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dsadevil

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What do you think Ari is going to say? "All right let me play it straight. The president's tax cut is a huge giveaway alright? I admit it! It is a gift to fatcats." Of course he's going to say something positive. There is a reason I didnt quote the democrats response to it.

Along the way of doing my research, I read that clinton increased the median family income by twice as much real dollars AND increased revenues more than reagan did. My memory and yours cancel out.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 7:31 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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He gave an example... a family of four earning 40,000 a year will get 1,000 in tax relief. I think I heard something about the EITC too.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 7:35 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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but again, he doesnt say how. Ari Fleischer is not on my list of top 10 people I trust for honest info on Bush policy


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:03 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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Hmm... Deomcrats saying Bush needs to help the unemployed and that he's not. The Senate and House just approved an extension of jobless benifeits that the president has been pushing for and the new stimulus package calls for some sort $3000 for use on child care, transportation, training and such. Seems to me like he's trying to help.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 9:12 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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took him long enough, considering that the benefits expired already. Democrats had been pushing that for months.

His $3000 are going to be used for job searchs. Helpful EXCEPT that
a) most people out of a job are already searching for one
b) more money for searching for a job isnt going to help if the jobs arent there to be found.
Its a good idea, but cant survive on its own.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:31 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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The Senate and House had to approve it and he's been pushing them to for quite awhile... now they have.

I just heard the the $3000 is for retraining, transportation, and child care. Where'd you hear otherwise? TV told me.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 9:36 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Bush NEVER  pushed unemployment benefits. They were first pushed by democrats during the debate over the travel bailout. The compromise was that the benefits wouldn't be part of the bill, but republicans would promptly pass them later. They reneged on that promise of course.
Give me one speech between 11/01 and 11/02 where Bush asked for unemployment benefits to be expanded/extended.
I just read an article from the AP on Bush's plan. what it is is this: It gives states funds to create up to $3000 "re-employment" funds. They can use for job searchs, or once they find the church for daycare, transportation etc.. Which is all well and good, but it is neither a stimulus nor a job creator. It is kinda pointless to help people search for jobs when they are next to impossible to find and there is no effort to make more.
I also found the source of your $1000 statement. The tax cut will give an average of $1000 to every tax payer. The catch? Its offsetting next to nothing payments to the midclass with obscene payments to the rich. Example: If I give 2 people a tax break, $9,999 to the rich guy and $1 to the mid class guy, the average is a $5,000 tax break per person. That doesn't make it fair. Bush is using fuzzy math again.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:24 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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Of course a rich person will gain more from the tax cut... They pay most of the tax.

Bush asked Congress to make extending unemplyment benefits their first priority.

There are lots of jobs available... you just have to find them. I think giving people some money to help find the jobs is a good ideas.

Do you agree with the cut of the dividend tax?


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:04 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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I just heard that some analyists said the new tax cut would create a few hundred thousand jobs this year and about a million next year.

Some stuff accelerating old tax cuts will do:
35 million couples will benefit from the speeding up of the elimination of the marriage penalty, originally scheduled to occur in 2009.

26 million families will benefit from moving the $600 child credit to $1000.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:09 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Dividend tax cut: no.
Accelerating rate cuts: Only for the bottom 2 rates.
Marriage Penalty: Don't know enough
Child credit Expansion: support.

There are lots of lowend jobs available for people w.out the education to find the top tier jobs? and by contrast plenty of high end jobs so you dont get an economics phd working at burger king? I doubt it.

Other things needed:
Payroll tax holiday
Rescension of upperclass tax cuts (freeze em)
expansion of EITC
refundable tax rebate (centerpiece of democratic plan)

Whoever said that the tax cut would create that many jobs is either retarded or lying. There is no way it would have that type of effect.

Oh and Please, tell us where you are getting your statistics. I have been kind enough to supply you with numerous cited, detailed sources. You give me alot of "I heard's..." that really doesnt cut it.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:15 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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I got it from TV. They didn't cite an exact source in the report, as they almost never do.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:17 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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Why not get rid of the dividend tax? TV told me half of all people who recieve dividends are seniors who invested in certain stocks to live off the dividends.

I think it's one third of American households that own stock, many stocks that pay dividends.

