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The_Wizard

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I have always had a pension for science from an early age. I've always liked science shows. I owned my first microscope and chemistry set at 7 years of age and my first telescope at 9. I was never pushed, I was born with the question "Why?" rooted deep within me. I was also born christian. I attended bible schools, church and did private study of the Bible and Christianity for many years. But when I started to apply my scientific mind to Christianity and the Bible I found flaw after flaw and came to the conclusions that if the Bible is the true and actual word of God... either... 1. God is an idiot  2. The people he got to write the books are idiots. 3. The people who wrote the Bible never spoke to God directly. 4. Man gathered the books and put the Bible together. And since man is flawed the Bible from the start must be flawed.

So how does this play into creationism? Religion takes faith. Faith is question-less. Indiscretions and problematic ideas within faith are to be glossed over or ignored. Even Revelations in the Bible is the least read book among Christians for that it portrays God and Christ as angry, vengeful and war-like up even through Judgement Day when you are judged and are either saved or condemned. Even those who think themselves "Born Again" may end up doomed for all time.

This shows the two faced view when applied the evolution. Because evolution does have gaps that can not be explained at this time by science, it is considered completely and totally wrong. Yet, medicine is incomplete and lacks many answers, but if a Christian is injured or sick they run to a doctor or hospital not a church. Why is this?

Evolution and medicine are both rooted in biology, genetics, physiology, anthropology and chemistry, and use many of the same scientific techniques to progress and improve. Creationist use "Intelligent Design" as an alternative science to evolution science. So why do they not use an idea like "Intelligent Designed Medicine". I think it's due to the idea that they have "no faith" in an idea like that. If you had a family member that died on the operating table and the doctor claimed the death was due to the fact that you didn't pray hard enough... would you find that explanation expectable? What if the doctor said we will open you up but God will remove the disease and close you up. How well would that fly? Not well I would imagine.

You see it takes 8-10 years to become a doctor and at least an additional 4-6 to specialize. But to be a creationist you can literally go "POOF!", and you are a creationist. POOF... that sounds familiar. Intelligent Design proponent love to through that one around. "There's a pool of ooze that gets struck by lightening and then POOF, life!". There is no such thing as POOF, POW, BAM or any other sound effect that demonstrations an instantaneous reaction.

Time = Quality

As I write this I am smoking a brisket. It will take approximately 8-11 hours. With time it will be fork tender, have a 1 inch smoke-ring and be as juicy as a tomato. Stews, soups, roasts take time. They also involve chemistry. Homemade/From scratch is like evolution. So what is like POOF. Canned foods, nuked stuff, fast food. Like creation it sounds good at the time but when you stop to think about it... a lot more questions arise. Preservatives, preprocessed food stuffs, artificial colors and flavors. So when evolutionist talks they are talking time... long periods of time. Hundreds of millions to billions.

Evolution is action and reaction. It starts with physics and slowly move to chemistry. Billions of ton of gas, mostly hydrogen, form a slowly rotating huge ball due to gravity. The center start to create great pressures and create heavier atoms like helium. Gravity increases and start to pull the gasses closer in and an increase in speed starts. The increased speed causes centripetal forces to start flattening the ball of gas into a disk. Gravity continues to increase in the center and the disk shrinks further. The Sun is now taking shape. Areas within the disk start to cool. As they do, eddy currents are created which pull matter in to start the formation of the planets. These eddy currents are not unlike the way tornados form. A cool mass of air meets a warm mass of air. The difference in speed is due to temperature and pressure. As they pass, a rotation in the wind is created and the faster it rotates the stronger the tornado pulls stuff into it. The same goes for planet formation. Hundreds or even thousands of eddy currents are created. Many collide and as they do, their mass, gravity and rotation speed increase. Just looking at our planets, one can easily tell which ones had the most mass, gravity and speed.

End Part one

(Edited by The_Wizard 11/18/2007 at 01:07 AM).


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Never Talkin', Just Keeps Walkin'
Spreadin' His Magic...

The Wizard
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 12:55 AM on November 18, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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And where does the faith come from?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:01 AM on November 19, 2007 | IP
The_Wizard

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Religious faith is a product of unsubstantiated hope, dogma and fear. Children have hope in Santa because you tell them if they are good, they get gifts and if they are not they get squat. Unsubstantiated Hope, Dogma and Fear. But the question you should ask yourself is, "Is my faith in God so strong and my belief in his word so unwavering that I would back an idea like 'Intelligent Designed Medicine' as strongly as Creation itself.".

