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Exxoss

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This topic has been changed to a anyone vs anoyone.
Email me or pm me to start debating 1 on 1.  Or just add a reply here saying who and when.

(Edited by Exxoss 11/23/2002 at 8:48 PM).


-------
I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 8:10 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Ouch. Sorry Tsmith, looks you got the shaft. This topic is so slanted towards the aff, you don't stand a chance.
First of all, embryonic stem cells is all about cost-benefit analysis.
Cost: A few blastoids, frozen, and likely to be discarded anyway. Once that initial cost is spent, it doesn't repeat, because stem cells can be cultured from one another.
Benefit: Saving perhaps millions of lives and curing uncountable diseases. According to US News June 12 2000, stem cells could give A new spinal cord for Christopher Reeve, A fresh infusion of brain cells for Grandpa, a brand-new heart for Dad, and a pancreas for Mom.
The debate, on the surface anyway, is about whether we value the life of people, or a few cells frozen in a freezer somewhere. But it goes deeper, because according to Dr. Curt I. Civin Sept 2001 AlphaMed Press: The presence of living matter in a human form would not be sufficient to claim it as "alive"
the proposition that the future potential of a living thing with some human characteristics should not be the sufficient operational and legal U.S. definition of human life. Otherwise, how could a physician pronounce a patient dead, if cells are potentially present somewhere in the patient's body?
Finally, even religious based attacks falter. According to the Talmud, post-tanach jewish religious law (and the basis of all western religious law codes). "If you saved one life, it is as if you have saved an entire world." Hence by saving millions of lives, as stem cell research would do, we are saving millions of worlds. Jewish scholars have interpreted this line as superseding ANY other law in the torah or tanach. Hence, any and all religious laws can be violated if the net effect is to save a life.

Now over to Tsmith for his constructive argument, and rebuttal.
Good Luck!


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:56 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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There is no possible way that I can take a con side on such a one sided issue such as that.  I am for stem cell research and can't think of a valid reason for not having.  Sorry to disappoint you all but there is no arguement here.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 11:32 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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And the winner by default is DSA!  Next debate:  Should people be forced to have gun control on their guns at home by law?
Dsa-Pro, you do want gun control enforced
Tsmith-Con, you do not wan gun control (You like guns, dont ya?)  Please be notified, tsmith, that a good debater is well varied to argue BOTH SIDES of a debate.


-------
I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:18 AM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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So by your arguement Dsa it was okay for Jews in concentration camps to die horrible painful deaths in scientific experimentation if it advanced modern medicine?  What about the women who are selling their aborted fetuses?  Selling their murdered babies...how sick can mankind get? not only do we kill our own offspring but we sell their tiny bodies for money.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:58 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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do you think grandpa would mind that his new brain cells in 12 weeks would have had there own fingerprints, could turn there head, suck their thumb...


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 8:01 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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obviously not, and the two are incomparable. See the quote by Dr. Civin on why these blastoids (to be distinguished from fetuses) are not alive. As opposed to jews in concentration camps, which most definitely are. And I don't believe that women should be allowed to sell fetuses, embroyos etc.. But since new stem cells can be cultured from the ones we already have, they don't need to!


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:15 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Dr. Bernard Nathanson,  a former abortion "doctor" sayed:

"I am deeply troubled by my own increasing certainty that I have in fact presided over 60,000 deaths.  There is no longer serious doubt in my mind that human life exists from the very onset of pregnancy"


the very onset, even if they are only as large as one cell, they are still alive, still human.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 8:21 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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and the Jews analogy was in context to where you were saying that those Jewish guys said it was okay to kill as long as it saved lives in the long run.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 8:22 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Hey Exxoss, I am not on this board to sharpen my debating skills, I am on her to voice my opinion.  I could give a damn what you think about my debating skills.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 8:57 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Hey tsmith, you AGREED to this deathmatch with dsa recently, so dont fuss at me.  Next time dont agree to something youll lose so easily.

And sakata, this forum is for me, tsmith and Dsa only to find the best debater.  Nothing restricter, you can say that, but when their debating, please dont.  

Thanx,
-Exxoss


-------
I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 9:14 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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First of all, you didnt post the rules of you three only before hand and second, it wasnt like it was going anywhere anyway,  someone needed to stick up for whats right.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:39 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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wow this is getting hot. maybe we need a tsmith vs. exxoss vs. sakata forum on what the purpose of this forum is.

anyway, your doctor doesn't explain the question my doctor raises (mine doctor can beat up your doctor...I feel like a 3rd grader). If the mere prescence of living cells is enough to declare something "alive" as your doctor claims, then the vast majority of people have been buried alive, because different parts of the body die at different times. Generally, doctors make a judgement call about whether something has the potential to remain alive. People who are dead accept for, say, their kidney cells don't meet this test. Neither do frozen blastoids, destined for destruction. So the argument shifts from whether these cells are "alive" (which it has been proven that they are not), to whether these cells can be used to keep others alive, which I'm sure Sakata you will agree with me that they should be used.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:33 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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*slams fist down* Bring it on! lol!

