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Reason4All

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In debates regarding these two topics, I have seen the creationist always attack evolution. Let´s turn the table around!

Here are my questions to creationists:

1. What exactly do you want taught in school instead of evolution (i.e what do you believe in specifically)?
2. What scientific data do you have for those claims? Remember that the bible is not a scientific text!
3. Have you any scientific discoveries that a CREATIONIST has made that supports your belief, and disproves evolution, rather than what you usually do, namely use scientific discoveries made by scientists and spin them to suit your predetermined belief (this would be testable if a non-believer saw this evidence and could not explain it in any other way than your explanation)? And remember, it has to be scientific and it has to be only applicable to your "theory", not to evolution!

I would be extremely grateful if you could answer these simple questions, the same way you demand answers from scientist who support evolution!

All the best!


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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 7:45 PM on August 13, 2008 | IP
Reason4All

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still nothing.... hmmm... ;)


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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 3:17 PM on August 14, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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I would have to say evolutionists attack creationists just the same as vice versa.  Anyways, I would like to see both taught in schools, just because I know they're not going to teach just creationism.  Let the kids decide what they want to believe. That's why I send my children to a private school, where I know exactly what they are being taught...6 day creation. Thank you


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 7:24 PM on August 16, 2008 | IP
Obvious_child

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Why should we teach a factless belief in science as fact?

Furthermore, Beaner you have no problem teaching your kids that your God is a giant liar, a huge deceiver, dishonesty incarnate?
 


Posts: 136 | Posted: 7:54 PM on August 17, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Let the kids decide what they want to believe.

Hey, let,s do that with all science!  Teach flat earth along with a spherical earth and let the kids decide!  Teach a geocentric solar system, like the bible says,  along with the theory that the earth revolves around the sun and let the kids decide which one to believe in!  What an utterly stupid idea.

That's why I send my children to a private school, where I know exactly what they are being taught...6 day creation. Thank you

You're welcome, you've made sure your children won't ever be biologists or doctors.  And you've turned them into superstitious morons.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 9:46 PM on August 17, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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I find it hilarious how enraged you can become by me stating my views.  Get over it, you think I'm a moron, I think your blind to the wonder of creation. No point on have a discussion with when all it turns into name calling and animosity.  Praise God the Almighty creator!!!


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 12:20 AM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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I find it hilarious how enraged you can become by me stating my views.

And I find it down right sad that there are still people who believe in silly superstitions and insist others are taught these superstions as fact.  
You never commented on letting kids decide what in science they believe in, would you let them believe in a flat earth?  A geocentric solar system?  The theory of evolution is a fact, fully supported by all available evidence, just as much a fact as the earth orbitting the sun.

Get over it, you think I'm a moron, I think your blind to the wonder of creation.

Evolution is the central concept of biology.  It is essential to modern medicine.  It is practically applied in farming, raising livestock, medicine, industry, just to name a few fields.  
Why would you want to deny such an valuable idea for humanity?

No point on have a discussion with when all it turns into name calling and animosity.

Well, I do find the idea of letting kids decide what is real a stupid idea.  Maybe the moron crack was over the top so I apologize for that but you can't be a biologist without accepting evolution.  And you can't do any real medical research without accepting evoluiton, either.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 12:32 AM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Reason4All

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First of all, I agree with Beaner that name calling is unnecessary! I feel that we have enough facts and data to support our argument that we don´t need to reside in arrogance or rudeness.

Now, dear Beaner! Let the kids decide for themselves? But there is nothing to decide! Evolution happened and is happening all around us, all the time. We haven´t decided that it is happening, we have observed and proved it to be so. And please, do not think that acceptance of this would lead to atheism, because over 40% of US Scientists are Christians who believe in a prayer answering, kind God!

Don´t you think that it is important to back scientific claims with evidence? And we have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to Evolution. If we don´t demand evidence, then what is there to stop Alchemy, Astrology or Flat Earth theory to children?

I hope you will let your children learn about Evolution to it´s furthest extent, and don´t be afraid for them to lose their faith or anything like that. They will most probably be as faithful, but much more enlightened.

All the best!


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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 12:02 PM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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Thank you for being a little more rational Reason4All.  Evolutionists and Creationists have the exact same evidence to look at.  But  there are many different ways to interpret it.  The flat earth thing grows a little old though.  Not to be rude but your evidence is Crap.  You can't say evolution is fact, because there is no one old enough to verify it.  You can date all the rocks you want, but who says your method isn't flawed.  We date rocks too, and come up with totally opposite numbers.  The concept of "Natural Selection" I can believe BUT let's talk about how the rock became the animal first, and then move on to Natural Selection.  As for teaching my children that God and evolution can go hand in hand.  That my friend will never happen.  What is the point of teaching them to fear their maker and then tell them the universe came to be thru evolution.  I might as well tell there is no God.  You may be right that there is no tolerance for a christian biologist in this world but a doctor why not, it's all about helping your fellow man, another biblical teaching. As for you Demon38 , I dont care if my children become doctors or biologists or work at McDonalds for the rest of there life.  As long as they enjoy what they do and are tolerant and kind to there fellow man.  We will never see eye to eye.  I cannot fathom how this super complex universe came to be from absolutely nothing by trillions of mere coincidenses.  The fossil record is just not there.  If this planet has been around as long as you say, we should all be walking around neck deep in fossils and bones showing the complete evolutionary process from nothing all the way up to man.  You can tell me all you want about your "FACTS" but I'm sorry the evidence as I see it is not there.


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 7:53 PM on August 18, 2008 | IP
fredguff

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I would have to say evolutionists attack creationists just the same as vice versa.


I don't know about "evolutionists".  When scientists, judges, journalists and respected clergymen attack creationists, it is because the creationists have failed to demonstrate the scientific validity of the beliefs they are trying to shove into the public school science curriculums.  Creationists also like to bend the truth if not distort it totally when pushing their agendas.  
And it doesn't stop there.  Many Creos have shown time and time again that they are igorant of the very Bible they seem to worship.  

