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   Peace in the Middle East
     Israel vs. the Middle East
       Who's really to blame in the Israeli/Arab conflict

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thistownwilleatu

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aviationnet.com, aviationnow.com, businessweek.com, to name a few.  Except business week gave the starting salary at $21,000.  The 747 thing came from jobsmart so that probably is wrong, the rest seems to be pretty accurate.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 12:51 AM on November 7, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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im going to call your bs on this one i went to buisinessweek.com and they had the pilots starting pay...and this is by no means in a 747 bc no one starts in an aircraft that big as 56- 90 thousand a year on the national average.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:01 AM on November 7, 2002 | IP
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Hey madbilly, since you want to fly planes, but it takes along time to get enough hours to become a commercial pilot, why don't you join the military and learn to fly there for free?  Especially, since you always seem to want to kill terrorist, it seem like a perfect fit.  But oh wait a minute, then you would actually have to put YOUR BUTT in harms way, instead of just talking tough you would actually have to be tough.  Guess I answered my own question.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 03:37 AM on November 7, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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no. the reason you dont join the military is bc in order to get commisioned to fly you have to be a commissioned officer...this takes years to get that promotion...i am twenty and legally need to be twenty three to fly in airlines so in tthree years i will have enough hours and be old enoufgh...the military would not let me fly unless i sighned on for a long time and got promoted to an officer...so i wanted the shortest way, i did pay na arm and a leg.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 11:56 AM on November 7, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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just to renew the topic and hopefully start off from  anew without all the tangents in mind,,,,i will say the arabs are at fault


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:13 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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They're both at fault.  Israel's backed the Palestinians into a corner and they are responding in the only way that a society without a sufficient military can.  That in no way makes it right.  You can't determine the moral standing of a nation based on whether they are US allies.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 03:21 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Let's say the situation were the exact same, save that the US was in league with Palestine instead of Israel.  How would public opinion be different?


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 03:24 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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okay....now let me ask you a question...lets say tomorrow france comes to america and by some stroke of faith wins a battle and takes over all the land that we bought from them in the louisiana purchase....several years later we win it back...now the french speaking people are mad bc we took back the land that bought from them, which they stole back, and the french start suicide bombing us....this is fairly close to what palestine is doing to israel. The land has always since any records have been keep, belonged to the hebrews. The islamic people have taken it over several times but the jews always take it back. This time in stead of taking it back by force the jewish peole legally bought all the land with money, and signed contracts legally and fair to own all the land. Now the palestenians want it back for free, after israle has worked hard and developed it from a dessert to a thriving country. The palestinians already have their own country called jordan, but they want more. Ask DSAdevil he will tell you the smae...read some of the other post and you will get the idea of why the palestinians are wrong.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:30 AM on November 22, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Its arabs fault; they already had enough land, have sold israel AND dont need the jewish holy land - - they have mecca! their just being greedy punks...


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 4:41 PM on November 26, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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yes they are.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:25 AM on November 27, 2002 | IP
Chai

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They are punks, but is Israel right for doing all this bimbing? Does that make them any better? But then again, what else are they supposed to do? It's only partially a religious issue. The religion is just what the suicide bombers have been indoctrinated to think. They're just pissed that the Israelis made the desert bloom and want a piece of it. And dsadevil, you'd be amazed how many pre-palestine Jews are out there. I'm not one of them, but it still amazes me.
 


Posts: 30 | Posted: 4:51 PM on December 2, 2002 | IP
locagirl

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pre-palestine jews? HUH???? can i have some evidence for that one?
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 5:52 PM on December 2, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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yes, there were pre-palistine jews. jews inhabited the region for a couple thousand years...before the Palestinians ever were in the region.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:55 AM on December 3, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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where did i say that there were no pre-palestine jews?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:52 PM on December 4, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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locagirl did


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:10 PM on December 4, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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im not locagirl. you said "dsadevil, you may be interested to know that..."


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 01:29 AM on December 5, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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we need to unleash israel and let them take out those bastard palestinians.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:53 AM on December 5, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i never said "dsadevil, you may be interested to know that..."


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:58 PM on December 5, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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i was reffering to chai's post, sorry


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:24 PM on December 5, 2002 | IP
idunno

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i would like to see israel survive with out american aid, as far as im concerned it has become another u.s. state and i dont pay my taxes to fund Jews

see u in hell

(Edited by idunno 10/20/2003 at 09:50 AM).


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we may b human but we r still animals
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 2:20 PM on October 17, 2003 | IP
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Motivations for becoming a suicide bomber: 1) Instant ascention to paridise upon death 2) Martyrdom 3) Cleansing the world; sending the world into pureness 4) Jihad (Holy War) 5) Fighting against the corruption caused by the US.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 5:27 PM on November 22, 2003 | IP
recyclingstud

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the middle east war started in 1947


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weegv
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 10:58 PM on November 24, 2003 | IP
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Technically it started way befor that in the biblical days. Sarah was getting older and she hadnt been able to have any kids. Thinking Hashem (god) had forgotten his promise to her (that her and Abraham's children would number more then the stars in the sky), she gave Abraham her maidservant Hagar and they lay together and soon concived a child.

