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JSF16

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What are your opinions on Christianity? I hope not as bad as hers.

http://www.evilbible.com/


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 11:12 PM on April 17, 2009 | IP
wisp

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I know her work. I love it.

I think she's mistaken in a couple of things, but perhaps it's just me.

JSF16, you have yet to reply to the replies of your "questions".



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:32 PM on April 17, 2009 | IP
orion

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Quote from JSF16 at 11:12 PM on April 17, 2009 :
What are your opinions on Christianity? I hope not as bad as hers.

http://www.evilbible.com/


Reading through some of the comments the author has made on the 'evilbible' website, I have to say I agree with her.  Maybe that's why Chrisitanity makes no sense to me.

What about you, JSF16?  How do you reconcile the comments made on 'evilbible' claiming that God condoned murder, war, rape, slavery, pillage, and sacrafice?  That's not a god I would choose to admire.  



 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 09:17 AM on April 18, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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It's amazing how few people actually know what is in the Bible.  They are content if their "bible study" consists of sitting in a room and being led by the nose.  Heaven forbid if they actually thought something for themselves, or even worse if they read it themselves.

What's more important, Christ or the Bible?


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 3:17 PM on April 18, 2009 | IP
JSF16

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Christ. But I refuted some stuf on that site. Will post more later.

1. Human sacrifice, There was none demanded by god. The Abraham and Issac issue was a test of faith, it was a test to see if Abraham trusted had so much faith, that he would even kill his own son, if demanded. But He never did, and sacrificed a ram instead.

2. The food for the priests to give to god, God demanded the best food, why would god have just some flesh, he is god after all. He wanted the best.

3. Consecrating the first born humans meant that they where dedicated to him, like Samuel was. Dedicated, meaning not sacrificed, it meant to be brought up to serve god.

4. Jephthah was just plain stupid. That wasn't gods cruelty, that was his stupidity to make such an idiotic vow to sacrifice whatever he first saw through the door. That first thing happened to be his daughter.

5. The book of the wisdom of Solomon? That isn't the bible, that's the Apocrypha. That was added to the bible several hundred years after.

And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.  (John 14:13-14 NAB) This is saying that if the act glorifies the lord, he will do it. Asking for a million bucks is not glorifying the lord.

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed.  Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

Judea and Israel had both been taken over and enslaved by the Romans.

show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea".  Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

He was taking peoples hearts. Look now, Christianity is all across the globe.

1) cast out devils, 2) speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents, 4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching them

1.My father is a pastor, he has cast out many-a-demon.
2. I have seen many speak in tongues.
3. Explain.
4. One women tried to poison a missionaries tea with enough to kill 7. He survived.
5. I have read many accounts where that happened.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 12:23 AM on April 26, 2009 | IP
wisp

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1. Human sacrifice, There was none demanded by god. The Abraham and Issac issue was a test of faith, it was a test to see if Abraham trusted had so much faith, that he would even kill his own son, if demanded.
Are you saying that God didn't know?

3. Consecrating the first born humans meant that they where dedicated to him, like Samuel was. Dedicated, meaning not sacrificed, it meant to be brought up to serve god.
Hum... I like that explanation.

4. Jephthah was just plain stupid. That wasn't gods cruelty, that was his stupidity to make such an idiotic vow to sacrifice whatever he first saw through the door. That first thing happened to be his daughter.
Very true. Well, it would be true if the story itself was true.

And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.  (John 14:13-14 NAB) This is saying that if the act glorifies the lord, he will do it. Asking for a million bucks is not glorifying the lord.
Ask for my eyes to be opened, like yours were.

That's not glorifying the Lord either?

Well, what is? Ask for peace in the world, relief for the sick... I don't know...

Is there anything that qualifies?
What, asking for the sun to rise tomorrow?

1) cast out devils, (...) 1.My father is a pastor, he has cast out many-a-demon.
Gullibility is far more likely than demons.

Ask the demons to possess my dog, and i'll believe you.

Hell, ask them to possess me! I volunteer! I'll take the risk, if that uncovers the truth and saves many souls.

I also volunteer to drink the most harmful homeopathic solvent they can come up with.

2) speak in tongues, (...) 2. I have seen many speak in tongues.
Again, gullibility. Ask any linguist. They'll tell you that the tongues you've heard have no possible syntax.

3) take up serpents, (...) 3. Explain.
What do you mean by "Explain"? Mark 16:18 (they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all).

4) drink poisons without harm, (...) 4. One women tried to poison a missionaries tea with enough to kill 7. He survived.
Survived... Does that mean that he WAS harmed?

and 5) cure the sick by touching them (...) 5. I have read many accounts where that happened.
That's also the case with many new age therapies.

But it's never amputees. God must have some special plan for them.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 02:06 AM on April 26, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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Human sacrifice, There was none demanded by god.

God called for the sacrifice of Jesus, who was human.  Most primitive religions demand a blood scrifice of some kind and christianity is no different.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 03:56 AM on April 26, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Basically, to test for true christianity, ask a "christian" to give you his wallet, and to drink poison.


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:07 AM on April 26, 2009 | IP
JSF16

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Quote from Demon38 at 03:56 AM on April 26, 2009 :
Human sacrifice, There was none demanded by god.

God called for the sacrifice of Jesus, who was human.  Most primitive religions demand a blood scrifice of some kind and christianity is no different.

No, god called for a sacrifice, Lambs usually. Jesus, volunteered, so we wouldn't have to sacrifice anymore.

God knew, but until something is tested, it's not really real. Gods test made it real.

I saw demon. And unless my folks got holographic projectors, and terror radiating machines, it was real.

God says he'll do it. Did he  say he'd do it instantly?

I would not ask one to possess you.

1. I'm not in contact.

2. You don't do deals with the devil.

3. If you were possessed, the you believed. Satan would never do anything to assist god.





-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 11:58 AM on April 26, 2009 | IP
wisp

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No, god called for a sacrifice, Lambs usually. Jesus, volunteered, so we wouldn't have to sacrifice anymore.
Jesus "volunteered" to be sacrificed. And it looked like it was God's will, not his. He seemed a little bit disappointed at it. And i would be too.

Such a great man, killed, and his word diminished, and his sad death glorified... Such a shame...

God knew, but until something is tested, it's not really real.
Sure it is. The center of the Earth is hot. No one has tested it, but we know by inference. God should be better than us at that.
Gods test made it real.
You can only test what you ignore. Otherwise it's not a test.
It might be a demonstration, but for whom?

I saw demon. And unless my folks got holographic projectors, and terror radiating machines, it was real.
If those are the only two options, i go with the holographic projectors.

STORY TIME

I once fooled my friends when i was a kid. I told them i was playing Ouija with a bottle, and something went wrong.
The went to see, and the bottle was smoking, and had a pulsating shine.

I did it by placing a set of mirrors so that they sent a ray of sunlight to the bottle. I hung a nylon bag (from the supermarket) that was translucent, gave it lots of turns, and when i let it alone, it started rotating to the other side.
I set it so that it periodically covered and uncovered the ray of sunlight.
Then i lighted a match and tossed it into the bottle. And went screaming.
By the time my friends came, the fire had died out, and the bottle was smoking, and brighting. It went very well.


In another occasion i prepared some Ouija board and told my cousin to come.

We prepared, i talked loud all the time (with a good reason), and finally i said "Spirit, are you there? Send us a signal."
Sure as Hell fire the puppy i had locked in the closet scratched at the right time (or perhaps it was scratching all along but couldn't be heard because of my loudness).
My cousin went off, pretty convinced.

Oh, i just remembered!
In one occasion i was playing Ouija with my sister and her friends.
The letters were simply small pieces of paper with letters scribbled on them.

When they asked "Spirit, are you there? Send us a signal", i blew.
That's all i did! I just fucking blew on the pieces of paper!
They went hysterical.
My sister said that the letters ended up as the outline of a demonic face. And later on she saw her cat with a deformed face, mimicking the one in the pieces of paper.

Yeah, my sister was always a crazy bitch. xD

Hum... I remembered another one. I'm not proud of it. It's worse.

I was at my grandparent's. We (the family, and a couple of friends, i think) were in the living room. I got up and went to the dining room to grab something to eat, i think. I pushed a hanging lamp, just to see it sway, and went back to the living room.
My grandmother went to the dining room, called us, and asked if anyone had moved it.

The temptation was too great. I said no.
Everybody said no.
Everybody was perfectly sure that no one had gone to the dining room. Damn sure!
To my grandmother it was my dead uncle, telling us that he was around.

It gives me the shivers.

But my mother side of the family is always like that.
If a dog with a limp follows them for too long, it's my uncle's limping ghost (nevermind if the dog is actually a bitch).

God says he'll do it. Did he  say he'd do it instantly?
No. But Jesus said that he'd come back quickly.

"Behold, i come quickly!", he said.

I don't believe he meant that he was a premature ejaculator.
2k years have passed.

Actually, i don't even believe he said that at all.

I would not ask one to possess you.
Why not? It would be for the good of human kind.

Someone should ask for demons to possess Richard Dawkins. That would get a lot of conversions, and Richard was doomed to Hell anyway.

God already killed almost all of human kind once. Innocent children included. Unborn babies included.
Why not Dawkins?

1. I'm not in contact.
You're in contact with one in contact.

2. You don't do deals with the devil.
I thought we were talking about demons.

Ok, i just tried to make a deal with the Devil. He didn't show up.

3. If you were possessed, the you believed.
So this possession thing only affects believers?

STORY TIME 2

I went with my great aunt to a church once. She wanted to go, so i took her.
They were Brazilian "priests".

They brought a problematic girl to the stage. She said that she was troubled.
The minister put his hands on her forehead, and called for demons, or something.

The girl started to twitch frantically.

"Declare your name, demon!", said the priest, with his Brazilian accent.
The girl (or the demon) uttered some Brazilian name... I don't remember it, but it was definitely Brazilian, like, i don't know, Ronaldinho.
(At that point i thought "Oh, i see, this is staged! They bring the demons from Brazil and put them in nice girls!)

-What troubles are you causing this girl?
-Shriek! Argañlkuaw drugs!
-What else?
-Shriek! GHkdsahkljfhasñlkdj sex!
-What else?
-Shriek... Er... Shrieeeek... Hum... Drugs!

It seemed like the demons have bad memory.

The priest took the demon out, the girl was a normal girl again, hallelujah...
The girl stepped down, and was received by no folks (apparently the demon had made her unwanted).

She didn't stay to praise the Lord. She went through some door.

My great aunt wanted to leave at this point.

Satan would never do anything to assist god.
Satan makes no sense.

He's supposed to be very smart, but what you tell us about him doesn't sound smart at all.
I mean... Picking a fight with the Almighty Lord?
Hello?
Doesn't the "almighty" part ring any bell???


(Edited by wisp 4/26/2009 at 9:51 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 1:07 PM on April 26, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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No, god called for a sacrifice, Lambs usually. Jesus, volunteered, so we wouldn't have to sacrifice anymore.

Why does a so called god of love need a sacrifice of blood at all???   You claim God is all powerful, why do we have to kill anything to glorify him???  Seems pretty primitive and blood thirsty to me.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 02:38 AM on April 27, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from JSF16 at 11:23 PM on April 25, 2009 :
4. Jephthah was just plain stupid. That wasn't gods cruelty, that was his stupidity to make such an idiotic vow to sacrifice whatever he first saw through the door. That first thing happened to be his daughter.


Did he sin?





-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 09:46 AM on April 27, 2009 | IP
orion

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Quote from Demon38 at 02:38 AM on April 27, 2009 :
No, god called for a sacrifice, Lambs usually. Jesus, volunteered, so we wouldn't have to sacrifice anymore.

Why does a so called god of love need a sacrifice of blood at all???   You claim God is all powerful, why do we have to kill anything to glorify him???  Seems pretty primitive and blood thirsty to me.



My thoughts exactly.  It seems like the concept of who/what God is needs to evolve into something a little more ... realistic.

People clinging to an outdated and primitive notion of God is a frightening example of ignorance and simplistic thinking.



 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 11:46 AM on April 27, 2009 | IP
Zucadragon

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God is amazing, he's the only god that can make it seem like he's good compared to the devil he created but in reality isn't that good in comparison.


 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 4:40 PM on April 27, 2009 | IP
wisp

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But that's nothing compared to the evils of the Devil!

He made us... Er... Have sex... And...



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 5:11 PM on April 27, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from JSF16 at 11:12 PM on April 17, 2009 :
What are your opinions on Christianity? I hope not as bad as hers.

http://www.evilbible.com/



I have always found that those who attack the bible in such a way don't understand what it actually says, and those that do either believe or realize that it is not cynical, and don't have a problem with those who believe.


-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 07:08 AM on April 28, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from Demon38 at 02:38 AM on April 27, 2009 :
No, god called for a sacrifice, Lambs usually. Jesus, volunteered, so we wouldn't have to sacrifice anymore.

Why does a so called god of love need a sacrifice of blood at all???   You claim God is all powerful, why do we have to kill anything to glorify him???  Seems pretty primitive and blood thirsty to me.


It is not a sacrifice to glorify him, but a ritual to essentially get rid of your sin. In the original Jewish tradition the spirit/soul was one with the body, that later changed, but the punishment of sin is death. The animal sacrifice was the scapegoat of any human sinning that had been done since animals can't technically sin according to the bible. God asked Jesus to be a human sacrifice to get rid of all sin for those who would accepted him into their hearts. Jesus did this and is able to absolve all sin so long as the person lets Jesus into their heart.



-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 07:22 AM on April 28, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Yeah!! A new Creationist!!

Wait, are you a creationist, Fencer?

I have always found that those who attack the bible in such a way don't understand what it actually says,
Haha! Yeah... You people always say that.

I have always found that no Christian ever understood what the Bible says.

It is not a sacrifice to glorify him, but a ritual to essentially get rid of your sin. In the original Jewish tradition the spirit/soul was one with the body, that later changed, but the punishment of sin is death. The animal sacrifice was the scapegoat of any human sinning that had been done since animals can't technically sin according to the bible. God asked Jesus to be a human sacrifice to get rid of all sin for those who would accepted him into their hearts. Jesus did this and is able to absolve all sin so long as the person lets Jesus into their heart.
Besides they don't care about Jesus' life, but his cruel, hideous death.

So the punishment for sin is death... Why?
I mean, didn't Yahweh made the system?
Why provide a roundabout to his own system?

If he really wants to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them?

Looking forward to your reply.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 08:48 AM on April 28, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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It is not a sacrifice to glorify him, but a ritual to essentially get rid of your sin. In the original Jewish tradition the spirit/soul was one with the body, that later changed, but the punishment of sin is death. The animal sacrifice was the scapegoat of any human sinning that had been done since animals can't technically sin according to the bible. God asked Jesus to be a human sacrifice to get rid of all sin for those who would accepted him into their hearts. Jesus did this and is able to absolve all sin so long as the person lets Jesus into their heart.

Back to the original question, why does an all-powerful god require an innocent animal dieing to get rid of sin?  Why did he make part of himself pretend to die to get rid of human sin?  couldn't he just have said "Apoology accepted, all your sins are forgiven..." ?  Why use the primitive blood sacrifice that older religions had used?  It just doesn't make sense.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 11:20 AM on April 28, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from wisp at 08:48 AM on April 28, 2009 :
Yeah!! A new Creationist!!

Wait, are you a creationist, Fencer?


No, but I can pretend to be one if you want. I myself think I would do a good job at it too.

Haha! Yeah... You people always say that.


Maybe you would like to read the rest of my statement? I know many people who understand the bible, but don't believe. Those that attack the bible aren't just going after creationists, but everyone who believes, which in itself is very silly.

I have always found that no Christian ever understood what the Bible says.


Perhaps you would like to share some of this knowledge you have obtained? So that others might open their eyes to the true message of Christ.

Besides they don't care about Jesus' life, but his cruel, hideous death.


Not true, his life and his teachings is our model on how to behave in life. But we take special interest in his death because we know he went through a lot of torture to conquer death. It is very poetic and the bible relies heavily on symbols to get its point across.

So the punishment for sin is death... Why?
I mean, didn't Yahweh made the system?
Why provide a roundabout to his own system?

If he really wants to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them?

Looking forward to your reply.



