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       Where it all starts, the foundation.

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btimsah

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Nothing shapes our debate on ALL OF THESE issues more than the HOLY BIBLE.  

This is why I write this post.  In hopes, that the new understandings, and findings found in scripture when read with an historical critical approach, give those who happen too be gay-bi-transgendered an oppertunity too live a godly life in the name of the Lord as well as BE GAY, as created BY GOD.  Jesus himself, acknowleged that "Eunichs were created in Gods design".  They can't have kids, and did not marry.  Yet, this very argument is used against gays.  As for the "gay-sex-is-bad" argument that is based on the Bible.. Read the following.


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"Condemn and you will be condemned".

"Judge and you will be judged."
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 3:51 PM on December 14, 2002 | IP
btimsah

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The foundation of the ANTI-GAY rhetoric starts with the old testament in Leviticus, and the story of sodom and gommorah.  

I will prove, that NIETHER of these stories is a foundation of our current understanding of homosexuals.

- Leviticus 18:22 (20:13) -

"You shall not lie with men as with women. It is abomination."

Oh, how simple that is..  Some read that and just cringe, or applaud it.  However, this verse takes more reading.. as others.. for example..

1 Corinthians 7:1

Paul, or someone states that
"It is good for a man not too marry"

Obviously, we cannot take this single verse too condemn married people can we?  NO.

Now, an in depth look at Leviticus reveals the following:

"Abomination" (TO'EBAH) is a technical cultic term for what is RITUALLY UNCLEAN, such as mixed cloth, pork, and intercourse with menstruating women. It's not about a moral or ethical issue. This Holiness Code (chapters 17-26) proscribes men "lying the lyings of women."  (Not Being Homosexual) Such mixing of sex roles was thought to be polluting. But both Jesus and Paul rejected all such ritual distinctions (cf. Mark 7:17-23; Romans 14:14,20). The Fundamentalist Journal admits that this Code condemns "idolatrous practices" and "ceremonial uncleaness" and concludes:  "We are not bound by these commands today."

IN SHORT, WE DON'T FOLLOW LEVITICUS ANYMORE!  So WE ALL MUST STOP USING IT TOO CONDEMN GAYS.

Now, the the ALMOST BIGGER FOUNDATION..  The story of SODOM AND GOMMARAH.

Genesis 19 (cf. 18:20)

According to evangelical Bible scholar William Brownlee: "'sodomy' (so-called) in Genesis is basically oppression of the weak and helpless; and the oppression of the stranger is the basic element of Genesis 19:1-9."  Yale's John Boswell notes that "Sodom is used as a symbol of evil in dozens of places [in the Bible] but not in a single instance is the sin of the Sodomites specified as HOMOSEXUALITY."  Listen to the prophet Ezekiel (16:48-49) on the sin of Sodom:  "As I live, says the Lord God, ... This was the sin of your sister city of Sodom: she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy.  They were arrogant and this was abominable in my eyes." (Cf. Matthew 10:15) The men of Sodom tried to dominate the strangers at Lot's house by subjecting them to sexual abuse.  Such attempted gang-rape is about humiliation and violence, not same-sex affection.  

Okay, I think that makes sense of the two most famous scriptures used too keep Gods gay, lesbian and transgendered children from WORSHIPING AND LOVING JUST LIKE THEIR HETERSEXUAL COUNTERPARTS.

I hope and pray that you will consider this NEW UNDERSTANDING.

-Robert





-------
"Condemn and you will be condemned".

