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Demon38

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What is "spirit" anyway?  Since no one can give us any evidence of it, can we at least get a definition?
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 12:43 AM on January 8, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Hum...

That part of ourselves that doesn't... exist?

Seriously. I bet they would say that your spirit can't get wasted, no matter how much alcohol you drink.

Your spirit isn't affected by Alzheimer (i mean, if it's not even affected by death, what could Alzheimer do?).

The more you look into it, the more you realize it doesn't interact with... well... the world.

There's a little verb that sums up the concept of interacting with the world: to exist.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 8:33 PM on January 31, 2009 | IP
dubie903

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Quote from Demon38 at 12:43 AM on January 8, 2009 :
What is "spirit" anyway?  Since no one can give us any evidence of it, can we at least get a definition?

As we know I myself love to define words using webster's 1828 dictionary and here are just a few definitions of spirit according to Mr. Noah Webster:

"Spirit
SPIR'IT, n. [L. spiritus, from spiro, to breathe, to blow. The primary sense is to rush or drive.]

1. Primarily, wind; air in motion; hence, breath. All bodies have spirits and pneumatical parts within them. [This sense is now unusual.]

2. Animal excitement, or the effect of it; life; ardor; fire; courage; elevation or vehemence of mind. The troops attacked the enemy with great spirit. The young man has the spirit of youth. He speaks or act with spirit. Spirits, in the plural, is used in nearly a like sense. The troops began to recover their spirits.

3. Vigor of intellect; genius. His wit, his beauty and his spirit. The noblest spirit or genius cannot deserve enough of mankind to pretend to the esteem of heroic virtue.

4. Temper; disposition of mind, habitual or temporary; as a man of a generous spirit, or of a revengeful spirit; the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit. Let us go to the house of God in the spirit of prayer.

5. The soul of man; the intelligent, immaterial and immortal part of human beings. [See Soul.] the spirit shall return to God that gave it. Eceles. 12.

6. An immaterial intelligent substance. Spirit is a substance in which thinking, knowing, doubting, and a power of moving do subsist. Hence,

7. An immaterial intelligent being. By which he went and preached to the spirit in prison. I Pet. 3. God is a spirit. John 4."


Our spirit is our life that goes beyond our flesh, which is why it cannot be measured by material modes but is revealed in how we live.  Whatever we set our minds on and what ever we set our hearts to chase after is our spirit.  And it is our spirit that will be judged our motives and reasons for living.
(mkjv) Genesis 2:7  And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man was formed from dust, but it wasn't until God breathed spirit life into us that we became alive.

(mkjv) James 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When the spirit leaves our body our flesh of the earth becomes dead.



(Edited by dubie903 2/27/2009 at 5:51 PM).


-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 5:40 PM on February 27, 2009 | IP
fredguff

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dubie:Our spirit is our life that goes beyond our flesh, which is why it cannot be measured by material modes but is revealed in how we live.  Whatever we set our minds on and what ever we set our hearts to chase after is our spirit.  And it is our spirit that will be judged our motives and reasons for living.
(mkjv) Genesis 2:7  And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man was formed from dust, but it wasn't until God breathed spirit life into us that we became alive.

(mkjv) James 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When the spirit leaves our body our flesh of the earth becomes dead.


What about a zygote?  A zygote has no lungs so it obviously does not have the spirit of life "breathed" into it by god.   Is a zygote a human?

What about a "brain dead" human who is being kept alive on life support?  If a human on life support with a heavily damaged brain has shown no brain activity for  a week or more , do you believe the spirit has left it's body?
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 7:28 PM on February 27, 2009 | IP
waterboy

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You can argue with fundamentalists until you run out of breath.
Their lack of imagination is complemented by their propensity to believe the impossible.


-------
Charis kai Eirene
 


Posts: 218 | Posted: 7:36 PM on March 1, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Our spirit is our life that goes beyond our flesh, which is why it cannot be measured by material modes but is revealed in how we live.  Whatever we set our minds on and what ever we set our hearts to chase after is our spirit.  And it is our spirit that will be judged our motives and reasons for living.
Sounds like you could say pretty much the same about immaterial things like intellect (which is immaterial in essence, in spite of having material manifestations and a material understructure).

Any life is also immaterial, if understood as a process, which can have a beginning and an end and still be immaterial.

The human world of concepts is full with immaterial virtual items. Like, i don't know... The government.

The status of the spirit as an immaterial element isn't special. But 'spirit' is a lazy concept that can't be applied to anything. It has the most blurred boundaries.

You and your fellows at church can believe that you agree on what 'spirit' is, but when one starts asking questions, you begin to disagree.

Let's see:
Does a violent person have a violent spirit?

If the spirit doesn't stem from the body then you could say that it would be free from a genetic disposition to violence, or a brain condition that makes him secrete extra adrenalin. Right?

Your spirit doesn't get wasted no matter how much alcohol do you drink, right?

If the spirit is that part of yourself that has nothing to do with your genes, with your brain chemistry, with your general circumstances... Well, you're left with nothing.

On the other hand, i embrace the whole.
When i say i am my body, i'm not being materialist.

My body is part of my circumstances, just like the clothes i'm wearing, the illnesses i can have, the people i see... But if i take away all of my circumstances, i am nothing.

I am my circumstances. I am the people i see. I am my world.
That's how i'm not a materialist. The biggest part of my world is not material (and, in a sense, no part of it really is).



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 06:28 AM on March 2, 2009 | IP
wisp

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To the topic:
Jesus was also supposed to have taken care of Satan long ago.

Rom 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen

What, will you say that "shortly" for God could mean some millennia?


Edit:
Also, Jesus was supposed to come back long ago.
Rev 22:12
And, behold, I
(Jesus) come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


What, will yo say that he suffered from premature ejaculation?


(Edited by wisp 3/2/2009 at 2:35 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 2:30 PM on March 2, 2009 | IP
fredguff

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wisp:
To the topic:
Jesus was also supposed to have taken care of Satan long ago.
Rom 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen
What, will you say that "shortly" for God could mean some millennia?