You see, with ID you have nothing to lose or prove. You can froth at the mouth spewing the "word of God" and never have to back up your claim. With something like IDM you have to back up you faith with your mind, body and soul, as well as giving up all regular medicine and medical technology.


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Never Talkin', Just Keeps Walkin'
Spreadin' His Magic...

The Wizard
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 08:46 AM on November 19, 2007 | IP
Anarchy 117

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ok can you give us an explanation why  the bible is wrong ??  and why Evolution is right ??

tell me in sceintific terms please


 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 11:15 AM on November 22, 2007 | IP
The_Wizard

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First, truth is undeniable. It's self evident and unquestionable. The problem with the Bible is it is none of these things. Breathing, the moon is round, rocks are hard... etc., these things go without question and EVERYONE knows these as fact and accepted around the world. The Bible is not accepted worldwide, it is questioned and interpreted differently even among Christians. It is altered to match the view of the denomination. This is the biggest problem. The Bible is vague enough to be bent and used to prove as evidence it is right and undeniable.

...give us an explanation why the bible is wrong?

As far as Creation, it starts wrong in Genesis. Chapter 1 and 2 are repeats. In Chapter 1, all creatures are created with their counterparts. But in Chapter 2, all creatures are created with their counterparts except man. So in one version, woman is equal to man and in the other woman is second to man. So which is right? Why the two versions? If the Bible is the "Word of God" and dictated to the mind of the writer, it should have been exact. Like I said earlier, "If the Bible is the true and actual word of God... either... 1. God is an idiot  2. The people he got to write the books are idiots. 3. The people who wrote the Bible never spoke to God directly. 4. Man gathered the books and put the Bible together. And since man is flawed the Bible from the start must be flawed.".

Now, science is undeniable. It's self evident and unquestionable. No... it is not. That is how science makes discoveries. But more fact are found and can be proven through the scientific process than through the Bible. Medicine & technology use the facts of discovery to make these functional. It was the scientific process that found poppies can make morphine, opium and heroin. It was this same science that later ruled out opium and heroin as medicine. The laws of electricity allows you to use your computer for this debate, with minimal risk of fire or electrocution. Again, the same sciences are used in proving evolution. We know that early man are not deformed apes through medical examination. We've done human medical exams and ape medical exams, and much of the physiology is the same. We apply this to early man and compare what we know in human and ape and find that they are similar and yet different from both. We apply this to early man and other early men and compare what we know in human and ape and find that they are similar and yet different. We study the tool and home and rituals and they differ little from what we know of ourselves. If you lived a primitive existence (No modern tech) the evolution of the tools you create would resemble those of early man.


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Never Talkin', Just Keeps Walkin'
Spreadin' His Magic...

The Wizard
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 5:05 PM on November 22, 2007 | IP
SilverStar

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Some mathematicians took a selection of Biblical prophesies and found that the likelihood of the 20 happening was 1 to 2,000,000,000,000,000. They were all one that had come to pass, and had been prophesized more than 50 years earlier and most were over 100 years before they came to pass.


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Darkside Enterprises were the impossible meets possible.

Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 7:26 PM on November 22, 2007 | IP
The_Wizard

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????


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Never Talkin', Just Keeps Walkin'
Spreadin' His Magic...

The Wizard
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 10:58 PM on November 22, 2007 | IP
Demon38

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ok can you give us an explanation why  the bible is wrong ??  and why Evolution is
right ??


The Bible is a book of myths, there never was a world wide flood, Adam and Eve weren't real.
The Bible isn't a book of science or history.

Evolution is real because it's observed.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 01:05 AM on November 23, 2007 | IP
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ahhh but you did not give proof that the bible is wrong and you said some wheres els that

men have not been around long enough to observe Evo ??
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 3:38 PM on November 23, 2007 | IP
Demon38

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ahhh but you did not give proof that the bible is wrong

Yes I did, there could not possibly have been a world wide flood, it's impossible.  That is your proof that the bible is wrong.

and you said some wheres els that

men have not been around long enough to observe Evo ??