"Judge and you will be judged."
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 4:04 PM on December 14, 2002 | IP
btimsah

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Oh also..  In Judges 19

There is a similar story about a Levite who was traveling with his servant and concubine needed shelter for the night.  He sat in the town square at Gibeah.  No on offered him in except a foreigner who was living in that town.  When they were all inside, the men of the town assaulted the house and demanded to have sex with the Levite.  Just as Lot did, the host protested, "No, my brothers, do not act so wickedly." (Gay sex or rape?) Since this man is my gues, do not do this vile thing."  The host offered his virgin daughter to the townsmaen, but they did not want her.  Then the Levite pushed out his concubine, and the townsmen RAPED HER ALL THROUGH THE NIGHT.  (Should I Blame their heterosexuality for this?) In the morning she lay dead on the doorstep of the house.  In punishment, all the tribes of Israel collected an army and destroyed the town of Gibeah.  Cleary the story of the Levites concubine is indifferent to homosexuality-as is the story of sodom.  A man or a woman would serve as equally valid sex objects.  Rape, in either case IS equally heinous.  Sexual ORIENTATION is not the point.

Obviously, this new research has showed us the light in many areas.  I again, hope you recieve this new understanding and take it into account.[b]


-------
"Condemn and you will be condemned".

"Judge and you will be judged."
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 4:22 PM on December 14, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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watch out, tsmith might get pissed at you for posting 3 times in a row...just kidding. anyway, i was curious to know whether or not u are a christian btimsah


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:08 AM on December 15, 2002 | IP
btimsah

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Yes I am christian.  

I was raised Baptist, but I escaped my litteral-bible-interpretation upbringing and now I read the bible (and understand the message) in an historical critical approach.

We constantly need learning.  Never stop learning!  Grow in your walk, if you stop walking you dont move.  

As for too many posts..  I did'nt know that was bad. lol

-Robert


-------
"Condemn and you will be condemned".

"Judge and you will be judged."
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 12:31 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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i think homophobia is a bad word to use to encompass so many people who oppose homosexuality for so many reasons. yes, i do have a gut feeling that the underlying reason is a feeling that homosexuality is an affront to the values endowed upon masculinity (and less so, femininity - maybe this is why lesbians are seen as more fashionable than gay men). but I don't know of any strong evidence to suggest this, so the word homophobia shouldn't be thrown around as if we all know for sure fear is the driving factor in all cases. i would suggest a few others. stubborness. traditionalism. selfishness. ignornance. and my personal favorite...good ol' fashioned stupidity.


-------
Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:57 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
batchick_sXe

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why must people try to debate with their only support being a book of stories? come on people, if youre goin to debate a topic use facts not crap (in my opinion) that tells people how to live their life. some people say that the bible and god himself oppose homosexualtiy, and others say that it does not. thats support that people people are stupid, and that the bible cant be depended apon. get some facts and keep your religion to yourself.


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-Batchick-

"The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them."
-Albert Einstein
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 9:38 PM on December 17, 2002 | IP
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Well, even some athiests or non-believers get their homophobia from the what is believed too be homophobia in the Bible.  

As someone who is ignorant in the word might say.  "Isnt being gay wrong"?  They get that from somewhere..  

I have studied this issue biblically, and realized that the two most used scriptures are those two I put in their proper context.

In particular the "man lying with the lyings of a woman".  That is LITTERALLY the foundation of homophobia and what all scriptures are bounced off of so too speak.

In some ways, you are right.  I just posted this for those who are bible bashers.  

If you notice, they havent responded.  Which means this post has served its purpose.  Their homophobic ideology has been shown too be in error as it relates too scripture.

-Robert
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 02:43 AM on December 18, 2002 | IP
btimsah

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That was me above, I just couldnt remember my bizare password! lol

-Robert


-------
"Condemn and you will be condemned".

"Judge and you will be judged."
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 02:50 AM on December 18, 2002 | IP
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The foundation for Homophobia is fags forcing their perversions on heterosexuals against their wills. Examples being a homosexual stranger that sits next to you on the bus and feels the "need" to feel up your leg and grab your crotch without first asking if you "swing" that way! The roots of homophobia is an aggressive homosexual that will not take "no" for an answer. The roots of Homophobia is a homosexual man that rapes a heterosexual. And lastly, the roots of homophobia is a homosexual that sexually molests your 5 year old son!