What is the purpose of Satan anyway?  Aside from the fact that an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would not create him in first place, why does the omnibenevolent, omnipotent god of Christian literalists let him continue his evil ways?


 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 3:57 PM on March 2, 2009 | IP
orion

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Beats me.  None of it makes any sense to me.

And yet, when you look at the political arena, it would be suicidal for a politician to confess that he/she were an atheist in today's society.  And how often do you hear the President end a speech with '... and God bless America.'

It drives me crazy to hear that.  As if there was something that makes America more deserving.  Now don't get me wrong, I love my country.  I consider myself patriotic.  But sometimes I do wish we could leave God out of it and take responsibility for our country's destiny ourselves without bringing God into it.  But I guess that would be just too much to hope for in my life time.
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 5:47 PM on March 2, 2009 | IP
fredguff

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orion: It drives me crazy to hear that.  As if there was something that makes America more deserving.  Now don't get me wrong, I love my country.  I consider myself patriotic.  But sometimes I do wish we could leave God out of it and take responsibility for our country's destiny ourselves without bringing God into it.  But I guess that would be just too much to hope for in my life time.


How about when athletes thank their Lord and Savior after winning competitions?  Like Jesus really wanted Kurt Warner and the Cardinals to beat the Eagles.   I can see Jesus calling his bookie at a bar...
"Hey quiet down everyone I'm on the phone!--I'll get to the Sudan in  a minute...Ok, Put a nickle on the 'over' and a dime on the Cardinals...Wait a minute...Are they still getting 4.5?"

 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 6:52 PM on March 2, 2009 | IP
waterboy

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Dube

Our spirit is our life that goes beyond our flesh, which is why it cannot be measured by material modes but is revealed in how we live.  Whatever we set our minds on and what ever we set our hearts to chase after is our spirit.  And it is our spirit that will be judged our motives and reasons for living.


Metaphysical dualism belongs to classical greek philosophy. It found its way into Christian theology. There are even parts of the NT which seem to use the language of greek philosophy. Jesus, however, did not teach it. Jesus' use of the word pneuma 'spirit' is more closely related the the Hebrew notion of breath of life.

There is no explicit claim in the NT that a disembodied spirit will persist as a real entity after the death of the body.

Resurrection IS resurrection of the body. That is Christian orthodoxy. If you 'believe' anything else then your beliefs cannot properly be called Christian.

Perhaps it would be better to say that spirit is that which is not determined by the flesh rather than that it is something other than the physical body.





-------
Charis kai Eirene
 


Posts: 218 | Posted: 02:16 AM on March 3, 2009 | IP
dubie903

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Quote from waterboy at 02:16 AM on March 3, 2009 :

Metaphysical dualism belongs to classical greek philosophy. It found its way into Christian theology. There are even parts of the NT which seem to use the language of greek philosophy. Jesus, however, did not teach it. Jesus' use of the word pneuma 'spirit' is more closely related the the Hebrew notion of breath of life.

There is no explicit claim in the NT that a disembodied spirit will persist as a real entity after the death of the body.

Resurrection IS resurrection of the body. That is Christian orthodoxy. If you 'believe' anything else then your beliefs cannot properly be called Christian.

Perhaps it would be better to say that spirit is that which is not determined by the flesh rather than that it is something other than the physical body.






Mr. Waterboy I must correct you sir.  Jesus Christ in Luke 16:19-31 teaches us that there is a dwelling place of the spirit after our death, and we are carried away immediatley to this dwelling place.  

Luk 16:19-31
(19)  There was a certain rich man who was customarily clothed in purple and fine linen and making merry in luxury every day.
(20)  And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who was laid at his gate, full of sores
(21)  and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. But even the dogs came and licked his sores.
(22)  And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.
(23)  And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24)  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
(25)  But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted and you are tormented.
(26)  And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there.
(27)  And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
(28)  for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(29)  Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them.
(30)  And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.
(31)  And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.


What is very unique about this account of the rich man and Lazarus is that this is the only time there is a name given to one of the characters in the parable, raising the thought that this might be no parable at all, but a real event.  I also want to draw your attention to vv. 27,28 where the rich man in torment is concerned about his father and brothers who are still alive on earth.  How can this be unless the rich man immediately was in hell.

Also in Luke 23:43 Jesus tells the theif next to Him on the cross "today you will be with Me in 'Paradise'", notice the word "today".

The apostle Paul states in 2 Corinthians 5:8 that being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.   In Philippians 1:23 the apostle Paul also had a desire to "depart and be with Christ".

Mr. Waterboy sir.  What you presented as New Testament theolgy is inaccurate, and very well un-biblical.  It is not the teaching of Christ that you presented but more something along the lines of what a Jehovah's Witness would present.  

Ressurection of the body according to 1 Thessalonians 4 is Christ not only bringing those who have already died, back to earth and ressurecting their earthly flesh and reuniting a glorified flesh with the spirit.  But also transforming those who are still alive on earth to a glorified eternal body.

(Edited by dubie903 3/4/2009 at 8:20 PM).


-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 8:18 PM on March 4, 2009 | IP
waterboy

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Dube

Lk 16:19-31 IS a parable. Codex Bezae makes that quite explicit. None of your quotes require any separation of Spirit from  body and 1Thess 4 says nothing of the sort.
Your INTERPRETATION of all these passages is coloured by an obviously conservative, evangelical predisposition which I do not share.

This parable bears striking resemblance to various extra-biblical stories. In particular the first part parallels an Egyptian Folktale (Si-Osiris). See also the Tale of Bar Ma'yan for a similar rabbinic variant of the Eqyptian story. Jesus may have been familiar with these stories but equally, given that this was a familiar story at the time, it could have beeen drawn from other sources. It fits into the text only awkwardly and there is clear evidence of Lucan redaction whatever the source. Its attribution to Jesus is not certain.

