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   Creationism vs Evolution Debates
     YE Creationists - Real Science
       Do YE scientists contribute to Science?

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Demon38

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Okay, than what about Darwin's finches, he discovered that bids that looked like were not necessarily related.

What?!?  All the finches Darwin observed were related.  You don't seem to understand what really happened with Darwin's research.
From here:
wikipedia
"Following his return from the voyage, Darwin presented the finches to the Geological Society of London at their meeting on 4 January 1837, along with other mammal and bird specimens he had collected. The bird specimens, including the finches, were given to John Gould, the famous English ornithologist, for identification. Gould set aside his paying work and at the next meeting on 10 January reported that birds from the Galápagos Islands which Darwin had thought were blackbirds, "gross-beaks" and finches were in fact "a series of ground Finches which are so peculiar" as to form "an entirely new group, containing 12 species." This story made the newspapers. In March Darwin met Gould again, learning that his Galápagos "wren" was another species of finch and the mockingbirds he had labelled by island were separate species rather than just varieties, with relatives on the South American mainland. Darwin had not bothered to label his finches by island, but others on the expedition had taken more care. He now sought specimens collected by Captain Robert FitzRoy and crewmen. From them he was able to establish that the species were uniquely related to individual islands, giving him the idea that somehow in this geographical isolation these different species could have been formed from a small number of common ancestors so that each was modified to suit "different ends"."

This is natural selection in action.  

I don't see how this supports your point.  You can't copmpare evolution to cars because cars don't reproduce.  Are you even going to comment on this point?  You are ignoring all the points where you're shown to be wrong.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 9:43 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
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My bad. If all you ever saw of the birds was their beaks, how would you know if they were related?


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 9:45 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
Demon38

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If all you ever saw of the birds was their beaks, how would you know if they were related?

I'm not an ornithologist, I don't know.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 9:48 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
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Well I remember that once some archaeologists found tooth. From that tooth they believed that they found the missing link. They created whole life stiles around this one tooth. It turned out that the tooth was a pigs tooth.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 9:51 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
Demon38

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Well I remember that once some archaeologists found tooth. From that tooth they believed that they found the missing link. They created whole life stiles around this one tooth. It turned out that the tooth was a pigs tooth.

As usual, you got it wrong.
NebraskaMan
"Most other scientists were skeptical even of the more modest claim that the Hesperopithecus tooth belonged to a primate. It is simply not true that Nebraska Man was widely accepted as an ape-man, or even as an ape, by scientists, and its effect upon the scientific thinking of the time was negligible."

No one believed they had found the missing link, no one even believed it was a human ancestor and most scientists of the time rejected it as even a primate.

"Nebraska Man should not be considered an embarrassment to science. The scientists involved were mistaken, and somewhat incautious, but not dishonest. The whole episode was actually an excellent example of the scientific process working at its best. Given a problematic identification, scientists investigated further, found data which falsified their earlier ideas, and promptly abandoned them (a marked contrast to the creationist approach)."

So once again, you are wrong.  This is an example of how science works, a tenative hypothesis was proposed, it was falsified by scientists.  You'll note that it wasn't creationists who showed it was a pigs tooth.
You should stop relying on untrustworthy creationist sources for your information!



 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 10:57 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
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However my point was not its effect on scientific thinking, my point was that it is possible for intelligent people to be fooled.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 11:06 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
Demon38

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However my point was not its effect on scientific thinking, my point was that it is possible for intelligent people to be fooled.

Yes it is possible for intelligent people to be fooled but the scientific method and peer review don't rely on one persons word, results must be observable, testable and repeatable.  Evolution has withstood over 150 years of attempted falsification.  It has made literally millions of successful predictions, it is used practically in industry, medicine, farming.  
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 12:00 AM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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I have never seen an example of E. coli mutating into a multicellular organism with multiple defined organs.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 10:57 AM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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I have never seen an example of E. coli mutating into a multicellular organism with multiple defined organs.


