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   Creationism vs Evolution Debates
     Who made God?
       The creator of the creator

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VividPicnic

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Let me clear this up a bit. I'm not talking about planetary formation on its own. I'm talking about a solar system that can sustain life on planet earth.

"Natural forces dictate." So you're saying nothing drives these natural forces and nothing instigated them. They just were? Somehow all these intricately complicated processes just sprang out of nothing?

Another point: LAW - Rules established by a governing authority to institute and maintain orderly coexistence.

Someone please explain what triggered all these natural occurences and laws. Or am I supposed to just accept that they arose from nothing? That the basic equation we are establishing here is: "Nothing suddenly becomes a spectacular array of somethings and produced everything."
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 12:06 AM on March 21, 2009 | IP
VividPicnic

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Also:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1997/12/971218090305.htm
Earth is influenced by the other planets in the solar system.
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 12:10 AM on March 21, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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I'm not sure I've got a problem with a resonance with Jupiter on a 20 million year time frame.  Do you accept this time scale?


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 12:16 AM on March 21, 2009 | IP
VividPicnic

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Alignment was a bad word. I'm saying I need an explanation of how gravity configured the earth, sun and moon so perfectly as to create an environment for life. Astrology is ridiculous.
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 12:21 AM on March 21, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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They condensed from the protostellar nebula.  We can watch it occurring other places now.




Protoplanetary disks around T-Tauri stars


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 01:18 AM on March 21, 2009 | IP
wisp

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VividPicnic
I admit I don't know a great deal of scientific facts. But logic alone can tell us alot of things.
Not true. There's no possible silogism with no previous knowledge or premise.
For instance if we don't pick God, what do we pick? Nothing?
What god are you talking about, exactly?
And please elaborate on something that doesn't need a cause?
mmmnot in this forum.
Fine. The universe is 13.7 billion years old.
Then you're not a Young Earth creationist, right?
I was actually trying to dispute something written in another forum that said the universe could have had no beginning.
It certainly could. It could reincarnate, for all we know. And it still would make no difference to the subject of this forum.
If the universe is that old, give me another cause besides God that triggered it?
Besides Yahweh? Well, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, of course. But i prefer the taoistic view.
Position of the earth has nothing to do with blind chance? So you're saying theres a guiding force behind the positioning? This seems to indicate intelligence right?
'Chance' is the name we give to those mechanisms that we ignore.

The other planets in the solar system have a direct effect on the earth's climate. And once again, if this positioning isn't blind chance, guidance is required?
Man, use your logical mind for a moment. If we find life in other planets, that life will be tuned to their environment (obviously). And, if they can think, they'd think "Woah, the climate is perfect for life! No poisonous oxygen, a healthy temperature of 120ºC, the perfect 100 lbf of atmospheric pressure... And you say there was no guidance?".

Of course, only in those planets where life did arise they'd be able to ask themselves such questions.

Astrophysicists are by and large anti-creation right? If this is the case, what else can you suggest manipulates the forces in the universe besides chance? If there is an ordered guidance this means there is a guider?
You have a 'God of the gaps' mentality. If we ignore something, then Goddidit.

We used to ignore how snowflakes formed. Would you say that God makes each snowflake?

Fortunately some humans put that mentality aside, and that is how things progressed.
You'll have to explain exactly how gravity manouvered all the planets and the sun and the moon into alignment with each other.
Haha, what?

Anyway, did you check the title of the forum?
And scientific knowledge does not equate to a logical mind.
So?

As an addendum, there must been something in the beginning that sparked the big bang. Raw energy? Random matter? I don't know. Please enlighten me on the big bang theory.
Tempting, but no. Not in this forum.

Cliche as it may sound, I will ask, where did this something originate from and if laws governed the big bang, where did these laws come from?
If we all said "Goddidit", would you go away, or would you start talking about Young Earth Creationism VS Evolution?