Homophobia=Do not want to be homosexually
                     assualted

Homophobia is nature's way of motivating heterosexuals to protect their genitals and asses, from a certain SIGNIFICANT portion of the gay community that has absolutely no regard for the FACT we find homosexual sex disgusting and take pleasure on FORCING IT upon us against our wills. So long as homosexuals rape and sexually assualt heterosexual males, there will always be homophobia. Want to cure homophobia, stick to yourselves and quit trying to focr homosexual sex on us! And quit FANTASIZING about heterosexual men!

Heteroman
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:59 PM on January 22, 2003 | IP
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what percentage of gays do you think molest children and grab peoples' legs, etc. let's pretend it's 25% (an absurd number). do you think it makes sense to hate an entire people for what one quarter do? i don't rape kids or hit on straight people or spread AIDs, so do you think it makes sense to despise me as you so obviously do because of what other people do? to me, even if your stupid ass facts are right, that still constitutes absolute bigotry.  you make me sick. you are the first and only person on this website that has actually made me physically ill.  
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:11 PM on January 22, 2003 | IP
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Quote from Guest at 6:11 PM on January 22, 2003 :
what percentage of gays do you think molest children and grab peoples' legs, etc. let's pretend it's 25% (an absurd number). do you think it makes sense to hate an entire people for what one quarter do? i don't rape kids or hit on straight people or spread AIDs, so do you think it makes sense to despise me as you so obviously do because of what other people do? to me, even if your stupid ass facts are right, that still constitutes absolute bigotry.  you make me sick. you are the first and only person on this website that has actually made me physically ill.  


Well only at best 1% of heteros make unwanted PHYSICAL advances at women. 99% of straight men are polite and first ASK the women if she's interested FIRST before feeling and touching her up. The fact you ADMIT 25% of gay men RANDOMLY feel and touch up straight men shows that fags are thousands of times more likely to commit rape (and feeling someone up sexually without their consent *IS* rape) than a heterosexual is. Either way all fags are potential rapists and child molesters, therefore I hate all fags. And I don't care WHAT you think of me, I just hope I don't cross you one day. I REALLY hate fags and do not want to be around your kind! And you are only physically ill because of some STD you picked up, you filthy fag!

Heteroman


STRAIGHT PRIDE, WORLD WIDE


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:41 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
btimsah

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Straight man..

What your saying is the same as saying Blacks and niggers were dirty, ignorant, dangerious and not on the same level as whites are.

lol, I did get a laugh at your post though.

You can't condemn all gay's because some gays do things wrong.  Just as I can't condemn YOU for everything straight people do wrong.  

My gawd, read a book!

-Robert


-------
"Condemn and you will be condemned".

"Judge and you will be judged."
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 6:54 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
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Quote from btimsah at 6:54 PM on January 23, 2003 :
Straight man..

What your saying is the same as saying Blacks and niggers were dirty, ignorant, dangerious and not on the same level as whites are.

lol, I did get a laugh at your post though.

You can't condemn all gay's because some gays do things wrong.  Just as I can't condemn YOU for everything straight people do wrong.  

My gawd, read a book!

-Robert


Black is a color, it's morally neutral. Black is black, there is NO comparison. That's like saying oranges are peaches, they ARE NOT!!! Homosexuality is a sexual perversion of the MIND, and homosexuals are predilected to touch other guy's cocks. While black is just,m well, BLACK!!! And do not insult blacks, my wife's brother in law is Jamaican and he's a good doctor. So FUCK OFF you filthy fag!!!

Heteroman

STRAIGHT PRIDE, WORLD WIDE[b][color=red]
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:43 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
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Heteroman:
Can you please calm down and quit swearing?!

btimsah:
There are more than one verses in the Bible against homosexuals. I am not "homophobic" or whatever you call it, but I believe it is wrong.

