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thistownwilleatu

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Where have you heard all this news?  Of kuwaitees beating Americans, of planes being fired upon?  I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm simply asking why?  Why did the Kuwait citizens beat Americans?  All we have is what American media tells us, and my friend if you believe that America is not just as biased as any other country your incredibly wrong.  We call it propaganda.  We are probably going to war, so therefore the media will overemphasize some, and completely forget some, depending on which will either encourage citizen support, or suppress it, depending on the individual bias of the individual media.  You're simply spouting what you've been force-fed.

I think that we have to be more careful when choosing our wars than your, "they pissed me off, my gas prices are up, let's nuke em approach".  Is the threat greater now as it stands "x" country, or will the threat by the intensification of their hate towards us after we attack them?  


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 01:54 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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are you kidding...you havnt heard this news...oh my....its all over yahoo....routers....assosiated press...the TV news is ran by liberals and is biased severly against the war and Bush in general, that is where most people get there neews and that is probaly why you havnt heard about our planes being shot at...which happens all the time just for your info...Iraq has been randomly shooting at our planes since 1998, and britains as well. And 2 more american soldiers where killed by kuwaiti citizens...this is the second time in the last two months this has happened...just go to yahoo and read some of those stories about the middle east and it will tell you briefly about these....and listen to news on the radio like a talk radio station on AM...also i like to read the israeli post which is a news paper out of israel translated to english...and i speak german so i often go to german yahoo and read their stories...so i am not getting juust the american media news but also germanies (anti war) also


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:02 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Ok I checked a few sources, BBC, CNN, and routers and you've slightly misrepresented the Kuwaiti story.  It wasn't Kuwaiti citizens in the plural, it was a cop, as in one cop, singular, alone.  Is this reason to nuke a country, because a lone cop shot 2 Americans?  If you're going by this logic the African American faction in the US had every right to kill whites, and bomb government buildings after the Rodney King beating.  No that's not right, you can't judge, punish, and destroy a vast population based on the actions of one freaking cop.  Come on.  In your post you made it sound like Kuwaitee citizens as a whole were killing American soldiers, brutally beating them to death by the droves.  The fact that the New England sniper was muslim, does that give us the right to bomb every muslim nation, or the nation he came from.  No.  It's called common sense.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 03:15 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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this is not the first incidence of the kuwatis doing this though.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:18 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Name others.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 03:19 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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sorry forgot to add this...i did not mention any thing about the sniper bc he/they where not from these countries...we need a war on the arab countries not neccessarily the people,,,maybe the religion if you focus on the fundamentalist but leave the normal alone. A country has rules defined that it must live by and these arab countries constantly defile them...we must stop them immediatly.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:20 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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what about the two marines killed by kuwatis several months ago while training for dessert operation on manuevers.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:21 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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also the USS cole was believed to be bombed by kuwati citizens who have not yet been found (you remeber the ship that was attacked with bombs during the clinton administration) killing several seamen


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:22 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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After the rodney king beating?  Granted he didn't deserve to get beat that bad but for the most part, he deserved a good wacking for his actions.

War with Iraq is inevitable, everything we hear about in the news or read about in the paper is probably only a tenth of the actual stuff going on.  Attacking a British plane in my mind is just as bad as attacking an american plane.  Thats all the reason I need.  




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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 06:20 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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The USS Cole was a terrorist attack, there are Al Queda in England, English citizens, there are members of Al Queda in Canada....NUKE EM!!!!

You can't go to war with a country over the actions of a handful of it's citizens.  Did Kuwait the country organize or sanction the acts?  Of course not.  You deal with the individuals individually, you don't destroy a society to punish a dozen people.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 09:23 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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since when did it become truth that one or even a few american lives are worth more than thousands of lives of muslim or arab or whatever (maybe it would be best to say non-caucasian) men, women, and children.  not to mention throwing in the lives of a couple more thousand american soldiers.  its ridiculous.  


