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   Creationism vs Evolution Debates
     Validity of the Question?
       Logical Validity of the Question

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Xerozero

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I read the poll titled "Is this proof that evolution may be false?" Because it is not possible to have proof of anything and have it "may be" false, I made this post to share my thoughts.


Why do you need proof that something might be wrong when it might be wrong with out proof? And how can you have proof and still have doubt?


Yes or no to the poll, have the same meaning. The question is null and void and it’s "may be false” or “may be true” which are equals, either way (pro or con). You can’t have a "may be true" or "may be false" and have proof. Something must be true or false if you have proof. Proof is proof. Maybe the question that was meant is "Is this theory evidence that evolution may be false", which is still a pointless question. But the reason that evolution “maybe false” or “maybe true” is that there is more than one side of the argument, and ideas that point in the direction of each, which are all good things in the evolution of human thought.

I personally believe in evolution in which God set the starting conditions of, and for, mankind either at the beginning of the Universe(s), or at the beginning of Earth. In either case, that would be the starting place of, and in, time for man, since the god in my mind is not restricted to our time.

If I had read the poll title with more thought, I would not have participated in it.

This is the first poll that I have ever participated in which every vote was in agreeance because of the question.

Any positive thoughts, facts or theories are appreciated.
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 01:02 AM on August 10, 2002 | IP
Xerozero

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In further thought of the polls question, I realized that anyone that voted yes believes that a theory is proof, In which case the only valid vote is no. For what the poll serves I have no Idea.

 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 01:26 AM on August 10, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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right....
*CONFROOSED*

But the real deal is that in an infinite universe of possibilities un-attainable through now-a-day technology, there is no real way to prove something because you cant have proof that that proof is right, and so on.

(Edited by Exxoss 11/1/2002 at 5:01 PM).


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 4:11 PM on September 24, 2002 | IP
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Does this have anything to do with "if a tree falls in the forest and you don't hear it, did it fall?"
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:18 PM on November 11, 2002 | IP
StormCrow

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LOL well if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, yes it still makes a sound (or at least vibrates the air for what would be recieved as sound).

I would argue that the universe is not infinite, nor that proof is unattainable. Gravity for isntance certainly can be proven. Heliocentric orbit can be proven. So forth and so on. Clearly however evolution is still a theory.


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 5:35 PM on April 24, 2003 | IP
Crim

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The Theory of Evolution is much more developed than the theories behind gravity.
 


Posts: 17 | Posted: 7:45 PM on April 24, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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What does it matter? The point is that theories can be proven, and disproven, tha's why their theories. Whether they're more or less complex, proof should be furnished before the THEORY is taken as LAW.


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 9:29 PM on April 24, 2003 | IP
Demon38

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Theories in science are as good as it gets, there's nothing higher.  Laws are mathematical concepts.  Theories don't "graduate" to laws.  There is no Law of gravity, no Law of quantum mechanics, no Law that says the sun is the center of the solar system, like evolution, they too are "just" theories.  
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 11:13 PM on April 24, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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but gravity and heliocentric orbit can both be proven, be they laws or theories


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 10:45 AM on April 26, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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but gravity and heliocentric orbit can both be proven, be they laws or theories


-------
"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 10:56 AM on April 26, 2003 | IP
Crim

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How are they proven?
 


Posts: 17 | Posted: 11:16 AM on April 26, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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if you throw an apple does it fall down? Of course it does, thus gravity is reasonably proven. The sun revolves around the moon, as do all the other planets in our solar system, the sun can't rotate around all of them.


-------
"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 9:38 PM on April 26, 2003 | IP
Crim

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And allele frequences in populations change over time.

PLUS, unlike gravity, we have well-established mechanisms for it.
 


Posts: 17 | Posted: 11:01 PM on April 26, 2003 | IP
Demon38

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An apple falling down is evidence that supports the theory of gravity.  Like many theories, the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the Theory of Gravity.  We can make predictions based on this theory, we can put a rocket into space, make an airplane fly, a million other things. It's the theory that best explains the evidence we see while making the fewest assumtions.  But it's still just a theory so it's not 100% proven.  Same thing with the heliocentric theory.
Science doesn't try to prove anything 100%.  Science looks at all the available evidence, forms an hypothesis about it, looks for a way to falsify the hypothesis, makes predictions based on the hypothesis.  When the hypothesis fails to be falsified by current knowledge or evidence and some of it's predictions are met, the hypothesis becomes a theory.  A theory can be falsified by new evidence or knowledge that disputes it.  Or it can be strengthened by new evidence that supports it or new predictions that support it.
This is sciences greatest strength, it never rests on dogma, everything is open to testing, experimentation, new evidence.  Every theory can change to reflect new data, it can be updated.
Evolution meets these criteria, in 150 plus years, it has not been falsified.  All the predictions it made have been met and subsequent predications have also been met.
All evidence found to date has supported the Theory of Evolution.  It is one of the most established theories in science.


 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 11:21 PM on April 26, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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All evidence found to date has supported the Theory of Evolution.

What about the cambrian explosion? The fosil record of the cambrian explosion would show that alot of new organsims appeared for the first time.

We can make predictions based on this theory, we can put a rocket into space, make an airplane fly, a million other things. It's the theory that best explains the evidence we see while making the fewest assumtions

But if you understand the principal of flight, you'll know that it's more than just gravity at work, there's thrust, drag, lift and a few others.  And evolution does make assumptions, and all of which are unobserved. We've never witnessed a lizzard grow wings, nor are their cold blooded rodents. Evolution cannot be tested. The first micro organism cannot be created by anything scientists have done. So isn't that ASSUMING?


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 3:34 PM on April 28, 2003 | IP
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But if you understand the principal of flight, you'll know that it's more than just gravity at work

Doesn't matter.  You can still make predictions -like escape velocity- based on the ideas of gravity.

We've never witnessed a lizzard grow wings

Why would a lizard grow wings?

Evolution cannot be tested.

Evolution is tested all the time.   It's mechanisms and it's results are already confirmed.

The first micro organism cannot be created by anything scientists have done.

And this has nothing to do with evolution.
 


Posts: 17 | Posted: 3:38 PM on April 28, 2003 | IP
Demon38

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"What about the cambrian explosion?"

What about it?  The fossil record does show that a lot of new species appearred for the first time.  How is this a problem for the Theory of Evolution?

"But if you understand the principal of flight, you'll know that it's more than just gravity at work"

You're missing the point, we make predictions based on our understanding of the theory of gravity.  Planes can fly, rockets do achieve escape velocity so our understanding of the theory must be very good.  Same for the Theory of Evolution, every year 1000's of fossils are found, none are out of order, more and more transitionals are found, just as the ToE predicts.
Therefore, our understanding of the ToE must be pretty darn good.

"We've never witnessed a lizzard grow wings, nor are their cold blooded rodents."

The ToE doesn't demand this, in fact, a lizard suddenly growing wings or a mouse being born cold blooded from warm blooded parents would falsify the theory of evolution.  If this is what you think evolution is, you don't understand it at all.
And while we would never expect a lizard to grow wings, the fossil record clearly shows us a fully functional animal with both bird like characteristics and reptilian characteristics, Archeopteryx, just as the ToE predicts.  So I guess if you want to call a prediction an "assumption", you'd be forced to admit that all the "assumptions" the ToE has made HAVE been observed,
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 01:35 AM on April 29, 2003 | IP
    
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