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orion

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Well, Then why is it when they hallucinate they only hallucinate the Christian heaven or hell. It's always the christian afterlife. Never the Buddhist afterlife, or the Hindu afterlife, or the Islam afterlife, always the Christian afterlife. Coincidence? I think not.



JSF16 - how do you know that?  Do you have some statistics to back those words up?  
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 6:57 PM on September 12, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Every NDE recorded, the person never saw Valhalla, or the Muslim heaven or hell, or just blacked out, like the Atheists say. They have always seen heaven, or hell.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 11:39 PM on September 13, 2008 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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Quote from JSF16 at 11:39 PM on September 13, 2008 :
Every NDE recorded, the person never saw Valhalla, or the Muslim heaven or hell, or just blacked out, like the Atheists say. They have always seen heaven, or hell.



Riiight, cause that "light at the end of the tunnel" is so Christianity-specific.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 1:08 PM on September 14, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Every NDE recorded, the person never saw Valhalla, or the Muslim heaven or hell, or just blacked out, like the Atheists say. They have always seen heaven, or hell.

Sorry, I don't buy your this claim.  Got any evidence to back it up? Or are you just going by what you've heard...
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 5:50 PM on September 14, 2008 | IP
Galileo

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Quote from JSF16 at 6:18 PM on September 12, 2008 :
THe deal is, Evil is just the absence of god. When god is not here, evil fills it up. However, in heaven, since god is there, the evil is washed away. Hence, there is no evil or hate or pain etc in heaven.


There is no god in my life, and I'm not evil. I even have a badge that says so



-------
Hallowed are the Invisible Pink Unicorns
 


Posts: 160 | Posted: 04:51 AM on September 15, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Have you ever sinned? If so, in God's eyes, you're evil.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 6:17 PM on October 1, 2008 | IP
wisp

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This thread is soooo irrelevant to the issue of creationism vs evolution!

Creationists hold lots of beliefs. The purpose of this section is to focus on those about creation.

JSF16:
First, perhaps he doesn't share your faith in the Bible. I certainly don't, so the verb "to sin" has nothing to do with me or anyone who doesn't think by biblical standards.

Second, it IS your faith (apparently), JSF16. So if you've contradicted the laws of your god (and let me say that it wouldn't be possible for anyone not to), then it's you who has sinned. And, by your own standards, you're evil. (I say "your own standards", because "God's eyes" is quite ridiculous).

Third, it's not "Melhouse". It's "Milhouse".

And forth, Milhouse didn't say that anyway. It was Bart.
So check your signature.

Quote from JSF16 at 8:39 PM on September 13, 2008 :
Every NDE recorded, the person never saw Valhalla, or the Muslim heaven or hell, or just blacked out, like the Atheists say. They have always seen heaven, or hell.
When Russel Crowe was about to die in Gladiator he say no heaven or hell!!

By what what JSF16 posted, it's perfectly reasonable for people to kill babies and toddlers.

If i really held those ridiculous beliefs i'd murder my son without thinking. His place in Heaven would be a lock!

If i care about his eternal soul more than mine, then the "repenting" clause doesn't even have to be true for me to do it.

I could only kill toddlers and Christians, that will go to heaven instead of enduring the world's hardships.

And carry a gun just in case a bad person suddenly accepted God in his heart...

-Accept Jesus in your heart!
-Nah, thanks.
-But he resurrected!
-Hum, that's cool. Ok, i accept him.
-BANG!

If i go to hell, well, it's just ONE soul, and i could save many...


(Edited by wisp 10/1/2008 at 9:25 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 7:37 PM on October 1, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Have you ever sinned? If so, in God's eyes, you're evil.

Then does that make God evil since he's sinned...
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 8:57 PM on October 1, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Where has he sinned?


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 6:25 PM on October 2, 2008 | IP
orion

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God has killed plenty of people in the stories in the Bible - violating his own Commandment of 'Thou shall not kill'.  The Flood, for instance.  God killed all those people and all those animals, and all those plants, etc - in that story.  

