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     Accident upon accident

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VividPicnic

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Look. I really don't know a whole lot of scientific facts. The abundance of them alone though is evidence of some kind of designer. But really, can anyone give me a rough estimate of how many accidents had to occur for the Big Bang to produce the universe and then for that universe to produce evolution? I would be interested. (I'm sure this has been mentioned previously but humour me.)

Also. I'd be interested to know just exactly how evolution takes place. I mean....do atoms have some kind of intelligence? Evolutionists love to weigh us down with gigantic words but I just want the basic laws that say "okay atoms....begin changing your structure to form a new life form". Or does evolution just happen with no motivation and no basic laws.
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 08:30 AM on March 20, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Look. I really don't know a whole lot of scientific facts.
It's ok.
The abundance of them alone though is evidence of some kind of designer.
Why?
But really, can anyone give me a rough estimate of how many accidents had to occur for the Big Bang to produce the universe and then for that universe to produce evolution? I would be interested. (I'm sure this has been mentioned previously but humour me.)
Not in this forum. Do a google search.
Also. I'd be interested to know just exactly how evolution takes place.
Yes! Biological evolution is based on DNA, which are a bunch of genes tied together that have learned how to cooperate. Genes are replicators. Abiogenesis tells us that there were more elemental replicators before genes, but that's not what biological evolution is about.

Specific genes getting in touch with other genes was an accident. MOST accidents are disastrous, or do nothing. Very few of them give the replicators an advantage. Those with an advantage thrive.

Some primitive cells learned how to stay together (or failed to separate), and begun to cooperate. Behaviors are commanded by genes. Genes only 'care' about themselves.

Genes found a better way to reproduce than simple cell division. They found a bottleneck manner.

In multicelled organisms the only way each of the cells has to give its genes to the next generation is to cooperate with gametes. Each allele (version of a gene) wants to go to the next generation. And it has a 50% chance of getting aboard the next gamete, by a process called meiosis.

Genes learn how to cooperate. Those who don't cooperate don't make it in the gene pool.

It's not that genes are good or bad per se. Genes for sharp teeth are good in wolves, and bad in cows.

Evolution is the change of frequencies of alleles in a population over time.

In a sunny environment, alleles for dark skin in humans are successful (so you get less skin cancer).
In cloudy environments alleles for white skin are more successful (to produce more vitamin D).

New alleles appear by mutation. There are several kinds of mutation.

Sometimes a gene (or set of genes) with a specific function get duplicated, and the organism may have two sets of genes with the same function. In future generations one of the pair can mutate, and the original function is secured if the other one doesn't mutate.
That way new functions appear.

Evolution does its best with the elements it has at hand.

For instance, birds have hollow bones. That makes them more fragile, but lighter (useful for flying).

Bats, being mammals, don't have hollow bones. That evolutionary path has not 'discovered' how to make hollow bones.

Ostriches have hollow bones. They don't need hollow bones because they don't fly. They need stronger bones. But that evolutionary path has not 'discovered' how to fill them up.

Parasitism is a boost to Evolution. Natural selection makes better organisms (to fight parasites), and better parasites.

When parasites reproduce in the same way the genes of the organisms do (by transplanting themselves to the offspring), they start cooperating (because they want the same). They become symbionts. That's what our organelles once were.

Sometimes the organelles give up their DNA, mixing it in the nucleus of the host cell. Mitochondrions (the organelles in our cells that provide us with energy) still have their own DNA. They can bee seen as a part of us, or as different organisms.

Mating organisms that get isolated can get so different that they can no longer mate (or their offspring isn't fertile). This is called 'speciation'.

If we're not talking about organisms that can mate then the line gets blurrier.

There are lots of things you need to learn about Evolution. Check wikipedia for details on the parts you're interested in, and you can ask us about specific problems you find.

All the best.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 09:39 AM on March 20, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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But really, can anyone give me a rough estimate of how many accidents had to occur for the Big Bang to produce the universe and then for that universe to produce
evolution?


None.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 5:28 PM on March 20, 2009 | IP
VividPicnic

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I see. No accidents. No chance elements. No conditions that had to be perfect before things could come about.

I have to say, if chance doesn't drive evolution, what does? The forces of nature? The laws of nature? Tell me exactly how do laws come about without a law giver?
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 8:10 PM on March 20, 2009 | IP
orion

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You know, I'm coming to realize that it's pretty hard to discuss a scientific topic with someone who appears not to have a basic understanding of science.  
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 8:26 PM on March 20, 2009 | IP
wisp

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And an antic disposition.

Ok, Vivid. To the basics:
Grab 10 coins. Flip them all. Save the heads. Flip again. Soon you'll have nothing but heads.