Anyways, I would like to see both taught in schools, just because I know they're not going to teach just creationism.  Let the kids decide what they want to believe.

Uhm no...That's not how it works.  If we as a nation want to ensure that future generations have the requisite, doctors, engineers, scientists, researchers, teachers and technicians, than we as a nation must insist that only SCIENCE is taught in the science class.  If kids want religion, they can get it in church.

 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 8:04 PM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Obvious_child

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Quote from Beaner at 7:53 PM on August 18, 2008 : Not to be rude but your evidence is Crap.


Oh really? Care to cite a piece of actual evidence used today to support evolution?

You can't say evolution is fact, because there is no one old enough to verify it.


By that logic, everything that is over 120 years old cannot be proven to have ever existed since there is no one old enough now to verify it.

You can date all the rocks you want, but who says your method isn't flawed.  We date rocks too, and come up with totally opposite numbers.


Who? No one. What? Nuclear power. Furthermore, independent dating through different methods all result in similar ages. What you are talking about is deliberate deception. Non-cogentic samples that are KNOWN to be non-cogentic are tested by creationists and claimed as proof of dating's errors. That's massive fraud on their part.

The concept of "Natural Selection" I can believe BUT let's talk about how the rock became the animal first, and then move on to Natural Selection.


You are missing so many steps it's not even funny.

www.talkorigins.org

Start there and get an education. How can you teach your kids when you don't understand yourself?

What is the point of teaching them to fear their maker and then tell them the universe came to be thru evolution.


So much for the Christian concept of "love." As for evolution, only one interpretation of Genesis makes it exclusive.

I might as well tell there is no God.


Wrong again. A metaphorical interpretation of Genesis has no such problem, nor do the thousands of other religions out there. Some religions like Deism require evolution. Your ignorance of other religions is astounding. how can you expect to teach your kids when you do not understand yourself?

We will never see eye to eye.  I cannot fathom how this super complex universe came to be from absolutely nothing by trillions of mere coincidenses.


Your failure to understand natural selection is quite appalling.  

The fossil record is just not there.  If this planet has been around as long as you say, we should all be walking around neck deep in fossils and bones showing the complete evolutionary process from nothing all the way up to man.


That shows a complete ignorance of how fossils are made, how they are preserved and how plate movement destroys them. We do have plenty of places that show the gradual change of individual species from simple to complex. The white cliffs of Dover in England are a perfect example of shell fish evolution over millions of years.

You can tell me all you want about your "FACTS" but I'm sorry the evidence as I see it is not there.


Have fun teaching your kids that their God is the ultimate Liar.


 


Posts: 136 | Posted: 8:11 PM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Reason4All

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My dear Beaner, I´m afraid there might be, if you forgive me for saying so, some misunderstanding here.

In most cases, Christians, or any other religious people, find no contradiction between their faith and the theory of evolution. As far as I know, this debate is only happening in the US, where for some reason a this branch of Literalism has grown. No where else in the world will you find people questioning Evolution in anywhere close to the extent of the US.

But a question that has always bothered me is: Why are these so called literalist Christians only focusing on Creation, but discard other parts of the Bible? I´ll give some examples and I would appreciate it very much if you could be so kind to answer, look forward to your reply!

Deutronomy 21: 18.21

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.

Exodus 21: 7

If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.

Exodus 35: 2

For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Or why is it that in the first chapter of Genesis, God creates Adam and Eve together, but some chapters later he first creates Adam, then Eve out of his rib? And if you want to believe in the 6 day creation hypothesis from the Bible, can you explain how you know it was six exact dates? Because it says in Genesis that God didn´t create the sun until the fourth day, and the sun is surely required for a 24 hour day, is it not?
How long were the days before the sun was created?

Now, speaking of evidence. First of all, scientists use several different methods to determine the age of anything, not just one. And once they all come to the same conclusion, then they test and re-test again. Once all tests show the same conclusion, then that result is considered to be scientific. The evidence for evolution is not solely based on a biologists conclusions, the beautiful thing about it is that archeologists, paleontologists, chemists, biologists, pharmaceutical scientists, physists and so on, ALL COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION USING DIFFERENT METHODS.

I have read and re-read the Bible, I can only recommend you to truly study Evolution from a scientific source, and see that
A) It never asks you to stop believing in your God or give up your faith.
B) It gives an extremely fact and evidence supported account for the origin of species.
C) It is highly applicable in almost every scientific field.
If you have as strong of a faith as you seem to have, then you should not be afraid to have it challenged.

My friend, there is no conspiracy in the scientific community. No one would be as glad as a scientist if she/he could prove Evolution incorrect, they would be millionaires, Nobel Prize winners, immortalised, economically independent and have changed the entire scientific model. This is just not happening, and these are people who truly devote their lives to meticulously examining, studying, testing and re-testing this field. Can´t you have some faith in them? You already do whenever you go to the hospital, or (God forbid) take your child to see the doctor, you put your faith in to evolution, because it is by evolution that the methods and the medicine doctors use are developed.

Finally, I need to say that the magic word is
applicable! A scientific theory has to be applicable. That means that if someone comes up with a scientific theory, one has to see this theory in practice. If Evolution is correct, we should find fossils A, B and C. Scientists have found A, B, C, D all the way to Z, and still going strong. If Evolution is correct, we should find the shift in the DNA-code (a very recent method has been developed for this) where rats and mice deferred from their common ancestors, or human and chimpanzees. We have found this. Here is a clip with Dr. Kenneth Miller, a Christian biologist, explaining this. Please watch.

All the best!


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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 10:20 PM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Reason4All

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The link:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=kenneth+miller&emb=0#


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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 10:21 PM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Evolutionists and Creationists have the exact same evidence to look at.  But  there are many different ways to interpret it.