Eliminating the dividend tax could encourage investment. Why put  money in a bank when you can earn twice as much in a dividend and have the chance of getting capital gains too? There's a bit more risk, but you get a lot more, and you could still invest the money in a safe sector or something.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:25 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Any senior who is "living" off dividends has got to be filthy rich. I don't pity them.

Any money that goes to people is good. But as was stated in the dividend tax thread, income is triple taxed (payroll, income, sales). Dividend is only double taxed, and taxed to different people (income on company, dividend to people). So its already fair. You can make the argument you made to any taxes. 33% own stocks? 100% buy things, why not cut sales tax?

And TV generally cites some source, usually the talking pundit who says the info. But that is kinda why I trust think tanks more than tv. speaking of things that are dumbed down...


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:04 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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Living off of wasn't a good choice of words... Using dividends to back what they have with social security. There.

And if the dividend tax is cut many companies will start offering dividends. That could cause some new investment... I heard some analyists on CNN FN or CNBC saying the problem wasn't with the consumer, it was with investment. True or not true?


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 8:17 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Consumer spending is the only thing keeping the economy afloat, but no one knows why, and it could collapse at any moment. So we need to act quickly to stabilize and expand consumer confidence.

Dividends, I can safely say, are not a driving factor in the economy. Even the conservative American Enterprise Institute, which supports the cuts, says it wouldn't provide for short-term stimulus, but is longterm policy, which isn't what a "stimulus" is supposed to do. (it supports them b/c it never met a tax cut it didnt like)


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:18 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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"I think it's one third of American households that own stock."

The point is not how many people are invested in the stock market, but how much money they have invested.  As Kevin Phillips noted in his book "Wealth and Democracy," while more and more people owned stock during the period, most of these had tiny stakes; with fewer than half owning more in their portfolios than in their cars.  Meanwhile, "the top 1% pocketed 42% of the stockmarket gains between 1989 and 1997, while the top 10% of the population took 86%."

And instead of even helping the average stockholder the Bush plan is tilted towards the very well off.  If you have stocks in a 401(k), as a large portion of workers do, your dividends are already tax-sheltered.  Bush's proposal gives breaks only to people who have stock outside of their retirement accounts.  More than half the benefits would go to people making more than $200,000 per year, and a quarter to people making more than $1 million year.

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 04:56 AM on January 8, 2003 | IP
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They will still benefit...

Deomcratic stimulus gives an average family 500. Republican gives 1000. I got it off of TV... probably an AP report.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 07:51 AM on January 8, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Dem plan: 500 to every family including ones that dont pay taxes
rep plan: 1000 on average, with ALOT more going to the rich and ALOT less going to the poor.
The democratic plan, because it is a STIMULUS is centered on this year, and immediately puts more money into working class pockets than the Bush plan, of which less than 1/6 is used this year. His is longterm tax cuts disguised as stimulus.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:36 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
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Some economists on PBS (which I'm sure we can agree has a liberal stance) said they don't like either plan, but they'd rather have the Bush plan. 500 dollars compared to a thousand for the average family? Phasing out the marriage penalty and almost doubling the child credit 6 years earlier than it was planned for?

Maybe we should look at why people are poor. I think the figure was 67% of black children are born out of wed-lock. Usually the father runs right away, leaving a single mother and family that will probably be poor. Maybe we should work on strengthening areas like this instead of giving them a little money everytime the economy needs to be bailed out...I don't think a rebate every few years is such a great idea.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:51 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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There are billions and billions of reasons for poverty. Single mothers are one of them, but by no means the predominant one. My plan for attacking poverty is an aggressive welfare to work program, an expansion of the EITC, an expansion of the public university system and grants to make more scholarships available to poorer students, increasing funding to poor school districts, putting more cops on the street and universal health and childcare. The problem is there are so many obstacles that prevent people from rising out of poverty, and all need to be addressed.