There are two types of death, physical and spiritual. Death from sin is known as spiritual death, but the early Jews interpreted it as both kinds. So when you sinned you would go to the temple, do whatever ritual they did and sacrificed the animal in place of them self to absolve their sin.

God is considered holy, so he cannot let those who have sin inside them be with him in heaven. God wants to forgive our sin, and let us into heaven, but as long as we have sin inside we can't. So God came down incarnate, lived a perfect life free of sin so he could be sacrificed and is able to atone all sin in the world, the only catch is that that person must accept him into their soul so he can absolve their sin, and then be able to go to heaven.

I hope that answered your question, if not I'll try to explain it better. I have a feeling where going to have fun on this board. And I look forward to your reply.


-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 7:16 PM on April 28, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from Demon38 at 11:20 AM on April 28, 2009 :
Back to the original question, why does an all-powerful god require an innocent animal dieing to get rid of sin?  Why did he make part of himself pretend to die to get rid of human sin?  couldn't he just have said "Apoology accepted, all your sins are forgiven..." ?  Why use the primitive blood sacrifice that older religions had used?  It just doesn't make sense.


I might have this wrong, but back in the day I think they were essentially transferring their sin to the animal and the animal died with their sins.

As I told Wisp, God is holy and is separate from sin, and only those free from sin can be with him. I don't know why God didn't just say "all your sins are forgiven now come up and lets party" whenever someone dies. My best answer right now would be that God is just, so someone must answer for the sins committed.

But I'm not Jewish and I haven't studied animal sacrifice, in the Christian religion animal sacrifice is not part of it so I don't know a whole lot about it. I'll ask around and hopefully when and if this discussion is brought up again I'll have a better answer. If this one goes on long enough I might have an answer before this one goes dead.

One last thing, in the Christian religion Jesus really did die, not just pretend. He came back to life after three days, but he really wad dead for those three days.


This is for anyone, how do I put a profile picture under my name?

(Edited by Fencer27 4/28/2009 at 7:37 PM).


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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 7:31 PM on April 28, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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One last thing, in the Christian religion Jesus really did die, not just pretend. He came back to life after three days, but he really wad dead for those three days.

Yes I know, but being God he really didn't die and being omniscient he knew he wouldn't really die.  So where is the sacrifice if you know you won't really die.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 9:34 PM on April 28, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Yes I know, but being God he really didn't die and being omniscient he knew he wouldn't really die.  So where is the sacrifice if you know you won't really die.


I would agree that he knew he would raise from the dead after three days, but why do you insist that he wasn't really dead? Jesus is different from God.



-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 12:29 AM on April 29, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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I would agree that he knew he would raise from the dead after three days, but why do you insist that he wasn't really dead? Jesus is different from God.

And I agree with you here, even though Jesus is God, according to christianity, but many fundamentalists claim he is not different from God and that being God he was also omniscient and omnipotent.  If you know you're not going to stay dead, what kind of sacrifice is that?

 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 07:56 AM on April 29, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Maybe you would like to read the rest of my statement?
Answering without reading is not something i do.
I know many people who understand the bible, but don't believe.
The christians i know believe that no non-christian understands the Bible.
I wonder what's "understanding the Bible".

Those that attack the bible aren't just going after creationists, but everyone who believes, which in itself is very silly.
"Believes"? What do you mean? In God? That the Bible is his literal word? That the Bible is his symbolic word?

I have always found that no Christian ever understood what the Bible says.
Perhaps you would like to share some of this knowledge you have obtained?
Certainly.
So that others might open their eyes to the true message of Christ.
True message of Christ? What Christ? You mean Jesus?

Ok, here i go:
Jesus said that the Old Testament is ok. That you should follow those rules.

Matthew 5:19 (King James Version)

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


So christians should avoid pork, respect the sabbath, and stone to death those who don't.

They should also kill those who try to convince them to give up their religion.

That's why i think you should give up your religion.

Wait... Oops!

Oh, and another thing they tend to get wrong. They believe that their dead loved ones are waiting in Heaven. The Bible states clearly that the dead don't know anything. They're just dead. They'll be risen and woken up in the Apocalypse.

They wrote that before having any idea of the number of dead people.

Imagine China, with every dead person zombified in the streets!

Besides they don't care about Jesus' life, but his cruel, hideous death.
Not true, his life and his teachings is our model on how to behave in life.
Speak for yourself.

And while you're at it, send me your money. I'm asking. Jesus said you should give when someone asks you.

Let me guess... Symbolic, right?

But we take special interest in his death because we know he went through a lot of torture to conquer death.
Where does that knowledge come from?
It is very poetic and the bible relies heavily on symbols to get its point across.
Oh...

Well, Christians don't agree on the level of symbolism in the Bible.

There's a scale of biblical literalism. And every christian looks down on those more literalist than themselves.

So the punishment for sin is death... Why?
I mean, didn't Yahweh made the system?
Why provide a roundabout to his own system?

If he really wants to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them?
There are two types of death, physical and spiritual.
What are the consequences of spiritual death?
Death from sin is known as spiritual death,
Yeah, that would be naming. But how can you tell? How does it show? Or does it only show right after you die, when you check the direction you're headed?
but the early Jews interpreted it as both kinds.
Couldn't God make it clear?
So when you sinned you would go to the temple, do whatever ritual they did and sacrificed the animal in place of them self to absolve their sin.
It makes sense, i have to say.
I mean, for a primitive religion.

God is considered holy, so he cannot let those who have sin inside them be with him in heaven.
Then He's not almighty.
I hope you mean that He IS holy. Because if he can't let people go to Him because he's CONSIDERED holy... Well, it sounds very weird, and even less almighty.

God wants to forgive our sin, and let us into heaven, but as long as we have sin inside we can't.
Can He?
He wants > He's almighty > ???

So God came down incarnate,
What's your basis?
lived a perfect life free of sin
Isn't it a sin to be pissed? I distinctly remember that he got pissed.
so he could be sacrificed and is able to atone all sin in the world,
Do you understand that mechanism? I never did.
the only catch is that that person must accept him into their soul so he can absolve their sin, and then be able to go to heaven.
How did people save themselves before that?

4k years of going to hell?
And even after the crucifixion, not many people knew Jesus for a long long time.

And if before knowing the crucifixion event people was saved by "being good" (whatever that means), then what was the need?

If after knowing the strange, implausible and unreliable story, believing it instantly becomes the only way of salvation, gee... Thanks for telling me... Prick!

No matter how you see it, the whole system is very fucked up.

I would agree that he knew he would raise from the dead after three days
My English isn't great, but i know you can't use transitive verbs intransitively.
Jesus was risen.
Unless you mean that he collected funds from the dead.

Hum... Let's not give Christian churches more ideas...

how do I put a profile picture under my name?
profile > edit profile data > GO!



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 10:53 AM on April 29, 2009 | IP
Zucadragon

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On top of that, there is no historical evidence of the rise of Jesus that is significant.

There's a lot of evidence that contradicts itself though.


 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 11:15 AM on April 29, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from Demon38 at 07:56 AM on April 29, 2009 :
If you know you're not going to stay dead, what kind of sacrifice is that?


His sacrifice comes from taking on peoples sins and paying for them himself so we don't have to.



-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 03:40 AM on April 30, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from wisp at 10:53 AM on April 29, 2009 :
The christians i know believe that no non-christian understands the Bible.


Are all Christians you meet creationists?

"Believes"? What do you mean? In God? That the Bible is his literal word? That the Bible is his symbolic word?


Just to step back for a moment, why do you attack the bible?


Jesus said that the Old Testament is ok. That you should follow those rules.


He also amended many of the things taught in the Old Testament as well.

So christians should avoid pork, respect the sabbath, and stone to death those who don't.

They should also kill those who try to convince them to give up their religion.

That's why i think you should give up your religion.


Does this mean I should try to kill you?

Oh, and another thing they tend to get wrong. They believe that their dead loved ones are waiting in Heaven. The Bible states clearly that the dead don't know anything. They're just dead. They'll be risen and woken up in the Apocalypse.

They wrote that before having any idea of the number of dead people.

Imagine China, with every dead person zombified in the streets!


Now that would be insane, talk about the ultimate zombie movie!

[color=teal]Speak for yourself.

And while you're at it, send me your money. I'm asking. Jesus said you should give when someone asks you.

Let me guess... Symbolic, right?


Jesus was making a point, and I guess it would be symbolic.

Oh...

Well, Christians don't agree on the level of symbolism in the Bible.

There's a scale of biblical literalism. And every christian looks down on those more literalist than themselves.


Now now, lets not forget it works in reverse too! Christians also look down upon those who view things metaphorically rather than literal when they themselves view it literal.


[color=teal]So the punishment for sin is death... Why?
I mean, didn't Yahweh made the system?
Why provide a roundabout to his own system?


I mean, I myself don't like to get caught up in equivocation. It makes people lose sight of the actual topic and it is very boring and somewhat tedious, not to mention unbecoming in any circle of integrity. So if you don't do it I wouldn't either.

The punishment of sin is spiritual death. Sin kills the spirit, God doesn't kill it, a person's own sin does.

Yeah, that would be naming. But how can you tell? How does it show? Or does it only show right after you die, when you check the direction you're headed?


That your spirit is alive or dead? I don't have all the answers to my religion just as you do not have all the answers to evolution. Maybe someone out there can explain it to you, but I have not the finesse to tell you what you want to know.

Can He?
He wants > He's almighty > ???


He is also a just God, He will not just forgive your sins randomly.

God came down incarnate,
What's your basis?


Many things, too many to talk about right now.

lived a perfect life free of sin
Isn't it a sin to be pissed? I distinctly remember that he got pissed.


There is a thing called righteous anger.


so he could be sacrificed and is able to atone all sin in the world,
Do you understand that mechanism? I never did.


I think I do understand it, basically when you accept Jesus into your soul He fills you up with the holy spirit, and the way it was explained to me was that when you are judged God doesn't see your sins, because Jesus took them for himself.

How did people save themselves before that?


Through animal sacrifice I guess. I have not studied soteriology, so it is not a question I can really answer. I bet if you looked up how Jews believe they get to heaven it would be something very similar.

4k years of going to hell?
And even after the crucifixion, not many people knew Jesus for a long long time.


True, I think the number given to me was 500 people believed at the time of the crucifixion.

And if before knowing the crucifixion event people was saved by "being good" (whatever that means), then what was the need?


It was not enough, so God fulfilled some of the prophecies by sending Jesus.

If after knowing the strange, implausible and unreliable story, believing it instantly becomes the only way of salvation, gee... Thanks for telling me... Prick!


Just believing will not grant you salvation. It is said that the devil believes, but yet he is not saved. There is more than just belief that saves a person.

I honestly don't know why you are so angry. I'm not trying to convert you, only explaining what I know about my religion so you will understand it better.

No matter how you see it, the whole system is very fucked up.


Perhaps, but I wasn't aware that we could use profanity on the forum. I'm not offended or anything, but if we can use it, it should make for some interesting conversations in the future.


-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 05:34 AM on April 30, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Are all Christians you meet creationists?
No.

I live in Argentina. We have very few creationists.

Just to step back for a moment, why do you attack the bible?
I don't believe i ever have.

I love the Bible!
It's an awesome book! Or collection of books, or whatever.
I used to like mythology when i was a kid.

Jesus said that the Old Testament is ok. That you should follow those rules.
He also amended many of the things taught in the Old Testament as well.
Yeah...



...



So?

So christians should avoid pork, respect the sabbath, and stone to death those who don't.

They should also kill those who try to convince them to give up their religion.

That's why i think you should give up your religion.
Does this mean I should try to kill you?
I thought i had made myself clear...

You should, only if you believe that the Bible is right.

Now that would be insane, talk about the ultimate zombie movie!
So you don't believe that's what will happen?

Let me guess... Symbolic, right?
Jesus was making a point, and I guess it would be symbolic.
Oh... What point would that be?

Every time Jesus asked for something difficult (like stop providing for tomorrow) it was symbolic, right?

Well, Christians don't agree on the level of symbolism in the Bible.

There's a scale of biblical literalism. And every christian looks down on those more literalist than themselves.
Now now, lets not forget it works in reverse too! Christians also look down upon those who view things metaphorically rather than literal when they themselves view it literal.
You're right.

I meant "with embarrassment". It came out wrong. Sorry.

So the punishment for sin is death... Why?
I mean, didn't Yahweh made the system?
Why provide a roundabout to his own system?
I mean, I myself don't like to get caught up in equivocation. It makes people lose sight of the actual topic and it is very boring and somewhat tedious, not to mention unbecoming in any circle of integrity. So if you don't do it I wouldn't either.
I'm lost.

What are you talking about?

Hum... I suspect that you mean the "Jesus raising from the dead" thing...

I don't mind being corrected. I love it. That's the way to learn.

Yeah, that would be naming. But how can you tell? How does it show? Or does it only show right after you die, when you check the direction you're headed?
That your spirit is alive or dead?
Yeah!
I don't have all the answers to my religion just as you do not have all the answers to evolution.
I have at least a basic grasp of every aspect of Evolution that interests me.

And you're talking about spiritual death! I don't know what that would mean, but it sounds really important!!

I'm not sure, but it sounds like, in your view, my spirit is dead.
Would you deny it?

Please, don't say "I don't know".
If you need any additional data to determine it, ask away.

Maybe someone out there can explain it to you, but I have not the finesse to tell you what you want to know.
My bet is that nobody can.

Can He?
He wants > He's almighty > ???
He is also a just God, He will not just forgive your sins randomly.
Then He DOESN'T want to.

The whole crucifixion thing sounds pretty random to me.

God came down incarnate,
What's your basis?
Many things, too many to talk about right now.
So you could, like... Name one?
Is there any reason unrelated to personal revelation?

There is a thing called righteous anger.
Ok, true.

What about violation of the sabbath?
He changed that rule, right?
Well, then he could have done whatever he wanted, and if it was considered a sin, he could just change the rule.

I think I do understand it, basically when you accept Jesus into your soul He fills you up with the holy spirit,
Ok. Can you come up with a way to test for holy spirit presence in a person that can pass a double blind test?
and the way it was explained to me was that when you are judged God doesn't see your sins, because Jesus took them for himself.
Ok. How do they know?

It was not enough, so God fulfilled some of the prophecies by sending Jesus.
Which ones?

If after knowing the strange, implausible and unreliable story, believing it instantly becomes the only way of salvation, gee... Thanks for telling me... Prick!
Just believing will not grant you salvation.
And that's not what i said.
It is said that the devil believes, but yet he is not saved. There is more than just belief that saves a person.
I didn't say "just belief".
Can you be saved before knowing about Jesus?
If yes:
Can you be saved after knowing about Jesus without believing a word of it?
If no:
Can't you rightly say that it's the only way to be saved?

I honestly don't know why you are so angry.
I'm honestly not.

The "prick" thing would be what i'd say in the circumstance that i described.
And i would be angry too. I mean, just by telling me you're damning me to Hell! Prick!

I'm not trying to convert you,
Why not? Am i unworthy of your Heaven?

I resent christians who don't try to convert me.

only explaining what I know about my religion so you will understand it better.
I appreciate the effort, even if my appreciation doesn't show.

I'm just trying to make you see how ridiculous it is, so you can snap out of it, which would make me very happy.
Because i like people. I care about people. I want the best for everyone. And i sincerely believe that religion is not it.

No matter how you see it, the whole system is very fucked up.
Perhaps, but I wasn't aware that we could use profanity on the forum.
Rule 5: Coarse language will not be tolerated.

Yes i can!

It won't be tolerated though.
And i think that's very childish.

If i'm banned i'll take it like a man, and never come back.

I'm not offended or anything, but if we can use it, it should make for some interesting conversations in the future.
I think so.

Vulgar speech has interesting metaphors that generally appeal to disgust.

"That's awesome!" doesn't. No insult, no appeal to disgust. I don't quite understand it, but it's awesome!


(Edited by admin 4/30/2009 at 12:48 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:40 PM on April 30, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from wisp at 12:40 PM on April 30, 2009 :
Jesus said that the Old Testament is ok. That you should follow those rules.


What I meant by amend, is that he gave a new perspective on how to view the laws.


[color=teal]I thought i had made myself clear...

You should(kill), only if you believe that the Bible is right.


I will not kill you if I see you wondering the streets at night.

Now that would be insane, talk about the ultimate zombie movie!
So you don't believe that's what will happen?