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 09:29 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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the reason american lives are worth more?...good question, american lives are valued more by our military because american lives pay taxes for that protection. The people of other countries dont pay taxes to america, and why should we care about there lives (im talking about our military caring not us regular citizens) if a country's people hate americans as adamantly as the citizens of iraq, and palestine then why should we stop short of killing civilians. These civilians that protest us and despise us and burn american flags are terrorist. They support terrorism, they donate to terrorism, they would hide terrorist if they had to, abd so on and so forth....quit being a pussy and whining about arabs being killed, like they are these innocent nice people. They are evil look at there actions, they threw parties when the found out about september 11, they say prayers every friday over loud speakers praying for allah to destroy america, and all its citizens to die...what great people, we should kill of all of these people that participate in these actions...quit being a little pacifist girlie man and do whats right....


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 12:45 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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there are members of al queda in cnanada nad britain....but the difference is that these two governments dont give them money and let them have fun, they find them and arrest them, no arab country seems like it wants to do this....arabs love terrorist, havnt you noticed.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 12:48 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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money is always the motivator


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 1:42 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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money is the root of all evil...every war and every murder and every robberery and ever crime just about has something to do with money, or religion. Even if money was the motivator to this war, they have still committted acts which need repremand, so they deserve what is coming..we need to liberate the people of iraq and the middle east of their tyrranical governments.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 1:54 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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There are people in America who burn the flag.  Who hate America.  The difference is that your hate has blinded you.  You've taken a small populations actions and generalized it to every person in the Middle East.  You are a racist, and in no decision to say what's right.  

And I especially love your word choice, "pussy", "girlie man"?  I have an 8 year old brother who grew out of that years ago.  I live in western North Carolina, I see people like you every day, we just ignore their racist babble and move on.  You're no different.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 2:37 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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just a question, madbilly?  what right do you have to call me a pussy, and pacifist girlie man or whatever it was?  you speak from fear.  the only answer you have to terrorism is revenge, and childish, instinctive trait.  it takes more bravery, and courage to say "i forgive you" than to pull a trigger and put a bullet into someone.  you say you're not, but i find it hard to believe that do not consider yourself a bigot and a racist.  yeah lets just kill all of the innocent people in a country because madbilly assumes they support terrorism.  are you there madbilly?  have you talked to any of those innocent people?  i think not.  and thistown is right.  by your definition, we are going to have to nuke england, canada, and ourselves as well the middle east, because some of al queda's members are found there.  if you must "deal" with someone in order to quench your insatiable desire for revenge, just deal with those who are guilty.  maybe i can give an example of what you are saying about murdering innocents:  lets say that an african american group in the u.s. that hated white folks, and killed some of them and had parties to celebrate the death.  so you're saying that we need to kill all african americans in the u.s.  use logic, man.  an american life is most certainly not worth more than the life of anybody else on this earth.  the only reason that people can think americans are better is because america said so.  and if america said it then it must be true, because after all, america is the greatest country in the world and it is capable of doing no wrong.  i hope my cynicism just shines through.  did you ever stop to think that if america wasn't such a greed driven nation that we might not so many enemies.  i'm sorry, but i can find absolutely no trace of intelligence in your opinion on this topic


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 2:42 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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wow im racist...did you know my roomate is from jamaica....he is black, and he is also the AandP (airframe and power plant technician) that works on my plane. Secondly if i was racist then why would i say the samr thing about the northern ireland problem. Thirdly for you not to like a person that is racist bc he is racist, is descriminating against that persons beliefs, so since you and i have different beliefs then i will say that you are blinded by your beliefs also and it holds the same amount of water as what you said. Fourthly we have been fired upon by iraq and need to destroy them...and if i was racist then i would say that we need internment camps for any muslims in america, kinda like we did to japanese in ww2. But i didnt say this now did I. Quit trying to demonize people...this tactic has failed the democrats lately in all there elections hasnt it. People who have no viable means to prove a pont demonize the opposition of what they are saying...dont say im demonizing the arabs bc im only saying things that they have actually done.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 2:47 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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and cool hand about nuking england and canada...read up a few post i have already answed that. also i never said america can do no wrong...we did wrong in vietnam...speaking of vietnam those innocent women and children would run up to our soldiers and prtend to be friends and then drop a grenade and run. Also the innocent women and children acted as spies and also picked up arms and fought back...also in another thread i said that america should have been an isolationist nation, but it is now too late for that we have already done things that we can not un do so we are stuck as an interventionist counrtry.