Yes, a right way and a wrong way.  Creationists look at it the wrong way.  They already have drawn their conclusions and try to force the evidence to fit them.  Any evidence that contradicts this preordained conclusion must be ignored.  All biologists agree, evolution is valid, we actually see it happening today and the evidence is overwhelming that it happened in the past.

The flat earth thing grows a little old though.

Kind of like the creationism thing, both are completely wrong.

Not to be rude but your evidence is
Crap.


Which evidence is that, because you've been wrong about everything you've posted, and ignored everyone who's pointed it out to you.  So give us the specific evidence that is crap and we'll show you how you're wrong concerning that, too.

You can't say evolution is fact, because there is no one old enough to verify it.

Verified every day, WE SEE IT HAPPENING!  It's an observed phenomenon.  So yes, evolution is a fact.

You can date all the rocks you want, but who says your method isn't flawed.

Atomic theory tells us the method isn't flawed, the same theory that allows us to generate electricity with atomic reactors, the some theory that  allows us to build atomic bombs.  If the method was flawed, we couldn't build reactors or bombs.  

We date rocks too, and come up with totally opposite numbers.

No they don't, this is a completely untrue statement.  In fact, just the opposite is true.  Since experts test samples with multiple tests, how could you expect different tests to give the same wrong answer??  Well they don't, rocks tested by different dating techniques invariably give the same date.  It's called concordance and is the reason we know these dating techniques are NOT flawed.

The concept of "Natural Selection" I can believe BUT let's talk about how the rock became the animal first

A rock???  You seriously don't understand biochemistry!  Tell us why, specifically, chemicals couldn't combine to form a self sustaing cell.  And how do you react to the claim that we'll be able to create life by natural means within the decade?  

As for teaching my children that God and evolution can go hand in hand.  That my friend will never happen.

Their loss...

What is the point of teaching them to fear their maker and then tell them the universe came to be thru evolution.

As other Christians can tell you, evolution could be the tool God used to create.  How do you know how God created?  Please show your evidence...

I might as well tell there is no God.

Well, that's up to you, but as has been stated many times, most Christians worldwide accept evolution and have no problem believing in
God at the same time.

You may be right that there is no tolerance for a christian biologist in this world but a doctor why not, it's all about helping your fellow man, another biblical teaching.

It's not christian biologists or doctors, it's creationist biologists and doctors!  You can't do biology with creationism as a central premise.  Biology only makes sense when you use evolution to explain it.  Simple as that.  Very deceitful of you trying to make this about "tolerance", it's not, it's about what works and what doesn't.  Creationism doesn't work and evolution does.  And maybe old, backwoods doctors can get by without accepting evolution.  but it's the wave of the future and no doctor will be able to ignore it.  Do yourself a favor and look up Darwinian medicine!

As for you Demon38 , I dont care if my children become doctors or biologists or work at McDonalds for the rest of there life.  As long as they enjoy what they do and are tolerant and kind to there fellow man.

Well, I have a problem seeing any child in the country forced to remain ignorant because of primitive superstition, but they are your children, raise them as you see fit.  But I will not allow you and your superstitious brethern to try and teach your nonsense  to anyone else in public or private schools. It's  people like you who will lead us into another dark age.

I cannot fathom how this super complex universe came to be from absolutely nothing by trillions of mere coincidenses.

OK, you can't fathom it, it didn't happen!  Can you fathom how stars form or does that not happen either?  Do you undertand gravity or is that just a story also.  What you can and cannot fathom is not a barometer for reality.  If you can't understand something, do a little research so you can at least ask meaningful questions.  As for "trillions of mere coincidences", chemistry doesn't work by coincidence, evolution doesn't work by coincidence.  Once again you demonstrate that you don't understand modern science.

The fossil record is just not there.

Oh yes it is!  The fossil record supports ONLY the theory of evolution and nothing else.  Please explain to us why you claim it supports anything else.

If this planet has been around as long as you say, we should all be walking around neck deep in fossils and bones showing the complete evolutionary process from nothing all the way up to man.

Nope, sorry, you don't understand what happens when organisms die.  Most of the time their bones decay completely.  So your claim is once again completely wrong.  Since fossilization is an extremely rare occurence, how do you explain the fossil series we HAVE found, like the therapsid line of fossils...

You can tell me all you want about your "FACTS" but I'm sorry the evidence as I see it is not there.

But like most creationists, you are afraid to look at the evidence because it completely destroys your primitive superstitions.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 10:57 PM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from Beaner at 7:53 PM on August 18, 2008 :
As for teaching my children that God and evolution can go hand in hand.  That my friend will never happen.  


An attitude that has led many to atheism.





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Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 11:25 PM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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Hello Demon38

What do you say about the dinosaur bones being found in the arctic that are NOT even fossilized. They are real bones being found  in the frozen earth? Please explain.  Nicely please with less bitterness. Thankyou                                                              


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 11:39 PM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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What do you say about the dinosaur bones being found in the arctic that are NOT even fossilized.

They don't exist.  From here:
Fossils

"Frustrated with the lack of information, I e-mailed AiG directly about the issue and was sent a clipping from one of their magazines, stating:

It was our hope, because of the “remarkable” preservation, that these bones might contain some ancient organic molecules. To date, our tests have not been able to confirm the “unfossilized” hypothesis. Twenty of the bone samples were analyzed in Russia for collagen. Only four showed positive results. We became suspicious of these results when we were not able to confirm them with tests made by other labs. One report from a reputable laboratory in the United States told us the samples they tested were “extremely degraded”. Some of the bones have also been tested for DNA. The results were inconclusive. From our results thus far, the bones should not be referred to as “unfossilized”. [emphasis original]

The Bureau of Land Management reports that the Alaskan bones are fossilized, but all of their pore spaces have not been filled in with rock, making many of them lightweight. They also report that no DNA had been discovered in the bones, but because of their condition, they might be good candidates for it. Until further testing can prove otherwise, the Alaskan dinosaur bones should be referred to as “fossilized.”

John H. Whitmore"

There have been no unfossilized dinosaur bones found.