At any rate it IS a parable and therefore I would conclude that the story is NOT to be taken literally.

Aside..  Your translation is quite colourful in parts. What is it?



(Edited by waterboy 3/5/2009 at 02:35 AM).


-------
Charis kai Eirene
 


Posts: 218 | Posted: 02:09 AM on March 5, 2009 | IP
wisp

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dubie903
Also in Luke 23:43 Jesus tells the theif next to Him on the cross "today you will be with Me in 'Paradise'", notice the word "today".
Did Jesus go to Paradise that day??

I thought he went the other way... And that he went to paradise only after his resurrection...



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 03:35 AM on March 5, 2009 | IP
wisp

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dubie, you didn't respond to my questions.

Wasn't Jesus supposed to come back earlier, and taken care of the Devil?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 03:37 AM on March 5, 2009 | IP
fredguff

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waterboy: Aside..  Your translation is quite colourful in parts. What is it?


I think  he got it from the Modern King James Version.

http://www.thewordnotes.com/mkjv/luke.htm#16


 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 11:25 AM on March 5, 2009 | IP
waterboy

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"Modern King James Version"???
Isnt that a contradiction of terms?

I suppose you could call a 1962 re-hash of the KJV "modern" ....  if you lived in a space-time warp.
For my part...  the KJV is next best to useless as a translation, however important its historical place in the history of the English language might be BUT given that its real value IS its contribution to English then "modernising" it would seem a pretty pointless exercise.



(Edited by waterboy 3/5/2009 at 6:00 PM).


-------
Charis kai Eirene
 


Posts: 218 | Posted: 5:58 PM on March 5, 2009 | IP
fredguff

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Waterboy: "Modern King James Version"???
Isnt that a contradiction of terms?

I suppose you could call a 1962 re-hash of the KJV "modern" ....  if you lived in a space-time warp.
For my part...  the KJV is next best to useless as a translation, however important its historical place in the history of the English language might be BUT given that its real value IS its contribution to English then "modernising" it would seem a pretty pointless exercise.


Amen Waterboy.  It wasn't until this latest "exercise" that I realized that the Modern KJV wasn't the same as the New KJV.
It would be nice if timbrx, gluteus and dubie could each explain the process they used to choose their particular bible translation.
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 7:50 PM on March 5, 2009 | IP
dubie903

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Quote from wisp at 03:35 AM on March 5, 2009 :
dubie903
Also in Luke 23:43 Jesus tells the theif next to Him on the cross "today you will be with Me in 'Paradise'", notice the word "today".
Did Jesus go to Paradise that day??

I thought he went the other way... And that he went to paradise only after his resurrection...



John 3:13 MKJV
(13)  And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

The words of Christ here explicitly reveal that Christ being one with God and as God, is omnipresent.  Only God can be at all places at one time and here Christ is revealing that He is not only on earth but also in heaven.

Quote from wisp at 2:30 PM on March 2, 2009 :
To the topic:
Jesus was also supposed to have taken care of Satan long ago.

Rom 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen

What, will you say that "shortly" for God could mean some millennia?


Edit:
Also, Jesus was supposed to come back long ago.
Rev 22:12
And, behold, I
(Jesus) come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[color=teal]



2 Peter 3:8-10 MKJV
(8)  But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(9)  The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(10)  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.


Wisp I guarantee you that Christ will be back and God will deal with Satan as He promises in His word.

Revelation 20:10 MKJV
(10)  And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


(Edited by dubie903 3/5/2009 at 8:44 PM).


-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 8:34 PM on March 5, 2009 | IP
waterboy

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John 3:13 MKJV
DUBIE...   (13)  And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

The words of Christ here explicitly reveal that Christ being one with God and as God, is omnipresent.  Only God can be at all places at one time and here Christ is revealing that He is not only on earth but also in heaven


How can you possibly infer from this text that Christ is either divine or omnipresent?

This text would work equally well (better actually) as a proof-text that Christ was not omnipresent since He has to 'come down' in the first place and 'go up' eventually... let alone going down and coming back up from there and so and so on. And if not omnipresent then how possibly one with an omnipresent God.



And another question... if Christ is one with God then how could Christ feel, as He did on the cross, forsaken by God?

Aside...  Why do you use the MKJV when there are so many better translations around? Actually, if the Scriptures are so important to you why dont you learn Greek and use the manuscripts as so many of them are now available on-line?


-------
Charis kai Eirene
 


Posts: 218 | Posted: 10:36 PM on March 5, 2009 | IP
wisp

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dubie903
John 3:13 MKJV
(13)  And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

The words of Christ here explicitly reveal that Christ being one with God and as God, is omnipresent.
If it does, you can't say that it's explicit.

I actually like the concept of a Christ, as an emanation of God. I don't believe that Jesus (being as cool as he was) is that. No more than any of us is. But it's a cool concept anyway.

So you're saying that he meant that the burglars would be with the virtual Heaven dwelling version of himself that day?

Only God can be at all places at one time and here Christ is revealing that He is not only on earth but also in heaven.
Now that i think about it... He said that the burglars would be with him in Heaven, but your versicle says that nobody has ascended to Heaven but him...
Don't we have a contradiction here?

2 Peter 3:8-10 MKJV
(8)  But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Ok, then the act of creation lasted for 6,000 years, and since then 2,190,000,000 years have passed. Right?

(9)  The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Ok, then why say he would be quick? There was no need.

Does that verse imply that the longer it takes the more repentants will He find? If that's the case, it sounds like the best course of action would be to wait forever.

(10)  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.
But He said he wouldn't do the mass murder thing again! And that promise is rainbow-guaranteed!

Or was He talking just about water?

If that's the case, what's the big deal about that promise?

Wisp I guarantee you that Christ will be back and God will deal with Satan as He promises in His word.
Can you give us some deadline? Some date after which you'll stop believing if Christ fails to come back? Or this can go on forever?