Romans 1:26-27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also
abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

It's a sad fact, but it is true that homosexuals cannot go to heaven.

-Calli


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:46 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
punk_sushi

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If God rejected a homosexual man just because of his sexual preference, without taking into account perhaps being a wonderful philanthropist, spending multiple hours cleaning up beaches and fighting animal abuse...

... who the hell would want to spend eternity with such a narrow-minded prick anyway?
 


Posts: 25 | Posted: 05:36 AM on January 27, 2003 | IP
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Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been
saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast.

Sorry, but you can't get into heaven through good works. It just doesn't happen that way. So, where would you rather go? Hell?

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:40 PM on January 27, 2003 | IP
Calligirl

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Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been
saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast.

Sorry, but you can't get into heaven through good works. It just doesn't happen that way. So, where would you rather go? Hell?


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Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." -Albert Einstein
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 7:41 PM on January 27, 2003 | IP
punk_sushi

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If not through works and love for other people and humanity, ... faith, even... then how?

There are plenty of homosexual christians, countless, from just my experience, their lives spotted with good deeds and the like. Their faith is stronger than many heterosexual christians (in my experience, anyway), so... technically, with the exception of one factor (their homosexuality, which is even now being debated as to whether or not it really does contradict with the bible)... they've already got one foot in heaven.

And how is it that bad deeds (killing someone) can thrust you into hell, but good deeds don't count for shit when heaven's concerned?

Hell's supposed to be someplace that sucks primarily because of the absence of the divine presence, but if the divine presence has values and beliefs that completely contradict my own, why would I want to be with him? (not that Satan would be much better, but hey, it's not like WE know how he feels about the issue)
 


Posts: 25 | Posted: 12:10 AM on January 29, 2003 | IP
btimsah

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shameful lusts of men and women is a problem, however not being gay.




-------
"Condemn and you will be condemned".

"Judge and you will be judged."
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 5:43 PM on February 6, 2003 | IP
punk_sushi

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Quote from btimsah at 4:43 PM on February 7, 2003 :
shameful lusts of men and women is a problem, however not being gay.




I'm kind of lost in the (seemingly) grammatical errors in your sentence. ...do you mean... shameful lusts of men and women is a sin... but being gay isn't? I'm sort of lost about what you're trying to say.

 


Posts: 25 | Posted: 05:59 AM on February 7, 2003 | IP
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Homosexuality is both a sin against God and mankind. It runs contrary to the divine plan, purpose, and will of God who created us in His image (Genesis 1:27) and redeemed us so that this image, marred because of sin, might be renewed (Colossians 3:10). Most fundamentally, homosexuality is sin because it perverts the created order of human sexuality, the heterosexual fulfillment of both man and woman (1 Corinthians 7:2-5). In creating the first man and woman, God ultimately established the family consisting of a father, a mother, and eventually children. Society is founded on this social unit which propagates the human race. In total contrast, the lifestyle and practice of homosexual couples establish a social unit that thwarts that process and the creative purposes of God for humanity.

Clearly the Bible states homosexual practice is sin. Scriptures which denounce homosexuality are found in both the Old and New Testaments. Advocates of homosexuality often attempt to rationalize, reinterpret, and explain away key biblical truths to justify their acts. Such abuse of inspired Scripture is wrong. Along with the passages that clearly describe homosexual conduct as sin (see below), the Bible speaks repeatedly about God’s divinely ordained plan of heterosexual relationships and marriage.

Genesis 19. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, the "men" of Sodom demand to "know" the angelic visitors of Lot (v.5, KJV). Attempts to describe the request as merely a desire to get acquainted with the strangers does not fit the context. Other biblical passages link Sodom with sexual immorality and perversion (2 Peter 2:6-7; Jude 7).

