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derwood

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Make that "book"....


Lester mentioned creationist John Sanford's book as a 'good read' or some such drooling sycophantery.

The book is discussed here between a biologist and a YEC former pilot who knows everything.

The discussion is quite instructive for 2 reasons - 1. the biologist dismantles all of Sanford's main points and shows, via quotes, that his arguments are the usual 'I will draw YEC-based conclusions first then twist reality to fit' nonsense and 2. it shows yet another example of how arrogant creationists can be while simultaneously being shown to be absolutely clueless...

I have nothing to say about Sanford's book, I don't have it and have no intention of putting a cent in the pocket of the latest YEC scammer to come along.

(Edited by derwood 11/12/2009 at 2:58 PM).


-------
Lester:

"I said I have a doctorate and a university background in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, pathology etc. ..."
 


Posts: 1646 | Posted: 2:56 PM on November 12, 2009 | IP
orion

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I'll read the thread tonight.  

former YEC pilot, you say?  Seems to me I read some comments a few months ago by such a person somewhere else.  Maybe it was an email that PZ Myers posted on his blog - Pharyngula.  The guy's comments were quite arrogant and he didn't give any reasonable arguments to back his case that evolution was false.  Just made empty assertions.


 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 4:09 PM on November 12, 2009 | IP
Lester10

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Derwood

Lester mentioned creationist John Sanford's book as a 'good read' or some such drooling sycophantery.


Thanks Derwood, you sure have a wonderful way of expressing yourself, you sound like you have a miserable life.

1. the biologist dismantles all of Sanford's main points and shows, via quotes, that his arguments are the usual 'I will draw YEC-based conclusions first then twist reality to fit' nonsense


Well I have read some of it - seen nothing of the dismantling yet, but maybe that will still come.

2. it shows yet another example of how arrogant creationists can be while simultaneously being shown to be absolutely clueless...


This sounds like another one of your presuppositions frankly - not actually a conclusion. I look forward to seeing this too.

I have nothing to say about Sanford's book, I don't have it and have no intention of putting a cent in the pocket of the latest YEC scammer to come along.


Well the loss is all yours. He's a geneticist (responsible for the 'gene gun' concept) who is not saying anything other geneticists don't know to be true. The fact that it does not support evolution is the problem you have. Why not try to refute what he is saying. It won't be easy. I have it. I've read it. I know.






-------
Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 04:58 AM on November 13, 2009 | IP
derwood

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Quote from Lester10 at 04:58 AM on November 13, 2009 :
Derwood

Lester mentioned creationist John Sanford's book as a 'good read' or some such drooling sycophantery.


Thanks Derwood, you sure have a wonderful way of expressing yourself, you sound like you have a miserable life.


I do like colorful prose, but - and I am sure you are 'praying' for the contrary - but my life is just fine.  



1. the biologist dismantles all of Sanford's main points and shows, via quotes, that his arguments are the usual 'I will draw YEC-based conclusions first then twist reality to fit' nonsense


Well I have read some of it - seen nothing of the dismantling yet, but maybe that will still come.


I wouldn't expect you to have either the ability nor the humility to acknowledge that your one of you YEC heroes is less than perfect.  I am sure that you will come away from any critical discussion of any one of your YEC heroes' books/websites with the same conclusion, no matter what, just as you still seem to think your 30-year studying medical doctor author is beyond reproach despite exhibint a very basic ignorance (or is it misrepresentation?) of evolution...


2. it shows yet another example of how arrogant creationists can be while simultaneously being shown to be absolutely clueless...


This sounds like another one of your presuppositions frankly - not actually a conclusion. I look forward to seeing this too.


No, it is a conclusion.

While I am vigilant for certain red flag claims - like 'I have studied evolution for decades and...' or 'I used to be an evolutionist until...' - such claims have, in my experience, always turned out to be either false or totally irrelevant.
Studying evolution for 30 years did not deter your medical doctor hero from thinking that ancestors must all be extinct, claiming to have been an evolutionist until studying at Mt.St.Helens did not prevent the truth that Steve Austin had been a YEC for neardly a decade prior to Mt.St. Helens from coming out, a YEC claiming a doctorate in a scinece-related subject did not prevent this 'doctor' from not knowing what phenotype means...

No, Lester, it is a conclusion.


I have nothing to say about Sanford's book, I don't have it and have no intention of putting a cent in the pocket of the latest YEC scammer to come along.


Well the loss is all yours. He's a geneticist (responsible for the 'gene gun' concept) who is not saying anything other geneticists don't know to be true.

See, now that is just not the case.  I've read some criticisms of Sanford's book BY actual geneticists (and the gene gun process shows that Sanford is more of an applied scientist than a 'geneticist' as such, for his actual specialty was raspberry horticulture techniques or some such stuff).

His book is riddled with misrepresentations, wild extrapolations, and the obvious YEC tendency to start with your conclusion.



The fact that it does not support evolution is the problem you have. Why not try to refute what he is saying. It won't be easy. I have it. I've read it. I know.





How is it that you know what Sanford wrote is true?  How do you know what he wrote is accurate?  How do you know that what he wrote is 'known by geneticists'?

I had to teach you what phenotype means just a week or so ago for crying out loud, why should anyone think that you have the ability to critically digest what Sanford wrote in an apologetics book targetted at a lay audience, whom he doubtless planned to impress with his sciencey-sounding jargon and whom he probably knew would not dream of questioning anything a YEC hero wrote - I mean golly, he made the gene gun, after all!


Have you looked at his GA?  Maybe you can explain why it was set up NOT to be able to test YEC population genetics claims?








-------
Lester:

"I said I have a doctorate and a university background in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, pathology etc. ..."
 


Posts: 1646 | Posted: 09:11 AM on November 13, 2009 | IP
    
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