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   Creationism vs Evolution Debates
     New Guinea "Lost World" found
       Isolated for 200,000 years

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Apoapsis

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Lost world of fanged frogs and giant rats discovered in Papua New Guinea



A lost world populated by fanged frogs, grunting fish and tiny bear-like creatures has been discovered in a remote volcanic crater on the Pacific island of Papua New Guinea.


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Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 5:29 PM on September 8, 2009 | IP
orion

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Cool!!!  And an excellent example of evolution taking place in a remote environment.  Populations taking advantage of new ecological niches over a time frame of 200,000 years.
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 5:54 PM on September 8, 2009 | IP
Lester10

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Different places, different populations - all created and then separated. How does that show evolution rather than creation?


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Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 07:37 AM on September 12, 2009 | IP
orion

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Quote from Lester10 at 07:37 AM on September 12, 2009 :
Different places, different populations - all created and then separated. How does that show evolution rather than creation?



It's exactly an example of what ToE predicts would happen.  Some populations move to a new environmental niche, in this case the volcanic caldera, become isolated and seperate populations, and over time evolve into seperate species from their distant ancestors.

We see examples of this happening all over the world.  Darwin noticed this on his 5-year trip on the Beagle.  It was one of the strong pieces of evidence he presented supporting evolution.

If you look at oceanic islands, as opposed to continental islands, you will see an unbalanced poplulation of flora and fauna.  They typically lack entire categories of animals that you find on continental islands (islands once part of continents, but then seperated at some point through geological/climatic actions - Great Britain is a good example of a continental island).  Oceanic islands greater than a few hundred miles away from continents repeatedly lack populations of amphibians, reptiles, and land mammals.  Species that are on oceanic islands are basically limited to plants whose seeds can float and travel great distances, thus you will see a lack of trees other than palms or coconut trees (whose pods can float on water).  Animal life on these islands are typically restricted to birds and insects.  In other words, you find only species that can somehow get across hundreds of miles (sometimes thousands, in the case of Hawaii) of ocean.  And the spceies we find on these islands typically are most closely related to the nearest continental mainland.  But they have evolved into different species over time on these islands - where they live in a different ecological environment from their ancestors on the continents.

The New Guinea volcanic caldera shows a similar example of isolated populations evolving in a new environmental niche.

Evolution in action!  And exactly as ToE predicts.
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 1:49 PM on September 12, 2009 | IP
Lester10

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And the spceies we find on these islands typically are most closely related to the nearest continental mainland.


And are recognizably closely related to mainland species.

But they have evolved into different species over time on these islands - where they live in a different ecological environment from their ancestors on the continents.


Creation and evolution both allow for natural selection and genetic variation. Only we say that they remain the same genetic type of creature (recognizably so). Put it this way, if it's a mouse, it stays a mouse. If it's a dog, it stays a dog.

Evolution in action!  And exactly as ToE predicts.


This is not what we are in disagreement about. So we could call it evolution in action as long as we are discussing micro-variation or small change which we all agree upon in any case.

Now if the mouse had turned into a recognizably different kind of animal, like dinosaurs turning into birds or land mammals turning into sea mammals, that would be your kind of evolution in action - the kind that evolutionists believe in.


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Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 01:44 AM on September 13, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from Lester10 at 01:44 AM on September 13, 2009 :
Now if the mouse had turned into a recognizably different kind of animal, like dinosaurs turning into birds or land mammals turning into sea mammals, that would be your kind of evolution in action - the kind that evolutionists believe in.


They've only had 200,000 years, give them another 600,000.  I can wait.



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 10:44 PM on September 18, 2009 | IP
Lester10

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They've only had 200,000 years, give them another 600,000.  I can wait.


So what you are in effect saying is that macroevolution has never been observed or demonstrated in your lifetime but that you have faith in the reality of the concept and are prepared to wait another 600 000 hypothetical years to find out that it is not possible and that your belief was based only on philosophy after all.

That's great!  



-------
Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 12:07 PM on September 19, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from Lester10 at 12:07 PM on September 19, 2009 :
They've only had 200,000 years, give them another 600,000.  I can wait.


So what you are in effect saying is that macroevolution has never been observed or demonstrated in your lifetime but that you have faith in the reality of the concept and are prepared to wait another 600 000 hypothetical years to find out that it is not possible and that your belief was based only on philosophy after all.

That's great!  


Am I satisfied that the vast collection of scientific data results in the conclusion of a multi-billion year earth and  demonstrable evolution?  Yes, but no philosophy required.  

Does science require methodological naturalism?  Yes, but that is a technique.  Does it require the philosophy of  ontological naturalism?  Not at all, as evidenced by the large number of people of all faiths involved in scientific research of all kinds.  

It's too bad your philosophical presuppositions forbid you to see facts.



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 7:42 PM on September 21, 2009 | IP
    
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