Leviticus 18:22. The specific command that a man is not to "lie with a man as one lies with a woman; [for] that is detestable" is sometimes attacked by pro-homosexual scholars who argue that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law. But there is a sharp distinction between the dietary or ceremonial laws abolished in the New Testament (Mark 7:19; Hebrews 10:8-10) and the moral laws reinforced in the New Testament. They are still applicable today. Breaking the ceremonial laws resulted in temporary uncleanness; breaking the moral laws meant severe punishment or even death (Leviticus 11 and 24).

Romans 1:26, 27. This New Testament passage is the most pointed and clear condemnation of homosexuality (among men or women) in the Bible. "Women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. . . . Men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." Some pro-homosexual scholars claim that Paul’s statements were addressed to first-century believers and thus are not applicable today. But God’s moral laws do not change.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10. God’s inclusion of homosexual conduct with other specific sexual and social sins is clear from Paul’s first letter to the Corinthian church: "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Some defenders of the homosexual lifestyle have tried to explain away the terms "male prostitutes" and "homosexual offenders" by claiming that they refer to general immoral behavior rather than homosexual practice. But such a meaning of the Greek cannot be found in first-century literature and the translation would result in needless redundancy, for Paul began his list with "the sexually immoral." The two words refer to the sins of passive and active homosexual behavior.

Some pro-homosexual advocates try to refute the biblical injunctions against homosexuality by saying the Bible speaks against promiscuity and prostitution, not against loving, committed gay relationships. Some unfaithful spouses of heterosexual marriages have tried to justify adultery on the same grounds, but nowhere does Scripture suggest that loving, committed relationships of any kind can turn sin into righteousness. God does not permit mankind to reinterpret the clear teaching of Scripture to justify personal sinful desires.

As Christians we must ask what Paul meant in Romans by calling homosexual acts unnatural (Romans 1:26, 27). Human logic tells us they are unnatural because if practiced universally, the human race would soon die out. From a social perspective they are unnatural because they are degrading to the sensitivities of the large majority of the population. (Some homosexuals claim wrongly that 10 percent of the population is homosexual. This exaggerated percentage, based on Alfred Kinsey’s faulty sexual-practices survey in 1948 and 1970, has been accurately set at between 1 and 3 percent in several recent and better documented studies).

One of the myths propounded by pro-homosexual advocates is that homosexual orientation is genetically determined and that people have no choice in the matter. There is no scientific evidence to support this claim. Linking a particular behavior with a specific gene is considered highly unlikely by geneticists. Some would like to believe this myth, for it could be used to excuse all sin and evil behavior. In contrast, ministers and psychologists are treating homosexuality with success, which further discredits the genetic theory. The fact that God’s transforming power has changed the lifestyle of many homosexuals is well documented.

Finally, homosexual acts are unnatural because of their high correlation with major illnesses and terminal disease. In viewing Romans 1:27 we must ask what is the "due penalty" mentioned "for their perversion." Though AIDS is not necessarily a direct judgment from God, as innocents are sometimes the victims of the sin of others, it remains a disastrous overarching consequence of sin through the fall of man (see Genesis 3). Contrary to the claims by homosexual public relations campaigns that gays and lesbians are normal, healthy, average people, the opposite is true. Former homosexuals describe a disgusting lifestyle of perversion and sexual obsession. In a study of the median age of death for heterosexuals and homosexuals, less than 2 per cent of homosexuals survived to age 65 while married and single heterosexual men and women living past 65 ranged from 57 to 80 percent.

Clearly on every front whether it be moral, spiritual, physical, or psychological, the practice of homosexuality has proven itself devoid of any individual good or social benefit. Furthermore, the historical record shows homosexuality as detrimental to the well-being of the individual participant, the extended family, and society at large.

At every turn the Assemblies of God refutes the practice, the acceptance, and the promotion of homosexuality, yet admonishes all Christians to reach out in love to all homosexuals so they too may repent and know the forgiveness and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Some people ask, "Why can’t Christians live and let live, leaving homosexuals alone?" At one time Christians were silent concerning the evil practice of homosexuals. History shows homosexuality has been around since early times, and as long as it was not openly flaunted, homosexuals were seldom challenged. But today, homosexuals have become aggressive in pushing their agenda. The church has been forced to answer.

