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     Gay - Nature or Nurture?
       What is the origin of homosexual orientation?

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AlexanderTheGreat

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Do u think gays are born gay or made gay by their environment?

Supporters of the gay community (straights included) have gotten into the habit of saying they are born that way.

Well, maybe, but I think they are just saying that because they want to make an argument for why it's "not their fault". That is a noble intention, but it is unnecessary. Realistically, like so many other things, it is probably a bit of both nature and nurture. This logically does not detract from the statement that there is nothing wrong with homsexuality. In fact, there is no need for a reason for why it's "not their fault". That implies there is something to justify, and there isn't. Gay sex/love is not "wrong" or "right", just as heterosexuality is not "wrong" or "right". They both just "are". They both just are human attachments/affinity expressed emotionally through romantic relationships and physically through sex.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 05:57 AM on September 26, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Agreed.  nature and nurture.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:31 AM on September 26, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I believe it is a product of they're environment, did you know that over 90% of homosexuals come from a broken home and/or where sexually abused as a child?


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:15 PM on October 8, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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I think it's also both and I'd like to know where you got your 90% statistic.  My only question is why would anyone make a choice to be gay.  To do so is to bring nothing but persecution, condemnation, and hate.  I think that there definitely is a genetic aspect to it.  


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 12:07 AM on October 12, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I got it from a debate I heard somewhere, dont really remember.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 12:19 AM on October 12, 2002 | IP
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The reason a person would CHOOSE to be homosexual is due to the fact that they enjoy the feeling of that type of sexual stimulation.  The fact that choosing this lifstyle brings problems for them is their own fault.  The homosexual stereotype is there because the homosexuals created it and continue to do so.  They don't just live as who they are and enjoy their choice of sexual stimulation behind closed doors.  They, by their own choice, conform to a confusing, often times depressing lifestyle that "requires" them to choose.  My kids' dad is now gay and miserable.  He's not truly gay, he's bi-sexual.  But according to him, he has to choose, either hetero or homo.  If he chooses bi his homosexual friends will no longer accept him, likewise he states heterosexual friends have said the same.  He's unhappy, lonely, and in the midst of a lifestyle he's been almost forced to conform to in order to prove his sexual orientation.  Why can't homosexuals just be?  Why do they have to be like the rest of them, with the rainbows, the parades, the hair color, the negative attitude toward those who don't share their views?  Why can't they exist as heterosexuals do, keeping their sexual orientation out of their day to day lives?  Everything in a homosexual's life is about homosexuality.   Their clothes, their mannerisms, their conversations, their everything.  Nothing is said or done by them that doesn't somehow someway tie back to being homosexual.   Why??                                                           It's not genetic, it's a choice, just the same as it's a choice to have sex or not.  It's a choice.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:40 PM on October 12, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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I don't think you know very many homsexuals, because there are plenty of homosexuals who do not define their lives by parades, hair color, etc. Also, can you really say that heterosexuals keep their sexual orientation out of their daily lives? You just don't notice it, because it is natural to you. Think about movies, TV, gender-defined stigmas (think about all that talk about girls as you grew up as a kid, how much it encompassed your daily experiences). Society is constantly inundated with heterosexual elements. And yet it is an affront for gays to exhibit their sexuality publically. You'll have to give me a logical argument for that double standard. And have you considered the possibility that the reason there is a higher incidence rate of depression among gays is not because is in inherent to the sexual orientation, but rather that it is a result of constant pressure and discrimination from people such as yourself who won't accept their lifestyle (or do, but only "behind closed doors", which isn't acceptance, it is just dismissal)? Finally, can't see you see an obvious reason why many gays feel inclined to "make a big deal" of their sexual orientation? When blacks marched in the civil rights movement, were they just getting too "in your face"? We are talking about a group of people who are not afforded equal rights under the law, and are struggling to get those rights. I'm not even talking about the right to get married or adopt (which should be obvious),  but the basic right to, let's say, not get beaten up at school for being a "fairy", or to not be hung out on a fence and left to die. This is America, and this is the 21st century, and these things are still going on, and your big gripe is their "Their clothes, their mannerisms, their conversations, their everything"?? Let's check our priorities.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 11:14 AM on October 13, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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i believe that homosexuality is a combination of both environment and genetics.  Some males are born with large amounts of female horomones and vice-versa with women.  I would imagine that such an imbalance in horomones would create tendencies to be attracted to the same sex.  also, i would imagine that broken homes and sexual abuse would cause some people to lean toward a homosexual lifestyle.  for example, if a small girl is beaten and raped by her father, brother, uncle, etc. and is nurtured and loved by her mother, sister, aunt, etc. she might just be more willing to let herself fall in love with women.  i don't necessarily agree with homosexuality, but who am i to judge?  it is simply my moral duty and desire to treat homosexuals with the same respect and dignity that would any heterosexual.  being heterosexual doesn't place you in an elite group and being homosexual shouldn't place you in a group who is discriminated against.  i think that most people just need to straighten out their moral obligations and get past their own fears.