Doubt it, but you never know.

[color=teal]Oh... What point would that be?

Every time Jesus asked for something difficult (like stop providing for tomorrow) it was symbolic, right?


I don't know what He means, I'm by no means an expert in Christianity, I think you'd have to ask a priest or someone to get those answers.



That your spirit is alive or dead?
Yeah!
Not sure, I know many people have some answers for that. I'll try to have an answer for you in a few days if were still talking about this.

And you're talking about spiritual death! I don't know what that would mean, but it sounds really important!!

I'm not sure, but it sounds like, in your view, my spirit is dead.
Would you deny it?


Spiritual death means your spirit is well, dead. Which means ultimately that when you die you are not with God, which many interpret as hell.

I know you don't want me to say "I don't know" if your spirit is alive or dead, but I really don't know. You don't have to be a Christian to have a spirit that is alive. One way to tell, so I've heard, is if your spirit is thirsting for truth, and if you are actively seeking out truth and or God and his message. Another, which is somewhat similar, is if you have conflict about things of the spirit, and try to resolve them. I'll ask around and see if there are other ways to tell if your spirit is alive or dead.


Maybe someone out there can explain it to you, but I have not the finesse to tell you what you want to know.
My bet is that nobody can.


I doubt no one can, but at least not me, not now. Come back in a few years lol.

[color=teal]Can He?
He wants > He's almighty > ???
He is also a just God, He will not just forgive your sins randomly.
Then He DOESN'T want to.


It's not that He doesn't want to, it is that He is just, and every sin must be accounted for. And if that sin is in your heart than you cannot enter heaven.

The whole crucifixion thing sounds pretty random to me.


I can understand not believing in it for whatever reason, but to say that it is random. There is much symbolism in the crucifixion and the resurrection. In many ways it completes the bible (in terms of literature anyway, plus I also see it as the climax of the book as a whole).  

God came down incarnate,
[color=teal]What's your basis?
Many things, too many to talk about right now.
[color=teal]So you could, like... Name one?
Is there any reason unrelated to personal revelation?


This may not be what you want, but many people believe because of personal experiences, whatever they might be. Not sure if this counts as personal revelation or not, I guess it does in a way. There is no scientific evidence for it if that is what you are asking. I could go into some speculation on my part, which I'll spare you unless you really want to hear it.

There is a thing called righteous anger.
Ok, true.

What about violation of the sabbath?
He changed that rule, right?
Well, then he could have done whatever he wanted, and if it was considered a sin, he could just change the rule.


He didn't violate it, or abolish it, he merely gave a new way of thinking about it. Yes the sabbath should be about God, but you also keep God's word by helping out those around you, and being responsible. Many of the laws in the OT were mainly on the surface level, Jesus changed them to a deeper level of understanding and told people to change their hearts as well as their actions.

I think I do understand it, basically when you accept Jesus into your soul He fills you up with the holy spirit,
Ok. Can you come up with a way to test for holy spirit presence in a person that can pass a double blind test?


Not test, this isn't science. There is no magic test where some spiritual item or ritual can tell you if your spirit is filled with the holy spirit or not. There are some indicators, praying and reading the bible every day, doing your best to uphold the commandments ect. but again this isn't science so there is no test.

and the way it was explained to me was that when you are judged God doesn't see your sins, because Jesus took them for himself.
Ok. How do they know?


I assume someone told them, or they read it somewhere.

Can you be saved before knowing about Jesus?


Interesting question, many would say no, for me I have yet to make up my mind. For me the real question is what did Jesus mean when he said that he was the only way? Was it really literal, in that you have to be Christian, or was it symbolic for something else. I have seen some pretty interesting responses from very educated Christians on topics like this. Interestingly enough I think the answer is no, not yes.

Can you be saved after knowing about Jesus without believing a word of it?


I think any Christian would say no to this.

Can't you rightly say that it's the only way to be saved?


He is the only way, but the real question is what is meant by that? Literal, or something else?

Why not? Am i unworthy of your Heaven?


Of course not, but it seems you already know the message, it is not up to me to force it down your throat, either you will accept it in time when you are ready or you will not. I will be happy to answer questions as best I can, but ultimately you know the basic message, and only you can decide what you believe.

I resent christians who don't try to convert me.


Why? I am only respecting your right to choose the religion that you follow and practice.  

I'm just trying to make you see how ridiculous it is, so you can snap out of it, which would make me very happy.


Religion isn't as ridiculous as you might think.

Because i like people. I care about people. I want the best for everyone. And i sincerely believe that religion is not it.


At least you have a better reason than most. Your spirit just might be alive after all!


-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 5:47 PM on April 30, 2009 | IP
wisp

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What I meant by amend, is that he gave a new perspective on how to view the laws.
Do you know the law that forbids eating pork?

What's the new perspective on that?

If you don't know, do you avoid pork, just in case?

I will not kill you if I see you wondering the streets at night.
I pretty much know that. Christians don't do that even if the Bible commands it.

But they don't ask themselves why they don't.

Moral values are available to anyone. No Bible necessary.

You pick and chose which biblical rules are ok, using just standard moral available to all of us.

So why wouldn't you kill someone who tries to convince you to change or drop your religion?

I'd like you to ask yourself that important question.

Zombies in the streets:
Doubt it, but you never know.
You doubt your holy book?

Oh... What point would that be?

Every time Jesus asked for something difficult (like stop providing for tomorrow) it was symbolic, right?
I don't know what He means, I'm by no means an expert in Christianity, I think you'd have to ask a priest or someone to get those answers.
It's Jesus' word! It should be important.

It sounds too easy to call oneself a christian.

I think i pay more attention to Jesus' word than most christians.

I don't consider myself worthy of being associated to that great man. And "christians" do it so lightly.

Spiritual death means your spirit is well, dead. Which means ultimately that when you die you are not with God, which many interpret as hell.
So if your spirit is dead now it means that it won't go to God when you die...

So the fact that my spirit is dead now doesn't mean anything now...

I know you don't want me to say "I don't know" if your spirit is alive or dead, but I really don't know. You don't have to be a Christian to have a spirit that is alive. One way to tell, so I've heard, is if your spirit is thirsting for truth, and if you are actively seeking out truth and or God and his message.
What if God's message is "I don't exist!"?

Because no taoist believes in God, and taoism is far better than christianism. Taoism makes sense. It showed real wisdom while the Jews were sacrificing goats.
And taoists were always seeking.

Another, which is somewhat similar, is if you have conflict about things of the spirit, and try to resolve them. I'll ask around and see if there are other ways to tell if your spirit is alive or dead.
Well, that's a liiiitle bit of common sense, at the service of discrimination.
Just one of the many reasons why i don't like christianism (even if i do like christians).

It's not that He doesn't want to, it is that He is just, and every sin must be accounted for.
Here's another christian contradiction about God.
He's an angry vengeful God, but He's just, but He's good...

Just pick one! He can't be all three!!

And if that sin is in your heart than you cannot enter heaven.
Another question that has never been satisfactorily answered to me is "What is sin?".

So...

What is sin?

[/color=teal]The whole crucifixion thing sounds pretty random to me.[/color]
I can understand not believing in it for whatever reason, but to say that it is random.
Hum... Well, it wasn't exactly random... It was taken from other myths that had been proved to work. So with the virgin birth and the resurrection. But they could have taken elements from other myths, so there's a random element.

There is much symbolism in the crucifixion and the resurrection.
Does that mean that it wasn't literal?

Or something can be literally true, but planned by God to be a symbol?

In many ways it completes the bible (in terms of literature anyway, plus I also see it as the climax of the book as a whole).
Why?

God came down incarnate,
What's your basis?
Many things, too many to talk about right now.
So you could, like... Name one?
Is there any reason unrelated to personal revelation?
This may not be what you want, but many people believe because of personal experiences, whatever they might be. Not sure if this counts as personal revelation or not, I guess it does in a way. There is no scientific evidence for it if that is what you are asking.
What makes it more worthy of consideration than the many other human shared hallucinations?

I could go into some speculation on my part, which I'll spare you unless you really want to hear it.
Some speculations are worth the attention.

I speculate all the time.

He didn't violate it, or abolish it, he merely gave a new way of thinking about it.
A virgin little girl that has been raped must marry her rapist.

What's the new way of thinking it?

If you can't come up with a new one, i guess the old one remains, right?

Do you eat pork?

Do you use mixed fabric in your clothes? Do you check?

Yes the sabbath should be about God, but you also keep God's word by helping out those around you, and being responsible.
Aha... Do you respect the sabbath in any particular way?

What should you do now to those who don't respect the sabbath? In the new way of seeing it, i mean.

What about 2 John 1:10?

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
You started in this forum with "Hello everyone, I'm fencer27".

Has that killed your spirit?

Or is there a new way of seeing
the new way of seeing?

Because... It's John, you know?
Almost band new.

2 John 1:7
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Yours is an evil religion of intolerance.

Nothing special! Most religions are like that. It's a memetic thing. Tolerant religions tend to die. And darwinian forces are at work in religions too.

Religions do what's best for their own survival, using people as their infectious agents.

Intolerance, fear (Hell) and bribing...

Let's find some example of this one...

Done. Found one. Not far from where i was:

2 John 1:8
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Reward. Fear. Intolerance. Sin. Death. Blackmail.

And i'm the one blinded by Yahweh. That prevents me from seeing the truth.

And yet those whose eyes have been opened don't understand and don't know anything of worth regarding some of the most important aspects of their own doctrine.

Many of the laws in the OT were mainly on the surface level, Jesus changed them to a deeper level of understanding and told people to change their hearts as well as their actions.
What's the deep level of "Go to that town, kill men, women and children, except for one or two little girls for each soldier, to rape them as you please"?

Please, show me the depth.

I think I do understand it, basically when you accept Jesus into your soul He fills you up with the holy spirit,
Ok. Can you come up with a way to test for holy spirit presence in a person that can pass a double blind test?
Not test, this isn't science. There is no magic test where some spiritual item or ritual can tell you if your spirit is filled with the holy spirit or not. There are some indicators, praying and reading the bible every day, doing your best to uphold the commandments ect. but again this isn't science so there is no test.
Is there anything testable or reasonable in your religion?

and the way it was explained to me was that when you are judged God doesn't see your sins, because Jesus took them for himself.
Ok. How do they know?
I assume someone told them, or they read it somewhere.
What's holding your religion together?

The Bible whose rules you don't respect?

Would you say that you understand the Bible?

Can you be saved before knowing about Jesus?
Interesting question, many would say no, for me I have yet to make up my mind.
Are you aware that there are people who have not heard from Jesus?

Or perhaps they just know the name but they've told them bullshit about him, since they can't read anyway.

If the answer is no, would you call it a good system if it was made by any other than Yahweh?

For me the real question
Oh, so i guess i make unreal questions...
is what did Jesus mean when he said that he was the only way?
My guess is that he didn't say it at all, and it was a lie made up after his horrible death.
Was it really literal, in that you have to be Christian, or was it symbolic for something else. I have seen some pretty interesting responses from very educated Christians on topics like this. Interestingly enough I think the answer is no, not yes.
Isn't it interesting that Yahweh refuses to bestow some clear rules?

Perhaps Yahweh likes that there are many sects. He works in mysterious ways, you know?

Can you be saved after knowing about Jesus without believing a word of it?
I think any Christian would say no to this.
Then why did Yahweh made it so hard to believe for smart people?

Perhaps Yahweh hates smart people. That's what it seems.

I mean, it's no secret that the higher the IQ_times_education, the lower the chances that the person believes in the supernatural.

You know this, right?

I'm not appealing to smartness as any invisible authority (although i might). I'm not saying that you should believe what the smart people believe, if it doesn't suit you.

I'm saying that it is a fact, and that it means something.

Perhaps we're arrogant! Perhaps Yahweh devises incredible stories to test for arrogance! I don't know! But it must mean something.

What's your guess?

Can't you rightly say that it's the only way to be saved?
He is the only way, but the real question is what is meant by that? Literal, or something else?
Nothing is literal.

A "way" means a track/course/path.

Our language evolved from basic communication skills that described nature.

Take any text, and it's filled with metaphor.

Take the phrase "declaration of independence".

To "declare" means "to make clear". As in water. Clear is good to drink, so it got a positive overtone. From water it must have passed to air (foggy or clear). From there to the act of vision, and from there to the act of understanding (standing under), which is easily seen (understood) as a form of sight.

All of our human abstract concepts evolved from the basic ones, from nature. The concepts that helped our survival.
And that's yet another evidence that the Genesis is not true.

Adam was born with language, and started naming things.
The reality was just the opposite.

Why not? Am i unworthy of your Heaven?
Of course not,
Why "of course"? Many christians believe that i'm not. Well, i don't believe they think about me specifically, but the likes of me
but it seems you already know the message, it is not up to me to force it down your throat,
If you're walking towards a precipice, i'll yell at you. I won't say "Well, he has sight, and the precipice is right in front of him, so it's not up to me".

I'll knock you unconscious if that's the only way that can prevent you from falling.

You're just not committed.

If i held your belief, i would be spreading the word.

And, unless my understanding of Yahweh's system changes completely, i would kill people after their conversion, to send them right into Heaven, to prevent them from falling short of Yahweh's grace again.

I'd try to repent later, but it would be hard, believing that i've saved a lot of souls. And perhaps that very thing would send me to Hell.

either you will accept it in time when you are ready or you will not.
That's a sure bet. But people can alter the odds, right? Don't you believe in free will and things like that?
I will be happy to answer questions as best I can, but ultimately you know the basic message, and only you can decide what you believe.
Yes i do. The basic message is "cover your ears, those who speak against your religion are the antichrist, don't say hello to them, or you'll go to Hell, and if you obey without question you'll go to Heaven".
Very basic.

You're not very good at swallowing it. I'm glad.
Well, swallowing all of it is a hard thing to do nowadays. So instead of that people swallow bits of it. The easier ones to digest.

I resent christians who don't try to convert me.
Why?
Because they believe that they know something that i don't (HAS to be), that could save my eternal soul, and they don't take the effort to convince me.
It's easy to deduct. You shouldn't even ask.

I am only respecting your right to choose the religion that you follow and practice.
That's not "respect".

Fuck respect! It's my eternal soul, man! What the Hell are you saying???

If you're worried that you might have a bad time trying to convince some people, or even fear for your physical integrity, i tell you that you're too focused on this life, and have lost your focus on the next one. You know, the important one.

I have rescued people drowning in the sea. I didn't say "Well, they know that sea is made of water, and that water can drawn you, and blah blah blah".

They obviously didn't believe that they would drawn!

And if they were trying to commit suicide, well, then there's something more profound that they're ignoring! I'll knock them unconscious, and drag them to the shore.

With all due respect, either you don't really believe, or you're a coward.

Religion isn't as ridiculous as you might think.
Support this claim.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 03:46 AM on May 1, 2009 | IP
JSF16

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Quote from Demon38 at 02:38 AM on April 27, 2009 :
No, god called for a sacrifice, Lambs usually. Jesus, volunteered, so we wouldn't have to sacrifice anymore.

Why does a so called god of love need a sacrifice of blood at all???   You claim God is all powerful, why do we have to kill anything to glorify him???  Seems pretty primitive and blood thirsty to me.


Demon, research my beliefs before accusing them. Sacrifice is not about glorifying. It is about sin.God is holy, and can't be near the un-holy. So, we have to be holy, sinless. So, he asked that we put all our sin on a sinless lamb, and sacrifice it to god, give them to god for him to deal with. Then, we were sinless in his eyes, for the meanwhile.

And wisp, the spiritual death of Adam was not how you say it. Adam and eve were so close to god 'cause they were sinless, perfect. But then they disobeyed and lost that connection. That, and they also physically died, though not instantly.


-------
Everyone says expect the unexpected, but since now everyone expects the unexpected, the unexpected is now the expected and the expected is the unexpected. So if you are expecting the unexpected, you are actually expecting the expected, so if you start expecting the expected, you will be expecting the unexpected. So everyone should start expecting the expected again and the expected will be expected and the unexpected will be unexpected again, then we can start expecting the unexpected again.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 11:49 PM on May 2, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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God is holy, and can't be near the
un-holy.


Why not?  I thought God could do anything.

So, we have to be holy, sinless.

Again, why?   I don't understand why an all powerful being forces us to use blood to take away our sins.  Why couldn't he just say "I forgive you" and be done with it.  why does he need us to slaughter an innocent?