Today, families with members who choose a homosexual lifestyle sometimes call for social acceptance of the deviant lifestyle. Some churches hearing this cry or impacted by revelations of homosexual clergy within their ranks have responded by advocating a gay-friendly theology of compassion. But lowering God’s holy standards to mankind’s sinful preferences is an abomination in God’s sight. As members of the body of Christ, we must not ignore God’s clear admonitions.

The homosexual agenda has already impacted public education, public policy, the military, government, politics, business, entertainment, media, and religion. As inroads have been made into these areas, both the arts and the media have openly promoted acceptance of its sinful behavior. Major companies are now appealing to the homosexual market through sponsorship of homosexual events that influence general public opinion about homosexuality. Such aggressiveness demands that Christians not sit idly by as this morally deficient agenda is pushed.

In the face of a militant homosexual movement that is pressing for legal and social acceptance of homosexuality, the church must keep its focus. First, homosexuals are sinners like everyone and need God’s grace, love, and forgiveness. Second, homosexuals can through the miracle of the new birth be set free from the power of sin and live changed moral lives. The church must reach out to all sinners with the love of Christ, no matter what the sin. And we must never let the declining moral climate of our nation pressure us into condoning what God condemns.


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:48 PM on February 12, 2003 | IP
duckjaws

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God also so says all sins are the same in his eyes.  That means your just as sinful as a gay man in gods eyes.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 7:25 PM on February 12, 2003 | IP
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Christians are not sinless, just saved.  Yes we are sinners just like people who are homosexuals, but we need to turn from our sin not make laws that normalize it and encourage it.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:30 PM on February 13, 2003 | IP
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"HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN"

Well, at least according to certain verses in the Bible.  However, this does not let the Fundamentalist off the hook. In each occasion where we read of God's displeasure with homosexual behavior, we also read of other displeasing behaviors that either God says he doesn't like but Fundamentalists ignore, or that Fundamentalists dislike and yet God seems to think is okay. Confused? You should be.

The most common reference against homosexuality comes from a story in Genesis. In Chapter 18 of the book, we see God about to destroy the evil twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sends two angels to warn the one godly family of the imminent demise of these cities, only to have the locals demand that these two angels, who appeared like men, come out so they could have sex with them. Of course this didn't please God very much. However, Lot, the father of this one so-called godly family, does an interesting thing. In chapter 19, verse 8, the Bible tells how Lot offered to give his virgin daughters to these men so that they might rape them instead. Is this how God wants us to protect ourselves from the "homosexual agenda," by offering to let them rape our virgin daughters? Ask that to the Fundamentalist and see how much they squirm.

Likewise, in the Old Testament Book of Leviticus, we're told it is wrong for a man to be with another man. However, within the same book we are also told that it is wrong to eat pork. If Fundamentalists use the Leviticus verses, simply ask them when was the last time they had bacon. According to the same Old Testament book that condemns the practice of homosexuality, they would also be condemned to hell for eating a BLT sandwich. However, they would not be committing sin if they still owned slaves, since Leviticus tells us such activity is okay. Think the Fundamentalists will agree with that?

Forced out of the Old Testament in their crusade against homosexuality, the Fundamentalist will quote from Romans, or more specifically from 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, both written by the Apostle Paul. He offers a list of sins that will keep a person out of Heaven. Among them is homosexual behavior. However, also listed among these is adultery. Such a revelation won't phase the Fundamentalists until you remind them that in Luke 16:18 Christ defined a man or woman who has divorced and remarried as also being an adulterer. Ask these Fundamentalists how many of their church's members have been divorced and remarried. Then ask them if their church performs the weddings for these adulterous members. If homosexuality is to be condemned, should not these fellow church goers also be condemned? Challenge these Fundamentalists to go back to their churches and apply the same rules to their adulterous remarried members as they apply to homosexuals. What? They won't do it? Why on earth, then, are they picking on homosexuals? Are they selecting one sin as being worse than another? Of course they are. Why are they allowed to commit some sins yet feel free to condemn someone else's?