 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 11:55 PM on August 18, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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HELLO REASON4ALL,
Deut21. Wow what a harsh punishment.  I bet it was very effective in making children respect there parents and keep them from being lazy drunkards.  Was it ever carried out, I don't but I know it would keep me in line.
Exodous 21. Without going thru Bible commentary I can't give you a complete answer, but don't take this verse out of context, read the following verses.  It is apparent slaves were treated like people (servants) not property.  People could become slaves to pay off debt or if they were in poverty.  Slaves often married into the family.
Exodous 35.  Reason4All, picture this. You are the Almighty Creator (God) you created this planet and everything else.  Basically the planet and people are yours because you created them.  I would say that gives you the right to make the rules.  If God created the world in 6 days and rested, and wants to instill on his people that it is good to work, but it is also necessary to rest and gives thanks to him for all they have, so be it, After all he is the Almighty One!
In those times, when Israel obeyed God's commands, He richly blessed them with all they needed.  It must have been something for the surrounding nations to look over at Israel prospering so greatly even though they took a day off of work each week.  Must have got them asking why -don't you think.
As for the length of a day.  If the Bible says a day it must have been a day-24 Hrs.  That is point of view.  I know there is alot of other Christians who have caved on "the day could have been a million years thing"  To me he's not much of an Almighty creator if he let "Natural Selection" do the work over millions of years.  Again that is my view, many Christians would argue.

As for the Bible not asking me to give up my faith if I believe in evolution.  It just doesn't make any sense.  If evolution is responsible for the universe, our planet and our existence, why pray to God, he's not the Almighty One.  You are coming from the opposite side than me.  You believe that he doesn't exist so what's the harm in beleiving in evolution.  I believe I will be held accountable at the end of my life for everything I think, say and do.  That's a scary thought.  I will not deny my maker.  That is faith.  But not blind faith.  Because I honestly say, that when I hear the claims of scientists or whoever, about evolution or the latest evidence found that proves it.  I laugh and roll my eyes and think that's ridiculous, how do they come up with that.  It has nothing to do with my faith, I am genuinely not convinced in the least.  I'll say it again NOTHING +NO ONE CANNOT EQUAL EVERYTHING.

Anyways, I tried to get on that site you gave me, no succes, But I'll try again tomorrow.
As for no conspiracy in the scientific community, come on be realistic, if anyone comes up with something that supports the creation model, they are instantly discredited and laughed out of town.  
I got  to go to bed it's late in my neck in the woods.  Tomorrow I'll have another question 4 ya.    TOODLES

(Edited by Beaner 8/19/2008 at 01:11 AM).


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 01:05 AM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Because I honestly say, that when I hear the claims of scientists or whoever, about evolution or the latest evidence found that proves it.  I laugh and roll my eyes and think that's ridiculous, how do they come up with that.

AS I pointed out, evolution is a fact and is successfully applied to medicine, farming, animal rearing, industry.  If not for evolution we could not feed the world's population.  How the experts come up with it is by observing the natural world.  How do you explain the fact that a theory you don't believe in is so incredibly successful?

I'll say it again NOTHING +NO ONE CANNOT EQUAL EVERYTHING.

What does this statement have to do with the theory of evolution???
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 01:52 AM on August 19, 2008 | IP
fredguff

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Beaner: As for no conspiracy in the scientific community, come on be realistic, if anyone comes up with something that supports the creation model, they are instantly discredited and laughed out of town.


This one always kills me...So in essence you are claiming every single religious based college and university with an accredited biology department in the USA and Canada is in on this conspiracy?!!!

What about the Baptists who are affiliated with Baylor University?

What about the Methodists who are affiliated Southern Methodist University?

What about the Desciples of Christ who are affiliated with Texas Christian University?  Are they part of the conspiracy?

What about the Catholics who run Notre Dame, Georgetown, etc.  ?   Are they part of the cabal that is trying to silence any scientific evidence supporting creationism?

Huh?

Bottom Line: If you have evidence that supports your conspiracy theory, please present it...And if, as I am certain, you have no evidence, then thanks for demonstrating once again that creos are dishonest.
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 05:58 AM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Galileo

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Quote from Reason4All at 10:21 PM on August 18, 2008 :
The link:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=kenneth+miller&emb=0#


Wow I didn't know that about the fused chromosomes!



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Hallowed are the Invisible Pink Unicorns
 


Posts: 160 | Posted: 06:51 AM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from Beaner at 01:05 AM on August 19, 2008 :
As for the Bible not asking me to give up my faith if I believe in evolution.  It just doesn't make any sense.  If evolution is responsible for the universe, our planet and our existence, why pray to God, he's not the Almighty One.  


So God is limited to what makes sense to you personally.



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 1:50 PM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Reason4All

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Quote from Beaner at 01:05 AM on August 19, 2008 :
HELLO REASON4ALL,
Deut21. Wow what a harsh punishment.  I bet it was very effective in making children respect there parents and keep them from being lazy drunkards.  Was it ever carried out, I don't but I know it would keep me in line.


Well, first of all, you have attached a historical element to this verse, whereas my question was why this is not implemented today? Do you think that it should be carried out today to children who do disobey their parents? Because it says so in the Bible, doesn´t it? Should we stone disobedient children to death or is the Bible wrong?

Exodous 21. Without going thru Bible commentary I can't give you a complete answer, but don't take this verse out of context, read the following verses.  It is apparent slaves were treated like people (servants) not property.  People could become slaves to pay off debt or if they were in poverty.  Slaves often married into the family.


I have read the following verses, and this is in no way taken out of context. Does or does not the Bible accept and even promote slavery? Even to a father and his daughter? Should this be implemented today or is the Bible wrong? And you didn´t address my question regarding two contradictory stories in the creation story regarding how God created Adam and Eve simultaneously in one verse, and in another he first created Adam, and some time later Eve? One of them has to be wrong, doesn´t it?