So, he asked that we put all our sin on a sinless lamb, and sacrifice it to god, give them to god for him to deal with. Then, we were sinless in his eyes, for the meanwhile.

And you don't see how ridiculous that is?  And how do you "put all our sins on a sinless lamb"?  If you can't see how ignorant and superstitious that is, I guess it's useless to argue with you.

I know all about Christianity, and I still have to ask you why.  so far you have not been able to answer that one question.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 11:58 PM on May 2, 2009 | IP
wisp

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God is holy, and can't be near the un-holy.
Ok, "can't" sounds like less than almighty, but i'll let it pass because i could defend the phrase.

It's like saying "God can't be stupid". You can't reply "So he's not almighty". It's getting lost in words.

But the problem i see with Christianism is that it's all made up by words. It's all about words!

"Put your sins in an innocent lamb".
That doesn't mean anything.
But human words can make up things that mean nothing. I feel like Alice in Wonderland (but more manly).
"Lamb" is the only word that makes sense in that phrase. Not even "put" makes sense.

So, we have to be holy, sinless.
Do you remember that you've been unable to define "sin"?

I do remember.

And wisp, the spiritual death of Adam was not how you say it. Adam and eve were so close to god 'cause they were sinless, perfect. But then they disobeyed and lost that connection. That, and they also physically died, though not instantly.
I also remember that you said that Adam had sinned. And now you change your argument, without admitting that you were wrong before.

Or he sinned, but you accidentally avoided that word in your last phrase?

Why? Only because that was half a year ago?

Quote from JSF16 at 8:08 PM on October 26, 2008 :
a) People will ask, even if they know the truth. He was deciding to see if he lied or not.

b) No, he sinned. He ate the fruit.

c) This is my studied opinions.
October 26, 2008. In "Hell Accounts". In point b) you said he sinned.
You could never justify your opinion.
Has that opinion changed or not?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:37 AM on May 3, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Wisp, I just don't have time to take you up on every point you make. But I'll do my best to condense some of the more major points you make.

First, not all the bible is to be taken literally, and there are many cultural teachings in the bible that don't carry over from culture to culture, one of them being eating habits and certain fabric that one cannot wear.

To your question of what sin is, simply I see it as that which is evil and thus condemned by God. Perhaps JSF will have a different take on it.

The bible is not God, and i worship God, not the bible. The bible certainly teaches people a lot about God and is a good moral guide to how we live our lives and what we should put into our hearts, but it is not the end of our (Christians) understanding of morals. While the bible says to kill you if I see you walking down the street I will not, because a greater evil will be served by killing you. There is no sin in letting you live, even if you try to convince me to give up the faith. God has a plan for everyone, and everyone must play their part. Even deviance has its part in society, why not religion? Perhaps your part is yet to come.

Even if your spirit is dead while you are physically alive, it can effect a person. But I see it more as because a spirit is dead they cannot see God's glory and experience his grace, not in the sense that God will give you small pox and your children horrible deformities.

Last thing for me to point on is why I'm not trying to convert you. If you are interested in becoming a Christian I will do my best to help you as well as any Christian you will come across. But you are not their, and I can tell by your posts you have no intention of becoming one. And no amount of evidence that I can bring will change your mind, therefore I cannot change your mind. It is just something that will have to come to you.

Again, I'm just too pressed for time right now and can't reply to every post specifically. So if you could synthesize your points into a few, or only talk about the most important to you that would be great.  


-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 02:14 AM on May 3, 2009 | IP
wisp

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I've already asked priests. They don't know anything.

Would you say that all taoists are spirit dead?

What makes the Christian hallucination more worthy of consideration than any of the other hundreds of collective hallucinations?

What's the new way of thinking the rule that a raped girl must marry her rapist?

John is supposed to share the new way of seeing. So what about 2 John 1:10?

John says that i'm the antichrist. Would you agree?

Many of the laws in the OT were mainly on the surface level, Jesus changed them to a deeper level of understanding and told people to change their hearts as well as their actions.
What's the deep level of "Go to that town, kill men, women and children, except for one or two little girls for each soldier, to rape them as you please"?

Please, show me the depth.

Why did Yahweh come up with a plan that seemed so incredible (hard to believe) to the smart/educated?

First, not all the bible is to be taken literally, and there are many cultural teachings in the bible that don't carry over from culture to culture, one of them being eating habits and certain fabric that one cannot wear.
Didn't Yahweh know this?

Wait... What's the relation between Yahweh and the Bible?

To your question of what sin is, simply I see it as that which is evil and thus condemned by God.
Nice!
You think you've stated something simple?

Evil and thus condemned by God, and not the other way around.
So where does the qualification of "evil" come from, since it doesn't come from God?
You make it sound like it's objective.

The bible is not God, and i worship God, not the bible.
So you don't believe it's His word?

The bible certainly teaches people a lot about God and is a good moral guide to how we live our lives (...)
Good moral guide... Have you read it?

Have you checked the site that JSF16 posted?

but it is not the end of our (Christians) understanding of morals.
Where do the rest come from?

While the bible says to kill you if I see you walking down the street I will not, because a greater evil will be served by killing you.
Says whom?

God has a plan for everyone, and everyone must play their part.
So you don't pray, right?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 03:10 AM on May 3, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from wisp at 03:10 AM on May 3, 2009 :


Would you say that all taoists are spirit dead?


No, why?

What makes the Christian hallucination more worthy of consideration than any of the other hundreds of collective hallucinations?


It is just believed that many of the so called hallucinations are supernatural in origin, that is just how it is.

What's the new way of thinking the rule that a raped girl must marry her rapist?


Much of the new way of thinking was moving from surface actions, to changing your heart.

John is supposed to share the new way of seeing. So what about 2 John 1:10?

John says that i'm the antichrist. Would you agree?


You? Definitely not. You have not displayed enough wisdom to even be considered. However, you could have been deceived by him, and because you now walk the path of him, you have become his servant without knowing it.

What's the deep level of "Go to that town, kill men, women and children, except for one or two little girls for each soldier, to rape them as you please"?


Where is this in the bible?

Why did Yahweh come up with a plan that seemed so incredible (hard to believe) to the smart/educated?


I'm not God, I don't know, but about half of all scientists are religious.

Didn't Yahweh know this?

Wait... What's the relation between Yahweh and the Bible?


God inspired those who wrote the bible, the bible is God's message, but since God did not write it or had people transcribe it word for word it mustn't be read as so.

Nice!
You think you've stated something simple?

Evil and thus condemned by God, and not the other way around.
So where does the qualification of "evil" come from, since it doesn't come from God?
You make it sound like it's objective.


It is not simple, but the basic idea is; evil, which is condemned by God is thus sin. God is not evil, therefore evil does not come from God.

So you don't believe it's (bible) His word?


What do you mean by "word"?

[quoteGood moral guide... Have you read it?


Not all of it.

Have you checked the site that JSF16 posted?


I skimmed it when I first came on, don't remember any of it now lol. I'll check it out again within the next few days.

Where do the rest come from?


Personal experience, prayer, realizations ect.

Says whom?


Says me! And what I know to be right.

So you don't pray, right?


Where did this come from?

You have already established that you want me to see how ridiculous my faith is, and want me to abandon it, but why?



-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 5:09 PM on May 4, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Would you say that all taoists are spirit dead?
No, why?
Because they don't believe in God.

What makes the Christian hallucination more worthy of consideration than any of the other hundreds of collective hallucinations?
It is just believed that many of the so called hallucinations are supernatural in origin, that is just how it is.
1) You didn't answer the question.
2) Believed by whom?
3) What does "that is just how it is" mean?

What's the new way of thinking the rule that a raped girl must marry her rapist?
Much of the new way of thinking was moving from surface actions, to changing your heart.
Aha... And your answer?

John is supposed to share the new way of seeing. So what about 2 John 1:10?

John says that i'm the antichrist. Would you agree?
You? Definitely not. You have not displayed enough wisdom to even be considered. However, you could have been deceived by him, and because you now walk the path of him, you have become his servant without knowing it.
<< 2 John 1:7 >>

International Standard Version (©2008)
For many deceivers have gone out into the world. They refuse to acknowledge Jesus the Messiah as having become human. Any such person is a deceiver and an antichrist.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Some say "the antichrist" and some say "an antichrist".

What's the deep level of "Go to that town, kill men, women and children, except for one or two little girls for each soldier, to rape them as you please"?
Where is this in the bible?
Zechariah, Judges, Numbers, Deuteronomy...

You should really read the Bible.

Why did Yahweh come up with a plan that seemed so incredible (hard to believe) to the smart/educated?
I'm not God, I don't know, but about half of all scientists are religious.
What's your source?

Anyway, it depends on
1) the definition of "religious"; and
2) what they really believe.

It doesn't depend on the tags they like to give themselves.

I know several scientists. None of them are religious.

And you've not even attempted to establish that being religious equals believing in Yahweh's plans.

Didn't Yahweh know this?

Wait... What's the relation between Yahweh and the Bible?
God inspired those who wrote the bible, the bible is God's message, but since God did not write it or had people transcribe it word for word it mustn't be read as so.
What's your basis?
Who's to decide which parts are symbolic?

Anyway, that's really confusing.

Didn't Yahweh know this?

It is not simple, but the basic idea is; evil, which is condemned by God is thus sin.
Does that exclude murder, rape, pillaging, slavery, killing children, and all of those horrible things done in the Bible with his implicit or explicit consent?

God is not evil, therefore evil does not come from God.
Therefore???

That's a word used in logic. You're using none.

Apples are not insects. Therefore worms don't come from apples.

Books are real. Therefore fiction doesn't come from books.

So you don't believe it's (bible) His word?
What do you mean by "word"?
A concept expressed through symbols, written or spoken.

Do you believe the Bible is Yahweh's word?

Where does the rest come from?
Personal experience, prayer, realizations ect.
No reasoning?

God has a plan for everyone, and everyone must play their part.
So you don't pray, right?
Where did this come from?
From the simplest of reasonings.

If Yahweh has a plan for everyone, what are you asking by praying? That he forgets about his plan and gives you special treatment?

If Yahweh has a plan for everyone, and some sell their souls to the Devil or whatever you want to call it... Did Yahweh plan that too?

Or does he fail?

You have already established that you want me to see how ridiculous my faith is, and want me to abandon it, but why?
Because it's a lie that hurts people.


(Edited by wisp 5/5/2009 at 12:20 AM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:15 AM on May 5, 2009 | IP
Zucadragon

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I think christianity in general isn't a lie that hurts people, its just that what creationists turned it into that makes it a large lie.

I personally don't believe in "God" as described in the bible, and I most certainly don't believe everything in this book is right. The book is written by humans in a time where some very amoral things were normal, and the people in that age thought they were normal, and there were those who felt they were inspired by god while writing about some of those horrible things.

Still though, it's a book full of experience, if anything, there are different views in different directions and if you keep in mind that the morals back then, were different.. You can use the horrible and the good stories to basically enrich your life.
 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 03:39 AM on May 5, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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First, this will probably be me last post for a while, go finals!

Quote from wisp at 12:15 AM on May 5, 2009 :
Would you say that all taoists are spirit dead?
No, why?
Because they don't believe in God.


You don't have to believe in God to have your spirit be alive. Your spirit could be alive.

What makes the Christian hallucination more worthy of consideration than any of the other hundreds of collective hallucinations?
It is just believed that many of the so called hallucinations are supernatural in origin, that is just how it is.
1)
You didn't answer the question.


I don't think that just because they are Christian means that it is worth more than any other hallucination of any other deity from any other person. But I have heard, of what you would call a hallucination, where I have been convinced that it was supernatural in origin.

2) Believed by whom?


I thought that would have been obvious; other Christians.

3) What does "that is just how it is" mean?


There is no rhymer reason why, it is a belief, there is no hard evidence, that is just how it is, yet many believe.

What's the new way of thinking the rule that a raped girl must marry her rapist?
Much of the new way of thinking was moving from surface actions, to changing your heart.
Aha... And your answer?


Sorry about the last response, I was in a hurry and didn't read it right lol. No wonder you were confused. I don't think there necessarily was a new way of thinking about it, not every law changed. However, I think this is a cultural teaching in the bible, and not something to be carried into the future with.


John is supposed to share the new way of seeing. So what about 2 John 1:10?

John says that i'm the antichrist. Would you agree?
You? Definitely not. You have not displayed enough wisdom to even be considered. However, you could have been deceived by him, and because you now walk the path of him, you have become his servant without knowing it.
<< 2 John 1:7 >>

International Standard Version (©2008)
For many deceivers have gone out into the world. They refuse to acknowledge Jesus the Messiah as having become human. Any such person is a deceiver and an antichrist.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Some say "the antichrist" and some say "an antichrist".


I could be wrong, but I think it is an allusion to the fact that all those who are Christian consider themselves to be part of the body of Christ, thus connected to Christ and everyone else who believes. So perhaps the anti-Christ is the same way, if you are a follower of him, you are connected to him and can be called an anti-Christ.

What's the deep level of "Go to that town, kill men, women and children, except for one or two little girls for each soldier, to rape them as you please"?
Where is this in the bible?
Zechariah, Judges, Numbers, Deuteronomy...

You should really read the Bible.


Indeed you know the passages better than me, but I think you fail to grasp the message of Christianity and the interpretations of the bible accepted by the majority of Christians which gives you a false sense of what the majority of Christians believe, or should believe based upon the bible.

Why did Yahweh come up with a plan that seemed so incredible (hard to believe) to the smart/educated?
I'm not God, I don't know, but about half of all scientists are religious.
What's your source?

Anyway, it depends on
1) the definition of "religious"; and
2) what they really believe.

It doesn't depend on the tags they like to give themselves.

I know several scientists. None of them are religious.


Out of curiosity I looked it up on google, surprise no one was consistent. I saw everything from about 1/3 to 2/3 of natural scientists say that they believe in God. I take this to mean it really is around half of all scientists say that they believe in God.

And I know some scientists that are Christian, and if you look for a list of scientists who believe you can find one on wiki and other sources as well.

Not to sure what you mean with "2)what they really believe". I don't think they misunderstand the question, and the response that they give are accurate to what they hold true.

And you've not even attempted to establish that being religious equals believing in Yahweh's plans.


Why would I? But it seems that just about every Christian would believe that God has a plan for them and every other person on the planet. Whether they follow through on God's plan for them or not is up to that individual.

Didn't Yahweh know this?

Wait... What's the relation between Yahweh and the Bible?
God inspired those who wrote the bible, the bible is God's message, but since God did not write it or had people transcribe it word for word it mustn't be read as so.
What's your basis?
Who's to decide which parts are symbolic?[/color=teal]


All scripture is open to interpretation, literature 101; it is the reader that makes the meaning of the text, not the writer. But the Church, sometimes called the Kingdom of Heaven, has standard things that are considered symbolic like Genesis, and other things that must be taken literally like the resurrection of Jesus. I would say it is mostly cannon that determines what the purpose of an individual scripture is and how it should be read.

[color=teal]Does that exclude murder, rape, pillaging, slavery, killing children, and all of those horrible things done in the Bible with his implicit or explicit consent?[/color=teal]


There are laws and stories that aren't the most uplifting. But I think that you have to look at the bible as a whole in order to understand what each of these things are saying. And it seems to me that you have a very narrow view of how Christianity, and religion in general should be practiced by those of faith.

[color=teal]So you don't believe it's (bible) His word?
What do you mean by "word"?
A concept expressed through symbols, written or spoken.


If your question is; 'is the bible the way God expresses his concepts to us'. Than my answer is yes. But it is not the only way. The bible is one part of how Christians understand and know God.

Do you believe the Bible is Yahweh's word?


From the context above, yes.

Where does the rest come from?
Personal experience, prayer, realizations ect.
[quoteNo reasoning?


There is reasoning, but not all of it is rational. There is the irrational as well.

God has a plan for everyone, and everyone must play their part.
So you don't pray, right?
Where did this come from?
From the simplest of reasonings.


Okay, I'm assuming your logic is; 'it doesn't matter what we do because everyone "must" play their part, so it doesn't matter if I pray or not, the same is going to happen anyway.'
This is not what I'm saying. As before, God has a part for each one of us, and we can choose not to do his will.