(Edited by madbilly 11/22/2002 at 2:54 PM).


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 2:50 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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well madbilly,  would sit back and watch america be invaded and destroyed?  neither would the people of the countries we've fought against.  that is a common sense answer. and you only responded to one of my points.  


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 3:29 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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well have you talked to these "innocent peole". No one makes these people live under a repressive govt...they could have a civil war and over throw there evil govt...but they dont..are they lazy or do they like there govt...the answer is that they love there govt...so they are responsible for the govt actions. they did after all elect these people into office...when Germany was invaded by russia in ww2 everyone that was physically able ran like hell from berlin...these people could run like hell from baghdad when the war starts.and if they dont it is there problem.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 3:33 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Saddam has killed thousands of his citizens.  He has tested his chemical and biological weapons on his won citizens.  Of course they hate him.  Can they say it?  No.  They would be killed.  Can they vote him out?  Of course not.  Can they rise up against him and overthrow him and his armies?  You'd have to be an idiot to think that they could.  To say that they're lazy because they can't stand up to tanks and armies is just stupid.  


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 4:55 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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All of you have made great points but you have to look at the facts.  One 9/11 people in arab countries had parties to celebrate americans dying.  They play proganda over loud speakers calling for the death of all american citizens, they fired on british planes, they openly void all treaties that have been made.  They have more or less declared war on america without saying it.  But the problem is that they know we could sent one tenth of our military there and bomb them back to the byzantine empire so they only do these actions in moderation so as they dont recieve too much attention.  Granted not all are guilty of anti-american discrimination but the ones that are need to be delt with.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 7:22 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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We value freedom of speech very highly here in the US?  We think that to restrict it is a crime against the individual?  I know that legally and politically this freedom this freedom does end at our borders, but apparently we as Americans believe that they have the right to expression, as long as the individual citizens leave it at speech?  

We demonize the enemy with propaganda on a smaller scale when we are at war.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 8:31 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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tsmith, you have a great sense of humor. "bomb them back to the byzantine empire". hahahahahahha


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:52 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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but seriously, america really sucks right now. the united states has changed soooo much since the early years right after its independence. back then, we minded our own business and avoided "entangling alliances"


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:54 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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That was then and this is now though, you change with the times.  Sometimes the change isn't good but still needed.  And as for alliances go, firing on any thing british is no different then firing on anything american in my mind.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 10:25 PM on November 22, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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yeah, cause isolationism never caused any problems for America or the world. that whole Hitler thing, I'm sure it was a fluke. Look, the question of who is responsible for all this anti-Americanism is very complex. Maybe then U.S. is for helping Israel so much. Maybe it's the regimes in the Middle East themselves which in no way represent their peoples' culture or values and actually use oil profits to keep people down (heck, UBL hates these guys too, calling them "apostate regimes"). Maybe it is every country that buys oil from these regimes (helping them keep down their own populations...isn't it interesting how France, Russia, and China all oppose force to oust Saddam, and they coincidently all have the biggest oil contracts with him...but I'm sure it's just big-ol bad USA that cares about oil and theyt are just being altruistic). point is, it needs to stop. In some places, perhaps like Iran, there elements that can successful without external intervention. I don't believe so in Iraq. Saddam's got thatb place locked down too tight. I don't agree with madbilly in any way, except for the fact that yes, I do think the President and the military must value American life over others (not absolutely of course..he shouldn't drop the atom bomb to save 1 American). maybe after saddam falls, other dictators will see the threat of a being overthrown as great enough to be willing to make some changes to satisfy the West's disgust with authoritarianism.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:15 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i agree with alexander, isolationism never caused any problems