I don't believe in creation. I don't believe that Jesus was more godly than Buddha. I don't buy Mary's virginity. I don't believe in the ark, or the tower of Babel. I don't eat pork or shellfish, but because i'm a vegetarian and not because the Bible says so. I donate blood. I don't believe Jesus died and resurrected. I have used long hair in the past. I use clothes made from mixed materials. I have homosexual friends, and i encourage them to stop hiding it from anyone. I have learned cool stuff from Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism.

But i like Jesus. He's cool, and taught some interesting things. I can't bring myself to stop providing for the future, but i admire those who can. I love people and i don't wish for myself anything (essentially) that i don't wish for everybody else.

Is that enough for me to go to Heaven, or am i headed the other way?

Can i go to Hell because of what i believe? My beliefs are honest. I don't believe like i do to contradict God or anyone.


Edit:
If i have to believe that Jesus was the Christ, or go to Hell, and before Jesus being a good person was enough (people say i'm a good person, i don't know) to be saved, then Jesus did more harm than good to me and people like me.

Why did He do things that are hard to believe? What was the need?? Just to send skeptics to Hell???


(Edited by wisp 3/6/2009 at 11:46 AM).


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Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 | IP
dubie903

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Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :
Now that i think about it... He said that the burglars would be with him in Heaven, but your versicle says that nobody has ascended to Heaven but him...
Don't we have a contradiction here?


John 3:12-13 MKJV
(12)  If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
(13)  And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

No we do not have a contradiction.
(v.13 And no one has ascended up to Heaven...) Christ is stating that nobody has ever gone into Heaven and returned to talk about Heavenly things.  There were never any special revelations brought down from Heaven by any other man at that point.  The bible is clear that Enoch (Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11) were taken into Heaven.  But they did not return to tell mankind of heavenly things.  

(v.13...except He who came down from Heaven,...) Here Christ reavels that He is from Heaven.  Christ came down from Heaven in bodily form, or in the form of a man.  He came down with the fullness of God, in the form of flesh and blood, or as a man (Colossians 2:9 MKJV (9)  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.)

(v.13...the Son of Man who is in Heaven.)  Even though Christ was on Earth in bodily form, with the fullness of God, He was also still in Heaven.

Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

2 Peter 3:8-10 MKJV
(8)  But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Ok, then the act of creation lasted for 6,000 years, and since then 2,190,000,000 years have passed. Right?


No the act of creation did not take 6,000 years.  The act of creation took six morning and evening days (Genesis 1:5... And the evening and the morning were the first day.) .  Six 24 hour long days.  In regards to the promise though, which this passage is in reference to, God is not slack, slow or even behind schedule.  This passage has nothing to do with the account of creation.  It is to give the believer hope when they are facing an onslaught of attack by skeptics who say "Where is Jesus, He was supposed to be back long ago?".  God is not slow concerning His promise.  It is sure to happen and will not fail.  And it will happen at a time when the "world" least expects it.


Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

(9)  The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Ok, then why say he would be quick? There was no need.

Does that verse imply that the longer it takes the more repentants will He find? If that's the case, it sounds like the best course of action would be to wait forever.
 

Genesis 6:5 MKJV
(5)  And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Man will just continue to grow in evil and wickedness, up to the point that God finally deals with it permanently.  The longer it takes the more man grows in wickedness, not that our wickedness reveals that God is wrong in the creation of man, but our wickedness and God's judgement on it will reveal the true justice of God.



Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

(10)  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.
But He said he wouldn't do the mass murder thing again! And that promise is rainbow-guaranteed!

Or was He talking just about water?


God promised not to flood the earth as a means of destruction again.  The rainbow promises against a global flood.  God will again bring judgement on the Earth, but it will be with Fire.


Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

Wisp I guarantee you that Christ will be back and God will deal with Satan as He promises in His word.
Can you give us some deadline? Some date after which you'll stop believing if Christ fails to come back? Or this can go on forever?


Mark 13:32-33 MKJV
(32)  But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.
(33)  Take heed, watch and pray, for you do not know when the time is.

Mark 13:37 MKJV
(37)  And what I say to you, I say to all. Watch.

Acts 1:7 MKJV
(7)  And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.

2 Peter 3:3-7 MKJV
(3)  First, knowing this, that there will come in the last days scoffers walking according to their own lusts
(4)  and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.
(5)  For this is hidden from them by their willing it, that the heavens were of old, and the earth out of the water, and through water, being held together by the Word of God,
(6)  through which the world that then was, being flooded by water, perished.
(7)  But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same Word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


Jesus Christ will return.





(Edited by dubie903 3/6/2009 at 6:02 PM).


-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 5:54 PM on March 6, 2009 | IP
orion

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dubie -

God will again bring judgement on the Earth, but it will be with Fire.


Well, I guess the Bible got that right, in a way.  In the distant future, iin excess of 1 billion years, the sun will be turning into a red giant as it uses up its hydrogen fuel - eventually engulfing the earth.


 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 6:30 PM on March 6, 2009 | IP
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Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

I don't believe in creation.


Believe it or not, it is true.

Genesis 1:1 MKJV
(1)  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


Colossians 1:16-17 MKJV
(16)  For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
(17)  And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.


Ephesians 3:9 MKJV
(9)  and to bring to light what is the fellowship of the mystery which from eternity has been hidden in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ;

Revelation 4:11 MKJV
(11)  O Lord, You are worthy to receive glory and honor and power, because You created all things, and for Your will they are and were created.

Revelation 10:6 MKJV
(6)  and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time.


Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

I don't believe that Jesus was more godly than Buddha.


John 1:1-3 MKJV
(1)  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2)  He was in the beginning with God.
(3)  All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14 MKJV
(14)  And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.

Jesus Christ was with God as God and became flesh.

John 5:17-18 MKJV
(17)  But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
(18)  Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.

Jesus Christ claimed equality with God by calling Him His Father.