If Yahweh has a plan for everyone, what are you asking by praying? That he forgets about his plan and gives you special treatment?


Not at all, here you demonstrate how little you actually know about the Christian faith. There are many reasons why people pray, one of them is to ask God to help you understand what he wants you to do.

If Yahweh has a plan for everyone, and some sell their souls to the Devil or whatever you want to call it... Did Yahweh plan that too?

Or does he fail?


I cannot speak for God on this matter, but I can see how some people selling their souls could be a part of God's plan. Perhaps Saul was one of those people. But I can also imagine that there are many souls that God does not want to be sold that are.

You have already established that you want me to see how ridiculous my faith is, and want me to abandon it, but why?
[color=teal]Because it's a lie that hurts people.


How does it hurt me? Or how does my faith hurt anyone around me? Outside the context of the fundamentalist movement, how does faith alone hurt anyone?

p.s. There might be some quoting errors on my part, if there are I apologize in advance.

(Edited by Fencer27 5/5/2009 at 05:48 AM).


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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)  


Posts: 551 | Posted: 05:40 AM on May 5, 2009 |
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Quote from Fencer27 at 05:40 AM on May 5, 2009 :
How does it hurt me? Or how does my faith hurt anyone around me? Outside the context of the fundamentalist movement, how does faith alone hurt anyone?


The only reason this forum and topic exist is the impact of the fundamentalist movement and it's attack on reality.




-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 08:05 AM on May 5, 2009 | IP
wisp

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First, this will probably be me last post for a while, go finals!
Some sport i guess.

You don't have to believe in God to have your spirit be alive. Your spirit could be alive.
I asked you before how you could check for your spirit's vital signs. Believing in God was a way. Then i assumed that if you didn't believe in God, your spirit had kicked the bucket.
My mistake then. But you were not clear.

I don't think that just because they are Christian means that it is worth more than any other hallucination of any other deity from any other person.
Oh, ok. That's an answer.
Is there any reasons to pick Christianity instead of any of the other many religions?

But I have heard, of what you would call a hallucination, where I have been convinced that it was supernatural in origin.
Oh. Go figure.


It is just believed that many of the so called hallucinations are supernatural in origin, that is just how it is.
Believed by whom?
I thought that would have been obvious; other Christians.
It's not obvious to me. Not at all.
Perhaps it would be if you said "the so called christian hallucinations".
I thought you were being general.

So, people who share the same kind of hallucination believe that their hallucinations are supernatural... Right?
I know you basically said that each one believes that the OTHER guy's hallucination is supernatural, but if the other guy has the same kind of hallucination that I have, well... Sounds like i'm trying to convince myself by believing the other guy...

Sorry about the last response, I was in a hurry and didn't read it right lol.
Ok. You're a busy person, and still you take from your time to answer me. Thanks.
No wonder you were confused. I don't think there necessarily was a new way of thinking about it, not every law changed.
Ok. Where's the criterion?
However, I think this is a cultural teaching in the bible, and not something to be carried into the future with.
Well, i agree. That's what i think about the whole Bible.


<< 2 John 1:7 >>
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
I could be wrong, but I think it is an allusion to the fact that all those who are Christian consider themselves to be part of the body of Christ, thus connected to Christ and everyone else who believes.
John's clearly talking about those who are NOT christians.
So perhaps the anti-Christ is the same way, if you are a follower of him, you are connected to him and can be called an anti-Christ.
Stop twisting it. It's quite clear. If you disagree with John just say so.
I've gone out into the world (i guess) not acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ.

Jeshua was a cool, great, smart and spiritual guy. I condemn his hideous death, that had NO PURPOSE.

Do you have any doubts that John would call me "antichrist"?

Indeed you know the passages better than me, but I think you fail to grasp the message of Christianity
Of course you'll believe that!

I believe that it's you who fails to grasp it, because you fell for it.

It's very clear from the outside:

"Follow these rules, don't think, don't listen to those who think, fear the punishment, there's a great reward but in the afterlife".

and the interpretations of the bible accepted by the majority of Christians
I don't fail to grasp them. They're obvious rationalizations.

Ok, i'm not humble. I try, but i fail.
However i think i'm pretty objective when i doubt that the majority of Christians understand something that i've missed.

which gives you a false sense of what the majority of Christians believe,
No.
or should believe based upon the bible.
Ok. That's quite easy.
They should believe in the Bible, or drop the nickname "Christian". Preferably the second.

Out of curiosity I looked it up on google, surprise no one was consistent. I saw everything from about 1/3 to 2/3 of natural scientists say that they believe in God. I take this to mean it really is around half of all scientists say that they believe in God.
I'd take it to mean that the tests were unreliable.

Oh, i forgot, it also depends on your definition of "scientist".

And I know some scientists that are Christian, and if you look for a list of scientists who believe you can find one on wiki and other sources as well.
I pass. You're blurring the subject.

Not to sure what you mean with "2)what they really believe".
That's because you forgot what we're talking about.

Let me refresh your memory:
Can you be saved after knowing about Jesus without believing a word of it?
I think any Christian would say no to this.
Then why did Yahweh made it so hard to believe for smart people?
If you tell me that he walked on water, turned water into whine, cured people (even from a distance), that his mother got magically impregnated by her ear, and that he died and resurrected, i'm not buying. It's indeed quite hard for smart people to believe that.

You've blurred the subject to "Many scientists believe in God" and "Many scientists call themselves Christians".

I do believe in God. And i'm still not buying christianism.

Why did Yahweh come up with a plan that seemed so incredible (hard to believe) to the smart/educated?
I'm not God, I don't know,
That was the answer.
but about half of all scientists are religious.
That's when you went adrift.

I don't think they misunderstand the question,
You've not presented the question.
"Do you believe in God?"
Or perhaps "Are you a Christian?"
Or perhaps "Do you believe that the physical reality is all there is to our existence?" and checked the "religious" box when they said "no" (so instantly you get every quantum theorist to qualify as a believer).

and the response that they give are accurate to what they hold true.
The responses must have varied. The question seems more relevant.

Actually you've not even said if you mean "in the USA" or "in the world" or where.

Basically you said nothing. A very inaccurate nothing.

There's a site that lists religious Nobel Prize winners.
Four of them turned out to be no Nobel Prize winners.
One of the remaining two is a non-believer that goes to church for social reasons.
I don't know the other guy. But it would be just one out of several hundreds of Nobel Prize winners.

Richard Dawkins in God Delusion:
A study in the leading journal Nature by Larson and Witham in 1998 showed that of those American scientists considered eminent enough by their peers to have been elected to the National Academy of Sciences (equivalent to being a Fellow of the Royal Society in Britain) only about 7 per cent believe in a personal God.

This overwhelming preponderance of atheists is almost the exact opposite of the profile of the American population at large, of whom more than 90 per cent are believers in some sort of super- natural being. The figure for less eminent scientists, not elected to the National Academy, is intermediate. As with the more distinguished sample, religious believers are in a minority, but a less dramatic minority of about 40 per cent. It is completely as I would expect that American scientists are less religious than the American public generally, and that the most distinguished scientists are the least religious of all. What is remarkable is the polar opposition between the religiosity of the American public at large and the atheism of the intellectual elite.


And you've not even attempted to establish that being religious equals believing in Yahweh's plans.
Why would I?
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT!!!

My question is why Yahweh made plans that are so hard to believe to the smart and educated!

Yahweh's plans!!!

Otherwise, what are you answering? Are you writing random statements?

But it seems that just about every Christian would believe that God has a plan for them and every other person on the planet. Whether they follow through on God's plan for them or not is up to that individual.
Does Yahweh change his plans?

If he does, he's not all knowing.

If he doesn't, your statement makes no sense.

Because many people have no children. So either Yahweh has failed plans for the unborn children, or he planned people's celibacy/infertility/etc.

And if it's up to you to follow Yahweh's plans, and he planned that you had no children, your children will be out of his plans!!
Your sons, grandsons, grand grand grand grand grandsons...

Christian beliefs are a big blur. They tend not to know what to believe about specific (IMPORTANT) issues. They pick and choose, but they don't make sense.

They have tried to make sense for 1.6k years. Nobody ever could.
And you don't seem to be the one that will.

God inspired those who wrote the bible, the bible is God's message, but since God did not write it or had people transcribe it word for word it mustn't be read as so.
Would you say that the inspired writers screwed it when they said that Yahweh commanded ugly things like stoning people to death for violating the sabbath?

Were they mistaken or malicious?

All scripture is open to interpretation, literature 101; it is the reader that makes the meaning of the text, not the writer.
I'll take that to mean that you admit that christianism makes no sense.

I'm the reader, so...

But the Church,
Which one?
sometimes called the Kingdom of Heaven,
What??? I had no idea...
has standard things that are considered symbolic like Genesis, and other things that must
Must? In order to what?
be taken literally like the resurrection of Jesus.
Yeap. All the important things about it (the date, did Yahweh do it, was Jesus Yahweh himself, did Jesus have superpowers...) were decided by vote, 1684 years ago, in the First Council of Nicaea, arranged by Constantine, whose only purpose was to bring unity to the Roman Empire.

And now you buy it, no questions asked.

I would say it is mostly cannon that determines what the purpose of an individual scripture is and how it should be read.
Yes. Vote. And people buying it.

Does that exclude murder, rape, pillaging, slavery, killing children, and all of those horrible things done in the Bible with his implicit or explicit consent?
There are laws and stories that aren't the most uplifting. But I think that you have to look at the bible as a whole in order to understand what each of these things are saying.
What's your basis?

You don't understand them, or do you?

And it seems to me that you have a very narrow view of how Christianity, and religion in general should be practiced by those of faith.
Can you have a broad view of a narrow religion?

If your question is; 'is the bible the way God expresses his concepts to us'.
Ok, yes.
Than
*Then.
my answer is yes.
Ok, then what about the rape, stoning to death, pillaging, genocide, slavery, etc?
But it is not the only way.
I don't care. Not right now. Don't start new topics. I'll refute them too, and you'll have no time to answer my refutations.
The bible is one part of how Christians understand and know God.
Yeah, the part that doesn't matter. The part that must be seen in the light of reason, culture, emotion and other aspects of life that have little to do with religion. The part that doesn't stand. The part that gives Christians their name.

If any part of Christianism makes sense, it's not original.

Okay, I'm assuming your logic is; 'it doesn't matter what we do because everyone "must" play their part, so it doesn't matter if I pray or not, the same is going to happen anyway.'
No. I'm saying that that's what you should ponder.

This is not what I'm saying.
Of course. "This" makes sense. You don't.
As before, God has a part for each one of us, and we can choose not to do his will.
As before, that makes no sense.

If Yahweh planned the birth of every human being, then there's at least ONE thing that the parents could not choose. So where's that free will? Where's that choice?

If not, his plans change.

If his plans change, he doesn't know everything.

If he doesn't know everything, he's not God.

You'll find no way out of it. At least none that makes sense.

If Yahweh has a plan for everyone, what are you asking by praying? That he forgets about his plan and gives you special treatment?
Not at all, here you demonstrate how little you actually know about the Christian faith.
Hahaha! More than the vast majority of christians, i would say. xD

You'd like to think otherwise, because you're a christian (or at least you like to call yourself that, even if you don't believe in the Bible, probably don't believe in angels, demons and witches, and have little respect for what good John said).

To me, if you don't believe in Evolution, you don't understand Evolution.
With christianism it's quite the opposite.

There are many reasons why people pray, one of them is to ask God to help you understand what he wants you to do.
You think i don't know that?

That's smarter than asking for things, but still makes no sense if you believe that Yahweh has a plan for everyone (well, perhaps nothing makes sense if you believe that). Because you're still asking for a change. You're still asking. For yourself. In spite of Yahweh's plans.

If Yahweh has a plan for everyone, and some sell their souls to the Devil or whatever you want to call it... Did Yahweh plan that too?

Or does he fail?
I cannot speak for God on this matter,
Oh.

In what matter can you speak for God?

Isn't christianism all about speaking for God?
but I can see how some people selling their souls could be a part of God's plan.
You can?

How?

Perhaps Saul was one of those people. But I can also imagine that there are many souls that God does not want to be sold that are.
So is the Devil a part of his plan?

Or did his plan change at any point?

You have already established that you want me to see how ridiculous my faith is, and want me to abandon it, but why?
Because it's a lie that hurts people.
How does it hurt me?
Hum... By blinding you. And giving you biases against people smart enough to realize that you're deluded. Preventing you from reasoning. And probably preventing you from having openly homosexual friends.

Perhaps you're spirit dead in a sense more real than that of christianism. Perhaps it prevents your spiritual growth.
It all sounds quite possible.

Or how does my faith hurt anyone around me?
It's possible that you measure people according to christianism, and that you pass judgments in spite of what Jeshua said.
It's quite possible that you contribute to an environment of discrimination, self-righteousness  and hate (in spite of Jeshua speaking about love).

Discrimination lies at the core of Christianity.
Jeshua does not.

Outside the context of the fundamentalist movement, how does faith alone hurt anyone?
By making you make wrong choices, of course.

Imagine that you won't have an eternal life after you die. Just for one second.
Would you make the same choices?

Actually i don't really believe that your faith is strong enough for you to assume that everything will be ok after you die.
I believe that you're afraid.
I believe that you look both sides when crossing the street.
I believe that if your religious leaders told you to kill, you wouldn't.

I believe that you're lucky enough to be a reasonably good person, and a lousy christian.

My friend's mother in law doesn't do some things she'd like to do, because she'll do them after the apocalypse. She'll have more time then.
She leads a sad life of sacrifice now, but it'll be ok. Some salsa teacher will survive the apocalypse.
Some libraries will stand.
Perhaps her body fat will disappear. If not, she'll start exercising.

Do you get it?

Saying that faith is ok is just what fundamentalists need.
All it takes to fly into the twin towers is the right amount of faith.
It's the most preeminent fundamentalist trait.

You're a fencer because you don't have what it takes to be a fundamentalist (luckily), or a rational person (sadly).

p.s. There might be some quoting errors on my part,
Yeah, like in every post. xD
if there are I apologize in advance.
Ok, no problem. But you might want to check "Yes" just after "Preview before posting?".

P.S. So what about 2 John 1:10?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 4:41 PM on May 5, 2009 | IP
wisp

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There's a site that lists religious Nobel Prize winners.
Four of them turned out to be no Nobel Prize winners.
Oh, the site listed 6.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 4:45 PM on May 5, 2009 | IP
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Quote from wisp at 4:41 PM on May 5, 2009 :
Some sport i guess.


Nope, school. Would have wrote back sooner but was too busy celebrating recently.

Is there any reasons to pick Christianity instead of any of the other many religions?


It's not something that you pick, it is something that you are drawn to. Whether you decide to act on that connection or not is up to you.

So, people who share the same kind of hallucination believe that their hallucinations are supernatural... Right?


I guess, I don't know too many people that have "hallucinated", as you like to call it, without the help of drugs. But it is more then just, I hallucinated A and so did you therefore it must be true. From what I know I would say that most people would think their "hallucination" was supernatural before they met the other person.

I don't think there necessarily was a new way of thinking about it, not every law changed.
Ok. Where's the criterion?


There is no set criteria, the Bible's teaching is complex when you go into finer details. I'm not a biblical scholar, or a priest, pastor, minister, bishop, or any one else with the knowledge or education to answer you on every point you make about the bible. If you have something specific I would advise going to a church if you really want an answer to something.


<< 2 John 1:7 >>
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
I could be wrong, but I think it is an allusion to the fact that all those who are Christian consider themselves to be part of the body of Christ, thus connected to Christ and everyone else who believes.
John's clearly talking about those who are NOT christians.


I am aware of that...

So perhaps the anti-Christ is the same way, if you are a follower of him, you are connected to him and can be called an anti-Christ.
Stop twisting it. It's quite clear. If you disagree with John just say so.
I've gone out into the world (i guess) not acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ.


I am not twisting it, if you don't understand what I said read it again or ask and I'll try to make it more clear. I don't disagree with the verse, I just don't take it completely literal.

Jeshua was a cool, great, smart and spiritual guy. I condemn his hideous death, that had NO PURPOSE.


Have you heard of atheists for Jesus?

Do you have any doubts that John would call me "antichrist"?


No.


I believe that it's you who fails to grasp it, because you fell for it.

