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Is the Death Penalty good for society ? 

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/death_penalty.HTM
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 4:02 PM on May 3, 2002 | IP
Jigokusabre

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If sentenced to capitol punishment, a convicted felon dies a prisoner.

If sentenced to life in prison, with no possibility of parole, a convicted felon... dies in prison.

The only real difference between the two is the cause of death. The former's cause of death is lethal injection, electricution, or breathing poisonous gases. The cause of death in the lattter case is over-exposure to temporal succession.

However, life in prison without the possibility of parole, incuurs one risk that the death penalty doesn't. No one escapes from the grave, but people can escape from maximum security prisons. Not executing a murderer gives him the opprotunity to escape from prison, and potentially hurt more victims.

The argument most invoked by those who support the death penality is the issue of innoncents beinbbg executed.

I ask them, how many appeals are there for a person who must spend the rest of his life in jail? Our capitol punishment system requires that death row inmates be given far more appeals than he would normally have, were he a non-death row inmate.

Anti death penalty activists often cite the instances of innocent men being freed from certain execution as a means of showing how flawed the system is. Frankly, I think it's just the opposite. Innocent men being freed is an indication of the system working. How many of these people would be free today had they been given a life sentence? Ironically enough, the death penalty saved their lives, and more importantly, their quality of life. It also increases the chances of the real crimial of being brought to justice.


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Posts: 30 | Posted: 11:06 PM on August 19, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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There is just one problem with that otherwise excellent analysis. In Federal Appealite review, innocence is not an issue. A Federal Appeals court flat out said "The possibilty of the defendants innocence is in itself not enough to grant federal relief." (It's whichever fed appeals circuit has jurisdiction in missouri, i forgot the exact case, but it was recent). So an innocent mistake or overzealous prosecuter can still put an innocent man to death, because in appeals the only issue is procedure, not innocence/guilt.

However, the other facet of this debate which comes out strongly in support of DP is deterrance. A study done by UNC stated that for every execution, an additional 14 murders are deterred, making for a staggering 32,000 lives saved since the DP was reinstated in the 70's. Other studies done by Texas A&M University show that the abolishment of the death penalty has coincided with a drastic rise in crime rates. Even if a few innocents are killed via DP, it seems that by abolishing it would kill many, many more.

To be honest, im undecided on the issue. But I just wanted to point those 2 things out.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:49 PM on August 19, 2002 | IP
bobjoyce

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no
the killing of an unarmed civilian by an civilized, christian society is always wrong and shows barbarism and cowardice
many solutions to violent crime exist;
the execution should be the last and a rare solution, not the first like it is in most of the USA
even if someone "deserves" death, doesn't mean we humans should deal it out.  We can't restore life to those innocents who have died, so just let God deal out such an absolute punishment.


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bobjoyce
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 3:10 PM on September 23, 2002 | IP
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An eye for an eye.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 2:37 PM on September 24, 2002 | IP
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An eye for an eye.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 2:37 PM on September 24, 2002 | IP
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An eye for an eye.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 2:38 PM on September 24, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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i agree.  Kill someone, get killed. only no.  Killing is wrong, but why kill someone?  life in prison is  bad enough punishment.  No more deaath!  :-(


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 5:08 PM on September 24, 2002 | IP
Xenjael

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hmmm...ive trained my entire life because i was almost stabbed to death when i was 4.... i used my tae kwon doe to rbeak a kid's leg and to severly injure him...and believe me, it's is a wierd feelnig when ur doing something like that...it's almost like a hunger, killing is wrong i msut say,self defense isnt
 


Posts: 83 | Posted: 9:07 PM on September 24, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Self defense is not killing, its self defense.  But killing for killing is more death.  Don't you have enough of a corrupt society?  Death sux :'(


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 08:42 AM on September 25, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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How on God's green earth is the death penalty self defense?

