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dsadevil

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My last comment was referring solely to Debategirls ludicrious assumption that when we enter countries and "fix" their govts., it all becomes well and good.
Iran with the Shah (set up by the US, overthrown by the Ayotollah), Chile with Pinochet (put into office via CIA coup, 1973) and Cuba with Castro (overthrowing the US installed govt.) are all products of US "establishing good governments".

Iraq is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but it is hardly the primary concern. First comes Al-Qaeda/Afghanistan, obviously (and anyone who thinks we are done there isnt paying attention). Then N. Korea, but that problem would be a whole lot easier to deal with if Bush would be willing to try a diplomatic approach. Then Iraq, but who knows where we'll be by the time we get there?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:03 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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Pinochet has always been an interesting subject. THere were a lot of bad things that happened under him, but he did make Chile better economically and did step down... That's a mix...

I think most people from Iran would want the Shah back today if he was still alive... There will be a revolt over there very soon.

Those three that you named may have been unpopular at the time, but would they be now? They don't like Castro, they don't like the Ayotollah.

Offered hands after 9/11? Not really. About six months later it was basically forgotten by all of them... then so recently after we have the German prime minister (who's name I will not ravage by trying to spell... I think I know how, but it's not worth being wrong...lol) winning relection on antiamerican rhetoric. Chirac is back to his old ways too. Then there's Chretien saying we deserved it... looks like like they took those hands back pretty fast.

What about Afghanistan? I think the people are happy with that government.

You know that if deomocracy comes to Iraq it will come to the region. Next we'll start arming people in Iran to free themselves! That's two of the three on the axis of evil! Then all the other dictatorships will be in danger of falling because Iraq and Iran will boom and prosper as Democracies. Do you not think that true? Most of the people want freedom! Let's support them and get rid of future threats!

Here's what wrote about Iraq in another post: If we shared our proof against Iraq we would expose how we got it. Do we really want to tell Saddam that we have some sources in certaina areas of his government giving us information? Support for the US in Europe is already gone. Look at Germany! We had to do a lot to get France with us. We don't have to prove anything to anyone, in my opinion. Those people in Europe aren't worrying so much about a dirty bomb going off in a major city and thousands dying, do they? They don't have to worry about biological agents going to terrorists who will use them to kill as many people as possible, do they? Not yet, but they probably will, and that's why the lack of cooperation out of everyone but Great Britain and a little from France and Spain is so surprising to me. How many more Iraqis have to starve under Saddam, be executed under Saddam, or be gassed to death in some experiment by Saddam? Iraq has great potential, and the country wants to be liberated! THere are over 150 groups formed by Iraqis that oppose Saddam... they have to operate outside of Iraq, though. Iraqis approach journalists on the street and tell them they are waiting and want to be liberated. How long does the human rights abuse continue? How many more have to to die before the world will let us liberate the country? How many? I'd really like to know how many more you are willing to let him kill because he certainly has no problem killing them. Him suspecting you are against his rule is enough for a private torture and execution session. How many innocent people will be dead before someone will let the bombs fall and the bullets fly? Sure, some innocent people will die in the liberation of the country, but it will be much less than those who would have died.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 7:58 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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All those examples were meant to show was that US nation building has tended to yield chaos. Would Iranians want the shah? Not really, the would want a democracy. Would Chile prefer Pinochet to Allele? Please, he was a freely elected leader that Kissenger deposed. The point is is that, when we put into place a govt for our own interests, it either a) is worse than the one before (Pinochet) or b) is seen as a puppet, and is overthrown for something even worse. the net effect is nearly always bad. And Afghanistan needs a little more time before judging i think.

Schroeder (the german PM) mentioned in his campaign his anger of US unilateralism. A legitimate grief.

I just watched CNN last night. They were following the UN inspectors into the northern city of Mosul. Here is a direct quote "I tried to interfere these people, but it almost immediately turned into a pro-saddam rally. When I went over to these girls leaving school, same thing occured." I am not sure how angry the majority of Iraqis are. Sure they are being exploited viciously, but Hussein is a master of turning anger into anti-american and anti-israel sentiment, and appears to have successfully convinced a large portion of his people that Israel is attacking IRAQ, not Hussein's regime.