Okay, science was never my strong point so correct me if I am wrong.  The stem cell is taken from a fetus, now, while the stem cell may not be alive, the fetus it was taken from is now dead because of it, so therefore you are killing it.  Its like taking someone's kidneys or something saying its okay because its not really alive and it can save someone's life, but in taking it you have killed the person you took it from.  Bottom line is, baby is alive from very moment of conseption, something it removed from baby, baby no longer has potental to grow, correct?  




-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 12:40 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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correction because you are wrong: stemcells are not taken from a fetus. They are taken from a frozen blastoid. Big difference. The proper comparison would be an organ donation from a dead guy. He is dead. His kidney's are alive. So take the live kidney's from the dead man and put them in a live man who will become dead if he doesn't get the kidneys.
It's this distinction that these blastoids aren't "alive" that causes pro-life champions such as Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) to support stem cell research.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 1:28 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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could you define blastoid please?  Is it not a joined sperm and egg?  Where do they get these dead blastiods from? Certainly if they are dead it means they where once alive right? and as for the opinion of the pro-life guy, you should know me enough by now to know that I dont believe stuff just because someone else said so (unless it was God of course).


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:13 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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most people are under the common misconception that after a human egg is fertilized by sperm, it is a fetus from that point on. Actually, the term "fetus" only refers to a specific, late point in that entities development. First it is a Zygote, then a Blastoid, then an Embreyo, then a Fetus. A blastoid has only a few hundred cells.
As for Sen. Hatch's opinion, I cite him only as someone who is very vocal and very consistant in his prolife positions and feels that stem cell research is not inconsistant with that belief.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:45 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Daktaklakpak!  Assertion 9821 torque!  Assertion 1:  You do not intentivly research stem cells.  I have been for 4 years.  Correction 1:  Stem cell reearch is this:

Stem cells can be taken in two ways:  They can be taken from and embryo, frozen or not, or from the umbilical cord of a newborn.  Embryonic stem cells are better because they are less polluted by other cells and can be sterilized easier via the zona drilling pippette used to extract the stem cells.  Umbilical stem cells can be polluted by other cells since they are not stright from the delivery place where they are made, the embryo.  But they do not kill a baby.  Embryonic extraction of cells leads to a 70% chance of the death of   the baby.  It is used for abortion most of the time.  Stem cells are cells that can literally be any kind of cell.  They can be a organ cell, a limb cell, etc.  So that is it.


-------
I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:32 AM on October 21, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I believe a baby is human from the very moment the sperm joins with the egg, so therefore anything that intentionaly causes the death of that person is murder.  Go ahead and call it just frozen blastoids, it is the same as infanticide, it is the same person, just at different stages of life.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:57 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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if the democrats keep pushing like they are then pretty soon women will have until the childs puberty to abort...lol


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 11:57 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I wouldnt be surprised


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:59 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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why democrats? there are pro-choice republicans (Connie Morella R-MD, Arlen Spector R-PA) and pro-life democrats (Tim Johnson D-SD, and many rural house dems)

But I doubt anyone is seriously suggesting abortion at puberty. You are making quite a logical leap there. But once again, define "human." Give me a reason that a joined sperm and egg are what constitutes a human. That seems pretty simplistic to me.

an interesting factoid. killing a blastoid kills circa 100 cells (minus the stem cells, which remain alive). Snapping my fingers kills 10,000 cells. I just killed 10,000 cells. 20,000 30,000 40,000. Oh my God, Im a mass murderer now. Better get the police after me quick. Im a serial killer.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:53 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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it was a joke notice the lol afterwards...geez no humor


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 12:32 AM on October 23, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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hahaha. so funny. My political party wants to kill pre-teens. Hilarious.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:59 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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i thought it was funny. i guess it is pretty lame to laugh at your own jokes. but come on it is an extreme overstatement im sure some one lese saw the humor in it.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 6:58 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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the cells on you fingers will not be able to suck there thumb at 12 weeks, will not have there own finger prints (you get what I mean) the cells on your fingers cant turn their head.  


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 8:12 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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there was some humor. But I was defending the honor and dignity of my collegues in the democratic party. To quote thistownwilleatu "Have at you!"
And Sakata's point is well taken, EXCEPT that these blastoids arent going to be sucking there thumb etc. in 12 weeks either, they are going to thrown out.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:02 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Uhhh....can't we all just take a coffee break?


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:11 AM on October 24, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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dsa, lets resume the mother of all debates between you and I, the Confederate Flag, what do you say?


