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Demon38

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Okay, let's say there's a boy who does not know the word wrong, but he knows what wrong is.

That's the problem, Adam didn't know what wrong is!  It wasn't the word he didn't know, it was the concept of wrong!  Therefore, it was wrong of God to punish him!  He couldn't help himself!  He DIDN'T KNOW he did wrong!
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 4:07 PM on November 5, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Yes he did. He knew he was doing something god told him not to.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 8:23 PM on November 5, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Yes he did. He knew he was doing something god told him not to.

Since he didn't know right from wrong, he didn't know doing something god told him not to was wrong!
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 03:03 AM on November 6, 2008 | IP
wisp

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He knew god told him to not eat it, so he knew he was going against god's wishes. He may not have known the word wrong, but he knew he was doing something god told him not to do.
And what's wrong about that?

God told him one thing. The snake (God created), his woman (God provided), and his curiosity (God implanted) told him different about the fruit (God purposely grown to tempt him).

It's not about the word "wrong". The fruit wasn't supposed to teach him a word. It was supposed to give him the knowledge about good and evil, right and wrong.

And if the fruit really didn't do that, then what's the big fuss? Looks like God simply felt like punishing.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 04:28 AM on November 6, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Quote from Demon38 at 03:03 AM on November 6, 2008 :
Yes he did. He knew he was doing something god told him not to.

Since he didn't know right from wrong, he didn't know doing something god told him not to was wrong!


He knew he shouldn't eat it, but he did. He knew he had disobeyed god.




-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 5:01 PM on November 6, 2008 | IP
wisp

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Again, what's wrong about that?

He would have disobeyed (or at least disregarded) his woman (God provided), his curiosity (God implanted)... etc, if he did otherwise.

God told him he would die the day he ate the fruit.

Was Adam trying to commit suicide? No. So the only explanation is that he didn't believe God (or that God gave him an extraordinary short memory span, which would contradict your theory of devolution, and still not defend your position that he had it coming).
So he didn't know.

Man, you know it. He didn't know he should have done what a liar god (that must have been what he thought) told him to.

Adam obviously didn't trust God. And that (according to your religion), is a mistake.

So Adam was ignorant (about what he should do, and lots of other things), and didn't know right from wrong. And you know it.

Confess. ^_^



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 6:45 PM on November 6, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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He knew he shouldn't eat it, but he did. He knew he had disobeyed god.

And since he didn't know what right and wrong was or what they meant, he didn't know it was wrong to disobey God.  He didn't know he would be punished for it.  Therefore, God punished Adam for no good reason.  
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 08:06 AM on November 7, 2008 | IP
stealth3000

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Quote from Obvious_child at 11:57 PM on September 6, 2008 :

Your arrogance is beyond astounding.

In the Christian Religion, only God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. The concept of Grace should be understood by those who call themselves Christians. Obviously it's not.

You presume your interpretation supersedes God's will. Arrogance you have much.




your ignorance is even more outstanding!!

wow man in the bible it tells who will go to heaven, its simple to understand and there is no question to be asked it says whoever exepts jesus christ as his or her savior will go to heaven. ended that bs right in its tracks..

there was no presumption made.. were did you get that?? ignorance you have much lol!!!! mr yoda man
[b]

 


Posts: 15 | Posted: 09:18 AM on November 9, 2008 | IP
Obvious_child

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Quote from stealth3000 at 09:18 AM on November 9, 2008 :

your ignorance is even more outstanding!!

wow man in the bible it tells who will go to heaven, its simple to understand and there is no question to be asked it says whoever exepts jesus christ as his or her savior will go to heaven. ended that bs right in its tracks..

there was no presumption made.. were did you get that?? ignorance you have much lol!!!! mr yoda man
[b]



Try again.

Sola gratia

Do you know it?


 


Posts: 136 | Posted: 7:19 PM on November 9, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Quote from Demon38 at 08:06 AM on November 7, 2008 :
He knew he shouldn't eat it, but he did. He knew he had disobeyed god.

And since he didn't know what right and wrong was or what they meant, he didn't know it was wrong to disobey God.  He didn't know he would be punished for it.  Therefore, God punished Adam for no good reason.  

He knew he would be punished. Read the story, god said. "For if you eat of its fruit, you shall surely die."






-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 10:42 AM on November 10, 2008 | IP
wisp

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He knew he would be punished. Read the story, god said. "For if you eat of its fruit, you shall surely die."
Then, according to you, he WAS trying to commit suicide.

I would have guessed that Adam didn't actually believe God. Specially when the snake said "you won't die". That was what convinced Eve, and Adam saw she had eaten it and didn't die.