And the question of whether Iraq and Iran will boom and prosper as a democracy is shaky at best. Can anyone say Africa? If we went in and invaded those two countries, I would guess that Iraq would dissolve into regional fighting and bickering (balkanization) and Iran would stablize rather quickly. But thats just me.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:43 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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A huge percentage of the Iranian people want freedom. Should the Iraqis achieve it they'll probably start fighting for it to.

You know very well that those Saddam rallies usually are forced... what you don't see are the soldiers with heavy weapons behind the rally.

I think there's a mole in the inspection team because the target of the inspection always seems to be expecting it. They only haven't once. It would be very easy to have soldiers that are stationed everywhere to go tell people that they better say good things or else.

A lot of Iraqis approach American journalists and tell them that they're waiting to be liberated and will support the US too...

Iraq will boom as a democracy! The sanctions will be lifted and the people of Iraq, who are educated compared to those in the region, will prosper. Iraq can start selling the oil and use the money to rebuild the country.

Schroeder denounced the war and said Germany would support it no matter what basically.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:02 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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Allende's government was the marxist coalition... Pinochet did establish a constitution that eventually brought the country back to Democracy. Can anyone argue that the economy didn't do better under Pinochet? But his political opression was the bad part. It was probably his undoing... thousands of Chileans disappeared which is what probably didn't get him re-elected.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:15 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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There is so much Kissinger bashing out there! I don't think the man did such a bad job... he was a key negotiater in ending Vietnam and he shared a Nobel prize for it, he greatly improved Arab-Israeli relations...


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:20 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Are Saddam's rallies mostly forced? Undoubtledly. Would CNN, at somepoint, have mentioned the "men with heavy weaponary in the background"? undoubtedly. Is it a double standard to say that people who walk up on the street an ask to be freed are 100% honest, but people who walk up and shout "I support Saddam" are 100% coerced? yep.
Even US military analysts are worried about the post-war Iraq. Its so fractured right now, and those 150 opposittion groups will turn on each other faster than you can say "Afghanistan"
Schroeder denouncing the war hardly qualfies as anti-american rhetoric. Its a legitimate policy position.

Now on to Chile. Allelle was a socialist. He was a FREELY ELECTED socialist. Kissinger said quote "We are not going to sit back and let a country turn socialist due to the irresponsibilty of its own people." I never, EVER, will support the US undermining a freely elected government so it can put in a dictatorship more suitable to its taste. That runs contrary to every fiber of my moral being. Can I argue that the economy would have been fine under Allelle? yep. Pinochet is a criminal, he ran a criminal regime. No other way around it. The disperrances had far worse consequences then just "keeping him from being re-elected," which seems to be your only concern.

As for Kissenger bashing, I am mixed on him. On one hand, he was a retard when it came to Chile and Iran, and Vietnam could have been ended much easier. But at times his aggressiveness was a benefit. My conclusion? He was entirely one dimensional, just aggression agression aggression. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didnt.  Oh, I wouldn't be so quick to extoll how great the Israel/Arab relationship is now.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:49 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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You see heavily armed soldiers in almost every picture of Iraq you see. They're always there.

Well, he mainly improved Egyptian-Israeli relations. It was much easier under Sadat.

There's not always something wrong with protecting people from their own stupidity in my opinion. The Marxist Coalition? I'd have to a little more on what it was going to do to the country. Pinochet did improve the economy, and had he not politically oppressed the people so much and had he cut down on the corruption in the regime I bet he'd have been re-elcected.

You don't always know what will ultimately happen when you support a coup. You do what you think is best for the nation.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 1:20 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Great. so i take you would support every person who voted for Gore and still thinks Bush is an idiot trying a coup against him? that's not how a democracy works.

I still find it ironic how you keep talkign about gen. pinochet being "reelected" considering he didnt even allow elections for 25 years, and wasn't "elected" to start his term anyway.

I didn't see any armed guys in the CNN interview I was talking about. besides, if they are always there, wouldn't they shoot the guys walking up and asking to be liberated?

Egyptian/Israeli relationship is in the toilet now, thanks to Egypts govt. controlled press trying to revive the protocols of the elders of zion. Tell me though, wasn't camp david signed under Carter?