Let me clear this up a bit. I'm not talking about planetary formation on its own. I'm talking about a solar system that can sustain life on planet earth.
Do you think that if the rest of the planets in our system vanished into thin vacuum, that something terrible would happen to us?
Someone please explain what triggered all these natural occurences and laws. Or am I supposed to just accept that they arose from nothing?
You're supposed to talk about YEC and TOE.


(Edited by wisp 3/21/2009 at 2:32 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 01:25 AM on March 21, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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I admit I don't know a great deal of scientific facts.

Until you learn the appropriate science, how can you intelligently discuss it?

But logic alone can tell us alot of things.

Not really....

For instance if we don't pick God, what do we pick? Nothing?

Why not?  We see things happening without a cause, there is a precedent.  According to what science shows us, the universe COULD have started itself from 'nothing'.  We don't have to arbitrarily pick god, we have evidence, slim evidence but evidence nonetheless, that the universe could have started itself from nothing.

And please elaborate on something that doesn't need a cause?

Radioactive decay is uncaused, quantum fluctuations are uncaused, this means matter and energy can just pop into existence uncaused.  This has been indirectly observed. So we do see things that don't need a cause.  Just because you don't understand them doesn't make them any less real.

If the universe is that old, give me another cause besides God that triggered it?

Have you even bothered to read any of the incredibly complex theories on the origin of the universe?  Do you know anything of LQC?  You are claiming only God could have created the universe but you don't even know any of the alternatives.  Once again, you don't understand it so therefore Goddidit.

Position of the earth has nothing to do with blind chance?

Correct.  Blind chance has nothing to do with the position of the earth.  If you claim it does, explain why...

So you're saying theres a guiding force behind the positioning? This seems to indicate intelligence right?

No it doesn't.  Unless you are claiming gravity is intelligent...  Are you claiming everything that ISN'T blind chance is intelligent????

The other planets in the solar system have a direct effect on the earth's climate. And once again, if this positioning isn't blind chance, guidance is required?

No it isn't.  You don't seem to understand that the earth was here first, it existed before life did.  Life evolved to live on a preexisting earth.  If the conditions of the earth were different, if there were more or less planets, if the earth's orbit were different, life would have evolved differently, simple as that.  No intelligent design required, no blind chance required.

Astrophysicists are by and large anti-creation right?

I don't know, plenty of christian astrophysicists who accept the Big Bang.

If this is the case, what else can you suggest manipulates the forces in the universe besides chance?

Besides chance?  How about gravity, elctromagnetism, the weak force and the strong force?  You still haven't been able to show us how blind chance manipulates the universe.  I'm betting you  can't do it.

You'll have to explain exactly how gravity manouvered all the planets and the sun and the moon into alignment with each
other.


You don't know how gravity works?!?!?  Go read a book on it!  How exactly are the planets in alignment with each other?  I say they're not.

And scientific knowledge does not equate to a logical mind.

And a logical mind certainly doesn't equate to scientific facts.

"Natural forces dictate." So you're saying nothing drives these natural forces and nothing instigated them. They just were? Somehow all these intricately complicated processes just sprang out of nothing?

Do you know how intricate gravity, electromagnetism, weak force and strong force are?  As has been shown, springing out of nothing is no big deal, or maybe they always existed....How is this more unbelievable than a magical god springing out of nothing or always existing?

Another point: LAW - Rules established by a governing authority to institute and maintain orderly coexistence.

What doesn this mean?  Are you trying to say since we say laws are established by a governing authority, there must be a god????
How about this, all rules established to date have been established by a governing authority of human beings.  Taht means god is nothing more than a human being, according to your logic.

Someone please explain what triggered all these natural occurences and laws. Or am I supposed to just accept that they arose from nothing? That the basic equation we are establishing here is: "Nothing suddenly becomes a spectacular array of somethings and produced everything."

You haven't been able to disprove this claim.  And I think it's infinitely more believable than a magic, all powerful entity that has always existed, which no one has been able to show us any evidence of.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 01:37 AM on March 21, 2009 | IP
    
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