Or course you wouldn't say it wasn't God's fault to create a suicidal being...

Edit: Edit your quote so it looks right. ^_^


(Edited by wisp 11/10/2008 at 11:12 AM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:11 AM on November 10, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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He wasn't suicidal, he was curios and attracted by the thought of being like god.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 5:05 PM on November 10, 2008 | IP
wisp

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SO HE DIDN'T KNOW HE WOULD BE PUNISHED!


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 05:51 AM on November 11, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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He was aware he would be punished, but his curiosity out-weighed his caution.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 6:09 PM on November 11, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Since he didn't understand right or wrong, he had no sense of caution.  You keep ignoring the fact that he didn't know right from wrong, he didn't know you would be punished if you did wrong, he didn't know it was wrong to ignore god.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 02:52 AM on November 12, 2008 | IP
wisp

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If you know you'll die if you do something, doing it wouldn't be "incautious". It would be suicidal. Just like jumping off a tall building. You don't call those people "incautious".

If Adam knew for certain he would die after eating the fruit, he committed suicide.

So either he knew (and committed suicide), or he didn't (and didn't believe God).

Besides, being aware of the punishment doesn't constitute sin. Knowing that you're doing wrong is, i believe.

Otherwise, what would your definition of "sin" be?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 07:33 AM on November 12, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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God had told him, you will die. He didn't say physicaly, just spiritually. Adam sinned, he had done something he knew god had told him not to do.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 5:48 PM on December 3, 2008 | IP
wisp

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God had told him, you will die. He didn't say physicaly, just spiritually.
Ouch... Another metaphor... =(
I could answer "He didn't say spiritually, just physically."

The thing with biblical literalism is that there are lots of variants, and none of them is literal.

Some Jehovah Whitenesses told me that the death was literal (he did die), and the metaphor was "on that day (you will die)". For a day to God can be, well... How many years did Adam live? I guess that's a day for God.

But ok, let us say that it was a spiritual death (whatever that might mean). Then he committed spiritual suicidal. And i bet that, according to you, spiritual death is worse than physical death.

Adam sinned, he had done something he knew god had told him not to do.
We have all agreed that Adam did something God told him not to. No discussion there. That's crystal clear (even if it's not clear why would God make a being more curious than obedient and then punish him for that). Our argument is about what sin is, and if Adam was technically capable of sinning.

In this thread you have said:
b) I don't believe so, there was none, in the world, therefor, he probably did not grasp sin.


You also said:
No, sin is when you do something wrong, but you know you are doing something wrong.
and
If you do not know right from wrong, you cannot sin.


But when Demon said:
That's the problem, Adam didn't know what wrong is!
you said:
Yes he did. He knew he was doing something god told him not to.

You changed the requirements of sin, or you dropped the subject of sin.

In your last post ("Adam sinned, he had done something he knew god had told him not to do.") you definitely changed the requirements (and the very concept) of sin to "doing something God told you not to do".

When first i suggested that if Adam believed God he would be suicidal you answered:
He wasn't suicidal, he was curios and attracted by the thought of being like god.
Why didn't you mention the spiritual death interpretation back then? Did you ask some religious authority in the meantime?
Did Adam understand that God was talking about a "spiritual death"?

Actually why would Adam understand ANYTHING about death? You said he knew he would be punished (although that adds nothing to the subject we're treating, which is "sin" and "knowledge of right and wrong"). I know about death, while Adam did not. And he understood God better than myself, according to you. Perhaps it's because we have devolved a great deal since Adam... But in that case (you never really answered me if you believe in "devolution"), why would Adam be so silly as to disobey the guy that made everything? You say "tempted"... I say "silly" (to use a soft word). My excuse for not paying much attention to His word is simply that i don't believe it to be His word.

If God made me, and gave me everything, and tells me not to eat one little thingy, as imperfect as i am, i'd listen. If some thought of being like God crossed my mind i'd say "Meh, That Guy must know better."

Edit: I don't know if it shows, but i'm happy you decided to post again.

Looking forward to your answer.


(Edited by wisp 12/4/2008 at 4:16 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 4:15 PM on December 4, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Well, I don't have time to reply now, but I'll be back on this 'noon.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 09:13 AM on December 18, 2008 | IP
tonechild

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Quote from Demon38 at 10:28 PM on February 13, 2008 :
They're called hallucnations, when your brain is dprived of oxygen or under tremendous stress, people see strange things.  Nothing supernatural about it, people see things that aren't real, plain and simple.


Actually, science is not 100% why this happens, but when people die, they release a chemical called DMT into their brains, causing powerful hallucinations.  DMT is also released when you sleep.  Fun fact: DMT is an illegal substance in the United States.