PBS may be liberal (I dont watch it) but that doesn't mean every guest on the show is. They might have been conservative economists. At least in the Post Article I cited I told you all the economists, so you can look them up yourself.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:53 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
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Don't increase funding. In some places they have doubled or tripled funding to poor school districts and they perform the same or even lower. We need to focus more on getting our schools to be places of education and motivating students.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 08:01 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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agree with you there. Some districts though (esp. in states that link funding to property taxes) need more funding.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:57 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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Increase funding, but withdraw it if performance doesn't improve. That might be the way to go about it.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 6:21 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Considering that schools are not a capitalist entity, withdrawing the funding doesn't work. It just makes the problem worse.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:07 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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If you don't improve with it it's gone... too bad, you had your chance, but your problem isn't funding.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 07:17 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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That kinda sucks for the students in the school that has no funding. I think we can agree that having funding doesn't necessarily solve problems, but having no funding makes problems impossible to solve.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:32 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
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If you increase funding and it doesn't do anything, funding may not be the problem.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:15 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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agreed. But lack of funding is ALWAYS a problem. Increasing it may not solve the problems. But not having the funding makes the problems impossible to be solved.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:06 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
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What are you going to do with the extra money?


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:27 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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buy textbooks, computers, train teachers, renovate classes. Their are billions of ideas. I personally go to public school in a fabolously wealthy district, surrounded by two poor districts (I go to Montgomory County Schools, right next to Prince George's County and Washington DC). I have been advocating for years that we need to somehow siphon some county money off to the poorer districts. Here we are buying boardwalk fries for lunch and having electronic messanging boards (that are never used) all across the school. There the buildings are collapsing because they can't afford to be renovated. If there is one place where socialism isn't just a good idea, but an absolute imperative, it is in the school systems. We need to make SURE that all our nations children, rich or poor have the same chance at success. And I can guarentee you that a Montgomory county schooler has more of chance than a product of DC Schools.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:31 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
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I think all schools should have equal fundung from the federal government, but the problem is that states and individual districts might not like that.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:43 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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the federal government can't fund public schools (directly anyway). That's unconstitutional. So it has to be state intiative.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:47 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
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I forgot about that... I haven't looked the constitution over since I got a nice copy on parchment paper.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 7:38 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
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Nice debate gentlemen.  I just wanted to throw in a link on the original topic of social security.  
http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba215.html

Compares an already privatized plan being used in Texas to the national SS plan.  Enjoy!!

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:06 PM on February 12, 2003 | IP
Atlantis

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Wow!  That was a good debate, however I'd have to give (dsadevil) the win.

During the time period you two were debating this I was un-employed and all I heard was how the economy is improving!  

Well let me tell ya something,  it's not like I was working for a Movie Theater that got slow.  

I'm an elevator constructor (union) and after 9-11 my industry got real slow, people were scared to invest in their buildings.  And no one was building new ones either.  I was off a total of 16 months.

My idea about privatizing the S.S. plan is this:  The government either has to back the promised funds(they have dipped into)  or  lower the benifits.  The quick fix is a sham.  I already have 2 savings accounts, a Roth IRA, and Annuities through the Union, not counting my pension plan.

If I've got to pay into this S.S. plan till I retire, then I want my benefits!  If they want to make it sorta private, then they should just make it all private!  Because once you make even some of it Private, you in effect make it insecure vs. secure!  

If we (the Youth)are going to be all on our own with this I'd rather not pay any into this rip-off scheme, and just have the money now for my own use.

Isn't the whole point of Social Security to ensure everyone has a secure retirement?  

If you make it Private doesn't it become Individual Insecurity?

Well here's a site that's more thorough than anything I've seen posted yet:

Social Security   (101)


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Posts: 27 | Posted: 01:48 AM on February 16, 2005 | IP
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Privatization can only be good. By turning it over to the free market is like car insurance, because every one wants your money they all compete for it by lowering the price as every one els is doing that. Part of the problem with the government is that they have no capitalist competition to contend with.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 06:17 AM on January 9, 2007 | IP
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By turning it over to the free market is like car insurance

Huh?  Go talk to your English teacher.  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 07:00 AM on January 9, 2007 | IP
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Quote the whole sentence next time.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 5:09 PM on January 9, 2007 | IP
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Wouldn't matter.  It still is incoherent.  You could say "Turning it over to the free market is like buying car insurance".  The fact that you start the sentence with "by" means that you are following it up with something, not making a comparison.  "By turning it over to the free market they are...." or something like that.  You can't change the direction of your thought midsentence and expect people to follow you.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 8:04 PM on January 9, 2007 | IP
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Thank you, I will remember that in future posts.


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Darkside Enterprises were the impossible meets possible.

Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 10:13 PM on January 9, 2007 | IP
    
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