Exodous 35. It must have been something for the surrounding nations to look over at Israel prospering so greatly even though they took a day off of work each week.  Must have got them asking why -don't you think.


Not exactly my point, I have nothing against resting.

As for the length of a day.  If the Bible says a day it must have been a day-24 Hrs.  That is point of view.  I know there is alot of other Christians who have caved on "the day could have been a million years thing"


But that doesn´t answer my question my dear friend! I wondered how it was possible for a day to be 24 hours long before the sun was created?

As for the Bible not asking me to give up my faith if I believe in evolution.  It just doesn't make any sense.  If evolution is responsible for the universe, our planet and our existence, why pray to God, he's not the Almighty One.  You are coming from the opposite side than me.  You believe that he doesn't exist so what's the harm in beleiving in evolution.  I believe I will be held accountable at the end of my life for everything I think, say and do.  That's a scary thought.  I will not deny my maker.  That is faith.  But not blind faith.  Because I honestly say, that when I hear the claims of scientists or whoever, about evolution or the latest evidence found that proves it.  I laugh and roll my eyes and think that's ridiculous, how do they come up with that.  It has nothing to do with my faith, I am genuinely not convinced in the least.  I'll say it again NOTHING +NO ONE CANNOT EQUAL EVERYTHING.


Evolution is not responsible for the universe, it´s just a law in nature, like gravity. Like many others have pointed out, most Christians around the world have no problem in believing in an Almighty God and accepting the theory of Evolution. When you say that you laugh and roll your eyes, that doesn´t really prove anything about the claims made. I don´t really know what your profession is, but I would guess that you are no scientist. Imagine then you, after years of passionate research,   thousands of hours of hard study, frustrating testing and re-testing, make a claim about something regarding your line of work, and then someone who is in no way affiliated with that line of work laugh at your claim and denounce it as nonsense. It wouldn´t be you who immediately would be wrong, would it? And by the way, how do you know that I believe God doesn´t exist? I have never mentioned a word of my personal beliefs, and will not do so either because I find no reason to be personal in a debate about science.

As for no conspiracy in the scientific community, come on be realistic, if anyone comes up with something that supports the creation model, they are instantly discredited and laughed out of town.


I never said that the discovery should support creation, it just needs to disprove evolution incorrect. And please take my word for it, since I spend a lot of my time with scientists, they would be enthralled if they made such a discovery! It just doesn´t happen...

Next time you have to visit a doctor, ask him whether the medicine and methods he use are a product that derives from the theory of evolution,   and then ask yourself whether you haven´t already put your faith in evolution hundreds of times in your and your families life already!

Look forward to your question! All the best!



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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 3:18 PM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Reason4All

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Quote from Galileo at 06:51 AM on August 19, 2008 :
Quote from Reason4All at 10:21 PM on August 18, 2008 :
The link:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=kenneth+miller&emb=0#


Wow I didn't know that about the fused chromosomes!




It´s amazing, isn´t it? ;)


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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 3:21 PM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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OH GOODY MORE HATE MAIL!!!

Not much time to talk so I'll ask this little question to you,Reason4All.  Could you explain what you mean by "evolution is not responsible for the universe", and if not what is?   Later.

(Edited by Beaner 8/19/2008 at 11:49 PM).


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 7:17 PM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Could you explain what you mean by "evolution is not responsible for the universe", and if so what is?   Later.

The theory of evolution only explains how life changes over time.  It does not explain how the universe formed, how the earth formed, how life first formed.  These are explained by other theories.  Many times creationists will lump all the stuff that contradicts their superstitions together and call it "evolution" but you must realize that they are different theoris, addressed by different disciplines of science and are not strictly interrelated.  
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 8:16 PM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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Well,well.
Now we're getting somewhere.  Please don"t stop there, do extrapalate on how the universe, earth and life began.  Which leads me to a Second question.

I would assume that the first "primitive life" on earth reproduced Asexually.  As time went on the "primitive life began to evolve into more "complex" life forms.  Now there came the time where some life forms began to reproduce Sexually.  How would  2 seperate individuals unknowingly produce COMPATIBLE sexual organs (male and female) for reproduction to occur.  The odds of the 2  seperate beings "evolving" compatible organs is ASTRANOMICAL.  Now let's talk about every other sexually reproducing species that would come to be.  They too would've had to come up with compatible reproductive systems.  Even more unlikely.  I doubt there was blueprints lying around.  Asexual reproduction would seem to be much more effecient than sexual which makes me wonder how sexually reproducing life made it thru "natural selection"

Your 2 cents would be appreciated!


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 10:18 PM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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You're basing your questions on an faulty understanding of evolution.  Seperate individuals do not evolve.  Only populations evolve.
How could compatible male and female sex organs evovle and instantly be compatible?  Simple, they didn't.  Early organisms clearly could both reproduce asexually and exchange genetic material with each other, without the need for males and females.  

They too would've had to come up with compatible reproductive systems.  Even more unlikely.

Not at all.  Once exchanging gentic material proved to be beneficial, the evolution of male and female was very likely.  

I doubt there was blueprints lying
around.


Blueprints?!?!  No, mutation and natural selection can easily account for what we see.

Asexual reproduction would seem to be much more effecient than sexual which makes me wonder how sexually reproducing life made it thru "natural selection"

Do some research and you'll find out why sexual reproduction is advantageous.
From here:
GoodSex

"Sex creates novel genotypes more rapidly

This diagram illustrates how sex might create novel genotypes more rapidly. Two advantageous alleles A and B occur at random. The two alleles are recombined rapidly in (a), a sexual population, but in (b), an asexual population, the two alleles must independently arise.Sex could be a method by which novel genotypes are created. Since sex combines genes from two individuals, sexually reproducing populations can more easily combine advantageous genes than can asexual populations. If, in a sexual population, two different advantageous alleles arise at different loci on a chromosome in different members of the population, a chromosome containing the two advantageous alleles can be produced within a few generations by recombination. However, should the same two alleles arise in different members of an asexual population, the only way that one chromosome can develop the other allele is to independently gain the same mutation, which would take much longer.