John 8:24 MKJV
(24)  Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

John 8:24 MKJV
(24)  Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

Jesus Christ calls Himself the I AM, which is God's self existent title.  All who do not believe that Jesus Christ is God will die in their sins.

Philippians 2:5-7 MKJV
(5)  For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
(6)  who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
(7)  but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.


Jesus Christ was God, yet humbled Himself to great depths by becoming a Man



Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

I don't buy Mary's virginity.


Matthew 1:23 MKJV
(23)  "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.

Mary was a virgin at the time she carried Jesus.  After she was married though she did not remain a virgin because Jesus did have brothers, or better yet, half-brothers  (Matthew 13:55 MKJV
(55)  Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brothers, James and Joses and Simon and Judas,).

Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

I don't believe in the ark,



Believe it or not, it is true.
Genesis 6:13-14 MKJV
(13)  And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. And, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
(14)  Make an ark of cyprus timbers. You shall make rooms in the ark. And you shall pitch it inside and outside with pitch.



Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

or the tower of Babel.


Genesis 11:1-9
Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

I don't eat pork or shellfish, but because i'm a vegetarian and not because the Bible says so.


Dietary restrictions, considering types of animals eaten, are not under the new covenant.


Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

I donate blood.


I have also and see no problem with it.


Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

I don't believe Jesus died and resurrected.


Romans 14:9 MKJV
(9)  For this Christ both died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and living.



Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

I have used long hair in the past. I use clothes made from mixed materials.


Same here and there are no restrictions against such practices in the new covenant.


Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

I have homosexual friends, and i encourage them to stop hiding it from anyone.


I have homosexual relatives, and know homosexuals and encourage them to stop.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 MKJV
(9)  Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
(10)  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

I have learned cool stuff from Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism.


False religion can teach nothing to the Truth.  A lie cannot correct the Truth.


Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

But i like Jesus. He's cool, and taught some interesting things. I can't bring myself to stop providing for the future, but i admire those who can. I love people and i don't wish for myself anything (essentially) that i don't wish for everybody else.

Is that enough for me to go to Heaven, or am i headed the other way?

Can i go to Hell because of what i believe? My beliefs are honest. I don't believe like i do to contradict God or anyone.


Unrepentent sinners are going to hell because of their sins.  They are guilty of violating God's moral standard.  Jesus Christ is the only way to make yourself right before God.  It is because of your sins that you are going to hell.



Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :

Edit:
If i have to believe that Jesus was the Christ, or go to Hell, and before Jesus being a good person was enough (people say i'm a good person, i don't know) to be saved, then Jesus did more harm than good to me and people like me.


1 Timothy 1:15 MKJV
(15)  Faithful is the Word and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.



Quote from wisp at 11:42 AM on March 6, 2009 :



Why did He do things that are hard to believe? What was the need?? Just to send skeptics to Hell???


(Edited by wisp 3/6/2009 at 11:46 AM).



2 Corinthians 4:3-4 MKJV
(3)  But also if our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those being lost,
(4)  in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.





-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 8:10 PM on March 6, 2009 | IP
waterboy

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Matthew 1:23 MKJV
(23)  "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.


Dube... you've done it again!
Matthew 1:23
 
Idou he parthenos en gastoi hexai...


he parthenos  translates "Young (nubile) woman, unmarried". It admits of a range of possible meanings all with the sense of a young but mature woman of marriagable age combining the beauty of youth with maturity.

Virgin is not an ideal translation. Over the full range of possible meanings virgin is a possible implication (though not necessary) BUT it is certainly NOT the primary sense of the word. Again, your MKJV is projecting conservative Christian dogma back into the text to produce a misleading, dare I say deceitful, INTERPRETATION of S rather than a faithful TRANSLATION.
 





(Edited by waterboy 3/7/2009 at 02:45 AM).


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Charis kai Eirene
 


Posts: 218 | Posted: 02:34 AM on March 7, 2009 | IP
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Quote from waterboy at 02:34 AM on March 7, 2009 :
Matthew 1:23 MKJV
(23)  "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.


Dube... you've done it again!
Matthew 1:23
 
Idou he parthenos en gastoi hexai...


he parthenos  translates "Young (nubile) woman, unmarried". It admits of a range of possible meanings all with the sense of a young but mature woman of marriagable age combining the beauty of youth with maturity.

Virgin is not an ideal translation. Over the full range of possible meanings virgin is a possible implication (though not necessary) BUT it is certainly NOT the primary sense of the word. Again, your MKJV is projecting conservative Christian dogma back into the text to produce a misleading, dare I say deceitful, INTERPRETATION of S rather than a faithful TRANSLATION.
 





(Edited by waterboy 3/7/2009 at 02:45 AM).


This is a prophecy taken from Isaiah 7:14


Isaiah 7:14 MKJV
(14)  So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14 LITV
(14)  So, The Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold! The virgin will conceive and will bring forth a son; and she shall call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14 ASV
(14)  Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14 NASB
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14 Geneva
(14)  Therefore the Lorde himselfe will giue you a signe. Beholde, the virgine shall conceiue and beare a sonne, and she shal call his name Immanu-el.

Isaiah 7:14 YLT
(14)  Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,

Isaiah 7:14 JPS
(14)  Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(Yes I am aware that the Jewish publication society renders it young woman, but that does not mean the translation is also meant to imply virgin.)

Isaiah 7:14 Amplified
Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, the young woman who is unmarried {and} a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [God with us].



The Hebrew word used in Isaiah is almah:

‛almâh
al-maw'
Feminine of H5958; a lass (as veiled or private): - damsel, maid, virgin.

It is the same Hebrew word used in the Hebrew New Testament translation of Matthew 1:23.

The Greek word used is very well as you have stated parthenos:

parthenos
par-then'-os
Of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter: - virgin.

It is the only Greek word that I have found used for virgin in the New testament.  It is used 13 times I have found though out the New testament including its clear usage of virgin in Revelation 14:4 (Revelation 14:4 MKJV (4)  These are those who were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, as a firstfruit to God and to the Lamb.)