It's very clear from the outside:

"Follow these rules, don't think, don't listen to those who think, fear the punishment, there's a great reward but in the afterlife".


You have a warped view of Christianity. I think you have generalized Christianity with creationism. Am I wrong?

Ok, i'm not humble. I try, but i fail.
However i think i'm pretty objective when i doubt that the majority of Christians understand something that i've missed.


This back and forth serves no purpose other to waste time, so for this I say we agree to disagree.


Out of curiosity I looked it up on google, surprise no one was consistent. I saw everything from about 1/3 to 2/3 of natural scientists say that they believe in God. I take this to mean it really is around half of all scientists say that they believe in God.
I'd take it to mean that the tests were unreliable.


What test, it was a poll?

Oh, i forgot, it also depends on your definition of "scientist".


I did say "natural scientist" Ya know, biology, chemistry, physics, geology, astronomy, ect. But the social sciences are higher at above 50% to around 2/3, and some were close to 3/4.

And I know some scientists that are Christian, and if you look for a list of scientists who believe you can find one on wiki and other sources as well.
I pass. You're blurring the subject.


Me? Come on? You were the one who started this by saying you know scientists and none of them were religious, remember? I just stated that I know scientists that are religious, and as a supplement I said you could go online and see the names of some more prominent scientists that are religious.

If you tell me that he walked on water, turned water into whine, cured people (even from a distance), that his mother got magically impregnated by her ear, and that he died and resurrected, i'm not buying. It's indeed quite hard for smart people to believe that.


Yet many do. You don't have to be a scientist to be smart, scientists are by nature skeptical, so it doesn't surprise me that scientists are more likely to be atheists than other people in different professions.

You've blurred the subject to "Many scientists believe in God" and "Many scientists call themselves Christians".


I would say both are true, since none give a number. And I would say that those that call themselves Christian are a sub-set of that population.

I do believe in God. And i'm still not buying christianism.


I wasn't trying to proselytise you, but okay. Out of curiosity what religion are, and what is "God" to you?


Actually you've not even said if you mean "in the USA" or "in the world" or where.


I didn't did I. In the world I believe it is around 40% of natural scientists doing real research believe in God or the supernatural, while I don't have a precise number for the U.S. I know it is higher, probably somewhere between 50-66%. Would you accept these numbers, if not why?

There's a site that lists religious Nobel Prize winners.
Four of them turned out to be no Nobel Prize winners.
One of the remaining two is a non-believer that goes to church for social reasons.
I don't know the other guy. But it would be just one out of several hundreds of Nobel Prize winners.


Interesting, specifically what point are you trying to make?

[color=teal]And you've not even attempted to establish that being religious equals believing in Yahweh's plans.
Why would I?
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT!!!

My question is why Yahweh made plans that are so hard to believe to the smart and educated!

Yahweh's plans!!!


By plans do you mean the bible? What plans are you talking about?

Does Yahweh change his plans?


No

If he doesn't, your statement makes no sense.

Because many people have no children. So either Yahweh has failed plans for the unborn children, or he planned people's celibacy/infertility/etc.

And if it's up to you to follow Yahweh's plans, and he planned that you had no children, your children will be out of his plans!!
Your sons, grandsons, grand grand grand grand grandsons...


He has plans for all those people, but God's plans does not equate to them actually happening.

Christian beliefs are a big blur. They tend not to know what to believe about specific (IMPORTANT) issues. They pick and choose, but they don't make sense.

They have tried to make sense for 1.6k years. Nobody ever could.
And you don't seem to be the one that will.


Perhaps God's message is made in a way that it is hard to understand in full, but easy to understand at the basic level. That way the meaning of the specific messages can change from culture to culture while retaining that which is necessary to be considered Christian.

Would you say that the inspired writers screwed it when they said that Yahweh commanded ugly things like stoning people to death for violating the sabbath?


No, but obviously people that take your view on it will be troubled by it.

Were they mistaken or malicious?


No, you just need to read it in context.

Yeap. All the important things about it (the date, did Yahweh do it, was Jesus Yahweh himself, did Jesus have superpowers...) were decided by vote, 1684 years ago, in the First Council of Nicaea, arranged by Constantine, whose only purpose was to bring unity to the Roman Empire.

And now you buy it, no questions asked.


The last section is interesting, "no questions asked." Did you ask any questions when people told you about evolution, I know I did, and it had nothing to do with religion.


Does that exclude murder, rape, pillaging, slavery, killing children, and all of those horrible things done in the Bible with his implicit or explicit consent?
There are laws and stories that aren't the most uplifting. But I think that you have to look at the bible as a whole in order to understand what each of these things are saying.
What's your basis?


That you don't read a chapter in a book and decide what it means without reading the whole thing.

You don't understand them, or do you?


Again, I don't know everything. Should I disbelieve in evolution because you can't answer all my questions on the subject?

Can you have a broad view of a narrow religion?


Yes, Christianity is narrow, that is why there are hundreds of different sects with people from all walks of life.

If Yahweh planned the birth of every human being, then there's at least ONE thing that the parents could not choose. So where's that free will? Where's that choice?


Very nice, half of all your questions are redundant from what I can tell.

You'd like to think otherwise, because you're a christian (or at least you like to call yourself that, even if you don't believe in the Bible, probably don't believe in angels, demons and witches, and have little respect for what good John said).


Yes, and all that is necessary for one to be Christian? Interesting, I know there are some bishops out there that would disagree with you. Just as a little side note, I saw an interview with a bishop who said that you don't have to believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian. It is not essential to the faith.

To me, if you don't believe in Evolution, you don't understand Evolution.
With christianism it's quite the opposite.


To me, if you understand Christianity you are either a Christian or you don't mind that others around you are.

There are many reasons why people pray, one of them is to ask God to help you understand what he wants you to do.
You think i don't know that?


You've implied that only people pray to have God miraculously intervene with their lives to give them a nice house, lots of money, or kill their evil boss who wouldn't give you a break. If you know the answer than why ask me? Unless your real goal is to deny all the non-insane parts of Christianity and only validate those that are insane and probably not part of mainstream Christianity in order for me to give up my faith.

That's smarter than asking for things, but still makes no sense if you believe that Yahweh has a plan for everyone (well, perhaps nothing makes sense if you believe that). Because you're still asking for a change. You're still asking. For yourself. In spite of Yahweh's plans.


Again, God's plans doesn't equate into them actually happening.

[color=teal]If Yahweh has a plan for everyone, and some sell their souls to the Devil or whatever you want to call it... Did Yahweh plan that too?

Or does he fail?
I cannot speak for God on this matter,
Oh.

In what matter can you speak for God?


None, for I am not God and God hasn't told me to send this message to X, Y, or Z.

Isn't christianism all about speaking for God?


No, it is about a personal relationship with God.

but I can see how some people selling their souls could be a part of God's plan.
You can?

How?


Perhaps Saul was one of those people. But I can also imagine that there are many souls that God does not want to be sold that are.
So is the Devil a part of his plan?


I'm sure it is partly, but not fully.

Or did his plan change at any point?


plans do not change.
You have already established that you want me to see how ridiculous my faith is, and want me to abandon it, but why?
Because it's a lie that hurts people.
How does it hurt me?
Hum... By blinding you. And giving you biases against people smart enough to realize that you're deluded. Preventing you from reasoning.


You should meet my OCD friend, you'd like him. He think all religions are corrupt institutions to gather the masses to delude them into giving the religious elite money.

Blind, so I don't have the truth in that there is no God. But I could say the same for you. Haven't meet too many people that said I was deluded, although I have, but none of them ever said I was incapable of reason.

And probably preventing you from having openly homosexual friends.


Interesting stance, you do know that there are multiple stances on homosexuality among the Christian religion, right? Mine just happens to be of the more liberal approach, and I do have several openly gay friends who I don't deny that are my friends.

Perhaps you're spirit dead in a sense more real than that of christianism. Perhaps it prevents your spiritual growth.
It all sounds quite possible.


I don't quite follow, please explain.

It's possible that you measure people according to christianism, and that you pass judgments in spite of what Jeshua said.


According to Christianity? In what way, that if they are a Christian then they are better than the atheist? If so you got that one wrong. Or if you meant that on the standard that everyone should be loving and caring towards each other than no again on judgement, but that is how I measure people if that is the right word to use.

It's quite possible that you contribute to an environment of discrimination, self-righteousness  and hate (in spite of Jeshua speaking about love).

Discrimination lies at the core of Christianity.
Jeshua does not.


Interesting. What is the basis of this claim?

Outside the context of the fundamentalist movement, how does faith alone hurt anyone?
By making you make wrong choices, of course.


What kinds of wrong choices?

Imagine that you won't have an eternal life after you die. Just for one second.
Would you make the same choices?


If I 100% knew that there was no afterlife? No, but my character would not change.

Actually i don't really believe that your faith is strong enough for you to assume that everything will be ok after you die.
I believe that you're afraid.


I am not afraid of death. I do not know what awaits after death, but I do believe that it will be okay.

I believe that you look both sides when crossing the street.


Of course, what is faith if it is never tested?

I believe that if your religious leaders told you to kill, you wouldn't.


Correct, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't kill them for some other reason.

I believe that you're lucky enough to be a reasonably good person, and a lousy christian.


Just a tiny bit paradoxical there. And I do believe that a good Christian would be a good person, but you can be good and not a Christian.

My friend's mother in law doesn't do some things she'd like to do, because she'll do them after the apocalypse. She'll have more time then.
She leads a sad life of sacrifice now, but it'll be ok. Some salsa teacher will survive the apocalypse.
Some libraries will stand.
Perhaps her body fat will disappear. If not, she'll start exercising.


That is a little strange, even for Christians.

Do you get it?

Saying that faith is ok is just what fundamentalists need.
All it takes to fly into the twin towers is the right amount of faith.
It's the most preeminent fundamentalist trait.


Umm, okay. I'm not a fundamentalist and I think you would agree. Many mainstream religious people and organizations condemn the actions of fundamentalists when it comes to violence.

You're a fencer because you don't have what it takes to be a fundamentalist (luckily), or a rational person (sadly).


Interesting, never been called an irrational person before. I've made and done irrational things in my life, but no one has ever said that I was irrational as a whole.


P.S. So what about 2 John 1:10?


It was meant as a private letter and as such must be read accordingly. You are an Antichrist in that you accept his message and try to de-convert people away from the faith. But this does not mean that if I see you on the street I should never have you over for supper. Despite what you would like Christians to believe, the bible is not always literal in what it says, and the message changes according to circumstance.



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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 03:07 AM on May 20, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from Apoapsis at 08:05 AM on May 5, 2009 :

The only reason this forum and topic exist is the impact of the fundamentalist movement and it's attack on reality.



Yet, de facto, I'm being questioned on Christianity in general, not fundamentalist Christianity.


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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 03:11 AM on May 20, 2009 | IP
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Hey, welcome back! ^_^

Thanks for answering. Will reply after picking my kid from the kinder.

See ya!



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Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 10:25 AM on May 20, 2009 | IP
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Is there any reason to pick Christianity instead of any of the other many religions?
It's not something that you pick, it is something that you are drawn to.
I happen to agree. I wouldn't have guessed that you think that way.

Whether you decide to act on that connection or not is up to you.
Me?
I'm more drawn towards Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism. They are far more reasonable, and lack bigotry.

I guess, I don't know too many people that have "hallucinated", as you like to call it, without the help of drugs. But it is more then just, I hallucinated A and so did you therefore it must be true. From what I know I would say that most people would think their "hallucination" was supernatural before they met the other person.
So, since you have not hallucinated, by your own statistical rule you wouldn't regard their hallucinations as supernatural?
Otherwise i don't think i follow.

There is no set criteria, the Bible's teaching is complex when you go into finer details.
Why?

Your answer will probably be "I don't know". Well, i do know.
Because it makes no sense! Because many people wrote it, and they didn't necessarily agree! Because God did not have anything to do with the biblical text anymore than with Alice in Wonderland! Because it's full of mistakes! Because they took myths from other cultures and tried to weave them together! Because it's pretty random, and it completely lacks a plan! Because it doesn't reflect divinity at all! Easy answer!

I'm not a biblical scholar, or a priest, pastor, minister, bishop, or any one else with the knowledge or education to answer you on every point you make about the bible.
Don't be so hard on yourself. There's not one person in the world who can answer to them and make sense at the same time.

There are lots and lots of different (and contradictory) answers that try to make sense. Some succeed partially, but always contradicting something else in the Bible.

If you have something specific I would advise going to a church if you really want an answer to something.
Been there. Done that.

So perhaps the anti-Christ is the same way, if you are a follower of him,
I don't know "him". I guess you don't mean literally.
Can you speak literally for a moment, and tell me what you're talking about, so it's clear?
you are connected to him and can be called an anti-Christ.
Great... Can you explain that connection? Or is it supernatural???

I am not twisting it, if you don't understand what I said read it again or ask and I'll try to make it more clear.
Well, i thought i had understood. You could also speak clearly without my asking so.

Jeshua was a cool, great, smart and spiritual guy. I condemn his hideous death, that had NO PURPOSE.
Have you heard of atheists for Jesus?
Yes.

I believe that it's you who fails to grasp it, because you fell for it.

It's very clear from the outside:

"Follow these rules, don't think, don't listen to those who think, fear the punishment, there's a great reward but in the afterlife".
You have a warped view of Christianity.
Of course you believe that. You fell for it!
But i can back it up. You won't be able to back up your claim.
I think you have generalized Christianity with creationism. Am I wrong?
Very.
Creationism makes more sense. Some hope of biblical inerrancy makes more sense than the popular diluted christianism.

I say take it or leave it! Don't dilute it!

If you like to reason, why try to take something irrational and make it rational? Why not drop it altogether?

(...) i think i'm pretty objective when i doubt that the majority of Christians understand something that i've missed.
This back and forth serves no purpose other to waste time, so for this I say we agree to disagree.
What back and forth? I think i can back up everything i say.
And if it turns out that i can't, i'll take it back.

Christians don't understand Christianism.

Most of them are too arrogant to give the sincere answer "I don't know", so you (timbrx too) are better than the average. But you still don't understand.

The best the average christian does is dodge the question. But i don't let them dodge. So the final dodge is "Ask a priest", which translates to "Ask a better dodger". And they sure are!! My goodness!

-How do i know that Yahweh is for real?
-Because he doesn't deceive.
-What about Abraham? Didn't He make him believe that he had to kill his son?
-But He wanted to test Abraham.
-You can only test something if you ignore it, so you're not all knowing, but nevermind that. He still deceived him!
-But look at this passage: "God is good, God is great, and He wants you to be his bestest friend for everest".
-Yeah, yeah, very nice. But He still deceived Abraham!
-How so?
-He sent an angel to tell him a lie.
-But He wanted to test him.
-Through a lie.
-How so?
-It wasn't true that he had to kill his son, and God sent an angel to tell him something that wasn't true.
-Your heart is too closed to understand...

I get either that, or the "It's a metaphor" answer (that leaves the criterion to guess when it's metaphorical unaccounted for). Or the "perhaps" answer (leave so many possibilities open that refuting all of them would take a lot of time).

Dodgers. All of them.

Out of curiosity I looked it up on google, surprise no one was consistent. I saw everything from about 1/3 to 2/3 of natural scientists say that they believe in God. I take this to mean it really is around half of all scientists say that they believe in God.
I'd take it to mean that the tests were unreliable.
What test, it was a poll?
Oh, yeah! Sorry. Thinking in English consumes a lot of my mental RAM.

Oh, i forgot, it also depends on your definition of "scientist".
I did say "natural scientist" Ya know, biology, chemistry, physics, geology, astronomy, ect.
Yeah, you did say it (i had forgotten it before you said it, but it's still irrelevant). I don't know why you mention it. It doesn't make the concept of "scientist" any clearer.

Do undergraduate students qualify? When? Never? Always?

That's what i meant. But i wouldn't like discussing it. Just pointing out that it depends.
Perhaps the concept of "scientist" is very precise and objective. If so, i don't know it, and i apologize.

You're blurring the subject.
Me? Come on? You were the one who started this by saying you know scientists and none of them were religious, remember?
No need to remember. It's all written.
Here:
Why did Yahweh come up with a plan that seemed so incredible (hard to believe) to the smart/educated?
I'm not God, I don't know, but about half of all scientists are religious.
I know several scientists. None of them are religious.
So there.