And TSmith you seem to be approaching this issue from a religious perspective, don't forget that your quoting ancient Jewish laws that Jesus refuted.  "You have heard it said, and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.  I say to you resist this evil.  Instead love you enemies and turn the other cheek."  For those of you who aren't Christian, I apologize I'm speaking only to TSmith.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 4:39 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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No, I was simply saying an eye for an eye.  That might be a passage from the bible but what I said had nothing to do with catholism.  I simply say you kill someone in cold blood then you yourself should be killed, end of story.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 11:05 PM on October 12, 2002 | IP
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Most people who are for the death penalty would agree that is not for revenge but for punishment.  In 1996 a man in Texas was sentenced to die, and in the two weeks before his execution attempted to kill himself FOUR times.  In all of the instances the staff went to extroidanary measures to save his life.  He was rushed to the emergency room twice, and in another instance a correctional officer sustained serious injuries trying to wrestle a razorblade the man was attempting to swallow from him.  Why?  "Justice" would be served however the man died.  The reason is that the families and the state and the nation wanted to watch this man die.  They wanted to pull the trigger, to get their vengeance.  They wanted to hear his last words, and see his last breath, and then rejoice in his death.  It's barbaric.  We don't care about justice, we care about indulging our own feelings of hate, the same kind of hate that the man had when he did the crime.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 11:18 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
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You have a point, but thats human nature, that is ingrown in every one of us.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 02:03 AM on October 14, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Sometimes when when I get really mad at someone, like raging furious, I honestly want to kill them.  Sometimes when I see a beautiful woman, I want to forget she is a person and I want to treat her like a piece of meat.  Sometimes I want to hate people because they are different from me.  But I don't, we supress our human natures everyday, because if veryone went around following their "nature", which is nothing more than the whim we happen t be riding at the current instant, we would live on chaos.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 09:33 AM on October 14, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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I believe thats just EMOTIONS.  a death penalty is basically teaching prisoners that they will learn nothing in prison because they will die anyway.  Life in prison leads to more just prisoners, and good behavior can make parole eligable if none is granted in some places.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 7:34 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
mrmazet

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Quote from Exxoss at 08:42 AM on September 25, 2002 :
Self defense is not killing, its self defense.


No offense meant to you, but, if someone's trying to kill me and I shot them with a gun, then I killed them. I didn't self defense them. I killed them.

Maybe I didn't murder them becuase it was self defense, but I did kill them.
 


Posts: 122 | Posted: 4:15 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
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The death penalty should be band by all setes if we use the death penalty on murders we are no better than any of them.

                            Desmond
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:58 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
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if you say its like an eye for an eye that may be right but think if we kill killers we are no better than them
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:01 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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you need to realize that there is a difference between killing and murder...a murderer should be killed. A person that kills doesnt do it in cold blood, a person that murders does it in cold blood


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 01:19 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
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The death penalty is wrong.  We shouldn't be killing more humans off, there are other ways.  We are no better than them by killing them.  We need to show them why what they did was wrong and at least try to help them.  If we cannot do that, we can always stick them in a barrel and force feed them ;)[color=fuchsia]
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:47 AM on November 4, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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no killing isnt wrong, murder is wrong. Criminals murder which is horrendous and for there actions we should kiil them to prevent it from happening again and to alleviate our prison from overpopulating and to spend less money on prisoners..after all it is our tax money and i dont want to pay for murderes to live so i will say kill them.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 11:10 AM on November 4, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Judging by your previous posts I do believe you are a Christian madbilly, and if I am wrong I apologize and you can just ignore me.  

"You have heard it said, 'an eye for an eye', but I say to you resist this evil and turn the other cheek."  

I know that this doesn't apply if your not a christian, but from this I don't see how anyone who claims to be could possibly justify being for the death penalty.  Christians are, by definition, followers of Christ, and he very clearly and quite bluntly says it's wrong and evil.  