Wouldn't that make God a sinner?
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 10:12 PM on October 3, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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God did Justice. Sin is killing like, Osama Ben Ladin bombing America, murder, but God killed in the flood because there was no other option. He had to, in a sense, restart with the good. Everyone sins, yes, I have sinned, but when forgiven by Christ, the sins are washed away. He then only see's you as who he made you to be, you minus the sins of the world.

For Russell Crowe, that was movie. Not real life. Yes, if you killed your son, he would go to Heaven. But God says NOT to kill your kids and other Christians. They could Evangelize and bring many more to God.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 10:24 AM on October 4, 2008 | IP
orion

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God killed infants and children in that Flood.  You can't tell me he was justified in doing that.  

 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 12:07 PM on October 4, 2008 | IP
wisp

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Anger is another sin. A capital one.

But if by "sin" you mean "disobeying God", then he couldn't sin.

He doesn't make a good role model, but technically he couldn't sin.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:30 PM on October 4, 2008 | IP
orion

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Hmmm, that's a convenient loophole.
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 4:07 PM on October 4, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Anger is another sin. A capital one.

But if by "sin" you mean "disobeying God", then he couldn't sin.

He doesn't make a good role model, but technically he couldn't sin.


Then that means there's no objective value to good and evil, it's all merely the whim of god.
There's no ultimate truth, just blindly following whatever god tells you.  Kind of like what every human dictator has wanted...
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 03:43 AM on October 5, 2008 | IP
wisp

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Well, christianism treats God as a subject, and He would impart the rules, so no, there would be no objective value to good and evil.

The "fact" that God says something and does the other isn't that serious.

This one is bigger: Why would someone who needs NOTHING do ANYTHING (nice OR ugly)?

It makes absolutely no sense.

Oh, but they answer anyway: To love us, to give Himself to us, to show His Glory, and so on.

-But does he have any need of love/give/glory/etc?
-No.
-So?
-So he does it out of love.
-Which he doesn't need?
-Right.

Meh...



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:33 PM on October 7, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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He doesn't need it, but He wants to. He wanted to create something in his own image, something he could love, nurture, and cherish.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 10:29 PM on October 8, 2008 | IP
wisp

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That's human thinking.

Evolution has modeled our perception. Humanity has made up a god (well, plenty of them, actually) and imbued it with human attributes. Like "doing" or "wanting" (just as it has made us believe that the sky above our heads is closer than the sky close to the horizon).

He who wants, lacks. There's no way around this.

Please, meditate about this.

Vary your reading.

Read some buddhism. What it has to say about desires.

Read some taoism.


The Tao never does anything,
yet through it all things are done.

The great Tao flows everywhere.
All things are born from it,
yet it doesn't create them.
It pours itself into its work,
yet it makes no claim.
It nourishes infinite worlds,
yet it doesn't hold on to them.
Since it is merged with all things
and hidden in their hearts,
it can be called humble.
Since all things vanish into it
and it alone endures,
it can be called great.
It isn't aware of its greatness;
thus it is truly great.


Besides, if we look at the statistical consequences of what God "did" we should conclude that he wanted something to punish, kill and make suffer.

Most humans go to Hell according with the biblical account.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 05:55 AM on October 9, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Well, that is our fault. Besides there's no other place to go.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 10:07 AM on October 9, 2008 | IP
wisp

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If we have fault, and we were made, then we were made faulty.

Don't you agree that an infinite being would have no desires?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:42 AM on October 9, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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no, we are not made faulty, we are made with free will. We disobeyed. him. So, we can't all go to the nice place.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 7:32 PM on October 10, 2008 | IP
wisp

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Then it's not our fault?

Make a decision. Fault or no fault?

Again: Don't you agree that an infinite being would have no desires?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 04:49 AM on October 11, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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No. He didn't. Lucifer had those desires, and he tempted us. We fell for it. It was our fault. All the bad in the world is mankind's fault.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 5:12 PM on October 11, 2008 | IP
wisp

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Lucifer had those desires? About creating humans? I thought God had done that. ^o)

If free will is NOT a fault, then it can't lead to faulty behavior.