I would hold that YOU dont do what you think is best for the nation, you let the nation decide what is best for itself, and stay the hell out of its elections.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:22 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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That almost never happens and you know it.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 7:22 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Which of my 5 paragraphs doesnt ever happen and i know it?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 7:34 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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THe last one.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 7:39 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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what, countries actually allowing other nations to have free elections? wow I must be naive. I could have sworn that if Chile came in an said "we are not going to let a nation turn facist due to the irresponsibilty of its own people" and deposed Nixon (or Bush or whomever it pleases you), you wouldn't be so quick to justify it.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:05 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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If the people make a stupid choice the government almost always will find a way to stop their will.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 9:08 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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You mean if OTHER people make a "stupid" (to us) choice, OUR govt. will try and stop them. Which is entirely unjustifable, and afoul of the principles of a democracy.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:32 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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If I'm not mistaken the Marxist Coalition wouldn't have been good for the Chilean economy. I seem to remember reading that somewhere as being a main reason for the coup in Chile. Maybe preventing a problem that we'd be called into before it happened would have been a good idea. I'm going to try to find somewhere to find out... I seem to remember reading about this but I can't remember where. Anyone know where to get a detailed political and economic history for Chile? lol


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 9:39 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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How naive can you be? the main reason for the coup was to prevent any support for the soviet union. Pinochet may have been an oppressive dictator, but at least he was pro-american.

I just read the World Book Encyclopedia article on Chile's history. It looks like both Allende and Pinochet messed up the economy, Allende screwing up the upper class and Pinochet screwing the lower class. The differences is that:
a) Allende was elected
b) He didn't make people "disappear"
The proper US response would have been to express its disapproval with Chilean policies, then WAIT FOR THE PEOPLE to elect Allende out. IF he became a dictator and didnt allow, then they could act as well. But it appears that everything he did, he did with a mandate from the people.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:33 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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I didn't find any mention of that being the main reason for the coup...Actually, nothing at all about the Soviet Union. The only thing my stupid encyclopedia talked about was economics.

Did they have some evidence showing that Chile may support the Soviet Union under Allende?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:15 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Well let's think. USSR = Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Allende was a socialist. Considering the world division that happened during the cold war, chile would have to line up on one side or the other. Who do you think it would have been?

This entire thing traces back to Dulles' policy of containment, that we need to "contain" communism and keep it from spreading. That was the centerpiece of us foreign policy throughout the cold war, and there is no reason to expect Chile would be an exception.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:07 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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I know what USSR stood for, and I know Allende was a socialist, but that doesn't mean all socialists would side with the Soviet Union.

Communism and socialism are different systems based on the writings of Marx, are they not? I agree with containing communism, but communism isn't socialism, is it? How does Allende being a socialist make Chile communist? Am I just confused on government systems here?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 8:28 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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communism is a theory of govt.. it is impossible to achieve. Socialism is a govt. system that is moving towards communism. Hence Union of Soviet SOCIALIST republics. during the cold war, we just lumped them all together as "communist." But Allende and the USSR were similar in political beliefs (of course Allende was a democrat, which is a major difference). There was no split within the capitalist and socialist (communist) camps. That's why the US supported any govt that was not socialist, even if they were dictatorships (e.g. Mugabe in Zimbabwe and arap Moi in Kenya) and the USSR supporting all communist states (except China, which it feared. But China didn't operate on an int'l stage). So every country made a "choice," US or USSR. there was no neutrality. And Allende almost certainly courted soviet support.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:23 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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Then out with the Marxist Coalition in Chile


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 07:43 AM on January 8, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Tell me...do you believe that the Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe is at least as bad as Chile's? or the Arap moi regime in Kenya?


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:38 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
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Who is more of a threat? I probably would have said Chile compared to poor African nations.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:37 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Not a threat (I doubt Chile even at its height could have attacked the US in any manner). Are they morally equally bad?


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:57 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
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But the Soviets could have taken control of Chile because of their influence or something.

They are all probably equally morally bad.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 6:43 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Great. If these regimes are as morally bad as Allende's, by your logic we should have ousted presidents Nixon through Reagan for supporting them. Let me run you through the points you made that logically force you to come to that conclusion.
1) We have the right to oust govts. that are "bad" or support "bad" things
2) The US continually supported Kenya, Zimbabwe and other dictatorships throughout the cold war
3) Thus, the US was supporting "bad" things
4) Thus, the people of Kenya would have been totally justified in deposing Nixon.
5) The fact that Nixon was democratically elected is irrelevant (just as you said it was with Allende)

Oh and btw, the odds of the Soviets occupying Chile then using it as a staging grounds for invasion of the US seems slim. They could stage anything they wanted from Siberia across the Bering strait anyway. The odds of them using Chile to invade us were the same as us using Kenya to invade them. Its not a legit argument.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:58 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
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If you support us we'll support you. Still happening today, is it not? A lot of our "allies" support bad things or do bad things.