Going further Mary clearly states to the angel that she does not "know a man" (Luke 1:34 MKJV (34)  Then Mary said to the angel, How shall this be, since I do not know a man?) which is an euphemism.  She delicately states that she has never been with a man in a manner that would produce a child.  Mary was a virgin at the time Jesus was conceived.







(Edited by dubie903 3/7/2009 at 08:24 AM).


-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 08:14 AM on March 7, 2009 | IP
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Dube

Same problem with almah only worse, virgin is not a direct translation but an interpretation that suits certain Christian dogma. The only possible way to translate that as virgin would be as a reference to a Goddess from one of the astral religions.

In Is 7:14  almah probably has the same sense as almah in Prov 30:19 which even the KJV translates maid.

Here the problem is a complete misunderstanding of the nature of prophecy and the role of prophet. Prophets spoke of the consequences of disobedience and the hope that Yhwh offered.  They did not predict the future like fortune tellers.

The hope of which Is speaks is the hope of return to Jerusalem for the Hebrew people  in exile.  So unless you are claiming that Jesus liberated the Jews from Babylon (some time around 500BCE)...



(Edited by waterboy 3/7/2009 at 09:34 AM).


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Charis kai Eirene
 


Posts: 218 | Posted: 09:30 AM on March 7, 2009 | IP
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Quote from waterboy at 09:30 AM on March 7, 2009 :

Here the problem is a complete misunderstanding of the nature of prophecy and the role of prophet. Prophets spoke of the consequences of disobedience and the hope that Yhwh offered.  They did not predict the future like fortune tellers.

The hope of which Is speaks is the hope of return to Jerusalem for the Hebrew people  in exile.  So unless you are claiming that Jesus liberated the Jews from Babylon (some time around 500BCE)...



(Edited by waterboy 3/7/2009 at 09:34 AM).


Revelation 19:10 MKJV
(10)  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See, do not do it! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

John 5:39 MKJV
(39)  You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,


The entire nature of prophecy as God has revealed it to be is to point to Christ.

The Law, the Minor and Major prophets, the History of Israel as recorded in the Old Testament, all points to Christ.  The Exodus the Tabernacle, the Temple, the Holy of Holies, the passover, all the ceremonies all point to Christ.  The New Testament, the Gospels, The Early Church, The letters, The final Revelation all points to Christ.  The entire Bible points to Christ.  God has revealed Christ as the only salvation for mankind.


Acts 4:10-12 MKJV
(10)  be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in this name does this man stand before you whole.
(11)  This is the Stone which you builders have counted worthless, and He has become the Head of the Corner.
(12)  And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.


Isaiah is speaking of Christ.

Acts 8:27-35 MKJV
(27)  And he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasure and had come to Jerusalem to worship,
(28)  was returning. And sitting in his chariot he read Isaiah the prophet.
(29)  Then the Spirit said to Philip, Go near and join yourself to this chariot.
--->(30)  And Philip ran there to him and heard him read the prophet Isaiah, and said, Do you indeed understand what you are reading?
(31)  And he said, How can I unless some man should guide me? And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.
(32)  And the content of the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter, and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so He opened not His mouth.
(33)  In His humiliation His judgment was taken away, and who shall declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth."
--->(34)  And the eunuch answered Philip and said, I beg you, of whom does the prophet speak this? Of himself or of some other man?
--->(35)  Then Philip opened his mouth and began at the same Scripture and preached the gospel of Jesus to him.


The Old testament tells of the first coming of Christ.  The New testament tells of the second coming of Christ.  This is not fortune telling.  This is Gods plan of salvation for man.  He is going to judge the world and the one appointed to judge the world is Christ Himself.  Christ came as God promised in the Old testament and Christ is coming again as He promises in the New testament.  He has laid it out in scripture and all of it is sure to come to pass.





(Edited by dubie903 3/7/2009 at 10:07 AM).


-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 09:56 AM on March 7, 2009 | IP
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John 3:12-13 MKJV
(12)  If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
(13)  And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
Hum...
No we do not have a contradiction.
(v.13 And no one has ascended up to Heaven...) Christ is stating that nobody has ever gone into Heaven and returned to talk about Heavenly things.
After saying that nobody has has ascended but himself, and i distinctly see a period... But ok, since it's right after a passage about telling things, let's say that it's not too farfetched.

(v.13...except He who came down from Heaven,...) Here Christ reavels that He is from Heaven.  Christ came down from Heaven in bodily form, or in the form of a man.  He came down with the fullness of God, in the form of flesh and blood, or as a man (Colossians 2:9 MKJV (9)  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.)
Kinda off topic, but ok.

(v.13...the Son of Man who is in Heaven.)  Even though Christ was on Earth in bodily form, with the fullness of God, He was also still in Heaven.
Interesting.

In regards to the promise though, which this passage is in reference to, God is not slack, slow or even behind schedule.
That's what's good about having a secret schedule. That nobody can tell you you're behind schedule.

This passage has nothing to do with the account of creation.  It is to give the believer hope when they are facing an onslaught of attack by skeptics who say "Where is Jesus, He was supposed to be back long ago?".
I'm not attacking you, dubie. I honestly wish you all the best. I just have a hard time believing that christianism can be the best for some people...

God is not slow concerning His promise.
Kinda depends on your definition of 'slow'. 2k years is slow to me.
It is sure to happen and will not fail.
That's not the issue. 10k years from now christians might be still saying the same thing.
Time is the issue.

And it will happen at a time when the "world" least expects it.
I can't expect it less than right now. Because i don't expect it at all. So expecting it less would be a psychological impossibility for me.

But you're not talking about me, but about the world... Ok... The world will least expect it when there are no christians left. That's when.

Man will just continue to grow in evil and wickedness,
I don't believe in 'evil'. But i do believe that, under the current circumstances, solidarity and compassion have stopped being evolutionary assets. So we're losing them. I'm very afraid of that.
up to the point that God finally deals with it permanently.
Why wait?
The longer it takes the more man grows in wickedness, not that our wickedness reveals that God is wrong in the creation of man, but our wickedness and God's judgement on it will reveal the true justice of God.
So he wants to send to Hell the highest possible number of humans, right?