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:20 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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i agree with isolation ism also...thing is that america has already (since before i was even born) taken a role that it cant back out of. And saddam can be voted out of office....while the crazy people in iraq are sadistical, they still do have honest to god free lections believe it or not. No one will be shot for going against saddam, saddam is the president and is equivilent to our gerge bush in most every thing except he has more control directly over the military....saddam has oposition politicaly..he is in the Baathe party which is a hardcore conservative muslim party..the opposition favors peace but no one in the country hardly voted for the other candidates in Iraqs past election...saddam received 99.6 percent of its vote....why do you believe that these cant vote against him or oppose him or they will be shot...secondly (i have made this mistake in hast also) iraqis arent even considered arab..they are persians.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 01:22 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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tsmith is the man. Firing at an Isralei or british plane is the same as firing on one of ours. These "innocent " people also look at the palestinian suicide bombers as martyrs and heroes and teach students about there lives and there history. Iraq also gave money to Al-Queda.  Iraq also took over Kuwait for no reason and unprovoked. Iraq also went to war with Iran for nine years for no reason. Iraq also gassed and killed thousands of Kurds for no reason, There was no public outcry for this. The people  where jubilent over Kuwait being taken over. Iraq has no complied with any foreign policies,,,it has broke every treaty it has been in. It also kicked out weapons inspectors in 1998 and is just now letting them back in bc they realize that george bush isnt lacking a backbone like old bill clinton. Do you remeber how many terrorist attacks took place under clinton...the barracks of marines that was bombed.. the Uss cole...how long does this have to happen before we stand up and so "no more". The time is now. We need to do it before the hot arid summer of iraq kicks in. Winter is the ideal time for the military to strike. Saddam knows this and thats is why he agreed to let the inspectors back, but watch  and see if he doesnt kick them out this summer bc he knows we wont strike in the summer bc it will not be good on soldiers and our helicopters will over heat and wont be able to fly long bc the engines and cooling systems will get jammed with sand and will overheat in the hot temps....same with our tanks. Thata scientist said that saddam will have nuclear missles in six months and that was said in october..after winter saddam will have nuclear missles to launch at israel if we dont act now..saddam has bought enough time to last a century ....going back to the byzantines...more like persia (they are persian)


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 01:35 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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madbilly, if anyone speaks out against Saddam, then they will immediately be either imprisoned or executed. doesnt sound like the citizens of iraq have much of a choice, does it


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 02:37 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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oh what the hell, lets just nuke iraq anyway and kill all their citizens. after all, an iraqi's life isnt nearly as important as an american. (i hope u guys recognize sarcasm when u read it)


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 02:38 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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where did you get this crap about iraqis being imprisoned and stuff for speaking out. There are a lot of catholics living in Iraq and they speak out all the time. They are not imprisoned. Just recently iraq hosted relics of some catholic saint, these people speak out against islam just by being catholic and they are not imprisoned....seriously why do you believe that only certain countries have free lections...why dont you believe that iraq doesnt, and if iraq doesnt and is this hostile towards its citizens then there is another reason to go to war.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:16 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Thanks madbilly for your compliment but I have to tell you the persian empire came after the byzantine and were both in present day iran and iraq.  The byzantine empire fell way before christ was ever around, way before the romans.  They were in power around the same time the greeks were.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 03:31 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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im just aying that the iraqis arent arabians but ethnically persians..its like calling a columbian a mexican.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:52 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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actually, the byzantine empire fell in the 15th century. Constantinople was its capital. after the empire fell, the Ottomans took over. the persian empire was in BC


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 04:04 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Actually you are right, I got them confused for some reason.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 04:34 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
Bograt

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About the killing if civilians: WAR IS HELL!!! I cannot state that loud enough. No matter how good our technology gets or how good our intel is, there will always be civilian casualties.
What do you do if terrorists use human shields? think they don't? think again, Saddam uses them all the time. (In every public apperance, notice the hordes of "admirers" surrounding him very close?) what then, Kill a few civies to get to him or what?