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 10:54 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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Actually, I think studies have shown that there is no hormonal difference b/n homosexuals and heterosexuals. I think the question, by the way, of why so many homosexuals are more openly effeminate (males I mean) than straights, is interesting. I am gay, and not very effeminate (I mean, I stink at sports, but I don't have a high voice, limp wrist, or wear tight shirts), but my boyfriend (while not a flamer) is noticeably a bit more effeminate than most straights. I wonder if this phenomenon is a strange bi-product of socially defined gender roles, sort of a reverse stereotyping. What I mean is, perhaps for many gays, because it is just a trying emotional process figuring out their sexual identity, find it easier and more natural to adopt stereotypical behavior models that initially had no truth to them, but now do. How were those stereotypes first formed then? I suspect from the naturally defensive mode displayed by so many homophobics, especially males. Heterosexual males define themselves (not all, I know) by their masculinity (in terms of strength, athletic prowess, sexual prowess, lots of grunting), and thus instinctively view a deviation from their prescribed gender role as a deviation from masculinity, and thus a picture of effeminate gays is formed. I think it is a social construct born from puritanical, conservative civilizations (especially Western), and I don't think it always existed. I have a hard time imaging Plato talking with a shrill voice and waving a limp wrist in the air.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 08:14 AM on October 14, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Did you all know that 78% of all statistics are incorrect and made up? (heh)  The actual numbers I THINK (made up) 48%.  Because there are a lot of bi kids in my school whose parents are very nice to them as far as ive seen.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 7:40 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
janus13x

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one thought i had while reading the comments posted is when considering nurture, the appearence of homosexuality is directly linked with trauma or sexual abuse.  I wonder what number of the homosexual population was raised in non-abusive, relatively "stable" family environments?  Likewise, how many heterosexuals were raised in "stable" homosexual households?
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 8:36 PM on November 6, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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Studies already show there is no difference in your mental health development between children raised by homosexual or heterosexual parents. as for there being a link between homosexuals and childhood abuse, I actually don't know the statistics there. I wasn't. My family's great!!!


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 8:50 PM on November 6, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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It is a combination of nature and nurture. For example, my dad and grandad have had a problem with losing their temper easily. So naturally, i have the same problem as well...because it is genetic. But does that mean that I can use that as an excuse my whole life? NO, of course not! I have to learn to control my TENDENCIES. The same thing goes for homosexuals. It is easier for them to be gay than other people, but that does not give them a free ride.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:07 PM on November 17, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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i don't get your point. controlling one's temper makes sense, because a bad temper leads to violence. why does someone need to control homsexuality any more than anothe person needs to control their heterosexuality?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 11:52 PM on November 17, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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because homosexuality is a sin...just like getting angry at someone


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:16 AM on November 18, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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notice that i said it is just a sin...this does not mean that a homosexual cant be a Christian. I sin all the time because I am human and I'm still a human. God loves a heterosexual just as much as a homosexual. The key is that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. Everyone sins.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:22 AM on November 18, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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sorry i meant "i'm still a Christian". simple typo


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:22 AM on November 18, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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listen jon...