Sex increases resistance to parasites
One of the most widely accepted theories to explain the evolution of sex is that it evolved as an adaptation to assist sexual individuals in resisting parasites, also known as the Red Queen hypothesis.[8][9][10]

When an environment changes, previously neutral or deleterious alleles can become favourable. If the environment changed sufficiently rapidly (i.e. between generations), these changes in the environment can make sex advantageous for the individual. Such rapid changes in environment are caused by the co-evolution between hosts and parasites.

Sex helps the removal of deleterious genes

Mutations can have many different effects upon an organism. It is generally believed that the majority of non-neutral mutations are deleterious, which means that they will cause a decrease in the organism's overall fitness.[13] If a mutation has a deleterious effect, it will then usually be removed from the population by the process of natural selection. Sexual reproduction is believed to be more efficient than asexual reproduction in removing those mutations from the genome.[14]"

There are a couple of the reasons sexually reproduction is advantageous.


 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 10:59 PM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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You say "  when the exchanging of genetic material proved beneficial the evolution of male and female was very likely"- you make it sound like evolution is something an individual can "will to happen" or strive to improve itself. I thought evolution was based on the mutation of genes that sometimes proved beneficial.


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 11:42 PM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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I found this article particularly interesting.

www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~do_while/sage/v9i7n.htm

A hoax I'm sure.snicker snicker


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 11:45 PM on August 19, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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You say "  when the exchanging of genetic material proved beneficial the evolution of male and female was very likely"- you make it sound like evolution is something an individual can "will to happen" or strive to improve itself. I thought evolution was based on the mutation of genes that sometimes proved beneficial.

Evolution definitiely is not "willed to happen" but if exchanging genetic material between 2 organisms proved beneficial, then any other mutations that occurred to enhance this exchange would also be selected for.  This directly refutes your claim:
"They too would've had to come up with compatible reproductive systems.  Even more unlikely."
Evolving more compatible reproductive systems is not unlikey, with natural selection  at work, it is inevitablbe.  No will invlved, no conscious design, just non random, unintelligent natrual selection.

"
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 12:08 AM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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A hoax I'm sure.snicker snicker

NOt a hoax, just another example of desperate creationists who don't understand science.  They were never thought to be blood cells, like creatinists claim and new evidence marks them as nothing more than modern contamination.  So all those creationists articles proclaiming dinosaur blood has been found are wrong.  Not a hoax, just wrong....
From here:
NoDinoBlood

"A scanning electron microscope survey was initiated to determine if the previously reported findings of “dinosaurian soft tissues” could be identified in situ within the bones. The results obtained allowed a reinterpretation of the formation and preservation of several types of these “tissues” and their content. Mineralized and non-mineralized coatings were found extensively in the porous trabecular bone of a variety of dinosaur and mammal species across time. They represent bacterial biofilms common throughout nature. Biofilms form endocasts and once dissolved out of the bone, mimic real blood vessels and osteocytes. Bridged trails observed in biofilms indicate that a previously viscous film was populated with swimming bacteria. Carbon dating of the film points to its relatively modern origin. A comparison of infrared spectra of modern biofilms with modern collagen and fossil bone coatings suggests that modern biofilms share a closer molecular make-up than modern collagen to the coatings from fossil bones. Blood cell size iron-oxygen spheres found in the vessels were identified as an oxidized form of formerly pyritic framboids. Our observations appeal to a more conservative explanation for the structures found preserved in fossil bone."

Now that's Funny!


 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 12:22 AM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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True or False.

Massive bone beds are found all over the world.  These immense bone beds contain all kinds of animals together in them.


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 12:28 AM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Yes, but not all kinds of animals from different eras, we never find rhinos and triceratops together, never find dolphins and icthyosaurus together.  In other words, if all these animals lived at the same time, as creationists claim, they would be buried in the same strata, they are not, so they didn't live at the same time.  



(Edited by Demon38 8/20/2008 at 12:44 AM).
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 12:31 AM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from Beaner at 12:28 AM on August 20, 2008 :
True or False.

Massive bone beds are found all over the world.  These immense bone beds contain all kinds of animals together in them.


"
ALL kinds? I would say false.

Do you have an example?


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 12:32 AM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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I'm getting tired of refuting Beaner's claims and then have him ignore my responses and move on to another unrelated topic.  I guess we just have to assume that he concedes he was wrong on  those points that he doesn't answer...  Heck of a way to debate...
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 12:48 AM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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True or False

Some animals and fish are buried in such a way that the lie in 2 different stratas.


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Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 12:50 AM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Apoapsis

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I've heard of it happening for trees, even seen the potential of it with my own eyes.  Ever been to the Petrified Forest?  If those trees are buried again they will appear to be in two strata.


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 01:00 AM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Some animals and fish are buried in such a way that the lie in 2 different stratas.


False!  Doesn't happen!
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 01:07 AM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Obvious_child

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Quote from Demon38 at 12:48 AM on August 20, 2008 :
I'm getting tired of refuting Beaner's claims and then have him ignore my responses and move on to another unrelated topic.  I guess we just have to assume that he concedes he was wrong on  those points that he doesn't answer...  Heck of a way to debate...


your actions are quite futile. A truly diehard creationist like him isn't going to change his mind period.

He'll be spamming this same crap on other boards.
 


Posts: 136 | Posted: 05:03 AM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Reason4All

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Right, I have to say that I´m surprised over how easily I let myself, together with my fellow evolution-accepting friends, get drawn into defending Evolution when the purpose of this thread was exactly the opposite, namely to question creationism. So nice job Beaner, have to say creationists have made an art out of shifting the focus away from their own hypothesis! Kudos!

So let´s focus on Creationism again, shall we? Evolution is completely accepted by scientists from all beliefs, classes and genders, so I´m happy with that.  