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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 11:43 AM on November 4, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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okay but how many times where peole stoned in the bible? they where killed for crimes and what about solomon and his battles...he killed many people but in war. The bible says "thou shall not commit murder" not as many people believe "thou shall not kill" there is a difference. What about david he killed goliath didnt he...why? bc they wrere at war and goliath had killed many people and he deserved to die for his "crimes"


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 1:32 PM on November 4, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Did God stone people?  Did Jesus?  No, on the contrary he saved them from stonings?  "He who has not sinned may throw the first stone?" ring a bell.  There is proof right there....according to what he himself said he is the only one in the crowd who has the right to stone the woman, but he shows her compassion.  

And the bible is as much a historical text as it is religious, the fact that people were stoned back then in no way meant that the practice was sanctioned by God.  It simply meant that the government put it into effect.  David and Goliath was self defense, completely different than taking a person that has been rendered harmless with life in prison and killling them.  Same with Soloman, you said yourself it was a time of war.  I fail to see the relevance.

The bottom line is that Jesus Christ, God on Earth and the embodyment of everything we are supposed to be said capitol punishment, the only differences being that it wasn't clled capitol punishment back then.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 3:14 PM on November 4, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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did god stone people you ask....yes remeber saddam and gomorroh...he hell fired and brim STONED them....david and goliath was not self defense....david went to go fight goliath, for no reason other than to kill him, david was not attaced bc goliath told him that he was just a sheppard boy and should leave but instaed david killed him. When you kill someone you go to war with the population that thinks murder is wrong....so murderers should get the death penalty.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 2:58 PM on November 13, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for an eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
-Jesus speaking in Matthew 5:38-39


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:38 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Exactly.  As I've said a thousand times.  Point-blank period.  To be christian AND pro-capitol punishment is to look Jesus in the face and tell him he's wrong.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 01:53 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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until the United States bans the death penalty, our country will be hypocritical because we condone murder but then we do it ourselves. (this goes with abortion as well)


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:53 PM on November 21, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i'm gonna get slammed for that last comment


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:54 PM on November 21, 2002 | IP
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WHat better way to show people that killing is wrong than by the government killing people? Hmm...
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:58 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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exactly


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 5:35 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
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When examining the death penalty, I think we can all agree that the government has one objective in the entire murder part of the criminal justice system: saving as many lives as possible. I'll be willing to grant fallings point that perhaps even killing murderers is bad. But we have to look at this from a utlitatarian perspective: greatest good for greatest number. And from that perspective the question comes up: does the death penalty end more lives than it saves? And the answer is a resounding no.
According to a study done by Stephen K. Layson of the University of North Carolina, for every murderer executed, 18 lives are saved by the deterrant effect. In addition, he states that 13,000 people have been killed by released, paroled, or escaped murderers. It is also alleged that 23 innocent people have been executed since the death penalty was reinstated in the early 1970s, out of 700 executions. So lets crunch some numbers. Our ratio of innocents executed to lives saved is 23:12,600 (18x700), total executed to lives saved is 700:12,600 and that doesn't include what ever fraction of the 13,000 deaths by escaped/released offenders which would have been averted. The death penalty saves lives. But even if you dont accept these statistics, consider this quote by John McAdams, Professor of Political Science at Marquette University:
"If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."
Fallingup also says we should "turn the other cheek" to a murderer, i.e., we shouldn't seek revenge. But all sentencing is revenge in the sense that we are holding people accountable for their actions and involutnarily doing something negative to them as a result. So we can only assume that he means we should release all murderers back on the street to kill again. A study of paroled Oregon murderers stated that 1 in 20 committed a subsequent homocide in the first 5 years of release. But fallingupwards needn't worry we are too harsh on murderers sentencing. According the US department of Justice, the average time served on a murder conviction is less than 6 years.
Finally people keep saying that it is barbaric for the US to kill people knowingly. By this logic the premise behind our war on terror is faulty too, because every once in awhile a bomb falls astray and kills an innocent. But by not bombing and not fighting these tyrannical regimes, we doom even more people to death and lives of oppression. We can look to Elie Wiesel, nobel prize winner and holocaust survivor, describing the bombing of the area around Auschwitz in his book "Night." He said that he and his compatriots did not fear the bombs, because they represented freedom to him and death to his oppressors, and the fact that one might fall on his head did not trouble him.
The question that needs to be asked is, which more immoral?
Killing a few innocent and guilty men to save the lives of many more innocents OR
Saving a few innocent and guilty men, but doom many times as much to death?
You decide.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:22 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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How does killing a man save more lives than locking him up for life?  It's 0 innocent lives and 1 guilty versus, 0 innocent and 0 guilty.  And the death penalty is not cost effective.  In North Carolina, my homestate, life without parole, averaged at 55 years, costs the state $750,000 per man.  Execution after a capitol punishment trial, death row security and centers, maintenance and the actual execution costs the state on average, $2.3 million per person.