How can we be tempted to do something about which we don't care?

I cannot be tempted to do anything which isn't tempting according to my nature. And supposedly God gave us that. Our nature.

Again, if there's any fault in us, it would be in our maker also.

What does it take for someone to be tempted with knowledge?
It would take curiosity, and weakness (if he believes it's wrong to go ahead and take it).

Did God create us curious and weak?

If Adam was created strong, but didn't know he shouldn't do it, then it was ignorance. No fault here.

If he knew but couldn't help but doing whatever he did, then he was weak. And then it's God's fault.

Man, there's no way around this. None that makes sense anyway.

Edit: Check your signature. It's not "Melhouse" but "Milhouse". And it was Bart who said that anyway.


(Edited by wisp 10/11/2008 at 7:35 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 7:26 PM on October 11, 2008 | IP
Baconsbud

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I doubt that jsf16. I figure if you look at sites other then christian one you will find those same kinds of stories about their beliefs.


-------
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 06:56 AM on October 13, 2008 | IP
wisp

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Could you please rephrase that, Baconsbud? I didn't understand it.


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 07:50 AM on October 13, 2008 | IP
0112358132134

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wow, god seems like he has low self esteem, considering its WAY more important to him that you believe in, and love him than all those children you killed with a rock.  


(Edited by 0112358132134 10/13/2008 at 6:47 PM).


-------
“It is impossible for any number which is a power greater than the second to be written as a sum of two like powers. I have a truly marvelous demonstration of this proposition which this margin is too narrow to contain.” -Pierre de Fermat
 


Posts: 42 | Posted: 3:02 PM on October 13, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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God had Noah preach to these people, for over 200 years. They ignored him. No one was handing their babies over to the 'crazy old guy'.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 6:31 PM on October 13, 2008 | IP
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huh?


-------
“It is impossible for any number which is a power greater than the second to be written as a sum of two like powers. I have a truly marvelous demonstration of this proposition which this margin is too narrow to contain.” -Pierre de Fermat
 


Posts: 42 | Posted: 6:47 PM on October 13, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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God is accused of being evil for drowning the children in the flood.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 8:49 PM on October 13, 2008 | IP
0112358132134

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Edit: irrelevant

(Edited by 0112358132134 10/13/2008 at 9:32 PM).


-------
“It is impossible for any number which is a power greater than the second to be written as a sum of two like powers. I have a truly marvelous demonstration of this proposition which this margin is too narrow to contain.” -Pierre de Fermat
 


Posts: 42 | Posted: 9:17 PM on October 13, 2008 | IP
wisp

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JSF16, is there any flaw in my reasoning?


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 9:28 PM on October 13, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Quote from wisp at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2008 :
Lucifer had those desires? About creating humans? I thought God had done that. ^o)

If free will is NOT a fault, then it can't lead to faulty behavior.

How can we be tempted to do something about which we don't care?

I cannot be tempted to do anything which isn't tempting according to my nature. And supposedly God gave us that. Our nature.

Again, if there's any fault in us, it would be in our maker also.

What does it take for someone to be tempted with knowledge?
It would take curiosity, and weakness (if he believes it's wrong to go ahead and take it).

Did God create us curious and weak?

If Adam was created strong, but didn't know he shouldn't do it, then it was ignorance. No fault here.

If he knew but couldn't help but doing whatever he did, then he was weak. And then it's God's fault.

Man, there's no way around this. None that makes sense anyway.

Edit: Check your signature. It's not "Melhouse" but "Milhouse". And it was Bart who said that anyway.


(Edited by wisp 10/11/2008 at 7:35 PM).



God is not faulty, he loved us so much, he gave us free will. And he decided never to interfere with our free will. Sin, sickness, death, hate, etc, is our fault. We had every chance to obey god, but when we where tempted, we fell. No fault is in our maker, and it wasn't in us. But, like a virus, sin entered the world. It caused us to lose our original connection with god.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 11:04 AM on October 18, 2008 | IP
wisp

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He loved us? But we didn't exist!