 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 3:57 PM on December 22, 2008 | IP
tonechild

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Quote from JSF16 at 11:39 PM on September 13, 2008 :
Every NDE recorded, the person never saw Valhalla, or the Muslim heaven or hell, or just blacked out, like the Atheists say. They have always seen heaven, or hell.


This is a flat out lie,  "Thou shalt not lie"  "Thou shalt not bear false witness"

here's some food for thought:
1813.  Nora NDE English expanded version 12/20/2008 From the UK.  I felt like the whole world stood still. I didn't feel hard of breath, I felt calm. Next thing I know, I feel my spirit being lifted from by body - more specifically by my shoulders and I looked up (P.S. the pool was indoors) and the whole ceiling was this gorgeous white light as if a portal I felt drown to it in a way, at the time I was looking down and could see my cousin standing and the nannies frantic talking 'what should we do they said' in Hindi but I understood it ( I don't speak Hindi) at the time it felt weird I could see down at them but at the same time I could see the tiles and the water around me in the pool as if they were all one.  I remember looking down and having my whole life explained, to feeling the love of the people in my life, and most of all feeling like I had a choice to live.
NDE due to drowning in Qatar at age 10-11.

1809.  Roxie J NDE English expanded version 12/20/2008 I WAS REAR-ENDED AND CONFUSED, SEEING MY CAR DRIFTING TOWARD THE STOPPED CAR IN FRONT OF ME WHEN MY FOOT WAS COMPLETELY ON THE BRAKE AND I HAD BEEN FULLY STOPPED JUST SECONDS PRIOR. I FELT AS THOUGH I WAS SPINNING AS I BUMPED THE CAR IN FRONT OF ME, AND THEN LOOKING AHEAD I SAW THEM. TWO SEMI'S COMING AT ME FULL FORCE, I COULD HEAR THE JAKE BRAKES, THEY WERE ABOUT 50 FEET FROM ME, ONE IN EACH LANE. I KNEW I WAS GOING TO DIE IN THE NEXT FEW MOMENTS. AND I WAS FULLY OK WITH THIS REVELATION. THEN MY WORLD STOPPED. I SAW A BRIGHT FLASH OF LIGHT BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN, THERE WAS COMPLETE SILENCE. DIAMONDS WERE IN THE LIGHT SHINING AND FALLING ALL AROUND ME. I WAS SPINNING, FLYING, FLOATING. IT WAS WARM, AND PLEASANT FEELING.  I CAME TO AND REALIZED MY CAR WAS HANGING OFF THE SIDE OF AN OVERPASS, THE AIRBAG WAS DEPLOYED AND I WAS CUT FROM THE GLASS OF THE WINDOWS."

1808.  Fabia NDE English expanded version 12/17/2008 From Tunisia, Original in French, translated to English by Amy.  The I exit my body and ascend to the ceiling; I see my body entwined in bloody curtains, a door that keeps opening and closing. I am very far above, as if the ceiling were very high. The words "we can't save her! the car that was bringing blood was in an accident! we are sorry." My mother's cries: all this must be happening in hushed tones, but I hear it so clearly and loud, it's metallic. I think: "it's not possible that they are screaming so loudly!!!!" And then a deep well-being throughout my body, a desire to rejoin the scintillating brilliant light that is drawing me to it. But I hear my mother's cries and refuse to leave her. When I wake up, my head is pointed down and my chest hurts, it's hard to breathe.
NDE from childbirth complications.

1806.  Suzy B NDE English expanded version 12/17/2008 A formless presence from inside the light told me without words that I needed to live. I refused them because I did not want to return to a life and body filled with constant pain.  They told me that they needed me to live, and I told them that I needed to be with them.  The light felt like a transitory place between earth and the next place, and I wanted to move on to the next place rather than going back.  They expressed that I had an important purpose to fulfill for the Earth that was vital to the divine plan for our world.  I did not care at the time, and still wanted to move on.  Then they showed me an image of my young daughter, insisting that my return was vital to her growth, and I felt the desperate despair she would experience for many years if I did not return.  I then agreed to return.  They instructed me how to bring myself back.  Instead of being enveloped by the light, I was to envelope the light within myself and use its power to re-manifest and strengthen my physical being.  I concentrated on the light pulled it in to myself.
NDE due to adverse reaction to medical treatment.

there are thousands, if not millions, that do not have Jesus or Satan in their NDE's.  A lot of them have "light" and parental figures or lossed loved ones.

Near Death Experience Research Foundation - NDERF Is the largest NDE Website in the world with over 1800 full-text published NDE accounts

 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 4:02 PM on December 22, 2008 | IP
    
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