(By the way, you've still not even attempted to establish that being religious equals believing in Yahweh's plans. And don't ask me "Why would I?")

From The God Delusion:
Dawkins
A study in the leading journal Nature by Larson and Witham in 1998 showed that of those American scientists considered eminent enough by their peers to have been elected to the National Academy of Sciences (equivalent to being a Fellow of the Royal Society in Britain) only about 7 per cent believe in a personal God.
And
As this book goes to press, my colleagues R. Elisabeth Cornwell and Michael Stirrat are writing up their comparable, but
more thorough, research on the religious opinions of the Fellows of the Royal Society (FRS). The authors' conclusions will be published in full later, but they have kindly allowed me to quote preliminary results here. They used a standard technique for scaling opinion, the Likert-type seven-point scale. All 1,074 Fellows of the Royal Society who possess an email address (the great majority) were polled, and about 23 per cent responded (a good figure for this kind
of study). They were offered various propositions, for example: 'I believe in a personal God, that is one who takes an interest in individuals, hears and answers prayers, is concerned with sin and transgressions, and passes judgement.' For each such proposition, they were invited to choose a number from 1 (strong disagreement) to 7 (strong agreement). It is a little hard to compare the results directly with the Larson and Witham study, because Larson and Witham offered their academicians only a three-point scale, not a seven-point scale, but the overall trend is the same. The over- whelming majority of FRS, like the overwhelming majority of US Academicians, are atheists. Only 3.3 per cent of the Fellows agreed
strongly with the statement that a personal god exists (i.e. chose 7 on the scale), while 78.8 per cent strongly disagreed (i.e. chose 1 on the scale). If you define 'believers' as those who chose 6 or 7, and if you define 'unbelievers' as those who chose 1 or 2, there were a massive 213 unbelievers and a mere 12 believers. Like Larson and Witham, and as also noted by Beit-Hallahmi and Argyle, Cornwell and Stirrat found a small but significant tendency for biological scientists to be even more atheistic than physical scientists.


I just stated that I know scientists that are religious, and as a supplement I said you could go online and see the names of some more prominent scientists that are religious.
I don't care about some! Examples are not important. Tendencies are.

And i was talking about this tendency!

The smarter you are, the less the chances that you're a Christian. That is a fact.

If you tell me that he walked on water, turned water into whine, cured people (even from a distance), that his mother got magically impregnated by her ear, and that he died and resurrected, i'm not buying. It's indeed quite hard for smart people to believe that.
Yet many do.
Stop it already!!
Dodging is not cool.

You don't have to be a scientist to be smart, scientists are by nature skeptical, so it doesn't surprise me that scientists are more likely to be atheists than other people in different professions.
Ok! This was exactly where i was driving at!

No, wait...
Do you deny that skepticism is smart?

I do believe in God. And i'm still not buying christianism.
I wasn't trying to proselytise you, but okay.
I didn't even mention you, but okay.
Out of curiosity what religion are, and what is "God" to you?
Religion? My own, or none at all (depending on your definition of "religion").

God is the ultimate reality. God is Love. God is knowledge. (Love is knowledge, knowledge is Love.) God is consciousness. God is the unbreakable law. God is bestowal. God is Unity. God is not so much what appears to your senses, but your senses. God is not so much something understandable, but your understanding. God is not so much what causes you to grow, but your growth.

There's a site that lists religious Nobel Prize winners (6).
Four of them turned out to be no Nobel Prize winners.
One of the remaining two is a non-believer that goes to church for social reasons.
I don't know the other guy. But it would be just one out of several hundreds of Nobel Prize winners.
Interesting, specifically what point are you trying to make?
Sigh... That the smarter you are the less the chances that you'll be religious.

And you've not even attempted to establish that being religious equals believing in Yahweh's plans.
Why would I?
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT!!!

My question is why Yahweh made plans that are so hard to believe to the smart and educated!

Yahweh's plans!!!
By plans do you mean the bible? What plans are you talking about?
Man, it's not me who says that Yahweh has plans.

But you probably believe that Yeshua's awful death (if that event was even real) was a part of Yahweh's plan.

I don't know the rest of your beliefs, but it's quite likely that you believe at least this.

And the smart/educated tend to have a hard time believing that (among many other things from Christianism).

That is a fact, and my question is: Why would Yahweh devise such a plan?
If he wanted the smart people to be converted, Yahweh could have told Yeshua (or told himself, if they were the same person) to say:
"My disciples, i say unto thee that Energy is mass times the speed of light multiplied unto itself. Mark these words, for they will save many souls."

It would have saved mine.

Does Yahweh change his plans?
No
If he doesn't, your statement makes no sense.

Because many people have no children. So either Yahweh has failed plans for the unborn children, or he planned people's celibacy/infertility/etc.

And if it's up to you to follow Yahweh's plans, and he planned that you had no children, your children will be out of his plans!!
Your sons, grandsons, grand grand grand grand grandsons...
He has plans for all those people, but God's plans does not equate to them actually happening.
Ok, first: that sounds like failure. So your god is not God.
Second: NO!!! NO WAY!!

A single person who was planned to die young, or to have no children by any means, and did have children, fucks up everything. EVERYTHING!!

NOT A SINGLE LIVING PERSON TODAY COULD BE A PART OF YAHWEH'S ORIGINAL PLAN!!

Don't you understand that if you go back some time in the past every person that had children is your ancestor?

Didn't you see "The Butterfly Effect"?
(Ok, that movie sucks, but perhaps you need it to see the point)

Don't you understand that if Yahweh didn't plan Abel's death without children none of us could be a part of his unchanging plan?

Ok, you proly don't believe in Abel, but it doesn't matter. It works for any person from the past.

You managed to believe in the most unreasonable combination: almighty god, all knowing, planing, failing, still not changing his plan...

What does it mean to be all knowing and making plans that can fail?

That wouldn't be a plan. It would be just a wish (well, if Yahweh wasn't supposed to be almighty).

You don't understand your own beliefs. If you did, you wouldn't believe them.
I make this claim, i claim that there's no way around it, and i can always back it up.

Let your priest, minister, pastor or whatever take my challenge, if he has access to internet.

Christian beliefs are a big blur. They tend not to know what to believe about specific (IMPORTANT) issues. They pick and choose, but they don't make sense.

They have tried to make sense for 1.6k years. Nobody ever could.
And you don't seem to be the one that will.
Perhaps God's message is made in a way that it is hard to understand in full,
And that would be the "God's mysterious ways" argument.

But can you back it up?

I know it's not even a claim, but still.

What makes you give that hypothesis any credit?

To me it's not hard at all. It's very easy: it's contradictory, and makes no sense.

but easy to understand at the basic level.
Care to demonstrate this basic level of understanding?

Because this is a positive claim (not only it's understandable, but it's EASY!). And i don't see it. Well, in no way that makes sense at least.

That way the meaning of the specific messages can change from culture to culture while retaining that which is necessary to be considered Christian.
And what would that be?

-I'm a Christian.
-Me too!
-But i don't believe that Jesus was the son of God.
-Oh, me neither. I don't even believe that he existed.
-How radical!

Would you say that the inspired writers screwed it when they said that Yahweh commanded ugly things like stoning people to death for violating the sabbath?
No,
A straightforward answer! Nice! Thanks!

So Yahweh did mean for people to be put to death by stoning when they violated the sabbath, right? Just to leave that clear.

but obviously people that take your view on it will be troubled by it.
Yeah. It's not only about the view. I'm a sensitive person.

So you're not troubled by people dying such deaths for such reason?

Were they mistaken or malicious?
No, you just need to read it in context.
The context was the sabbath. The order was to stone someone that prepares his meal to death.

What are you talking about?

Christians have the strangest use of the word "context".

Yeap. All the important things about it (the date, did Yahweh do it, was Jesus Yahweh himself, did Jesus have superpowers...) were decided by vote, 1684 years ago, in the First Council of Nicaea, arranged by Constantine, whose only purpose was to bring unity to the Roman Empire.

And now you buy it, no questions asked.
The last section is interesting,
It's interesting how you dodged the first.
"no questions asked." Did you ask any questions when people told you about evolution,
Of course. Thousands of them.

Most of my questions were addressed to the highest authority on the subject (leave me alone, gluteus, i already answered!): Nature.

Nature kindly answered many of them.

But the bitch never told me how the electric eel developed electric shocks...
I know I did, and it had nothing to do with religion.
Of course! No need to clarify! If it WAS religion is the question here.

Did you question your religion?
Did someone give you good answers?

Does that exclude murder, rape, pillaging, slavery, killing children, and all of those horrible things done in the Bible with his implicit or explicit consent?
There are laws and stories that aren't the most uplifting. But I think that you have to look at the bible as a whole in order to understand what each of these things are saying.
What's your basis?
That you don't read a chapter in a book and decide what it means without reading the whole thing.
Er... I distinctly remember that you did not read the whole thing.

So you don't decide what it means, but you do decide that it came God Himself?


You don't understand them, or do you?
Again, I don't know everything.
I didn't mention knowledge.
Should I disbelieve in evolution because you can't answer all my questions on the subject?
No. Not because of that.

But i have good reasons to believe in Evolution, and i can show them to you.

You can't say the same about your beliefs.

Besides it's not about you. Nobody can give me the answers, because they don't exist.

Can you have a broad view of a narrow religion?
Yes, Christianity is narrow, that is why there are hundreds of different sects with people from all walks of life.
That's not because it's broad. It's because it's confusing.

The different sects are quite different in many aspects, but they're consistently narrow.

If Yahweh planned the birth of every human being, then there's at least ONE thing that the parents could not choose. So where's that free will? Where's that choice?
Very nice, half of all your questions are redundant from what I can tell.
1) I repeat my questions a lot when talking to dodgers.
2) In this paragraph i made different questions.
3) You dodged again.

You'd like to think otherwise, because you're a christian (or at least you like to call yourself that, even if you don't believe in the Bible, probably don't believe in angels, demons and witches, and have little respect for what good John said).
Yes, and all that is necessary for one to be Christian?
I shouldn't have to respond to this. IT DEPENDS ON YOUR DEFINITION OF "CHRISTIAN"!!!
Interesting, I know there are some bishops out there that would disagree with you.
Of course! Every single bishop in the world will disagree with me! And that's not interesting at all!
Just as a little side note, I saw an interview with a bishop who said that you don't have to believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian. It is not essential to the faith.
I also saw it, probably. The Anglican Bishop of Oxford, Richard Harries, interviewed by Richard Dawkins in "The Root of All Evil".

My guess is that he doesn't believe in the virgin birth, but likes to call himself a christian.

Wanna bet?

Oh, too late, found the answer... I was correct...

Well, the source is answersingenesis.com, so it could all be a lie, but i see no reason why they would lie on this.

The article starts with a lie:
"The series’ title itself, The root of all evil? is jarring. The title is borrowed from 1 Timothy 6:10 and the teaching that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Dawkins instead is suggesting that religion itself (especially Christianity) can be the root of all kinds of evil."

Everyone knows that Dawkins didn't want this title. That he fought against this title, but it was imposed to him by Channel 4. He could manage to add a question mark at the end of the title tough.

I don't understand why timbrx still reads from there.

To me, if you don't believe in Evolution, you don't understand Evolution.
With christianism it's quite the opposite.
To me, if you understand Christianity you are either a Christian or you don't mind that others around you are.
The second option shouldn't be available if your beliefs are correct.

But nevermind that. The issue is backing up your own claims.

Please, proceed to back up your claim.

At the very least tell me what i don't understand, instead of just suggesting that i don't.

There are many reasons why people pray, one of them is to ask God to help you understand what he wants you to do.
You think i don't know that?
You've implied that only people pray to have God miraculously intervene with their lives
I don't think i ever have.

You're the one making the claim, so why don't you search and quote it yourself?

I don't feel like scrolling looking for something that doesn't exist.
to give them a nice house, lots of money, or kill their evil boss who wouldn't give you a break.
I must have a really bad memory...
If you know the answer than why ask me?
1) I very often ask questions whose answer i already know. Not to know THE answer, but the other guy's answer.
2) THAT, is not THE answer.
3) Do you even remember my question?
4) It's not "than" but "then".

Unless your real goal is to deny all the non-insane parts of Christianity and only validate those that are insane and probably not part of mainstream Christianity in order for me to give up my faith.
The mainstream Christianity is cherry picking. They don't like the whole package. So they should drop it.

The non-insane parts of Christianity are not Christianity.

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson, your religion is both good and original, but the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good.

That's smarter than asking for things, but still makes no sense if you believe that Yahweh has a plan for everyone (well, perhaps nothing makes sense if you believe that). Because you're still asking for a change. You're still asking. For yourself. In spite of Yahweh's plans.
Again, God's plans doesn't equate into them actually happening.
But you said that he didn't change them. And by praying that's what you're asking him to do.

Pay attention!

On a side note, you refuse to call him Yahweh.
Why is that?

If Yahweh has a plan for everyone, and some sell their souls to the Devil or whatever you want to call it... Did Yahweh plan that too?

Or does he fail?
I cannot speak for God on this matter,
Oh.

In what matter can you speak for God?
None, for I am not God and God hasn't told me to send this message to X, Y, or Z.
Then the "on this matter" part of your phrase didn't make sense.

Isn't christianism all about speaking for God?
No, it is about a personal relationship with God.
On whose terms? Yours or His?

Yours: Really? You don't sound like a freethinker. Freethinkers are not christians.

His: Then you're speaking for God. GOTCHA!

Someone else's: Is this the case?
Well, i know that this IS the case. This is one of those questions i make whose answer i know, just to know YOUR answer.

Christianism is about speaking for God. Adopting it means speaking for God. Some christians put more words in His mouth than others, but they all do to some extent. And that's being a christian.

You have already established that you want me to see how ridiculous my faith is, and want me to abandon it, but why?
Because it's a lie that hurts people.
How does it hurt me?
Hum... By blinding you. And giving you biases against people smart enough to realize that you're deluded. Preventing you from reasoning.
You should meet my OCD friend, you'd like him.
Probably. I like people.
He think all religions are corrupt institutions to gather the masses to delude them into giving the religious elite money.
I think it depends on your definition of "corrupt" and "religion". Anyway, i don't believe it can be as simple as that.

Blind, so I don't have the truth in that there is no God. But I could say the same for you.
Huh?
I don't doubt God. I doubt the Christian version.
Well, i don't have doubts regarding Yahweh either. I'm quite positive.

Haven't meet too many people that said I was deluded, although I have, but none of them ever said I was incapable of reason.
1) I didn't say that either. I think you're capable of reasoning. I think christianity can prevent you from reasoning regarding some issues, but it doesn't incapacitate you altogether.
2) The smartest Christians (who tend not the be among the smartest humans) manage to make a partition in their brains, devoid of reasoning, devoted to their faith.

And probably preventing you from having openly homosexual friends.
Interesting stance, you do know that there are multiple stances on homosexuality among the Christian religion, right?
Yes.
Mine just happens to be of the more liberal approach, and I do have several openly gay friends who I don't deny that are my friends.
Ok, i did say "probably", but nevertheless i was wrong (meaning that i would have lost that bet).

So congratulations. You're too open minded to be a Christian.

But what you you mean by "mine"? Does your minister agree with you, did you found your own sect, or what?

Hum... Now that i think about it, you did say, some time ago, that your church accepts gay people, right?

Perhaps you're spirit dead in a sense more real than that of christianism. Perhaps it prevents your spiritual growth.
It all sounds quite possible.
I don't quite follow, please explain.
I mean that, since christianity is essentially narrow (not that all christians are), it would tend to make you narrow. Prevent your spiritual growth (love, understanding, consciousness, awareness, all that).

It's possible that you measure people according to christianism, and that you pass judgments in spite of what Jeshua said.
According to Christianity? In what way, that if they are a Christian then they are better than the atheist? If so you got that one wrong.
Nono. I meant, for example, deeming swingers as sinners.

Well, you proly deem EVERYONE a sinner... but you know what i mean. I hope.

Or if you meant that on the standard that everyone should be loving and caring towards each other than no again on judgement,
What???

Wait... Was that "than" supposed to be a "then"?
Your phrase makes more sense (to me) that way, but i still don't quite get it. Sorry.
but that is how I measure people if that is the right word to use.
Oh, then you do measure people (christians, hinduists, atheists) according to christian values, right?
Yeah, that's what i meant. So if you do, i was right.