this is america. homosexuals don't have to control their tendencies because the Bible says it's a sin. this is a secular country. laws are based on reason, not faith. violence is illegal because it harms other people. homsexuality does not harm other people. and please answer this cause Gs-Deus didn't answer it well: why do YOU think God says it's a sin?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:34 AM on November 18, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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because it says clearly in the bible. and the question in this debate is not whether or not homosexuality should be illegal. i dont think it should be. the question is whether it is nature or nurture.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:07 AM on November 18, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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dont get me wrong. no one is any better than anyone else. i'm not homophobic and i'm not going to discriminate against gays. if gays wanna be in the military then let them! everyone on earth is all on the same page because we all have sinned.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:10 AM on November 18, 2002 | IP
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In the bible it does say that all shay be accepted
whether they sin or not but then again it says that
homosexuals with not be accepted when it comes time
to go to "heaven"... The bible contradicts many
things and so it is hard to believe anything that
is said in the bible.  Things that were in the
"orginal" bible have more then likely been put into
different words and so some things may not be what
was truly said.  Homosexuals DO NOT hurt anyone
while in love or having the act of love.  It is
there life and no one needs to interfer with it
just as the is no need to interfer with a hetero-
sexual relationship.  Homosexuals are still human
just like heterosexuals.  They live on the same
planet and breathe the same air.  Homosexuals should
be able to live their lives the way they want to.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 2:54 PM on November 19, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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No, I agree with Fallingupwards84....
His argument makes perfect sense. He thinks its a sin because of his religion but recognizes this is a secular society and that his religious belief should not interfere with the law. I of disagree about his religious belief, but I respect it because he understands negative liberty and that one person's freedom should end where it starts to harm the freedom of another. I wish more religious people in American were like him. however, one quick q for fallingupwards84...
i asked u why YOU thought God marked homosexuality as a sin, and you replied, "because it says clearly in the bible. ". Isn't that really just equivalent to saying, "I think God is against homosexuality because he says he is"??? That is not an answer. I wanna know WHY he is against it. If it because he wants people to be born and go into heaven, then he should only logically be against exclusionary gay sex, and he should think gay sex, combined with frequent hetero outings to reproduce, should be fine. he can't  be against gay sex purely because he is against sex for fun's sake, because all heteros also have sex for fun, even if they play by the rule and wait until after marriage. so what gives? where's the logic, even in the context of religious belief? my guess is, it's not logic in the  religious context, but rather in a historical context. God didn't say gay sex is wrong. People did.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 11:59 PM on November 19, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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thanks Alexanderthegreat for understanding what i'm talking about. Gays should have equal rights because this is the United States (the supposed "land of the free"). i respect ur opinion and agree with alot of the stuff that you say.
in response to what the guest said, he is totally wrong and has no knowledge of what the bible says at all. the bible says that homosexuals can go to heaven. it says "we have all fallen short of the glory of God" but that Jesus forgave all of our sins!! there is no difference in God's eyes between Billy Graham and a homosexual. He loves them all!! all you have to do is accept him. there is no sin that is unforgivable. in fact, if osama bin laden truly was repentent God would forgive him. and also, the Bible that we have now IS the "original bible". in fact, we still have the original scrolls that these words were written on. for example, the Dead Sea Scrolls (which were found in the 20th century and written over 2000 years ago) when translated said the EXACT same thing that the Bible says. this means that the bible has not been changed with different words.
now to answer alexander's question...i'm not a theologian so its hard for me to answer that question. it all depends on whether you believe that the Bible is God's Word. if you believe that it is only what man has written down without divine influence, then you have reason to believe that God does not feel that way. but i believe personally that the Bible is God's Word.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:15 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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oh c'mon!!! I am asking for YOUR opinion. I am not an expert either. I still wanna know, what do YOU think the reason God MIGHT be against homosexuality? did u read my pre-emptive stabs at the logic that might be used? what do you think of that? Why? Why? Why? it's not enough to just say "It is the word of God." You can believe that, but think for yourself. What might be His reasoning?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 05:32 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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why did God make murder a sin? why did God make lying a sin? why did God make adultery a sin? because it is harmful to humankind. so the best answer that i can give you is that He thinks that homosexuality is not in society's best interest. he made both man and woman specifically so they could be partners and be married. if he wanted everyone to be gay, then he never would have created woman.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 08:51 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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hmm. good comparison. murder, lying, adultery. all of these things are harmful. an atheist can see that without knowing or believing in the word of God. don't you see the difference with homosexuality? the very fact that you are not giving me a straight answer beyond "God thinks this and God thinks that" is evidence that there is nothing obviously harmful to humanity about homosexuality. you said, "if he wanted everyone to be gay, then he never would have created woman." When you say that, you're cheating in this argument. No one is saying EVEYONE should be gay. You can just as easily say, "If God wanted everyone to have children (which allegedly he does), he wouldn't have created people who are barren or impotent (of which there are plenty?" Is that a sin too then? The right question to ask - and try to answer - is, what is the harm in SOME PEOPLE being gay? there is none, just as there is no harm in some people being impotent or barren. Not every one has to contribute to humanity in the same way. we all are special in some way as humans and we all have something to give in helping our fellow human beings. So I am gay and I won't have children like you might. I will try to adopt some and make their lives happy. I will love the person I am with and we will make each other happy. If there is a God like the one I think you believe in (and which I too would hope there exists), why would he be against that? And don't, when you try to list reasons why it is harmful, say things like it spreads AIDS, etc. Those are not immutable parts of the homosexual experience. Those things can be improved. those are social and health problems that are not inherent to homosexuality. I mean, is eating chocolate a sin because it statistically is a cause of obesity and thus rampant heart disease (which is a greater health epidemic in America than AIDS)? Of course not. those sins you mentioned above are in an of themselves bad things. There is nothing good about murder, there never will be no matter how you look at it. It should never be tolerated in society. But loving someone of the same gender, I just don't believe an all-good being could have a problem with that. All I am asking is that you think for yourself and examine what is truly right and wrong. I am not insulting you, I am not saying you are stupid or ignorant. I just think in the year 2002 saying"'Cause God said so" just doesn't cut it anymore. I also think an all-good being would want people to question morality and value-systems for themselves.
Finally...you mentioned Bin Laden? In YOUR opinion, if he murdered thousands of people, then genuinely repented at the gate of heaven, and he went to heaven, but a gay, who says to Peter, sorry man, I just don't agree what I did was wrong, I won't repent, and he therefore goes to Hell, do you think that is right?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:23 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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nope, he will go to heaven. our sins are ALREADY forgiven. they were all forgiven 2000 years ago. there is no need to ask for forgiveness. i made a mistake when i said if osama repented... i should have said if he accepted Jesus (which i seriously doubt he would ever do).
lemme make myself clear: GOD LOVES HOMOSEXUALS JUST AS MUCH AS ANYONE ELSE. THEREFORE IF A HOMOSEXUAL BELIEVES THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR THEM AND ROSE ON THE THIRD DAY THEN THEY WILL GO TO HEAVEN.
thank you.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 2:15 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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In the bible it says that homeosexuality is a sin, I personnaly have nothing wrong with them but that is what it says.  But that doesn't mean that god hates them but loves them as long as they imbrase him.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 2:23 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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thank you tsmith!!! its about time that someone knows what i'm talking about. alexander, dont let ANYONE tell you that just because you are a homosexual you cant be a Christian. anyone can be a Christian, as long as you have faith. the Bible says that we are saved by FAITH, not works. if the opposite were true, then none of us would be going to heaven cuz none of us are perfect.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 2:26 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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So basically, if mother teresa renounced jesus on her death bed, and osama bin laden accepted him on his, assuming both did it honestly, the former would burn in hell and the later would go to heaven? This is why I dislike christian theology. I say it IS by actions and not faith that gets us into heaven. Not perfection mind you, but being an overall good person.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 6:41 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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But on the flip side if you are trying to be a true christian and the best one you can be then being gay throws a kink in the system.

