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   Creationism vs Evolution Debates
     The Origin of Life
       Calculating the Probability of that First Organism

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Apoapsis

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Creatures with one cell find an advantage to being sensitive to light, what % would you call this of an eye?

Flagellated protazoa


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Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 08:04 AM on April 14, 2005 | IP
peddler8111

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Quote from pasha at 1:10 PM on April 10, 2005 :
First of all evolution is happenign every singe day, even as you sit in your chair right now. Many people ask 'if evolution is true then why isn't it happening today?"
One example is of Thomas Hunt Morgan's fruit flies, in 1909 he had only one species of fruit flies the "wild type"(all had red eyes) which showed no variants in it and after isolating a  population of the wild type and breeding them for a year he found one variant, a fruit fly with white eyes. after a short time period he found other mutations(SLIGHLY different from other fruit flies, genetically), 85 mutations to be more precice, and the genes of these fruit flies were passed from generation to generation(they will alway exist and may or may not be expressed in their children). Mutations are occurences that happen in nature and over a long period of time give rise to new species.  To put it in simpler and more coherent words, " The demonstration of a spontaneous, inheritable alteration in a gene had consequences far beyond the study of drosphilia(fruit fly) genetics. It suggested a mechanism for the origin of VARIATION that exists within POPULATIONS(such as humans, mice, flies, bacteria and even viruses)--evidence for a vital link in the theory of evolution. If VARIANTS of genes could arise spontaneously, then isolated populations could become GENETICALLY DIFFERENT from one another und ULTIMATELY(SOmetimes in millions of years) give rise to new species."(Cell and Molecular Biology. Gerald Karp. Fourth Edition)
Fruit flies mature in 10 days(to a sexually mature adult)and a fruit fly can produce 1000 eggs withing a lifetime, thats why, with such a population that lives, breeds and dies so quickly, variations can be followed VERY precisely(in the example a bove it took one year to find 85 mutations). Ladies and gentleman, in the following sentce I present to you evolution in all its glory: If enough of these mutations happen within a fruit fly population you can produce a new strain of fruit flies(that look different) that won't even be able to breed and produce offspring with the original fruit flies(wild type) but only with the new strain! Hence, a NEW SPECIES now exists. For mammals such as apes or whales etc. such changes are not as obvious(because we live on average 70-100 years and  produce a few offspring compared to fruit flies!) and the most remarkable or striking evidence of  change come from skeletons of early humans or for early whales(check out the evolution line for whales, its pretty amazing to know what anymal they evolved from).
By the way, fruit fly reaserch is IMMENSE today compared to 1909 and so is reaserch on other animals, so check out some papers or articles online about evolution in progress, evolution is a lot more complex than what I have explained here, I just gave you a run down of the basics. If you are wondering yes, there is an explenation of how and why mutations occur, but understanding these explenation will mean taking university biology, genetics and chemistry courses.

If you want an up to date example of evolution happening everyday(other than some guys' fruit flies in 1909) then let me tell you, it would be impossible to keep AIDS patiens alive today without knowing the theory of evolution. AIDS patients take alot of drugs wich help kill the AIDS virus, but the virus keeps adapting to drugs and ultimately becomes resistant to it, how? The virus EVOLVES!!! Lets say there is a certain virus living in your body, most of the viruses that are in your body are identical copies of one another and a few mutations(variations) of the same virus exist within that population. One drug may kill off a large population of the virus that exists in your body but might not kill, lets say 1%, of of the HIV virus. This 1% is resistand to a certain drug and thus replicates numerously and once again causes infection now we have a new population of the the HIV virus, but its resistand to one type of drug(and genetically different) so you can't use it anymore. If you try another drug, the same thing will happen, a small percentage of varients will survive and give rise to a new, drug resistand virus.

 Some people believe that evolution dictates superiority and inferiority different creatures. That is not true, according to evolution a human being is no more up the ladder than an elephant or a kangaroo, all three of these species are equally complex(biologically). The only thing that seperates us is that we are probably one of of the few species that can interact with each other, we have complex brain(allowing language, which gives us an advantage over other animals) and modify matter around us(Me..made...FIRE!)and we have a complex social structure. All in all, we are still animals, like it or not, you gotta eat, sleep, when its a hot day you will sweat, you have red blood running through your veins(hopefully) like other mammals and most importanly most of us will pass on our genes to propagate the human race, no matter what.
I read in an earlier post something that I find interesting. Anyone who proves that evolutionary theory if fundamentaly flawed, will DEFNINETELY win the nobel prize! If evolution if flawed, so is modern genetics, if thats flawed then so is basic chemistry, if thats flawed, so is modern physics, if thats flawed, so is mathematics!!

Evolution is also about natural selection, Hypothetically: If the earth was scorched today and if the seas would boil(for some reason), 99.999 percent of creatures would die, including all people, the only things left alive would be thermophiles(heat loving bacteria) and the would "win" the race to survival because they would survive to pass on their genes whereas the rest of us would be floating dust.  The modern evolutionary theory is complex, very complex and its based on facts, it is something that you have to study in University before you can comprehend(high school stuff, barely SCRATHCES the surface and in my opinion its inadequately taught in the class room, it should be taught more coherently so that student can understand what it is) you cant pass judgement on it based on preconceptions, modern medicine wouldn't be where it is today and ironically, without the theory of evolution most of you(I am sure) wouldn't be here debating!


Which University did you attend?
If you are familliar with the fruit fly experiment you would have noticied they are all still fruit flies.
Whether they can breed or not is irrelavant.Show me a fruit fly turn into a buttterfly and I will take you seriously.