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:03 AM on February 14, 2003 | IP
duckjaws

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Here Here
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 4:36 PM on February 14, 2003 | IP
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If homosexuality is not genetic, but a learned behavior, is this were these gays learned to be gay?

1.  Newt Gingrich has a gay sister.  Must have learned it from Newt.

2.  Sonny Bono has a gay daughter.  Must have learned it from Sonny.

3.  Dick Cheney has a gay daughter.  Must have learned it from him (more likely from her mom Lynne Cheney)

4.  Phyllis Schaffly has a gay son.  Must have learned it from Phyllis.

5.  Ronald Reagan has a gay son (or is he a straight ballerina?).  Must have learned it from Ronnie.

All these famous conservative families with gay relatives.  If homosexuality is a learned behavior why are they teaching it to their relatives and then condemning it in public?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 04:07 AM on February 18, 2003 | IP
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To the Guest calling “Fundamentalist” on the carpet.  There are a few things wrong or missing from your argument.

First on the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, when Lot offered up his daughters, you are attributing this action to God, when in fact it was Lot’s idea.  But this rape never happened, because look what the Angels did in versus 10 - "But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door."  God protected the righteous Lot and his family and made sure they escaped before he destroyed the cities.  No need for “Fundamentalist” to squirm here.

Now on the attempt to make “Fundamentalists” squirm with a BLT sandwich.  In a number of places in the New Testament Jesus is recorded as saying all foods are clean. Mark 7:14-19 "Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[6]
17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")"

On slavery – http://www.equip.org/free/DP801.htm has a nice article that deals with many of these arguments, but let me put in the part on slavery here.  
”First and foremost, it should be noted that the Bible does not commend slavery, rather, it recognizes the reality of slavery.  In the ancient world where slavery flourished, the Mosaic Law thus stipulated stringent guidelines such as a year of Jubilee in which slaves were released (Lev. 25:40).  In fact, it was the application of biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel and in the United States of America.  Israel’s liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general.  In America, many are beginning to wake up to the liberating biblical truth that all people are create innately equal (Gen 1:27; Acts 17:26-28; Gal. 3:28).  Furthermore, slavery within an Old Testament context was sanctioned due to economic realities rather than racial or sexual prejudices.  Because bankruptcy laws did not exist, people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery.  A craftsman could, thus use his skills in servitude to discharge a debt.  Even a convicted thief could make restitution by serving as a slave (Exod. 23:3).  Finally, we should note that far from extolling the virtues of slavery, the Bible denounces slavery as sin. The apostle Paul goes so far as to put slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, perverts, and liars (1 Tim. 1:10).  Indeed, slavery is so abhorrent to God that in the final book of the Bible, He condemns the evil systems that perpetuate it.