(Edited by tsmith2771 11/20/2002 at 6:43 PM).


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 6:42 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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yes, dsa that is true. the Christian FAITH is based on (of course) faith. that is what is so great about it. no matter how scarred of a past that you might have, you can be forgiven. what do you have against forgiveness, dsa?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:30 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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I really can't anwer that question because I hope osama dies of gonorrhea and rots in hell.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 8:46 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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what do i have against forgiveness? nothing, as long as it doesnt become a get out of jail free card where "oh im truly sorry" is a ticket to paradise. If THAT made for a better world, communism would work by now. Forgiveness is fine. But punishment is necessary too. And i believe that providing a reverse incentive to do good, that is, saying that you can do whatever the hell you want as long as u feel guilty later is no way to live. In essence, I cannot accept any system which would grant passage to heaven to a christian, feel-bad-about-himself Osama Bin Laden and cause a outspoken or hindu mother teresa to burn in hell. That is the antithesis, to me, of a just society.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:03 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
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So if didn't believe in the Christian religion but I believed in going to a better place... does that mean that I won't be "accepted" into heaven? And when I made my comment before... Awhile ago... Why is it that you assumed I was a he? I am a she and I am a lesbian at that.  If I had a choice of how I could be accepted into heaven I would rather it be based on the fact that I am a good person... Not that I have asked for forgiveness.  I plan to make the best of my life and my girlfriends... and when the time comes my child.  I should be accepted for loving those around me and accepting them for who they are and not if I say, "Jesus please forgive me..." Why should I have to accept someone that I don't believe in? If everyone sins then what's the point in even have a list of sins??? Rules of life that you can't even follow by because no matter what you do it's considered a sin.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:43 PM on November 21, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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first of all, dont get offended that i assumed u were a guy. maybe you should register and make a name other than "guest". anyhow i accept you for who you are. i dont care if ur gay or straight. its not my position to judge. only God can judge.  second of all, you dont have to ask Jesus to forgive you because he already has. and you dont have to accept someone that you dont believe in. its ur choice whether you wanna go to heaven or not. no one is forcing you to accept anyone.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:51 PM on November 21, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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oh yeah, guest is gay! hey girlfriend, register! us homos gotta stick together! we don't need to go to heaven. we can throw a huge gay party down in hell, only gays and international terrorists invited (all the most boring, moral people will be stuck up in heaven listening to the constant obnoxious plucking of harps). come on, it'll be great! butch, sissy, limp wrists, biker chicks, hey, Hell's got it all! we'll finally be accepted.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 02:21 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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obviously, you have no idea at all what you are talking about. when one goes to hell, they are not with other people. they are ALONE. and heaven is not going to be plucking harps, my friend. and there will be gay people there too. you would be accepted in heaven if you accept Christ...gay or straight