Have you ever heard of Louis Pasteur ,the Father of modern medicine?
If one were to choose among the greatest benefactors of humanity, Louis Pasteur would certainly rank at the top. He solved the mysteries of rabies, anthrax, chicken cholera, and silkworm diseases, and contributed to the development of the first vaccines. He debunked the widely accepted myth of spontaneous generation, thereby setting the stage for modern biology and biochemistry. He described the scientific basis for fermentation, wine-making, and the brewing of beer. Pasteur's work gave birth to many branches of science, and he was singlehandedly responsible for some of the most important theoretical concepts and practical applications of modern science.
Pasteur's achievements seem wildly diverse at first glance, but a more in-depth look at the evolution of his career indicates that there is a logical order to his discoveries. He is revered for possessing the most important qualities of a scientist: the ability to survey all the known data and link the data for all possible hypotheses, the patience and drive to conduct experiments under strictly controlled conditions, and the brilliance to uncover the road to the solution from the results.

On the discipline of rigid and strict experimental tests he commented, "Imagination should give wings to our thoughts but we always need decisive experimental proof, and when the moment comes to draw conclusions and to interpret the gathered observations, imagination must be checked and documented by the factual results of the experiment."


He was a Creationist not an evolutionist. Your assertion that evolutionary theory is responsible for modern science is just mindless rhetoric.






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peddler
 


Posts: 242 | Posted: 12:11 AM on April 28, 2005 | IP
Demon38

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If you are familliar with the fruit fly experiment you would have noticied they are all still fruit flies.
Whether they can breed or not is irrelavant.Show me a fruit fly turn into a buttterfly and I will take you seriously.


You don't know what evolution is, do you...
The fruit fly experiments produce different species of fruit flies, that is evolution.  What you creationists fail to understand is that all there is to evolution is slight changes to an original population.  When enough slight changes manifest themselves, the ancestor population will be unable to breed with original population.  Evolution never says a fruit fly will give birth to a butterfly!  That's not how evolution works!

He was a Creationist not an evolutionist

No, like most french scientists of the time, Pasteur was an evolutionist, as evidenced by this quote:

"Virulence appears in a new light which cannot but be alarming to humanity; unless nature, in her evolution down the ages (an evolution which, as we now know, has been going on for millions, nay, hundreds of millions of years), has finally exhausted all the possibilities of producing virulent or contagious diseases -- which does not seem very likely."

And he believed in an old earth.  Better scheck your sources, they are completely wrong.

 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 01:48 AM on April 28, 2005 | IP
peddler8111

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Quote from Demon38 at 01:48 AM on April 28, 2005 :
You don't know what evolution is, do you...
The fruit fly experiments produce different species of fruit flies, that is evolution.  What you creationists fail to understand is that all there is to evolution is slight changes to an original population.  When enough slight changes manifest themselves, the ancestor population will be unable to breed with original population.  Evolution never says a fruit fly will give birth to a butterfly!  That's not how evolution works!


What on earth does not being able to breed have to do with the common ancestor fair tale?
After thousands of generations of fruit flies they ended up with all sorts of weird mutated flies that could not survive out side the lab.
Not one of them changed in to a different insect let alone something other than an insect.

The prediction was that this would happen. The fact it did not falsifies the theory and you say because some flies can't make baby flies together anymore that is evidence that we all have a common ancestor?

It is you who does not understand evolution. The scientist who did the experiments were disappointed , the religious/political
evolutionist convinced the gullible they were successful.

Please reference the 'quote" from Pasteur. Talk Origins would be my guess.


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Posts: 242 | Posted: 08:04 AM on May 2, 2005 | IP
Demon38

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What on earth does not being able to breed have to do with the common ancestor fair tale?

That's how evolution works!  That's how species form!  It's a basic tennet of the theory of evolution.  As I said before, you don't understand the theory of evolution!

After thousands of generations of fruit flies they ended up with all sorts of weird mutated flies that could not survive out side the lab.Not one of them changed in to a different insect let alone something other than an insect.

but NO scientist thought that this would happen!  No one working with fruit flies thought they would see them turn into another insect!  This is absolutely untrue, and I'll bet that you can't produce anything to back up this claim!  In fact, you haven't produced any data to back up ANY of your claims yet!

The prediction was that this would happen. The fact it did not falsifies the theory and you say because some flies can't make baby flies together anymore that is evidence that we all have a common ancestor?

Ha hahahahaaa!!!!  You can't be serious?!?!
Show evidence of one scientist predicted that they would show a fly evolving into another insect!  You don't understand evolution OR science!  The purpose of experimenting on fruit flies was to demonstrate evolution in action and they show that quite beautifully!
From here:
FruitFlies

"Dobzhansky had shown what was possible when scientists were willing to abandon their prejudices and break with tradition. His experiments with the fly brought about a sea change in evolutionary attitudes. Fruit fly genetics made evolution and the origin of species more credible to a once sceptical scientific community. Genetics not only tightened up Darwin's theory, it also turned evolutionary biology into a rigorous experimental science. Darwin would have given anything for a share of Dobzhansky's experimental spoils. Serves him right for looking at finches rather than flies."

Experiments with fruit flies were never ment to produce evidence for common ancestry either.
These experiments showed how inheritance works.

It is you who does not understandevolution. The scientist who did the experiments were disappointed , the religious/political evolutionist convinced the gullible they were successful.

Completely untrue, anything, anything at all to back this up?  Like I said, you make a lot of sweeping statements that are obviously false.
When asked to back them up you always ignore the request.

Please reference the 'quote" from Pasteur. Talk Origins would be my guess.

And, as usual, your guess is incorrect.  i found it here:Pasteur

And it originally comes from here:
Cuny, Hilaire. 1965. Louis Pasteur: the man and his theories.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 05:14 AM on May 3, 2005 | IP
    
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