Beaner, my dear friend, why aren´t you answering the question regarding Adam and Eve? Is or is not the Bible wrong in this point?
You actually didn´t address any of the things in my last post, so I would appreciate it if you would in your next post. Here are some more questions I would be grateful if you could answer!

1. Let´s say Evolution is proven wrong. Let´s say we discover that it never happened. That still doesn´t prove your belief, does it? What evidence do you have that God created the world in six days?
2. How do you know that it was the Abrahamic God that created the world? How do you know it wasn´t Vishnu, Krishna, Mithra, Zeus, Allah (although some would argue he is in fact the same as the god in the bible), or any other of the million gods and million different creation stories that exist?
3. Where is Noah´s ark? I think that a boat that can stand the greatest flood of all time, one so massive that, according to you, it went right through the mountains and created the Grand Canyon in a matter of minutes, and can carry all the billions of different species on the planet, should have stood against the test of time, like the pyramids, or the clay houses in northern Persia. So, where is it?
4. If the world is really just 600 thousand years old, and we are all descendants from Adam and Eve, how do explain the massive variation in the human genome today? Noah had his two sons on the boat, so there we have the same X chromosome. If this X chromosome had only approxiametly 5000+ years to evolve, we would never have had the incredible vast diversity in the gene codes! We would never have any problems with heart transplantations or such, because  the time for them to genes to evolve  develop away from their origins would be non existent.

I leave you with these questions, hopefully you would be so kind to answer! All the best!


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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 1:02 PM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Beaner

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You're right I too have had enough.

Where's Noah's ark? What a ridiculous question.  Where is 1 transitional specimen.  You can't give me one, because there is none.  I get cartoon drawings of them from Fredguff.  How pathetic, is that the best you got.  Ya that's real science in action. I'm suppost to believe that we don"t find any transitionals because fossils are rare and break down over time. BULL.  There are multiple bone yards all over the world with millions of fossils in them.  Animals all smashed together in huge mass graves. Dinosaurs, hippos, foxes, eagles, camels, corals, starfish, any animal you can name. But guess what . NO TRANSITIONALS.
NOT ONE. Why? Because Dinosaurs and every other animal we see today were living at the same time. Oh by the way it doesn't take millions of years to make a fossil it takes thousands. How you ask.  Entombed in mud and silt and rock like we find the boneyards.  But what would cause all these animals to be buried in these massive graves, wonderfully preserved? HMMMM I WONDER.  A huge cataclysmic event. HMMM WHAT COULD THAT BE. Ya that's right. You know the answer but you wont let yourself beleive it because it doesn't conform with your preconceived notion that the world is millions of years old.  YES, the flood of the BIBLE.  Perfect conditions to wash huge amounts of animals and plants into mass graves and seal them in with silt and mud etc. The evidence is right there in front of you.  I've heard it all from you guys. YOUR A LIAR, YOUR GOD IS A LIAR, CREATIONISTS IGNORE THE FACTS.  It is You who ignore the obvious.

I have been mocked and ridiculed and called names, even been told my children are morons from you. Real mature.  Just cause I don't share your preconceived notions.  And yet I'm suppose to beleive that in the scientific world, conflicting evidence would be embraced and the scientist who found it would not be discredited and mocked.  BULL AGAIN.  I've gotten it from you, and scientists get it from there peers when they have evidence that conflicts with evolution.

www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~do_while/sage/v9i7n.htm

Do yourself a favor and look at it.  She was tarred and feathered and sent packin'  I know her situation is not unique.

As for your views on sexual reproduction Demon38. BRUTAL.  I don't care if you think life evolved in groups as you say.  The bottom line is this mindless, thoughtless, knowledgeless mysterious thing  you like to call  Natural selection is FLUKE SELECTION.  Can fluke create compatible sexual organs for reproduction. Not to mention precisely at the right time in history(not millionsof years apart) for a species to shift to sexual reproduction. A resounding ABSOLUTELY NOT.

You say I'm sad.  You are the ones that are sad, and ignorant of all the evidence.

Don't bother with a rebuttal, I won't be back.
.
Talking to you monkeys is the only thing that might convince me we evolved from apes.



-------
Prove it.....In english please!
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 8:13 PM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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Where is 1 transitional specimen.  You can't give me one, because there is none.

There are plenty of transitional species, both alive today and in the fossil record.  What are the characteristics that you think a transitional species should have?  And why isn't the duckbilled platypus a transitional species (it has both mammialian and reptilian characteristics)...

I'm suppost to believe that we don"t find any transitionals because fossils are rare and break down over time. BULL.

BULL is right!  We find plenty of clearly transitional fossils!  The fact that you just ignore them when we present them to you is your problem.

There are multiple bone yards all over the world with millions of fossils in them.  Animals all smashed together in huge mass graves. Dinosaurs, hippos, foxes, eagles, camels, corals, starfish, any animal you can name.

I say your wrong, completely, 100% wrong.  All you have to do is give us an example of a bone yard that contains all that, if you can't  then it proves your wrong.  So put up or admit you're wrong, bet ya can't do it!

I have been mocked and ridiculed and called names, even been told my children are morons from you.

That's because every statement you've made has been moronic!  You can't back them up, you can't support your moronic claims and everytime you're shown evidence that provbes you are wrong, you ignore it.  Yeah, real mature...

And yet I'm suppose to beleive that in the scientific world, conflicting evidence would be embraced and the scientist who found it would not be discredited and mocked.
BULL AGAIN.


That's exactly what happened over 200 years ago when some scientists finally had the nerve to go against the christian church and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that creationism was incorrect, Christian scientist, I might add.

Do yourself a favor and look at it.  She was tarred and feathered and sent packin'  I know her situation is not unique.

If you're talking about Mary Schweitzer, this is a lie, she was NOT sent packing.  She is a respected research scientist and is working for NASA now.  Please explain to us how she was "sent packin'".  You really like to make stuff up, don't you.

