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       argument for Christian Nation?

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hooyah

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Is celebrating Christmas, which is the celebration of Jesus' birthday, a good argument for saying that this is a Christian Nation?

Since the "politically correct" people want to take everything to do with religion out of government, Should we ban Christmas from being a recognized national holiday?


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 12:42 AM on December 11, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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just an interesting point but did you know that Christmas was banned in many of the original 13 colonies bc it was at first only celebrated by catholics and most of the people that came here where protestants trying to escape catholic/anglican persecution. It was introduced to america by the irish (mostly catholic/anglican) when many irish immigrants came to america during the Potato Blight famine in Ireland.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 12:49 AM on December 11, 2002 | IP
mrmazet

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Would schools and businesses still be able to give people time off if it wasn't recognised as a holiday? If no, then I feel it should remain a holiday so that people can get time off. If yes, then I think it should, along with many other holiday, be removed.
 


Posts: 122 | Posted: 4:01 PM on December 11, 2002 | IP
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The founders of the democratic party must be spinning in thier graves, the ACLU just wants to steal Christmas, perhaps replacing it with an optional secular seasonal festive light holiday... Libralism makes me sick...
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:49 AM on December 20, 2002 | IP
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The Democrats seem to like the ACLU... they aren't such a great organization... defending NAMBLA and all.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 7:43 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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I love the ACLU. I just read on the NAMBLA case (I hadn't heard of it previously). Here is the ACLU statement on the case.

"In representing NAMBLA today, our Massachusetts affiliate does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children.

What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not."

That's principled, not repugnant. Defending the free speech of unpopular groups is a dirty, but essential job, and the fact that the ACLU does it is why I so greatly admire and respect them.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:46 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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So defending an organization that puts out literature on how to attract young boys to you and such is okay? That's exactly what NAMBLA does... I believe that was what was posted on the Internet and used in that muder, and it was created by NAMBLA.

The ACLU got the word Christmas removed from a school calendar in Georgia, didn't they? They threatened to sue if it wasn't removed... that is not how that organization should operate. Take it out or we sue and bankrupt this school district. Makes me think of Jesse Jackson... donate to Rainbow Push or I'll call you a racist and we'll get a boycott going and make a huge dent min your profits.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:59 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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repugnant speech is still free speech. They aren't defending the speech itself, they are defending the right to speak w/out govt. interference.

I don't know the Georgia case HOWEVER I do know that the ACLU rarely sues for punitive damages, but rather injuctions. translation: they don't "bankrupt" anyone, b/c they rarely ask for monetary damages. They just ask for the problem to be solved.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:06 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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That school district would have to fight a legal battle over their calendar... that's what would cost the money. Any case would bankrupt them.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 6:13 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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The ACLU will continue doing bad things to this nation. Defending an organization thats sole purpose is to promote engaging in illegal activities and providing literature to help individuals engage in those activities? I don't think speech causing physical harm to others is applicable for first amedment protections.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 6:17 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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the legal standard for speech being protected (in terms of physical harm) is either that the speech is part of direct effort to cause physical harm (I.E. an organization saying "overthrow the govt." while slinging its kashilnikovs over its back) OR the "angry mob" effect, as in saying "KILL WHITEY!!!!" to an enraged mob of angry minorities. Mere abstract advocation of a violent idea, without any plans to followthrough with it personally still is protected speech. You may disagree with the standard, but don't fault the ACLU for protecting what has been decided as legal rights.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:02 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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But NAMBLA's sole purpose is to promote illegal activities... Publishing materials used in murders and to cause physical harm to others? What do you expect when you write something on how to attract young boys to you?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 8:12 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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I support smoking marijuana. I just advocated criminal behavoir. See the problem with the analysis you just gave? NAMBLA (from what I know of them, which is not much) advocates legalizing sexual relations with children, not murdering them. Still sickening, but they have the right to advocate changing laws. The fact that other people break the law using their data isn't their fault. If I post materials on how to build an illegal assualt rifle, and someone uses it to build that gun and cap someone with it, am I responsible? legally, no.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:46 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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You'd probably be served with a law suit and some states would try to prosecute you...

NAMBLA publishes guides on things like how to attract children to you so that you can have a relationship with them...