On being an adulterer because of divorce you make a good point on the hypocrisy of many Christians, yet this truth doesn’t take away from homosexuality being a sin.   Scripture regulates divorce as it pertains to Christians by providing guidelines for two separate groups: marriages in which both partners are Christians; and marriages where only one spouse is a Christian. In the first case, where both husband and wife are professing Christians, neither party is ever to seek a divorce (1 Corinthians 7:10, 11). In the second case (the mixed marriage) the Christian husband or wife should never initiate or seek a divorce from an unbelieving spouse (1 Corinthians 7:12-14). There are only two exceptions that allow for this initiative. A Christian may divorce a spouse only when his/her partner is repeatedly committing the sin of adultery (Matthew 5:32; 19:9), or if the spouse refuses to live with him/her and departs (abandonment) (1 Corinthians 7:15). Both exceptions present the believer with an option; but never a mandate. A better course whenever grace enables it is to forgive marital infidelity and seek healing in the marriage. This choice is especially desirable in cases where children would be further hurt and the family destroyed through divorce. Abandonment (a long-term physical withdrawal from the home with neglect of the responsibilities, support, and duties required of one partner within a marriage) would also prove the spouse's sinful conduct and could eventually allow for divorce.
Abuse poses another threat to marriages. Thousands of women and in some cases men face serious battering and other forms of abuse from their spouses. God is concerned with the physical safety and well-being of all. He does not look lightly upon such actions within marriage or families. In such circumstances a period of separation without divorce may be justified and useful for the healing of persons. If after serious attempts of counseling and reconciliation the abusing spouse departs (abandonment) rather than turning from actions of abuse, 1 Corinthians 7:12-15 permitting divorce would possibly apply
Remarriage. If there are biblical grounds that permit divorce, does that also justify remarriage? Though Old Testament Law permitted divorce (Deuteronomy 24:1-4), it placed limits on remarriage by prohibiting husbands from remarrying their former wives whom they had divorced. In a second marriage the wife was bound to the new marriage covenant. After forming the second marriage covenant she was not to go back to her first husband. The teaching of Jesus seems even more restrictive. He forbade the remarriage of divorced persons, condemning such as an act of adultery (Mark 10:11,12; Luke 16:18). By remarrying, the divorced person commits adultery and also causes the new partner to commit adultery. Jesus, however, made one exception to this rule: marital unfaithfulness (Matthew 5:32, 19:9).
Under what conditions then may remarriage take place? Jesus taught that if a divorce occurs under a biblical exception as stated earlier, one is free to remarry. In other words, one who has been divorced because of the repeated adultery of a partner (Matthew 5:32; 19:9) is not bound by the former marriage and is free to remarry. The exception clause ("except for marital unfaithfulness") refers to a continuing lifestyle of sexual immorality, not necessarily a single act. Wherever possible, sexually immoral practices should be dealt with through repentance, confession, forgiveness, and reconciliation, thus saving the marriage. In no case does Jesus command divorce when unfaithfulness has occurred; He simply allows it. Nor did Jesus command remarriage when divorce has occurred. However, from Matthew 19:9 it seems that Jesus understood that the divorced will often remarry. Remarriage, like the first marriage, should be "in the Lord" (with a Christian).
The second exception for the remarriage of a divorced person is found in 1 Corinthians 7:15. When an unbelieving spouse is unwilling to remain in the marriage and initiates a divorce, the believer is set free from the marriage and can remarry if he or she so chooses without committing adultery.
Where these exceptional circumstances exist, the question of remarriage must be resolved by the believer as he or she walks in the light of God's Word (1 Corinthians 7:15,27,28). Remarriage is a new contract or covenant. Even though the first covenant, because of sin, did not endure, the new covenant must be treated with all the love, commitment, and permanence the first marriage contract should have received.

It is true that we are no longer under the law in terms of our salvation; it is through faith in Christ alone we are saved. But we are to uphold the moral law of God.  In Matthew 5:17 Jesus says, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Romans 3:30-31 - "since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

Jesus did away with many of the ceremonial laws with food, but not with any of the moral laws, adultery, murder, and yes homosexuality.  We are all sinners and none of us deserve forgiveness, especially not on our merit, hence the need for Christ.  It is sad that our society and many in the church have normalized divorce and adultery, but that doesn’t make it right.  Just like normalizing homosexual behavior is not right.  We don't change the message, the message changes us.

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 5:56 PM on February 19, 2003 | IP
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You people have to accept the fact that Christianity is an abrahamic religion like judaism and islam, thats it.  The three of them are backwards religions.  The trinity of evil.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:08 PM on February 19, 2003 | IP
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And what religion do you follow if any?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:25 PM on February 20, 2003 | IP
    
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