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 12:41 AM on November 4, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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let dixie fly dag nabit


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 01:58 AM on November 4, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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no not the confederate flag debate! we called that a stale mate and moved on

here's the current NFL LD debate topic
Resolved: In US High Schools, Academic Freedom ought to be valued over Community Standards.
Tsmith, pick a side, aff or neg (aff supporting the rez, neg negating it)


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:50 PM on November 4, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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I choose negating, and forward the opening to you.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 5:45 PM on November 4, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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I was hoping for neg...even though i really believe in aff. Oh well, here we go.
John Stuart Mill once said "If all of man, minus one, were of one opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one man, than he, if he had the power, would be in silencing mankind." This quote can explain to us today the need to act strongly and decisively in favor of getting as many ideas out as possible, especially in an academic context that is theoretically designed to teach as many ideas as possible.
A school is not designed to be a simple relayer of prejudices. It is designed to broaden horizens. By negating this resolution, what we are doing is closing off the avenues of learning to our high school students, thus putting them at a disadvantage when they enter the real world with mutiple ideas from a wide variety of standards. Though perhaps we'd all like for our kids to follow exactly in our footsteps, we have to realize that in a real world, this is not possible, so we might as well prepare them for the wide range of ideas and theories they will undoubtedly encounter.
Im sure tsmith, you will argue that perhaps this academic freedom will bring in bad ideas, negative the growth of our school children. However this argument falls in two areas. One, Mill's "marketplace of ideas" which dictates that all ideas should be allowed to be shared, because the good ones will rise to the top, and the bad will be identified and discarded. By allowing a free flow of ideas, we can show WHY the bad ones are wrong, and why the good ones are right. But furthermore, we can see that their is no justification for limiting free speech unless that speech poses a clear and present danger, one that academic speech rarely if ever possesses. We can look to Justice Brandeis' opinion in Whitney v. California, which states " If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence." The answer to the negative ideas that might be brought upon by affirming is also achieved by affirming, allowing for more speech to rebut, refute, and repudiate the reasoning of the negative ideas.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:10 PM on November 4, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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The problem is, not always to the good ideas rise to the top, how long did it take before people realized that puting a leach on a persons skin did nothing.  It was thought to do something but was far from the truth.  Certain theories need to be investigated heavily before they are thrown into the education system.  Kids remember what they learn in school and to them what they learned will be right from then until eternity.  Research needs to be done just like the fda tests prescription drugs before they are released, sure some ideas might get axed that were right and some that are wrong might get through, but in the long run its for the better.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 01:05 AM on November 5, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Allow me to explain NFL LD debating structural rules ( i do this not b/c i am a prick about structure, but rather b/c it organizes the debate well and allows the debate to be judged fairly, rather than a random free for all).
First, the aff gives its constructive speech, which is where it says why it is right.
then the neg gives its first speech, where it says why it is right AND why the affirmative points are invalid (thats a subtle but imporant difference).
Then the aff gives a speech where it says why the neg points are invalid and defends his own points from the neg attack.
Then the neg reinforces his attack on the aff points and says why the aff defense isnt strong enough, and defends his own points from the aff attack...
at this point the neg would wrap up the round and then the aff would get a speech to wrap up the round, but there is no need for us to stop like that, so we can just keep on going indefinitely. But anyway, I kick it back to you. give me points directly refuting mine (for coinveniance purposes please cite what you are actually rebutting) as well as a constructive argument for your own side.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:37 AM on November 5, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Being that i am the ref, i think that this topic's debate should go:

Pro: opening
Con: opening
Pro: point 1
Con: rebutt 1
Con: p 1
pro: r 1
pro: p 2
con: r 2
con: p2
pro: r 2
pro: p 3
con: r 3
Con: p3
pro: r 3
pro: closing
con: closing

debate ends.  I am now exempt from this topic, so i am the only judge.  Anyone who wishes to debate 1/1, go ahead; i will judge.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 8:46 PM on November 23, 2002 | IP
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i have an idea, lets form another debate.
-i am xenjael
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 06:01 AM on December 12, 2002 | IP
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Quote from Exxoss at 9:14 PM on October 17, 2002 :
Hey tsmith, you AGREED to this deathmatch with dsa recently, so dont fuss at me.  Next time dont agree to something youll lose so easily.

And sakata, this forum is for me, tsmith and Dsa only to find the best debater.  Nothing restricter, you can say that, but when their debating, please dont.  

Thanx,
-Exxoss

i'd like to be on the best debater thing, i was still here before tsmith and exoss.
-i am xenjael


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 06:03 AM on December 12, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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but you were gone for so long


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:35 AM on December 12, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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not to mention u werent particularly good.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:42 PM on December 12, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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That kid still has something against me for reasons that I will never know.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 9:34 PM on December 12, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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how old is he?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:45 PM on December 12, 2002 | IP
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i have nothing against anybody anymore, i am completely nuetral
oh and falling, i am 13 years old. dsadevil, you just dont trust me because i used to be a egomaniac.
- am xenjael
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:32 PM on December 13, 2002 | IP
    
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