In either case the man will never see the street again, he'll never be a danger to society again.  The only difference is that execution costs more, is morally questionable, and leads to public instability.  All it would take is the government actually enforcing no parole sentences and the lives saved would even out.  Which is easier?


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 04:27 AM on November 25, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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it is not saving lives when the government chooses to execute an individual instead of locking him up for life. if a criminal is given a life sentence, he will not be able to harm society anymore.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:48 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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if you just keep locking everybody up for life, eventually youll run out of room.  if you murdered someone in cold blood, that is to say not in self defense or accident, then you should die.


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 2:42 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
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you believe firmly in retribution don't you maynard?



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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 3:49 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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maynard, your argument is ridiculous. for example, China has over a billion people in it and is overcrowded. by your logic, that means we should kill about 30% of them in order to make space.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 5:18 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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Quote from Cool-Hand-Dave at 3:49 PM on November 25, 2002 :
you believe firmly in retribution don't you maynard?




yes i do


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 5:21 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 5:18 PM on November 25, 2002 :
maynard, your argument is ridiculous. for example, China has over a billion people in it and is overcrowded. by your logic, that means we should kill about 30% of them in order to make space.



if that 30% murders somebody and is sentenced to life, then yeah, if not then no.


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 5:22 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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"if you murdered someone in cold blood, that is to say not in self defense or accident, then you should die."

According to who?



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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 7:24 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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me.


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 12:07 PM on November 26, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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thistown, i am familiar with study you quote on the cost-effectiveness of the death penalty. That study has been throughly debunked, as it counts only the cost of imprisonment (and average cost for the prison system as a whole, not cost of a max security cell where a murderer will be held) for life-imprisonment, but it calculates the cost of max-sec cell AND trial AND appeals for the death penalty. The Justice for All group analyzed the study and said that it understated life-imprisonment costs by around $5 million. But to be honest, I don't think that cost-effectiveness is an issue in a debate on justice. Justice is not a commodity, it can't be meausred by price. So neither side should use cost as an argument. But as to the saving lives, you missed the entire point of my post, which was that the lives saved by the dp's detterant factor far outweigh the people killed by it, thus saving lives. I even gave the ratio of people killed to innocents saved: 700:12600 and that's CONSERVATIVE (not factoring in murders done by escaped or paroled or otherwise released murderers).


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:14 PM on November 26, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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could you put that ratio in lowest terms, dsa.

(Edited by Cool-Hand-Dave 11/26/2002 at 6:06 PM).


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Posts: 134 | Posted: 6:05 PM on November 26, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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18:1 (its nice and neat too!)


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:02 PM on November 26, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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i was just kidding.  but thanks.  it is pretty nice and neat.  


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:51 PM on November 26, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Quote from thistownwilleatu at 7:24 PM on November 25, 2002 :
"if you murdered someone in cold blood, that is to say not in self defense or accident, then you should die."

According to who?



Me.





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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 04:35 AM on December 11, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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all death sucks. capital punishment, abortion, war, etc...


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 1:16 PM on December 11, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Yeah it does suck but its a part of life.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 5:19 PM on December 11, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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those three things do not have to


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:46 PM on December 11, 2002 | IP
    
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