Allende wanted to improve relations with other socialist or communist countries and wanted to socialize major sectors of the economy. I think I might see that as a threat.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 08:16 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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what threat is it? doesn't hurt the US economy, b/c according to you, socialism doesn't provide major economic benefits. What is the "threat" in allowing other nations to choose their leadership the same way we choose ours? Is democracy only good enough for the US and Europe? You are being quite paternalistic.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:59 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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Being friends of the enemy makes you a potential threat.

Hi Russia! Missiles? Invasion? I guess you can put them here...


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 6:20 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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Oh OK. So Russia could have deposed, well let's see, all of w. Europe and Turkey b/c we were their allies (and we stuck missiles in Turkey)? You are merely trying to create a double standard that America can do whatever it wants.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:09 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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America can and always has done whatever it wants.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 07:19 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
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Undoubtedly. Im merely saying
a) we shouldn't
b) its morally wrong


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:33 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
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I doubt that'll stop us.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:14 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
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I doubt it too. I'm just placing my opinion into the ring.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:06 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
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If no one had ever liked everything we'd done, I'd think they would've done something a long time ago.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:28 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Not really. We are too unilateralist to care. People don't like what we are doing to Cuba and we are still embargoing them. And they aren't going to stop us. What are they going to do? America is the sole hegemon in the world. No matter how ticked off they get, they can't touch us.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:33 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
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Castro deserves that embargo


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:48 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Every other country in the world disagrees. And I do too. I am a firm believer in the power of the free exchange of ideas, that if we just bombard them with tourists and example of american freedom, they will change. I mean, look at China. The huge influx of western tourism has worked wonders. And that's a regime with a human rights policy 10x worse than Cuba.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:49 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
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Castro's almost dead... I bet he'd use money from embargoes being lifted to try and take over South America and Latin America again


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 7:45 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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again? and who says the money would be going straight into his pockets? the money of other countries doesn't seem to.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:33 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
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He had his plans to take over the region, if we give Cuba more money he may try it again.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:09 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Wow...I've never seen real life paranoid conservatism before. I always thought it was a myth.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:48 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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castro take over latin america. hmmm. i knew there was one country we stupidly left off of the Axis of Evil list. Cuba! first Hispaniola, then Equador, then....the WORLD!!!


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 04:13 AM on January 12, 2003 | IP
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This particular problem will be solved by a dynamic leader rising up with a European ancestry. This man will make a peace treaty, and many will admire his glory. The Bible tells us that this man is the man of sin, the beast, the wicked one. There will be universal chip of some sort as part of the treaty (or directly after the treaty), whoever takes this has become an enemy of the True and Living God, and will have no further opportunity to repent (this is the mind that has wisdom). Therefore be ready that that day does not take you by storm.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:31 PM on February 9, 2003 | IP
fcuk_bush

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it is stupid for one to think that we should try to eliminate terrorism all over the world, because that is clearly impossible. how many countries would we have to invade and how much money would we have to spend and how many people would have to die to get to the point were the pussies in this country finally feel safe. I for one don't feel anymore safe than I did before this war with iraq because atleast then we didn't have as many countries being as anti-american as they are now. What makes it more stupid is that we in this country face terrorism everyday when nothing is done. The terrorism I'm talking about is gangs and violence, along with poverty, lack of medical care and school funds. I live in chicago, and I witness this everyday with the gangs in my school, the violence out in the street, the poor kids in my school and out in the stree, the kids that are sick, and the school itself with old books and computers. It is so sick to think that is cost 4 million dollars per cruise missile and more for everything else when all the public schools in chicago and most big cities are being neglected because of this war and the cost of it. I bet it would take at the most 10 million dollars for all schools just in chicago to be fixed up and fully functional, giving kids the best possible education. What about health care? In Canada, the country we always make fun of, people that are citizens without insurance are able to go to an emergency room and get about ten stitches and pay absolutely nothing. Going to a dentist to get braces or whatever the hell they need dont pay nothing as well.  People here who don't have insurance cant recieve crap because it's expensive as hell. This is supposedly the wealthiest country and look at how we are living?! Anyways, we went into this war to dissarm Saddam, not because he's a dictator and a murderer, and our army hasn't found anything. Now because of these bastards, we're apying for the destruction of Iraq and the lives lost over NOTHING! If we can easily ignore the starving and genocide of children and women in other countries, including israel, cause that's what they're doing to palestinian's, what difference does it make with iraq. How is it that if we are saving the people they aren't greeting us with open arms, only in Baghdad. But in all the other footage you see, they're flicking us off! Now we are going to americanize them with sbc and att and starbucks and gap jeans like we did with Kuwait. So in a way you can say Iraqis benefit from this, in a sick way, but projects and poverty and gangs and violence still exist in this corrupt ass country. It would be such a favour if some country would invade our country, take out our son of a bitch president, and give us what they have, authentic liberty and a true democracy