You say that we can't judge Him, but you keep depicting Him as a prick.

Or the Bible does, but you cite it.

God promised not to flood the earth as a means of destruction again.  The rainbow promises against a global flood.  God will again bring judgement on the Earth, but it will be with Fire.
Yeah... I read it again, and it's true. It says He won't kill us by water. Gee, thanks!

It doesn't seem worthy of mention (let alone naming it 'covenant', and sealing the deal with a rainbow).


Mark 13:32-33 MKJV
(32)  But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.
How convenient.
(33)  Take heed, watch and pray, for you do not know when the time is.
What do i care?

Whether it happens within your lifetime or not, it doesn't make a difference to the benefits (or their lack) of praying. For if you die you will be resurrected to face your trial. Right?

Mark 13:37 MKJV
(37)  And what I say to you, I say to all. Watch.
Where should i watch? The skies?

Acts 1:7 MKJV
(7)  And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.
Oh, the classic "Shut up don't ask"...

Jesus Christ will return.
Since nobody knows, can that be in a million years?

I don't believe in creation.
Believe it or not, it is true.

Genesis 1:1 MKJV
(1)  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


Colossians 1:16-17 MKJV
(16)  For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
(17)  And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

Ephesians 3:9 MKJV
(9)  and to bring to light what is the fellowship of the mystery which from eternity has been hidden in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ;

Revelation 4:11 MKJV
(11)  O Lord, You are worthy to receive glory and honor and power, because You created all things, and for Your will they are and were created.

Revelation 10:6 MKJV
(6)  and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time.
Yeeeah... Here's the thing: i don't believe in the Bible either.

Please, don't quote passages from the Bible saying the Bible is right!

I too can make a book that says it's the truth.

Jesus Christ claimed equality with God by calling Him His Father.
Thus starting the tradition of the unsupported claim.

John 8:24 MKJV
(24)  Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

Jesus Christ calls Himself the I AM, which is God's self existent title.  All who do not believe that Jesus Christ is God will die in their sins.
What does 'die in their sins' mean?

Do i sin? How could i know?

Jesus Christ was God, yet humbled Himself to great depths by becoming a Man
Why?

Matthew 1:23 MKJV
(23)  "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.
Do you expect me to say "Oh, i buy it now!"?

I don't buy those lies. Sorry. Besides the translation is farfetched. No reason to assume that it says 'virgin'. It doesn't.

Mary was a virgin at the time she carried Jesus.  After she was married though she did not remain a virgin because Jesus did have brothers, or better yet, half-brothers  (Matthew 13:55 MKJV
(55)  Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brothers, James and Joses and Simon and Judas,).
I've been told that the word used here for 'brothers' is the same one used to say 'friends', and that Mary remained a virgin for ever (bad deal for the carpenter).

But i don't care much. I'll never buy it.

In response to my 'I don't believe in the ark' statement, you say
Believe it or not, it is true.
and start quoting passages from the Bible. What for? I already know what the Bible says.

(14)  Make an ark of cyprus timbers. You shall make rooms in the ark. And you shall pitch it inside and outside with pitch.
How did he get the pitch? It's a derivate from oil and coal, and creationism says that those were produced after the flood.

Dietary restrictions, considering types of animals eaten, are not under the new covenant.
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.  Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”-Matthew 5:18-19 RSV

So? The old rules apply.

I have used long hair in the past. I use clothes made from mixed materials.
Same here and there are no restrictions against such practices in the new covenant.
Same here, Matthew 5:18.

I have homosexual friends, and i encourage them to stop hiding it from anyone.
I have homosexual relatives, and know homosexuals and encourage them to stop.
WHY??? Because of the new covenant, or because of the old one???

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 MKJV
(9)  Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
(10)  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
You think Jesus believed that? What's your basis?

I have learned cool stuff from Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism.
False religion can teach nothing to the Truth.  A lie cannot correct the Truth.
False religion? Hinduism is a true religion. What do you mean?

But i like Jesus. He's cool, and taught some interesting things. I can't bring myself to stop providing for the future, but i admire those who can. I love people and i don't wish for myself anything (essentially) that i don't wish for everybody else.

Is that enough for me to go to Heaven, or am i headed the other way?

Can i go to Hell because of what i believe? My beliefs are honest. I don't believe like i do to contradict God or anyone.
Unrepentent sinners are going to hell because of their sins.
Is that supposed to be an answer?
They are guilty of violating God's moral standard.
God condones raping and slavery. So much for standards.
Jesus Christ is the only way to make yourself right before God.
Then why would He make such a silly system?

I don't even get the system. What are you supposed to do to be saved?

It is because of your sins that you are going to hell.
What sins? What is a sin?

Does it please you that i'm going to Hell? I wish the best for you. I wish the best for everyone. I recycle. I give blood. I help people. And your God makes a system to send people like me to Hell.

If i have to believe that Jesus was the Christ, or go to Hell, and before Jesus being a good person was enough (people say i'm a good person, i don't know) to be saved, then Jesus did more harm than good to me and people like me.
1 Timothy 1:15 MKJV
(15)  Faithful is the Word and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Huh????

Do you have some random Bible quoting program that misfired?

Why did He do things that are hard to believe? What was the need?? Just to send skeptics to Hell???
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 MKJV
(3)  But also if our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those being lost,
Am i lost?
(4)  in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones,
SO HE DID IT!!!! THAT PRICK!!! AND THEN HE WANTS TO BLAME ME???
so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.
What a douche bag!

Are you ok with this system?

Even if i was somehow saved, i would reject it. Shove your salvation up your ass, prick! I'm going to Hell with the rest of your victims!

Why would you adore such an evil character?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:31 AM on March 7, 2009 | IP
waterboy

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The entire nature of prophecy as God has revealed it to be is to point to Christ.