In nature a successful trait is as unlikely as a coin falling on its side, but even then it works.

Google "evolution". Get the basics.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:00 PM on March 20, 2009 | IP
VividPicnic

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Yes well I think we're talking more like 50 billion coins and maybe something like 50 billion sets of those 50 billion coins.

But yes. You can simplify it down to ten coins if you want.
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 11:39 PM on March 20, 2009 | IP
VividPicnic

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Okay Orion. You still didn't address my point. Or are you telling me that I need a basic understanding of science to figure out that there were chance elements involved in evolution?
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 11:42 PM on March 20, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from VividPicnic at 08:30 AM on March 20, 2009 :
Also. I'd be interested to know just exactly how evolution takes place. I mean....do atoms have some kind of intelligence?


How much chemistry have you had?  In organic chemistry, you might be able to describe a reaction between two compounds in terms of five or six products with each being a certain percentage.  How would you explain that?



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 11:52 PM on March 20, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Yes well I think we're talking more like 50 billion coins and maybe something like 50 billion sets of those 50 billion coins.
Are you talking about DNA? Are you including the junk DNA?

So you did understand, right?

Man, i wouldn't tell you to grab 50 billion sets of 50 billion coins. You'd go to jail trying.






-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 01:09 AM on March 21, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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Or are you telling me that I need a basic understanding of science to figure out that there were chance elements involved in evolution?

Yes, we are telling you this.  Evolution is not driven by chance.  Natural selection IS selection and therefore non-random.  Why are you ignoring this concept?  
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 01:40 AM on March 21, 2009 | IP
orion

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There are definitely chance elements/events that have an enormous impact in the direction that evolution takes.  No doubt about that.  Obviously asteroid/comet impacts and large-scale volcanic events have played a dramatic role in what road evolution takes.  global catastrophes lead to mass extinctions, but open up niches for rapid evolution to take place.  

You've heard the saying 'nature abhors a vacuum'.  Well, so does life.  Evolution will take advantage of filling available ecological niches (vacuums, you might say) that appear.  This filling of ecological niches doesn't happen by chance, it happens through the process of  natural selection.


 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 1:13 PM on March 23, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Vivid, if you want to bring God into the equation, it can be done.

I can pull it out.

Let's see...

God is Love (meaning that Love is one of the attributes of God).

Love not as a corny feeling, but as a universal principle, or force. The force that drives together things with a shared nature.

Love between consciousnesses is the re-cognition (from Lat. "cognoscere, to know) of the other.
In order to recognize the other one has first to know himself.
Loving includes wishing well for the object of love.

Love is also the force that drives consciousness towards its eternal source (a.k.a. God).

This force makes atoms and energy interact (because they share the same nature).

Once self-replicators emerge, self replicators love themselves, and their copies. They act as if they had a little borrowed will: they wish the best for themselves and their copies.
It's a tiny representation of the Love of God.

Self-replicators will grow in complexity due to natural selection. Once they attach themselves to other chemicals or other self-replicators in a successful way, they will thrive.

In our case genes are the basic self-replicators. They have learned how to cooperate with other genes, but they only love themselves and their copies.

They cooperate because meiosis is fair. Each allele (a gene which competes with other genes for the same position in a chromosome) knows it has 50% chance of being copied into the next successful (reproducing) gamete.

Genes have learned how to cooperate to produce individuals: vessels that care for their load of genes, and will try to pass them to more vessels.

Their load of loving genes will make vessels care for themselves first. But they will also learn how to care for other vessels: those who share a portion of the same genes (its offspring, for instance).

Any individual of my offspring shares a 50% of my genes (of my alleles actually). So two of them are as worthy as myself. The same goes to my full brothers and my parents (this factor should be multiplied by the chances of survival/reproducing to get a more accurate figure).

Sea turtles don't seem to love their offspring very much. They don't take care of each one of their children, because that would take time and energy.
But they have a low survival rate. Investing time and energy in them would be lack of love for their future offspring. So it all evens out, and Love works perfectly.

The vessels will grow in complexity. Some of them might even develop a consciousness (a highly complex system of Knowledge and Love).
Consciousness can acquire a growing independence from the genes that built it.
Then a consciousness will love itself more than the genes that built it, and it will love other consciousnesses, for they share the same nature.

It is a change of paradigm from the genetic love to the conscious love (sex and friendship are shortcuts, and they too are tiny representations of the Love of God).

Then consciousnesses might join and grow, towards the source. The return to God.


Warning: Most of the important words used in this post can be replaced (specially Love and God).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 2:26 PM on March 23, 2009 | IP
    
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