Well, always according to YOUR version of christianism. Your version proly makes you look good.
More fundamentalist christians would measure you according to THEIR version of christianity, that wouldn't make you look that good. Just like muslims measure people according to their religion, and so on. That is fundamentally wicked. That's why (most) religions must be denounced.

It's quite possible that you contribute to an environment of discrimination, self-righteousness  and hate (in spite of Jeshua speaking about love).

Discrimination lies at the core of Christianity.
Jeshua does not.
Interesting. What is the basis of this claim?
The evolution of religions in general, and the christian texts in particular (i've already quoted some passages). *See Edit.

Outside the context of the fundamentalist movement, how does faith alone hurt anyone?
By making you make wrong choices, of course.
What kinds of wrong choices?
Imagine that you won't have an eternal life after you die. Just for one second.
Would you make the same choices?
If I 100% knew that there was no afterlife? No,
Ok, so there you have at least ONE way that could make you make the wrong choices, if the christian notion of an afterlife is wrong.
but my character would not change.
Irrelevant.

Actually i don't really believe that your faith is strong enough for you to assume that everything will be ok after you die.
I believe that you're afraid.
I am not afraid of death.
I don't buy it.
I do not know what awaits after death,
Do you believe that there's Heaven and Hell? Any ideas on what they would be like?

but I do believe that it will be okay.
"Believing" is not "assuming".

I believe that you look both sides when crossing the street.
Of course, what is faith if it is never tested?
Yeah, like Yahweh refusing to answer to prayers. That's a good test!

Your faith is tested indeed each time you cross the street.

And guess what:


I believe that if your religious leaders told you to kill, you wouldn't.
Correct, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't kill them for some other reason.
"Them"?

I believe that you're lucky enough to be a reasonably good person, and a lousy christian.
Just a tiny bit paradoxical there.
You forgot to explain why.
And I do believe that a good Christian would be a good person,
I claim that's impossible.
but you can be good and not a Christian.
Ok, at least that.

My friend's mother in law doesn't do some things she'd like to do, because she'll do them after the apocalypse. She'll have more time then.
She leads a sad life of sacrifice now, but it'll be ok. Some salsa teacher will survive the apocalypse.
Some libraries will stand.
Perhaps her body fat will disappear. If not, she'll start exercising.
That is a little strange, even for Christians.
What? Faith? Yeah, it is.
Do you get it?

Saying that faith is ok is just what fundamentalists need.
All it takes to fly into the twin towers is the right amount of faith.
It's the most preeminent fundamentalist trait.
Umm, okay. I'm not a fundamentalist and I think you would agree.
Yeah. You don't have what it takes, fortunately.
Many mainstream religious people and organizations condemn the actions of fundamentalists when it comes to violence.
Aha.

So...

Your point?

You're a fencer because you don't have what it takes to be a fundamentalist (luckily), or a rational person (sadly).
Interesting, never been called an irrational person before. I've made and done irrational things in my life, but no one has ever said that I was irrational as a whole.
And still no one ever has.

Perhaps you too have a faith partition in your brain, devoid of reason. So you wouldn't be rational, but wouldn't be irrational as a whole either.

P.S. So what about 2 John 1:10?
It was meant as a private letter and as such must be read accordingly.
Hum... Was he fooling around? Was he exaggerating? What? Why do i have to ask? Why can't you just say it?

My personal letters are more direct than whatever else i write. Somehow i don't think that's what you mean.

You are an Antichrist in that you accept his message and try to de-convert people away from the faith.
What's "his message"? Why do i have to ask? Why can't you just say it?
But this does not mean that if I see you on the street I should never have you over for supper.
I appreciate that. Tomorrow i go to supper to my christian friend's house. I told him to be prepared to defend his faith. ^_^

Despite what you would like Christians to believe, the bible is not always literal in what it says,
I know. But sometimes it is. Literal and wrong. Like when it advises you to kill people from other religions. Or at least not to talk to them.
and the message changes according to circumstance.
"It's ok to conquer that little town, kill men, women and children, except for the little girls. It's ok for you to take one or two for each one to systematically rape them" has changed to... Hum... "It's not ok"? What? When? Where?

Can you start to picture little girls raped by the men who killed their families?

It makes me sick to my stomach. And if that makes me the antichrist, so be it.

Oh... Not literal... Well then, perhaps they just killed their spirits, and raped their spirits too...

*Edit: But i want to leave this clear. It's not just about christianity. The evolution of religions happens in an environment of competition. The ones that are best at promoting stupidity and bigotry survive (even at some marginal cost to their hosts).

Stupidity and bigotry. Bigotry and stupidity.

Most religions provide a little something in return. This something is usually a lie (like a blissful afterlife) that can reduce your stress, help you cope with your losses, or provide unity to the group.

But this is not necessary. All a religion has to do to stay alive is being good at staying alive.

You have too look at the way the parasite has to reproduce. If it's the same as it host's, the parasite will eventually start behaving like a symbiont (both the parasite and the host have the same goal). This is what happened with our organelles.

Religions don't just get passed from parents to their children. So if a religion can get away with it, it will betray its host.

It will make it host have a life of celibacy, if that gets it to dedicate to the propagation of the parasite.

It will make its host a martyr, if that gets it to propagate to more hosts.

Just like a cold makes you sneeze to propagate itself.

I have a theory on zombies: they don't just want to eat. They bite to propagate themselves.


(Edited by wisp 5/23/2009 at 4:25 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 07:40 AM on May 22, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from wisp at 10:25 AM on May 20, 2009 :
Hey, welcome back! ^_^

Thanks for answering. Will reply after picking my kid from the kinder.

See ya!




Thanks, I'll try to get back to you soon.



-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 05:21 AM on May 23, 2009 | IP
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Whether you decide to act on that connection or not is up to you.
Me?
I'm more drawn towards Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism. They are far more reasonable, and lack bigotry.


In that case good luck in finding the right religion for you.

So, since you have not hallucinated, by your own statistical rule you wouldn't regard their hallucinations as supernatural?
Otherwise i don't think i follow.


That's not what I'm saying, only that people who have religious experiences, which you would call hallucinations, usually believe they are religious/supernatural in origin as soon as they have them. And I would say this is true of all religions.

There is no set criteria, the Bible's teaching is complex when you go into finer details.
Why?

Your answer will probably be "I don't know". Well, i do know.
Because it makes no sense! Because many people wrote it, and they didn't necessarily agree!


I would agree that many people wrote it and had different views of God ect. Which means they probably did not agree on everything.

Because God did not have anything to do with the biblical text anymore than with Alice in Wonderland!


I disagree, the bible was inspired by God, I doubt alice in wonderland was.

Because it's full of mistakes!Because they took myths from other cultures and tried to weave them together! Because it's pretty random, and it completely lacks a plan! Because it doesn't reflect divinity at all! Easy answer!


They did take myths from other cultures, but it is not the story that matters, it is the meaning. It is not random, and it does not lack a plan, it doesn't reflect divinity in the way you mean it because it was written by humans inspired by God, not God himself.

There are lots and lots of different (and contradictory) answers that try to make sense. Some succeed partially, but always contradicting something else in the Bible.


The Bible is not Gods' inerrant word, it is mostly a work done by humans, which are not perfect. But again, it is not always the actual story, but the meaning of the story that is important.

So perhaps the anti-Christ is the same way, if you are a follower of him,
I don't know "him". I guess you don't mean literally.
Can you speak literally for a moment, and tell me what you're talking about, so it's clear?
you are connected to him and can be called an anti-Christ.
Great... Can you explain that connection? Or is it supernatural???


Anyone who believes in Christ is said to be part of Christs' family, and connected to Christ and every one else who is also a believer and accepts Christ.

Now, the anti-Christ is that which denies Christ after hearing the word. (The anti-Christ is probably supposed to be treated as a  metaphorical character, and it is more of an idea then in actual person/being, but who knows) And through your disbelief you are connected to that idea and are labeled an anti-Christ.  

Creationism makes more sense.


Even leaving out modern science creationism doesn't make sense, same with biblical inerrancy. There are too many things wrong with it that very few Christians think of creationism as the right answer, not to mention that it was never meant to be taken literal anyway.

I say take it or leave it! Don't dilute it!


Funny, creationists are the ones who are changing the historical accuracy of the the bible, not mainstream Christians who take a more metaphorical approach.

Christians don't understand Christianism.


It is Christianity, not Christianism.

Most of them are too arrogant to give the sincere answer "I don't know", so you (timbrx too) are better than the average. But you still don't understand.


There are lots of things about Christianity I don't understand, but I think I understand the basics.

The best the average christian does is dodge the question. But i don't let them dodge. So the final dodge is "Ask a priest", which translates to "Ask a better dodger". And they sure are!! My goodness!

-How do i know that Yahweh is for real?
-Because he doesn't deceive.


That is a horrible response. Who responds with 'God doesn't deceive' to a non-believer? Honestly, I don't think priests, as a general rule, are good at talking to people who don't believe in God because so much of their work only involves other believers, they aren't used to answering questions from non-believers.

-What about Abraham? Didn't He make him believe that he had to kill his son?...


I would take the metaphorical approach, but I would say that it is not the story that holds Gods' message but the meaning. That to follow God 100%, He must be above all else in your life, even your own family. Of course, you could go off into what it means to put God before everything else, but I'll leave it at that.

Thinking in English consumes a lot of my mental RAM.


Is English your second language?

Oh, i forgot, it also depends on your definition of "scientist".
I did say "natural scientist" Ya know, biology, chemistry, physics, geology, astronomy, ect.
Yeah, you did say it (i had forgotten it before you said it, but it's still irrelevant). I don't know why you mention it. It doesn't make the concept of "scientist" any clearer.

Do undergraduate students qualify? When? Never? Always?

That's what i meant. But i wouldn't like discussing it. Just pointing out that it depends.
Perhaps the concept of "scientist" is very precise and objective. If so, i don't know it, and i apologize.


Usually a scientist is anyone who uses the scientific method, although there is usually a distinction between social science like psychology and sociology, and natural science like physics and geology.

I would think that in order to get asked to take one of those surveys you had to be a practicing scientist, which would mean that undergraduates probably would not be in their.

My best guess is that most of the polls included people with at least a masters and holding a professional job actively using the scientific method in one way or another.  

I apologize but I'll have to end it here for now, I'll get back to you on the second half later, hopefully tomorrow.


-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 01:38 AM on May 26, 2009 | IP
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I'm afraid that if i answer to your "half" an answer you'll answer to my new answer before answering to the older answer.

But well...

There is no set criteria, the Bible's teaching is complex when you go into finer details.
Why?

Your answer will probably be "I don't know". Well, i do know.
Because it makes no sense! Because many people wrote it, and they didn't necessarily agree!
I would agree that many people wrote it and had different views of God ect.
Ok, that's reasonable.
What's NOT reasonable is being a christian when you believe that. Because if God's inspiration isn't even good enough to provide a clear message to the inspired ones, what good is it?

And if it's no good, why pay any attention to the confusing message of the inspired ones?

Which means they probably did not agree on everything.
Yeah, that's my point.

And if they don't agree on everything, that actually takes a lot of value away from the things they DID agree on. Because it would be more like random guessing God's will than receiving it by inspiration.

If two astrologists disagree on most of what they predict, but they agree that some guy will be president, it doesn't sound very smart to say "Well, they agree on that, so it must be true".

Because God did not have anything to do with the biblical text anymore than with Alice in Wonderland!
I disagree,
Of course.
the bible was inspired by God, I doubt alice in wonderland was.
I spot a claim.

Proceed to support it, or to take it back.

They did take myths from other cultures, but it is not the story that matters, it is the meaning.
The meaning? Were they inspired by Yahweh to copy those stories? What do you mean?
It is not random, and it does not lack a plan,
Then neither did the original cultures from where they took those myths. So how special is the Bible?
it doesn't reflect divinity in the way you mean it because it was written by humans inspired by God, not God himself.
aaand that would be a claim.

Care to support it?

The Bible is not Gods' inerrant word, it is mostly a work done by humans, which are not perfect. But again, it is not always the actual story, but the meaning of the story that is important.
Oh... So the meaning would be "Don't stand in Yahweh's way or you and your sons will be killed, and your little girls systematically raped".
Or is there some profound meaning beyond that?

you are connected to him and can be called an anti-Christ.
Great... Can you explain that connection? Or is it supernatural???
Anyone who believes in Christ is said to be part of Christs' family,
So Satan doesn't believe in Christ, or is he a part of the family?
and connected to Christ and every one else who is also a believer and accepts Christ.
Great... Another unexplained connection...

Care to explain this one?

Now, the anti-Christ is that which denies Christ after hearing the word. (The anti-Christ is probably supposed to be treated as a  metaphorical character, and it is more of an idea then in actual person/being, but who knows) And through your disbelief you are connected to that idea and are labeled an anti-Christ.
Then why say "him"?

So by saying that i was connected to "him", and that i was "his" follower, and all that you just meant that i didn't believe in Christ???

And John's warning could be roughly translated to "Beware of those who don't believe in Christ. Those don't believe in Christ."

I say take it or leave it! Don't dilute it!
Funny,
How so?
creationists are the ones who are changing the historical accuracy of the the bible,
Changing the accuracy? What do you mean?
not mainstream Christians who take a more metaphorical approach.
I know. That's what i'm saying. The more "metaphorical" the approach is, the less the need to approach it at all.

Christians don't understand Christianism.
It is Christianity, not Christianism.
Damn! Thanks a lot, pal!!

In Spanish it's "cristianismo" (and "hinduismo", and "islamismo", etc).

I thought i had heard "cristianism".

I looked it up, and "christianism" is defined as "the belief that Christianity is superior to all other religions".

Christianity does imply that, but i won't pretend that's what i meant.

How come no one corrected me before?? Did they think i meant that? ^o)

Most of them are too arrogant to give the sincere answer "I don't know", so you (timbrx too) are better than the average. But you still don't understand.
There are lots of things about Christianity I don't understand,
I appreciate the honesty.
but I think I understand the basics.
1) What would "the basics" be?
2) What would your basis be?

The best the average christian does is dodge the question. But i don't let them dodge. So the final dodge is "Ask a priest", which translates to "Ask a better dodger". And they sure are!! My goodness!

-How do i know that Yahweh is for real?
-Because he doesn't deceive.
That is a horrible response.
Could i agree more?
Who responds with 'God doesn't deceive' to a non-believer?
Good question.
Many do. And i think you do some similar things too, but nowhere near that.

Honestly, I don't think priests, as a general rule, are good at talking to people who don't believe in God because so much of their work only involves other believers,
Hum... Perhaps you're right. But you did advice me to go to a priest.

they aren't used to answering questions from non-believers.
Who is?

-What about Abraham? Didn't He make him believe that he had to kill his son?...
I would take the metaphorical approach,
Hum... Yeah, it only works if the other person believes that that was literal.

Was Abraham literal to you?

but I would say that it is not the story that holds Gods' message but the meaning. That to follow God 100%, He must be above all else in your life, even your own family. Of course, you could go off into what it means to put God before everything else, but I'll leave it at that.
I have no problem with that, actually.

I think that once you define the highest value in your life everything else is below that (d'oh).

Is English your second language?
That question flatters me.

I guess it is.

Is it still considered "second" when i know other languages too?

English is the foreign language that i know best, so perhaps it qualifies as "second" even if i do know other languages.

Usually a scientist is anyone who uses the scientific method, although there is usually a distinction between social science like psychology and sociology, and natural science like physics and geology.
Yeah. I was more interested in the definition they used in the poll.

I would think that in order to get asked to take one of those surveys you had to be a practicing scientist, which would mean that undergraduates probably would not be in their.
Oh. Perhaps you're right.

My best guess is that most of the polls included people with at least a masters and holding a professional job actively using the scientific method in one way or another.
Hum... I seriously doubt it.

My best guess is that they wanted "nice" results, and they might have considered the guy who cleaned the lab's bathroom a scientist.

I apologize but I'll have to end it here for now,
Ok, i hope you find some time.
I'll get back to you on the second half later,
"Half"? As in ½?

More like 1/7.
hopefully tomorrow.
Hopefully soon.

Cheers!


(Edited by wisp 6/2/2009 at 6:22 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 6:21 PM on June 2, 2009 | IP
    
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