The Law, the Minor and Major prophets, the History of Israel as recorded in the Old Testament, all points to Christ.  The Exodus the Tabernacle, the Temple, the Holy of Holies, the passover, all the ceremonies all point to Christ.  The New Testament, the Gospels, The Early Church, The letters, The final Revelation all points to Christ.  The entire Bible points to Christ.  God has revealed Christ as the only salvation for mankind.


Now you've gone way too far. There are the beginnings of Messianic expectations in some of the later prophets and apocalyptic literature. They are NOT explicit predictions for Christ but particular expressions of hope involving a new Davidic figure restoring the fortunes of Israel. Jesus did NOT fulfil these expectations.

Reading Christ into the apocalyptic literature is akin to reading the I Ching. The text can say just about anything you want it to say.





-------
Charis kai Eirene
 


Posts: 218 | Posted: 7:48 PM on March 7, 2009 | IP
fredguff

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Waterboy: Now you've gone way too far. There are the beginnings of Messianic expectations in some of the later prophets and apocalyptic literature. They are NOT explicit predictions for Christ but particular expressions of hope involving a new Davidic figure restoring the fortunes of Israel. Jesus did NOT fulfil these expectations.
Reading Christ into the apocalyptic literature is akin to reading the I Ching. The text can say just about anything you want it to say.

How about  the biblical prophecys about Tiger Woods?

Proverbs 22:15 “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.”
Obviously this passage refers to Tiger’s wildness off the tee as a youth.

Isaiah 11:8 “And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp.”
A snake hole and a golf hole are about the same size, aren’t they? Plus, we are quite certain that there were snakes somewhere on the first course Tiger played.

Jeremiah 28:13 “Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast broken the yokes of wood; but thou shalt make for them yokes of iron.”
It is apparently not just coincidence that Tiger came around right as golf switched from wooden woods to metal woods.

Psalm 89:32 “Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.”
Tiger, with his stripes, punishes his opponents with his clubs.

Psalm 31:4 "Free me from the trap that is set for me, for you are my refuge."
Tiger is an excellent bunker player.

Revelations 12:5 “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.”
Here the scriptures predict how Tiger, at a young age, will dominate the world with his irons.

http://www.tigerwoodsisgod.com/newsitem.php?cnt_id=17


 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 5:49 PM on March 8, 2009 | IP
waterboy

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Love all that 'guff

I always knew Tiger was a God...  now you've given us watertight, can't say a word against it, take it for a fact EVIDENCE.


-------
Charis kai Eirene
 


Posts: 218 | Posted: 6:06 PM on March 8, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Ok, i got myself a signature.

God will judge us even when we're not responsible. He blinds us and punishes us for being blind. Nice.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 05:03 AM on March 25, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Tim Minchin - The Good Book (live)

Life is like an ocean voyage and our bodies are the ships
And without a moral compass we would all be cast adrift
So to keep us on our bearings, the Lord gave us a gift
And like most gifts you get, it was a book

I only read one book, but it's a good book, don't you know
I act the way I act because the Good Book tells me so
If I wanna known how to be good, it's to the Good Book that I go
'Cos the Good Book is a book and it is good and it's a book

I know the Good Book's good because the Good Book says it's good
I know the Good Book knows it's good because a really good book would
You wouldn't cook without a cookbook and I think it's understood
You can't be good without a Good Book 'cos it's good and it's a book
And it is good for cookin'

I tried to read some other books, but I soon gave up on that
The paragraphs ain't numbered and they complicate the facts
I can't read Harry Potter 'cos they're worshipping false gods and that
And Dumbledore's a poofter and that's bad, 'cos it's not good

Morality is written there in simple white and black
I feel sorry for you heathens, got to think about all that
Good is good and evil's bad and goats are good and pigs are crap
You'll find which one is which in the Good Book, 'cos it's good
And it's a book, and it's a book

I had a cat, she gave birth to a litter
The kittens were adorable and they made my family laugh
But as they grew they started misbehavin'
So I drowned the little fuckers in the bath
When the creatures in your care start being menaces
The answers can be found right there in Genesis!
Chapter 6, Verse 5-7!

Swing your partner by the hand
Have a baby if you can
But if the voices in your head
Say to sacrifice your kid
To satisfy your loving God's
Fetish for dead baby blood
It's simple fate, the Book demands
So raise that knife up in your hand!

Before the Good Book made us good, there was no good way to know
If a thing was good or not that good or kind of touch and go
So God decided he'd give writing allegoric prose a go
And so he wrote a book and it was generally well-received

The Telegraph said, "This God is reminiscent of the Norse."
The Times said, "Kind of turgid, but I liked the bit with horses."
The Mail said, "Lots of massacres, a violent tour de force.
If you only read one book this year, then this one is a book
And it is good, and it's a book!"

Swing your daughter by the hand
But if she gets raped by a man
And refuses then to marry him
Stone her to death!

If you just close your eyes and block your ears
To the accumulated knowledge of the last two thousand years
Then morally, guess what? You're off the hook
And thank Christ you only have to read one book

Just because the book's contents
Were written generations hence
By hairy desert-dwelling gents
Squatting in their dusty tents
Just because what Heaven said
Was said before they'd leavened bread
Just 'cos Jesus couldn't read
Doesn't mean that we should need
When manipulating human genes
To alleviate pain and fight disease
When deciding whether it's wrong or right
To help the dyin' let go of life
Or stop a pregnancy when it's
Just a tiny blastocyst
There's no reason why we should take a look
At any other book
But the Good Book
'Cause it's good
And it's a book
And it's a book
And it's quite good!

Good is good and evil's bad
And kids get killed when God gets mad
And you'd better take a good look
At the Good Book



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:53 AM on May 15, 2010 | IP
wisp

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A list of books mentioned in the Bible who did not make it into the final cut.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 2:08 PM on June 26, 2010 | IP
    
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