I already explained this. There is no selective pressure for E. coli to do that. The experiments are with antibiotics. How would going multi-cellular help E. coli be more resistant to antibiotics?

I've never seen you run a mile. Does this mean you can't run a mile? No. In order for me to show that you could run a distance less than a mile but no longer, I would have to come up with some kind of barrier that would prevent you from running any farther. Likewise, if your claim is that E. coli can evolve in other species of protozoans but cannot evolve into multi-cellular protozoans, you must come up with a barrier that would prevent the E. coli from doing so. There's no logical reason that E. coli couldn't have evolved more than what we see in the lab.

As the addage...

What does a macro amount of microevolution come out to?


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http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
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Posts: 729 | Posted: 11:38 AM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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the E. coli could form a multicellular membrane that wouldn't let the antibiotics through.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 12:35 PM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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the E. coli could form a multicellular membrane that wouldn't let the antibiotics through.


Or, on a more practical level, it could simply evolve immunity and have it over and done with in less than day's worth of reproduction.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 04:04 AM on January 15, 2007 | IP
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The Idea is that you need to have some example of single cells become multicellular.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 11:08 AM on January 15, 2007 | IP
Demon38

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[b]The Idea is that you need to have some example of single cells become multicellular.[b]

Just because we don't know the exact path from single cell to multicell organisms doesn't mean it's impossible.  Quite the opposite, since we see single celled organisms forming multicelled organisms today.
From here:
Single to Multi

"A living example of the attempts to become multicelluar organism is represented by the slime moulds, which transform from single cells to one multicelluar organism under adverse condition. Another example is found among the green alga Volvox and its relatives. As shown in Figure 10-04a, the ranges of sizes go from the single cell Chlamydomonas to the 16-cell Gonium, Eudorina, and finally to the largest species of Volvox, which may consist of 50000 or more cells. "

(Edited by Demon38 1/20/2007 at 01:53 AM).
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 01:04 AM on January 16, 2007 | IP
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Quote from Demon38 at 01:04 AM on January 16, 2007 :
[b]The Idea is that you need to have some example of single cells become multicellular.[b]

Just because we don't know the exact path from single cell to multicell organisms doesn't mean it's impossible.  Quite the opposite, since we see single celled organisms forming multicelled organisms today.
From here:
Single to Multi

"A living example of the attempts to become multicelluar organism is represented by the slime moulds, which transform from single cells to one multicelluar organism under adverse condition. Another example is found among the green alga Volvox and its relatives. As shown in Figure 10-04a, the ranges of sizes go from the single cell Chlamydomonas to the 16-cell Gonium, Eudorina, and finally to the largest species of Volvox, which may consist of 50000 or more cells. "

(Edited by Demon38 1/20/2007 at 01:53 AM).



The slime mold did not become multi cellular with unspecialized cells. it did not form a new species.

(Edited by SilverStar 1/30/2007 at 4:29 PM).


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Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 4:28 PM on January 30, 2007 | IP
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The slime mold did not become multi cellular with unspecialized cells. it did not form a new species.


It certainly did too. I notice that you simply didn't even bother refuting the Volvox algae.


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http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 7:18 PM on January 30, 2007 | IP
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Okay, I will respond to the Volovox algae. The Volovox algae does not form specialized components for specialized purposes. It does not form a brain, heart, and liver, for instance.


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Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 08:46 AM on February 7, 2007 | IP
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Okay, I will respond to the Volovox algae. The Volovox algae does not form specialized components for specialized purposes. It does not form a brain, heart, and liver, for instance.


Organs aren't the only forms of specialized components, and algae has plenty. You first challenged marcroevolution because you weren't aware of any single-cellular organisms evolving into multi-cellular organisms. When proof of that was supplied, you fell back on more ignorance of biology.

This isn't working. You need a pick a line and defend it.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 8:31 PM on February 7, 2007 | IP
    
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