Legalizing drugs? They did that in a Scandanavian  country, didn't they? Or maybe it was somewhere else in Europe...Anyway, I seem to remember crime rates going up in huge amounts as a result.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:06 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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alcohol and cigarettes are legal here and they are much more dangerous than marijuana


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:55 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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I want to make them illegal too.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:57 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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Falling, I've heard experts say that smoking marijauna is like smoking forty cigarettes...I think it's been agreed that that is by far worse.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:59 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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I wouldn't be served with a law suit, and if I did the NRA would jump to my defense before you could say "Chucky." Legalizing drugs (only marijuana) was done in Holland, and its still ok. Portugal decriminalized it entirely, and other countries decrimmed somewhat, they are doing alright. And other experts say that a cigrette is more dangerous than marijuana. there is a serious division.
But that is another debate. the point is: I advocated an activity that is currently illegal here. Why is that illegal? because I have the right to say "this law should be changed." NAMBLA has that right too. hopefully (and probably) they will be unsucessful. But they still have that right.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:53 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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NAMBLA doesn't just advocate it, they encourage it! They publish materials that instruct people in how to engage in illegal activities!

You know that someone would sue you... they might not win but they' try.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 1:02 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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In America, saying someone will try to sue me isn't saying much. we sue everyone for everything.

NAMBLA encourages illegal activity, so did MLK. you can't be arrested in this country until you do the action.

Watch:
Everyone on this site, please smoke marijuana! its fun! its cheap! its safer than other drugs. I highly encourage you to do this!

Under established case law, I can't be arrested for saying that. I am within my rights. How do you think "High Times" is still in business? Now if I actually provide the marijuana, then they can nail me. But what I just did, in itself, is safe.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:17 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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I was just about to say that... NAMBLA provides materials and guides on how to engage in illegal activity.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 7:21 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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Replacing "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays" is approptiate on proper. Christians are not the only people who have a celebration at this time of year. In fact, the time around the winter solctice has been celebrated long before Christianity ever existed. The backlash against "pc hysteria" is nothing more than the continued will to pursue the force-feeding of Christianity on people who choose to believe in something else.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:44 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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did you not read what i just said? providing materials on HOW TO is ok. actually setting up the workshop isnt.

If you search on how to roll a marijuana joint you'll find dozens of sites. They are constitutionally protected. Its just what the law is. You can disagree with it, but don't fault the ACLU for upholding the law.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:37 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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Hmm... they read something about Jesus today on the school news. I bet the ACLU is going to come sue now...someone said Jesus!


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:27 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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The ACLU is going to have it come to the point that you won't be able to say anything about religion and displays on private property will be reomved. I know they sued several people over displays on private property for some reason or other.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:30 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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I don't think anyone has a right to instruct people on how to hurt children, which is exactly what NAMBLA does.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:33 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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You don't think they have the right to express a view. I don't think that view is right, but they have the right to express it, and we have a duty to display our disgust with it. As was so famously said by Justice Louis Brandeis in the case of Whitney v. California:
"To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."
I believe in more speech, you advocate an enforced silence.

And the ACLU has been at the forefront of religious liberty and expression. You mistake government favoritism of religion and religious freedom. The ACLU has sued on behalf of Christian students discriminated against for wanting to start a club, and on behalf of people discriminated against on jobs b/c of their christian beliefs. It just doesnt support a religious tyranny of the majority.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:11 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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NAMBLA does not just advocate it, they tell people how to hurt children. They have guides on how to get them to. I think there's a difference. You want it legalized? Fine. You have a right to. You publish materials instructing people on how to hurt children? Shouldn't be happening.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 08:13 AM on January 8, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Of course it shouldn't. But it still has to be allowed. Just like what you'd like to do the snipers in the crime forum. Its the constitution that bars the desired action, not the ACLU.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:39 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
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Quote from Broker at 08:13 AM on January 8, 2003 :
NAMBLA does not just advocate it, they tell people how to hurt children. They have guides on how to get them to. I think there's a difference. You want it legalized? Fine. You have a right to. You publish materials instructing people on how to hurt children? Shouldn't be happening.



You seem to know an awful lot about NAMBLA. How is this? Not that I am accusing you of being a member or any kind of kid fucker, but I want to know how accurate it is that you claim that NAMBLA instructs people on how to hurt kids.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 5:00 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
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I love the Factor. O'Reilly did several reports on the ACLU and used the NAMBLA case as an example of at extremist agenda. He read some of the titles they've published on them web, including a guide on how to get children attracted to you.

Free speech is only free if it doesn't hurt others. You can't start calling some nasty names and say you had a right to say it when they sue. Publishing materials instructing people how to hurt children? I'd call that hurting others.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:41 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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I can speak and hurt others...you scumbag

THE O'REILLY FACTOR? YOU ARE GETTING THIS FROM THE O'REILLY FACTOR!!?? Well there goes your credibilty. Pick a source that is not a mere conservative propoganda soapbox next time (No spin zone my ass)


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:59 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
    
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