But as soon as Hagar had seen she had concived she derided Sarah for her barrenness. And Sarah, furious, went to Abraham and complaind. Abraham told Sarah to punish Hagar as she saw fit. Sarah treated Hagar harshly as punishment and so Hagar fled.

And as Hagar sat weeping by a spring in the Desert an angel appeard befor her and asked "Hagar, maidservent of Sarah, where have you come from and where are you going?"
Hagar replied "I am running away from Sarah my mistress."
The angel told Hagar to return to Sarah. The angel also promised Hahar that she would bear a son named Ishmael, and that he would be a wild man whose hand was against every one and everyones hand against him. The angel also promised her that her offspring would number in abundence.

So Hagar returned to Sarah and in time Sarah bore a son named Isaac. And when Isaac was weaned Abraham threw a great feast. At the feast Sarah spied Ishmael mocking her son. She went to Abraham and told to cast out Hagar and her son. Abraham was distressed but god told him to listen to Sarah and not to worry. God said that while Ishmael was not Abrahams true son Ishmael was still one of his offspring. This ment that Ishmael would also be the father of nations.

And so it came to pass that Isaac was the father of the Hebrews (Jews) ans Ishmael was the father of the Arab nations. I would like to note that this story is just a myth and that nither side put much faith it it. Im not sure if they even use it anymore as a reason to keep fighting .
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:48 AM on November 27, 2003 | IP
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The present conflict began in the 1880s, when Zionist settlers (olim) begin purchasing land from absentee landlords (effendis) and expelling the Arab tenent farmers (fellahin).

At the same time or a little later, Zionists in Europe founded political Zionism, which basically meant appealing to the colonial powers -- Britian, Germany, Belgium -- for assistance in gaining control of territory on which to establish a Jewish state.

From the begining, Palestinians were deeply hostile to Zionism, because they recognized, correctly, that Palestine could not be transformed into a Jewish homeland without taking Palestinian land and preventing Palestinian independence.

Understanding of Zionism's ultimate aim -- although the Zionist movement refused, for decades, to speak of it openly -- combined with the local friction created by land purchases, land seizures, illegal immigration, and the arrogant and abusive behavior of the newcomers.

Whose fault is the present conflict? It's easiest to say both sides are at fault, which of course they are. But only one side is the agressor, only one side fought for discriminatory laws benifiting them, lied about their intentions, recruited hundreds of informants and fifth columnists to try and bluff, bribe, and bully their way to control of land which had been continously Arab since the 7th century AD. I have to go with the Jewish colonial state as primarily responable for the conflict.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:43 PM on January 12, 2004 | IP
Josh_953

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I suggest to all of you that you read a history book. In 1948 the Palestinians fled because of Jewish terrorism. In the 30's and 40's there were two jewish terrorist groups, the Hagnanuh (later the IDF) and the Irgun. In fact, Israel has had two Prime Ministers (both members of the Likud party) that were in the the Irgun, Mechanem Begin, and Yihtzak Shamir. Ariel Sharon was Begin's Minister of Defence and in his term Sharon allowed christian terrorists in Labanon to go into a refugee camp and slaughter Arab refugee. Sharon had agreed to guard this camp for the UN. When the Palestinian civilians left Israel it was not because they could not bear living in the same country as Jews, it was because the Jewish terrorist group the Irgun went into the Palestinian village of Dayr Yassin near Jerusalem and killed 250 civilians. The Terrorism in Israel is, and has been, a two way street. Israel arguabley still uses terrorism. Israel's gunships regularley commit "targeted" killings. These killings always kill civialians along with the suspected terrorist. The Israelis also have a nasty habit of destroying the neighbourhood in which the terrorist resided with bull dozers. When you say that the Arabs sold the land to Israel, this is partly true. In the 30's the jews set something up called the "Jewish National Fund", which was a pool of money that was committed to buying as much land as possible from the Arabs. Altough most of the land that was sold to the Jews was not lived on by the owners. Most of the owners resided in other areas of the Middle East. The Jews would buy the land, and commence the eviction of any arab living on it. Would this not incite hate if someone did this to your country? While it is true that the Jews were there first, it is also true that the Jews were not there for about 2000 years. Also, the vast majority of the land in Israel was not bought from the Arabs, it was seized in war or flimsy legal procedures. The first intifada was brought on by special treatment of the Palestinians. This treatment involved special taxes for Israeili Arabs only, forcing the Israeili Arabs to carry special identification, and making it mandatory for Israeli Arabs to get permits to go from place to place. The first intifada began with stone throwing and demonstrations. The intifada then escalated when it was met with Israeli tanks and gunfire. I find that it is quite often the ones illinformed on the issues that committ to blind support of Israel. To those misinformed many, i suggest reading "A History of the Modern Middle East" by William L. Cleveland, published by Westview. This book thoroughly encompasses the entire history of the Middle East. When you get the full story, you understand how much the Palestinians have really been screwed.