I never said that!  On the contrary, evolution has been observed by man.  We have seen new species arise both in the wild and in the lab.  So we have actually seen macroevolution take place.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 8:23 PM on November 23, 2007 | IP
The_Wizard

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ahhh but you did not give proof that the bible is wrong.

Genesis. Chapter 1 and 2 are repeats. In Chapter 1, all creatures are created with their counterparts. But in Chapter 2, all creatures are created with their counterparts except man. So in one version, woman is equal to man and in the other woman is second to man. So which is right? Why the two versions? You can't create woman with man and after man for the first time twice. If the Genesis story is flawed than the Bible is flawed and not an accurate depiction of the creation of man.

(Edited by The_Wizard 11/24/2007 at 3:55 PM).


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Never Talkin', Just Keeps Walkin'
Spreadin' His Magic...

The Wizard
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 3:54 PM on November 24, 2007 | IP
jmaster19

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The simple fact is you can't even compare evolution to creationism they don't counter act each other evolution never ever claims to be the theory of how the universe was formed and how life got here your in a debate with abiogenesis not evolution. So there not even a debate to be made about it cause its not even the same subject you creationist are just mad because evolution discredits the bible. But other then that evolution does not say or explain how that first simple organism got here and this is why the vatican and Pope John Paul accept evolution cause evolution and religion can still co-exist with out problem. And the bible is no more factual then the star wars trilogy. The bible is a book of stories with moral meaning rather then 100% true stories.

(Edited by jmaster19 11/24/2007 at 8:12 PM).
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 8:09 PM on November 24, 2007 | IP
Kidarias01

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Wait, Mr Wizard Sir, You DON'T have faith? You believe it possible for this to happen over billions of years yet that is not faith? Do you Believe the world is round? Have you ever gone around it? Do you believe you have a brain? Have you ever seen it? Have you ever heard your brain? Have you ever felt your brain? Have you ever smelled your brain? Have you ever tasted your brain? You have faith. It is not unreasonable to have faith.
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 2:36 PM on December 16, 2007 | IP
The_Wizard

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First, the proof of evolution is there. Bones, fossils and volumes of text written from studies all over the world. It requires no faith. The earth is round... it's been proven, we have pictures. It requires no faith. I have a brain because I use it. I apply logic and reason to the world, that's why I would have never asked a ludicrous question like yours. Medicine states the a brain is required for the body to function. It requires no faith.

But don't confuse faith with belief. Faith is interchangeable with hope. I can have faith and not believe in your God.

I can already tell you're going to be one of those people who brings fruitless arguments and add nothing new to the debate. Your thinking is a "Dime a Dozen".

(Edited by The_Wizard 12/16/2007 at 7:03 PM).


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Never Talkin', Just Keeps Walkin'
Spreadin' His Magic...

The Wizard
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 6:59 PM on December 16, 2007 | IP
Demon38

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You believe it possible for this to happen over billions of years yet that is not faith?

No faith involved at all, just going where the evidence leads.

Do you Believe the world is round?

Nope, I accept the world is roughly round based on the evidence.  

Do you believe you have a brain?

Nope, I accept that I have a brain based on the evidence.

Have you ever seen it?

My brain?!  Unfortunately, I have...

You have faith.

Nope, I don't...

It is not unreasonable to have faith.

It is when that faith flies in the face of overwhelming evidence.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 02:08 AM on December 21, 2007 | IP
TheCman66

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The Bible is a book of myths, there never was a world wide flood

There never was one. In the days of Niah, man had not lived long enough to inhabit the entire world. it was most likely flooding of the world that had so far been inhabited.


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"I can't Fail English! Thats Un-possible!"

Ralph, The Simpson's.
 


Posts: 44 | Posted: 6:50 PM on February 7, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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OK, so you admit that the bible is a book of myths and there never could have been a world wide flood.  
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 9:48 PM on February 10, 2008 | IP
TheCman66

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I said that it most likely flooded where man had settled. I did NOT say that the bible is a 'Book of myths'.


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"I can't Fail English! Thats Un-possible!"

Ralph, The Simpson's.
 


Posts: 44 | Posted: 6:09 PM on February 13, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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I said that it most likely flooded where man had settled. I did NOT say that the bible is a 'Book of myths'.

OK, fine.  But if the Bible claims the entire world was flooded and in reality only some settlements of men were  flooded, doesn't that prove that the Bible is not infallible?
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 10:31 PM on February 13, 2008 | IP
    
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