Did we exist in His mind? If that's the case, how would it be different if he created the Universe or not? Perhaps we still live in His mind and He never created anything.
And all of our "sins" would be just His imagination.

If sin was like a virus, how can we be responsible for that? The only possible "fault" there would be weakness. And, again, it would be God's fault. Please, stop saying "It's not His fault" without some reasoning to support it.

You quoted everything i posted, but didn't really give an answer.

Did God create Adam strong or not??

If you know what's right and have enough strength to chose it, you can never ever chose wrong!!!!

If you think i'm wrong, just tell me how (because, so far, you haven't).


(Edited by wisp 10/18/2008 at 1:26 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 1:22 PM on October 18, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Well, since god is all knowing, he knew every detail before they where in existence. So, he loved us. But he made us, because just loving the thought of us isn't nearly as good as actually having us. God made Adam as strong as any human being, any one today was as strong as Adam. God was testing Adam. Sin is when we knowingly do wrong. We could have no sin if Adam never succumbed to Lucifer.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 6:20 PM on October 20, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Well, since god is all knowing, he knew every detail before they where in
existence.


So he knows who will sin and who will not, that means there is no free will.

God was testing Adam.

How can an all knowing being test us????  He is all knowing, he already knows the results of the test before it even happens!  
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 8:51 PM on October 20, 2008 | IP
wisp

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Quote from JSF16:
Well, since god is all knowing, he knew every detail before they where in existence.
So far so good.

So, he loved us.
Yes, no problem with that. I just said "But we didn't exist!" to see if you pointed this out by yourself. And if you believed in a definition of "love" by which He could love us even before we existed.

But he made us, because just loving the thought of us isn't nearly as good as actually having us.
Sounds like underestimating God. Are those your own ideas?

God made Adam as strong as any human being, any one today was as strong as Adam.
So you don't believe in devolution?

It's difficult to discuss with several creationists, as they agree on so very little.

Ok, do you agree with me that if you have the knowledge of what's right, and the strength to carry it out, you can't chose something else?

Why would anyone chose anything else, if not by ignorance or weakness?

WHY??

God was testing Adam.
If you know everything, there's nothing to test.

I'll grant you that the Bible says God acted surprised. Was he faking it? DOES HE KNOW EVERYTHING OR NOT?

Supposedly God wanted to know if Adam deserved the Garden of Eden. But why not make him deserving in the first place? I'm not talking about free will. Just about the Judeo-Christian notion of "deserving".

Can't you have free will and deserve to go to Heaven?

Couldn't God make Adam that way?

Actually, did Adam go to Heaven, or what?

Sin is when we knowingly do wrong.
Wasn't the tree supposed to bear the fruit of knowledge of good and evil? Were they not supposed to be innocent before eating the fruit? If they had no knowledge of what's right or wrong, how can they sin?

We could have no sin if Adam never succumbed to Lucifer.
Or if there was no Lucifer in the first place. Or if He denied Lucifer's access to the Garden of Eden. Or if there was no such fruit. Or if he made Adam stronger/wiser.

You make it sound like Adam has a choice. But God supposedly made him in minute detail. He set in motion a chain of events that would end up with the expelling of the Garden of Eden, and all of the suffering afterwards.

I only see two options:
1) There's no fault.
2) It's God's fault.

In any of those cases Adam didn't deserve such treatment.

So, to sum up my questions (to know what you believe):
a) Does God know everything?
b) Did Adam know about good or bad before eating the fruit?
c) God's reason to make us (loving the thought of us isn't as good as the real deal), is your own idea?
d) Do you believe in "devolution"?
e) Why would anyone chose wrong, if not by ignorance or weakness (to me those two are the same thing)?
f) Can you have free will and deserve to go to Heaven?
g) Could God have made Adam deserving of Heavens?
h) Did Adam go to Heaven or what?