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 2:58 PM on December 6, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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He tests nerve gas on those same people but granted we shouldn't stoop to his level.  Send a sniper in with a .308 and get him.  The man is a menace to any american and if you think he is not then you are blinded by your love the world ideas.  In a perfect world peace would work, unfortunaly this isn't a perfect world.  The greatest way to start a war is by peace.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 05:50 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Give me an example of a war started by peace.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 06:06 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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ummm...I've been away from this forum for a while but I never meant to say I agree with isolationism. that was sarcasm.

and example of a war started by a peace? WWII.

Saddam Hussein is trying to get weapons of mass destruction. He kills his own citizens. He invades his neighbors. He destabilizes the region and is a murderer. He has to go.

Now, if I had my choice, I'd solve the Palestinian-Israeli thing first, cause otherwise this is just gonna be another example of American interventionism for moderate Arabs who we might be able to win over otherwise.

and the WAR IS HELL is such a misused phrase. yeah, war sucks, but it is the responsibility of civilized nations, even when fighting for a just cause, to use all just means at their disposal.

personally, I hope the first shot fired in the new Gulf War is right through Saddam's puny brain...


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:42 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Actually I can't claim that quote, Albert Einstien said it.  And its simple if you think about it.  There will always be agressors and the second you let your gaurd down they will come at you.  Do you honestly think if the united states got rid of all its military that we wouldn't have people invading us the next day?  And yes WWII is an example of that quote.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 03:58 AM on December 11, 2002 | IP
sourbubblegum

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I dont think it should be up to us to solve the problem. its their problem not ours. We shouldnt have to worry about helping them out when we have our own country to look after. Let the middle east countries solve their own problems.


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Our days are numbered. Live each day to the fullest because there may not be a tomorrow.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 9:43 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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sourbubblegum...

are u a christian? what is yourt religion? do you think Jesus thought compassion for your fellow human stopped at your national border? should we have not stopped the holocaust? should we have not helped in WWI? should we just sit in our country now and let the world burn?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 07:55 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
sourbubblegum

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Alexander

And whenever our country needs help nobody ever offers to give us a hand. I just think that we should not get involved in anything. we can become neutral like some other countries.


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Our days are numbered. Live each day to the fullest because there may not be a tomorrow.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 09:29 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Nobody ever gives us a hand? Does anyone recall the days post 9/11? I think we were offered a couple hands at least.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:37 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
debategirl88

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If we don't go to war now, we WILL later on in the future. They HATE Americans. If    we take them out now and build there govt. the way it should be, we will have less trouble in the future.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 4:23 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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oh, you mean like in Iran! Or do you mean Chile? Or perhaps like in Cuba? Or any latin American country for that matter...


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 6:00 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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c'mon, dsadevil:

there are some distringuishing things about Iraq.
1. saddam has a history (recent) of invading neighbors
2. he wants Weapons of Mass Destruction and left alone will get them soon (a few years)
3. he kills his own people
4. he has (and perhaps still does) support terrorism

i think there are no latin american countries with all those
now, iran is a huge problem. has many of the same problems, but with one big difference. i agree with analysts who say there is a VERY quickly growing element of civil society that is moving towards the objective of changing/democratrizing their own govt. if the iranians can do this without us pounding the crap outr of their country in a war, so much trhe better. i don't think that can be said of iraq. the only people capable of organizing resistance to saddam have shown themselves tro be bickering powermongers and mostly scumbags. an outside power needs to intervene.

that said, i have to say i have changed my mind about the urgency of the situatrion. trhe situatrion w/ nortrh korea in my mind is a bigger deal, and i don't think the bush administratrion (or any for trhat matter) can effectively manage both of trhese foreign policy issues at the same time. one has to be discarded for the time being, and it should be iraq.

and a note to debategirl and other people here who are religious:
why does it seem that the religious folk are the most eager to kill, and to lump a whole people into some evil category?
"They HATE Americans. If    we take them out now and build there govt. the way it should be, we will have less trouble in the future."
If we take them out now? they? was this genocidal statement made by someone who has "God Bless America" at the bottom of all her posts???


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 04:07 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
    
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