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- Josh
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 01:32 AM on February 7, 2004 | IP
J Lundin

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Quote from dsadevil at 6:15 PM on November 6, 2002 :
and for that reason, Israel is a superior nation to the arab states.


There are so many reasons why Isreal has every right to keep all of its land. And no terrorist Palestinian GEEHAD-AMERICA HATER IS NOT GOING TO GET ANY LAND WITH TERRORISM. THE STUPID PALESTINIANS DON'Y WAN'T THERE OWN COUNTRY. THEY DON'T WAN'T TO LIVE IN PEACE. THEY WAN'T TO BLOW ALL THE JEWS IN TO THE SEA. THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE TOUGHT WHEN THEY WERE LITTLE CHIDREN, AND THATS WHAT THEY WILL TEACH THIER CHILDREN.[color=red][/color]


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JLundin
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 4:15 PM on June 27, 2004 | IP
grunt

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The british consul in palestine reported in 1857 that "the country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population." (p. 159) source cited: james finn to the earl of clarendon, september 15, 1857.

[i]n the jewish settlement rishon l'tsion (founded in 1882), by the year 1889 the "forty jewish families" settled there had attracted "more than four hundred arab families," most of them "bedouin and egyptian."  they had come to "surround the moshava" (settlement) in a "now-thriving village" that, before the founding of rishon l'tsion, had been sarafand - "a forsaken ruin."  the report from rishon pointed out that many other arab villages had sprouted in the same fashion. (pp. 252-3)

source cited: a. druyanov, ketavim letoldoth hibbat ziyyon ve-yishshuv erez yisra'el) (odessa, tel aviv, 1919, 1925, 1932), vol. 3, pp. 66-67.


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grunt
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 09:22 AM on April 30, 2005 | IP
TerrytheAwesomeness

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Now, let's not all just jump to one side and say that Jews are the victims and only Arabs are the terrorists in this war.  There have been several terrorist acts committed by the Israelis.  Most recently, the flotillas sanctioned by the Israeli government to block any aid to Palestinians, be there warfare or other.  It was a blanket cover...NO AID TO PALESTINIANS!!!  This was the message Israel wished to convey to the world.  And, remember also the sanctioned raids which led to the torture and deaths of countless Lebanese civilians, all due to the capture (without torture or any harm) of several Israeli soldiers.  Soldiers, not civilians.

If you really dig, you can see the effects of Kahanism.  Dr. Baruch Goldstein went into the Ibrahim Mosque and mowed down praying Palestinians.  The count was 29 dead, and 125 wounded.  The only reason Goldstein stopped attacking was because he ran out of ammo.  Was this 1994 attack justified?  Absolutely not.  However, he suffered the penalty for his actions when the survivors overcame him and beat him to death.  After the attack, protests and riots ensued, killing another 19 Palestinians by the IDF (which I have friends who are a part of).  After this, Yitzhak Rabin, a proponent for a common government between Israel and Palestine, also then Prime Minister of Israel, condemned the actions of Dr. Goldstein.  Due to his stance on a common government, which would ultimately lead to some kind of peace agreement, another Israeli terrorist, and follower of Kahanism, Yigal Amir, assassinated Rabin.

For those unfamiliar with Kahanism, it was the ideology that condoned getting rid of Arabs in Israel to prevent them from outnumbering the Jewish community.  It was started by a far-right-wing extremist by the name of  Rabbi Martin David Kahane, also known as Meir, an American-Israeli who believed that Israelis should flock back to Israel in a pilgrimage to prevent the imminent "second-holocaust," which was bound to take place in the United States.  Meir Kahane believed the Israeli state should plan to allow Arabs to voluntarily leave the West Bank and Gaza, and the state would compensate them for their property.  However, if they refused, remove them by force.

Then there is the "Hilltop Youth," an organization of youth in Israel, all Jewish, who seek, not to kill Arabs, but rather prevent the fruits of Arab labor.  They typically shun people who buy houses built by Arabs, and, in a sense, seek to destroy the Arab economy by sheer overpower in Israel.

Do not think, for a minute, that I am anti-semitic.  I am not.  I have many Jewish friends in Israel, whom I see from time to time when I visit.  I also have Arab friends in Israel whom I visit.  My friendships with those individuals is very strong.  In fact, I have gone so far to learn their languages as a form of endeerment for my friends.  I love Israel, it is a beautiful country.  I have witnessed attacks in Israel.

The point of my argument is not to prove that Israel is the one wielding the sword, necessarily, but rather, to end all this talk that Israel is the sole victim of terror by the Arabs, and all they are trying to do is live peacably on their land, but keep being victimized by the Arabs.  Make no mistake, Israel has committed their fair share of horrible acts, not only against Arabs, but themselves for wanting to co-exist with the Arabs.  The argument that Israel is being terrorized by Arabs because of the land is moot.  It works both ways.  Both Israelis and Arabs, alike, are equally responsible for the horrific acts that should not be condoned.


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Only in the eyes can the true story be told.
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 8:59 PM on July 21, 2011 | IP
    
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