I appreciate your input.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 9:11 PM on October 20, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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a) Yes, he is all knowing.
b) I don't believe so, there was none, in the world, therefor, he probably did not grasp sin.
c) If he loves us so much, he didn't make us to use as play toys or to amuse himself.

I'll answer the rest later, I'm starving.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 11:20 AM on October 23, 2008 | IP
wisp

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a) Genesis 18:20/21

Then the LORD said: "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave, that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out."

Gen 3:8
They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

And why did He ask Cain where Abel was?

Yahweh asked things in the Bible. Why would he do that if he knew everything?

b) So Adam was punished although he committed no sin?

c) My question was if it's your idea. If not, where did you get it from?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:54 AM on October 26, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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a) People will ask, even if they know the truth. He was deciding to see if he lied or not.

b) No, he sinned. He ate the fruit.

c) This is my studied opinions.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 5:08 PM on October 26, 2008 | IP
wisp

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a) True. But that's pretending (cheating). Taking advantage of the other's ignorance of my knowing.

Anyway the Bible says that God was looking for Adam in the garden of Eden (after he had taken the fruit). Supposedly He didn't know where Adam was.

Besides the Bible says "(...) I must go down and see whether or not (...)". So He's not everywhere, and he doesn't know everything.

b) So you can sin without knowing what sin is? Without knowing what's good or bad? Then animals can sin.

c) Ok. I just wanted to know. No smart-ass thing to say about it. ^_^



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 6:41 PM on October 26, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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No, sin is when you do something wrong, but you know you are doing something wrong. If a mom tells baby bob, don't take a cookie, but baby bob takes one anyway, that's sinning. Adam knew not to eat the fruit, but he did it anyway.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 11:11 PM on November 1, 2008 | IP
wisp

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I asked
b) Did Adam know about good or bad before eating the fruit?
and you answered
b) I don't believe so, there was none, in the world, therefor, he probably did not grasp sin.
To me "good and bad" is the same as "right and wrong". Is it the same to you too?

To me if you don't know right from wrong you can't sin. Would you agree?

How old is your baby bob? Are you implying that a baby knows right from wrong?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:47 PM on November 2, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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If you do not know right from wrong, you cannot sin.

Also, God asked Cain where Abel was because he was giving him the chance to lie or not. He was saying. Will you lie, or will you at the very least be truthful?


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 9:23 PM on November 2, 2008 | IP
wisp

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Did Adam know right from wrong? Isn't that the knowledge that the fruit was supposed to bear?

Otherwise what was that fruit supposed to do?

Do you mean God asked Cain to know if he'd lie? Didn't He know already? I mean... He's God, you know...

To give him the chance, you say? God knows the intricacies of our minds. He knew that the chance wasn't real, for Cain was to lie no matter what.

Please, be honest. You know it makes no sense.You'll have my humble respect, if it means anything.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 9:59 PM on November 2, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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He knew that god told him not to eat it, so he knew that eating the fruit was wrong.

Of course he knew it all, but he still decided to do it ask him. He was still given the chance, even when god knew the future, he still gives chances.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 5:19 PM on November 3, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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He knew that god told him not to eat it, so he knew that eating the fruit was wrong.

Adam didn't know right from wrong!  He didn't know it was wrong!
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 10:11 PM on November 3, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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He knew god told him to not eat it, so he knew he was going against god's wishes. He may not have known the word wrong, but he knew he was doing something god told him not to do.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 10:41 PM on November 3, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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He knew god told him to not eat it, so he knew he was going against god's wishes. He may not have known the word wrong, but he knew he was doing something god told him not to do.

Don't try to play with semantics here, if he didn't understand the CONCEPT of right and wrong, he could not have done wrong.  Doesn't matter what God told him, if he didn't know right from wrong, he didn't know going against God's wishes was wrong.  He didn't know doing something that God told him not to do was wrong.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 10:30 PM on November 4, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Okay, let's say there's a boy who does not know the word wrong, but he knows what wrong is. Mom says. "No cookies before dinner." But he takes it anyway. He knows he has done wrong, he just does not know wrong by name.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 08:54 AM on November 5, 2008 | IP
    
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