homosexuality is a sin, correct?  It also says that all Scripture is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for discipline in righteousness..., correct?  It also says that a Christian who sees someone sinning and does not try to save him "commits a great sin" and is "guilty of his blood".  WWJD?  What did he do when he saw people running business in the temple?  Were his words "politically correct" when he called the Pharisees and scribes hypocrites and white-washed sepulchres?  How often did Jesus preach against sin?  How often did he preach on hell and judgment?  Too many Christians these days attend John 3:16 congregations (you know the ones who teach some version of "Jesus loves you" every week and never touch the rest of the Bible).  Most Christians couldn't tell you what the Bible says on any number of topics.  It shows in the way society conducts itself these days (even though most Americans consider themselves to be Christians).  I do find it odd though that you don't condone the Christian lifestyle, but harp on them for not condoning yours.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:21 AM on March 2, 2006 | IP
Jake19

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I am sorry but you are wrong for saying that I HARP on christians because I do no such thing. And when I was talking about WWDJ Im talking about the christians who befriend sinners take them into their homes have dinner with them and try to bring them closer to God. Oposed to the Christians who just preach what a sinner is and tell everyone why they are going to hell. I am not saying you are either of these but I don't think Christians who just condemn accomplish anything. I have always been taught that christian do not CORRECT sinners they bring sinners to God so he can heal them. Do you think by telling people they are sinners and that what they believe is wrong will bring them to God? or would it be more beneficial to get involved with sinners let them know they have place with you and with you're God?


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 12:36 AM on March 2, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Jesus usually surrounded himself with sinners (at least those who were repentant of their sin and were trying to change their lives).  As he often said, he didn't come to save the righteous, but sinners (of course there is some irony in there since "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" {hope I got that quote right, didn't look it up}).  By the same token, he never told the they were "ok" in their sin.  He never stopped being a teacher and an example to them.  He continually told them to what they needed to do to inherit eternal life (although some, like the young rich man, couldn't bring themselves to do it).  I'm not sinless.  Some people might say it is hypocritical to preach to others when one has faults of their own, however this would make every parent a hypocrite and every apostle as well.  Even Paul said that he was the least of the apostles and it was only through the grace of God that he became what he was.  Even he went through with Christ's commandment to go and preach unto all the world, hypocrite or not.  One can't be a Christian and keep one's mouth shut at the same time.  The two are mutually exclusive.  Like I said before, there are a majority of Christians out there who couldn't tell you what the bible says outside of what they hear preached on Sunday (you know the ones, they have that one big Bible at home with the two yellowed pages because it's been open to their "favorite verse" since they bought it and haven't touched it since).  They probably couldn't even tell you what constitutes a sin and what doesn't.  I'll bet most of them can't even tell you what the words "iniquity" or "lasciviousness" mean, although they might have remembered hearing them at church once upon a time.  You can't avoid being liable for sin in your life by actively being ignorant.  And a Christian can't stand at the judgment saying "I didn't do it" while he spent his life condoning it in others.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:12 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
Jake19

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You know you never answer the questions any poses for you you just go off and start preaching!!! WE KNOW YOU DONT THINK HOMOSEXUALITY IS RIGHT! Ok now thats out of the way. now other than telling homesexuals that they are sinners and that god thinks they are sinners, what have you done to bring them closer to God? Yes Jesus walked with homosexuals, talked with them conveyed that he loved them, and that God loved them too and that he genuinely cared about them all. When you talk about homosexuals its not because you care about them you are just trying tell the world that homosexuality is wrong and that is not Christian.  

(Edited by Jake19 3/2/2006 at 12:26 PM).

(Edited by Jake19 3/2/2006 at 12:27 PM).


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 12:23 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I'm so glad that you can see the inner recesses of my heart to determine the true intentions found within.  Perhaps you should be a judge.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 1:16 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
Jake19

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Once again nothing really profound or debate worthy. But please understand that when I use the word you Im really dont mean it to be you... I am just being general. I dont know you and I dont know what you have done but you havent provided anything to suggest differently.