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 02:40 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
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I don't know why people are gay nor do I think it matters. Live and let live.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 2:01 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
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obviously, you have no idea at all what you are talking about. when one goes to hell, they are not with other people. they are ALONE.[quote/" rel="nofollow]

Fallingup, why do u always speak of religion as fact? it isn't. Get over yourself. For all we know, hell might be ice cold. It might be up, not down. It might by in Tupela Mississippi for all we know. There are no religious facts, merely opinions and interpretations. You INTERPRET the bible (which it is your opinion to believe) to say that the only thing that matters is accepting jesus. I interpret that as callous and unethical, as well as unjust for the reasons I have stated elsewhere (justice punishment for bad lives, rewards for good etc.). You interpret that as heretical. But no one can say anything with the certainty that you have.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:57 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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thats fine. you can believe what you want, and i can believe what i want. keep in mind that everytime i discuss my religious opinion, i am not stating that it is a "fact". maybe i should use different language when expressing my opinion. religious topics are always open to interpretation and opinion. this is isnt the first time that i've told this too you either. how many more times will i have to continue telling u?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 5:34 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
Scooter

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The bible never mentions the sexuality alone, outside of the GAY SEX. Simply because there was even more ignorance at that time, than today. Under these terms of the bible, then you can only condem those who YOU KNOW actually have had gay sex outside of love. REGARDLESS weather or not they are "gay".
The bible never mentions gay-sex in love or marriage. If I want to go to heaven I shouldn't have to believe in someone that I think does not egxists(sorry if there is a spelling error there.)  I agree with what dsa had said before towards fallingupwards.  
(Alex so you know I'm the guest from before that you told to register.... Well I DID! ;) as well I was the person who said something like, "I don't know why people are gay nor do I think it matters. Live and let live.")
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 5:44 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
Scooter

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Sorry Alex... I was NOT the person who said that quote I wrote... Opps my bad! Lol
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 5:53 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
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Forgive me for being confused falling. Phrases like "you obviously dont know what you're talking about" have a certain...connotation that implies that the speaker DOES feel she knows what she is talking about.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 7:47 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i apologize. the only reason why i said that was because i myself believe in what i said, but it is definitly an opinion. very few things in this world are "fact"


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:45 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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God cant always be right.  I mean, he asks us to forgive, but we are all doomed because of adam and eve.  What an unforgiving guy.... He didnt even let them apoligize...

Also, gays are just people; let them live, be it by nature or nurture!  Its both though; a kid born to super anti gay parents wontr be gay, but he might because of endorfans...


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 8:45 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
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what do you mean God is an unforgiving guy?? he lets ANYONE apologize. if it wasnt for that we would in fact all be doomed but because God is forgiving, we are not all doomed


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:05 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
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I dunno...God doesn't seem particularly forgiving to me, if the tanach is anything to go on. And I can't imagine why God would have a sudden change of heart to me.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:13 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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dsa, werent you the one who said that God shouldnt forgive us and that we should only go to heaven for good works? now you're saying that God should forgive us


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:44 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
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i don't believe that's exactly what he said fallingup.  i think he was saying that God shouldn't allow admittance into heaven based of faith but on works.  that doesn't have anything to do with forgiveness.  sorry if i'm putting words into your mouth dsa.  please correct me if i'm wrong.  what do you believe about God and forgiveness though, dsa?


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 02:08 AM on November 25, 2002 | IP
    
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