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yours,
fcuk_bush
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 4:06 PM on May 16, 2003 | IP
Inu-Yasha-Girl

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It really is none of our business. We just mess things up by going in there!


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Are you suggesting coconuts migrate? :p
 


Posts: 53 | Posted: 09:13 AM on May 19, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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Inu Yasha Girl- perhaps I can offer you a little information. In our previous discussions, you've made it apparent that you're sensative to the degredation of women. If you aren't aware: middle eastern cultures are predominantly muslim (of varying degrees). Muslims look at women as possessions, not as people. They are owned by their husbands. Some middle eastern cultures encourage women's clits to be cut off because they believe that a woman shouldn't feel pleasure. Her job is to pleasure her husband, cook for him, and all out serve him.

Another point is that some of these terrorist nations around the world hate america. It's not so much that we've done anything to them (despite liberal ravings about how we oppress and bully them). These are people who tell their citizens that Allah will take them to a land of seven virgins (remember how they treat women) if they strap a bomb to their chest and run into a jewish dinner, bus or school (yes a school full of elementary school kids). These terrorist nations are based on a will to destroy. That's not to say that all Middle Eastern countries are terrorist states, but some of them are. I think it's a matter of envy and jealousy. The extremist muslims preach "kill the infadels" (infadels are anyone who doesn't believe in the muslim koran). If the issue isn't addressed, either by calming the middle eastern muslims down, or by acts of force, they will continue to attack america and isreal and our citizens abroad. Attacks like 9/11, the bombing of our embassy in Africa, the bombing of the building in Saudi Arabia (which I might add killed more muslims then it did americans but it goes to show you these people care about nothing but destruction), and other terrorist actions have MADE it our business.


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 5:07 PM on May 20, 2003 | IP
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Quote from StormCrow at 5:07 PM on May 20, 2003 :
Muslims look at women as possessions, not as people. They are owned by their husbands.


Refresh my memory. Is it Muslims or Jews who open every service by thanking God (or G_d) that He didn't make them a woman?




Another point is that some of these terrorist nations around the world hate america. It's not so much that we've done anything to them (despite liberal ravings about how we oppress and bully them).


Hundreds of thousands dead in our wars (Korea, Vietnam, Grenda, Lebanon (our weapons and support), occupation, ethnic cleansing, internal repression by American client states -- and those silly foriengers take it personally!


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 5:14 PM on January 12, 2004 | IP
wolvenlife

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People living today need to learn to love each other in the sense that they are both kind and considerate to each other with good intentions. We all want to harmonize with one another so take down the walls of negative emotions.  We all know what is right and wrong or sin and greater good, kindness and hatred, ying and yang whatever you call your form of basic good and bad.  These are just different forms of the same idea but yet we fight to make it our own idea in selfish reverence of inner pride. Unknown and large quantities of humans are killing and dying, scared and surviving; both sides of the fight are from an idea known as the human beings.  Are they bad men? Can’t say! Not up to me. Are they brave men? Of course. I am not here to judge these people.  I am just planting an idea. At the same time would these people enjoy being at home and spending time with families or something other than having to survive on the knowledge that they are against the enemy and their selves were the good guys trying to help?  No matter what side you’re on you have to think this.  With that kind of hostility, how is anything to be solved.  
instead of fighting violence with violence lets not fight at all. Lets all admit to our wrong doings to one another. Let America be first to drop its pride off at the door and say sorry and admit the wrong that it has done to so many people. Let the chains of pride be broken by humbling ourselves and asking for forgiveness.  Plant that seed, and see how many nations will follow.  Let the people with truthful and knowledgeable tongues do the talking not the militaries and the militias with there guns.  That does no good except spread and condone the violence. It only spreads the disease which will only lead to the death of all of us.    
 


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