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~*JaKe*~
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 1:21 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
K8

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To Jake19, i certainly understand that there are many Christians out there who aren't "gay-bashing hypocrites" - whenever i use the word 'Christian' from now on i'll add a disclaimer in brackets after it to show i know it's not all of you.  

To EMyers, can i just ask what verse in the New Testament states that homosexuality is a sin? I will try to find it, but i'm sure you have it somewhere closer at hand.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 7:07 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Kate, start with these...

Romans 1:26-27
1 Corinithians 6:9
1 Timothy 1:10



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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 8:33 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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That's it??
That's all ya got?
THAT'S what all your fussing is about?
Pretty skimpy.  The Timothy verse doesn't even seem to proscribe any behavior. THe other two are pretty vague in the KJV. It really sounds like the behavior that is being objected to is fornication, sluttiness, if you will.

What about the argument that human sexuality as we know conceive of it (Heterosexuality included) is a modern phenomenon, perhaps 150 years old. Therefore the ancients, Paul & Tim, couldn't have written about something that doesn't exist in their minds yet.
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 11:19 AM on March 3, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Romans 1:26-27 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due."  Pretty cut and dry.

I Corinthians 6:9-10 "Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."  Again, leaves no doubt.

1 Timothy 1:10 "for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine:"  Cut and dry.

Not sure of your confusion on the topic.  Also, most of the letters and such were written to the Jews and/or Gentiles that had converted to Christianity.  The Jews already knew of the laws against homosexuality (Leveticus 20:13).  This was not a topic that was a prevalent problem among the people it was written to.  Even then, it was important enough that the subject was mentioned clearly and without room for doubt.  These people were listed among those who would NOT inherit the kingdom of God.  Couldn't give a much stricter warning than that.  You can claim there is no God if you wish (Psalms 14:1), but do not try to claim that the bible is accepting of the behavior.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:19 PM on March 3, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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Well, it doesn't look cut and dry to me, perhaps my lack of expertise with the grammar and semantics of Jacobean English is the problem. Or perhaps it's because I'm an infidel. I still say these are pronouncements against sluttiness and not homosexuality per se.

But I don't believe in god, so I'm hopeless. I wonder how the other Christians feel about the statement that you must agree with the inerrant literal word of the bible, unless you don't believe in God. (And that's not even considering those pesky issues of translation, numerous copying, gaps that were filled in and taking statements out of the context of the particular circumstance and age in which they were made.)

Also, you still have addressed the issue of not being able to condemn a behavior that no one had considered existing until the 19th century.


 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 5:53 PM on March 3, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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No one had thought of homesexuality before the 19th century?  I thought you were joking with that statement.  I guess Leveticus must have just been written a few years ago then.  Who's been teasing us with that whole Septuagant thing?  Let's see, according to your post, heterosexuality didn't exist until a century and a half ago either.... hmmm, guess the virgin birth wasn't a new thing either.  People have been doing it since the beginning of time.  Oh my.  And how exactly do you look at verses like leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness and think that it refers to plain old adultery and not homosexuality?  Are you actively trying to not understand?  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 6:25 PM on March 3, 2006 | IP
thelmoose

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OK, OK. I just thought the flowery language left something to the imagination. Whatever. Like I said, I don't care, I'm a big fan of unseemliness myself.  Other Christians may have something to say about this, though.

I am not joking about the human sexuality thing. Just as the notion of romantic love did not exist until after the Middle Ages, the mental construct of human sexuality is a recent concept. Ideas like this are highly culturally bound. Again, you really, really, really need to step outside a narrow focus grasp the different issues of sexual desire, sexual behavior and sexual identity. This is key to any thoughtful discusssion of gay politics.
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 7:24 PM on March 3, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Wasn't discussing gay politics.  Outside of the scope that people keep saying that the bible does NOT condemn homosexuality, I'm letting it rest.  I only jumped back in on this conversation because Kate specifically asked me for some references and you didn't appear to understand those references.  I have no political and/or legal argument against homosexuality (aside from the fact that homosexuality is already against the law in some states).


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 7:42 PM on March 3, 2006 | IP
    
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