It's clear that you don't understand science in general or biology in particular.  You obviously can't debate and the sources you believe in have all been proven wrong and deliberately deceptive. They lie for Jesus.  

Go ahead, don't respond to this post, you failed miserably to support your primitive, superstitious beliefs and couldn't deal with the real evidence and facts presented to you, so we're not missing anything by your absence.  You continuously ignored every post where your pathetic claims were totally refuted.  Let's face it, like most creationists, you can't deal with reality, so you stick your fingerws in your ears and pretend it doesn't exist.  Creationism will eventually die the same death as the flat earth and a young earth and the world will be better for it.

 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 9:04 PM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Reason4All

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Beaner, I notice a very harsh tone in your last post, and if I am at all responsible for this, please allow me to apologize and assure you that whatever I have done to offend you was never intentional! I do agree with you that some of the others who post here unfortunately resolve to bad manners, and that they do owe you an apology, but I truly hope you wont let that get in between our discussion, which I find very interesting and rewarding indeed!

You see, I was born in Iran and grew up in Sweden, and I´ve lived in Spain, Australia, Norway, Scotland and England, and never have I come across a creationist or even someone who does not accept Evolution, so for selfish reasons I am extremely grateful to have "met" you! I know that I probably will never change your point of view, and I doubt that you can show me any data that will make me change my acceptance of Evolution. But, I still find a debate very interesting and fulfilling because it broadens ones perspective to the way others think. I hope you will stay on and disregard those who insult you or your children, whom I hope all the best for!

Now, hoping that you will read and reply, I will rebuttle your last post.
First; You still haven´t answered any of my questions. Please do so.

Okey, transitional fossils. How about Tictalic, a transitional fossil between a fish and an amphibian? Panderichthys? Elginerpeton? Just between apes and man there are incredible amount of transitional fossils, but the problem is, when pointed out to a creationist, there is always an excuse for these. For example, the most famous transitional specimen is Lucy. Kent Hovind explains Lucy by calling it a monkey like creature that today is extinct, but not a transitional specimen!
Check this clip out from minute 8:25 and onwards, there you will see the transitional record between horses and elephants. Even those who oppose evolution  agree that the fossil record clearly show the transition sequence between late reptile and mammals.

Why is the question of Noahs ark ridiculous? If you´re demanding fossils from us that we claim are millions of millions years old, why can´t we ask for the remains of a boat that is only couple of thousand years old?

Regarding the science and conflicting views. Stephen J. Gould and Richard Dawkins, probably the two greatest modern day evolutionary biologists had a several year disagreement regarding many elements in the theory. They presented facts for their arguments. They did not spend time trying to debunk the other persons claims. Creationists just don´t do this my friend. Look at any scientific journal you like, if in anyone of them, you don´t find something contradictory to an accepted theory, that journals editor is not doing his/her job!

Now, please try to answer my questions, or just admit you can´t and the bible is wrong and so is creationism.  Start in any order you like!

All the best!


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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 9:27 PM on August 20, 2008 | IP
Baconsbud

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I have read most of the comments and yet I have seen nothing about the original questions. What type of creationism should b taught in the classroom? I mean if you study religions even I can see there are hundreds of different versions that are available to be taught.
 The second part about scientific data. Will any claim made by someone about how all came to be used or will there be a limit to what can be called scientific data? What scientific textbooks will be used to show creationism is?
  Beaner all these questions are for you since you are the only one that sems to feel he has the answers. If you can't provide answers to these simple questions, how can you support your own view?


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History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 10:00 AM on August 21, 2008 | IP
Reason4All

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Baconsbud, I couldn´t agree more! I wanted this thread to be about questioning creationism, not Evolution. Hopefully Beaner will come back and share his thoughts with us.

All the best!


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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 12:40 PM on August 21, 2008 | IP
knightofchrist

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If you believe in evolution then you must accept that the human brain and in essen ce the mind are the results of random chemical reactions that somehow lead to thought. Now If our thoughts are all the reaction of random atoms bouncing around in our brain then how can you trust your own thoughts. After all you wouldn't buy a computer that was randomly put together because it would not work properly so why trust your thoughts and understanding of the world if your mind is but a random coincident with no plan or meaning to it.


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If evolution is correct then our minds are the result of random chemical reactions then how can we trust them?
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 7:43 PM on September 2, 2008 | IP
Demon38

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If you believe in evolution

No one "believes" in evolution, we accept it based on overwheliming evindence.  And let's face it, evolution is an undeniable fact.

then you must accept that the human brain and in essen ce the mind are the results of random chemical reactions that somehow lead to thought.

You don't understand evolution, it's not random.  And since thoughts are chemical and electrical in nature, why can't they have formed by natural processes?

Now If our thoughts are all the reaction of random atoms bouncing around in our brain then how can you trust your own
thoughts.


Well, as we've pointed out to you, are thoughts aren't random, evolutin isn't random, so your point is meaningless.

After all you wouldn't buy a computer that was randomly put together because it would not work properly so why trust your thoughts and understanding of the world if your mind is but a random coincident with no plan or meaning to it.

Your the only one claiming anything is random.
Evolution is not, your point is disproven.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 9:29 PM on September 2, 2008 | IP
Reason4All

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Quote from knightofchrist at 7:43 PM on September 2, 2008 :
If you believe in evolution...


Why is it that no creationist dares reply to the questions this thread started with? Why are you instead focusing on evolution? Try to answer the questions instead...




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If your faith blinds you from the truth, it´s not the truth that needs to adapt!
 


Posts: 35 | Posted: 3:40 PM on September 5, 2008 | IP
JSF16

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Quote from Demon38 at 12:32 AM on August 18, 2008 :

you can't be a biologist without accepting evolution.  And you can't do any real medical research without accepting evolution, either.


I simply bust say bull. Our church has a member, a Christian, who is a cancer specialist. My friend's mom is nurse, my other friends dad is a doctor. All Christians.




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Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 8:31 PM on September 6, 2008 | IP
    
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