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   Creationism vs Evolution Debates
     Giraffes and Evolution
       Debunking Creationism yet again, as if there was need.

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wisp

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The recurrent laryngeal nerve, which travels from the brain to the larynx (voicebox) in mammals, is often used as an example of imperfect design.



It takes a weird roundabout path. It runs from the vagus nerve, down the neck, into the chest, under the aorta, around a ligament in the lung, then back up to the larynx in the throat.

Well, that in mammals.
In a fish, the path of the recurrent laryngeal nerve is a straight line.

Our explanation of that tortuous "design" (pattern) is, of course, that every step of the way, moving the organs around (such as the heart moving down into the chest) when we became mammals was the best (cheapest) thing to do.

That was the way Evolution chose. But it's not a silly choice. It did what it could.

This is clearly an inefficient design, especially in a mammal like a giraffe, where this nerve goes a very long way to the chest, and then up again to the larynx.

Just a little bit of intelligence would have sufficed to give the giraffe a direct way for this nerve.

But we know how Evolution works.

The marginal cost of elongating the recurrent laryngeal nerve just one inch was less than the major upheaval that it would cost to make it direct.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 9:47 PM on April 19, 2009 | IP
wisp

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...

(Edited by wisp 4/21/2009 at 10:39 AM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 06:28 AM on April 20, 2009 | IP
Erica15

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Evolution happens over a long period of time. So chew on this for a bit. Because the neck of the Giraffe extends so high into the air, the heart must contain an extraordinarily strong pump to force the blood from the lower body to the highest reaches of the brain. Thus, the first capability unique to the giraffe is a heart that is also a most powerful pump.

However, when the giraffe lowers its neck to drink, the blood that is circulating in its neck will suddenly come rushing down by the force of gravity. This sudden rush of blood is so strong, it would quickly cause the giraffe to suffer a brain aneurysm, killing the animal instantly. Therefore, the second capability is that spigots are built into his neck arteries that instantly close down whenever the animal lowers its neck to drink water. If evolution is true, the giraffe would have to grow this adaption over a long period of time, but the giraffe could not survive without it.

Secondly, when the giraffe abruptly raises its head after drinking, the blood would flow so rapidly downward through the force of gravity that the animal would suffer a sudden loss of blood to the brain, thus causing him to pass out cold. However, the giraffe has a third capability that prevents this from occurring. The brain has a sponge-like material just behind the brain that has gradually been absorbing blood all the time the giraffe has been drinking. When the giraffe suddenly raises his head, that blood very slowly drains out of the brain, thus keeping the giraffe from passing out, while the spigots open up and the blood begins to flow naturally.

Three very complicated, but cooperating capabilities had to come together at once in the giraffe.
The giraffe could not survive without any one of these capabilities. If evolution is true, the giraffe got these over time, but whiel they are forming, whenever the giraffe bends down to get a drink, it dies, and dead animals cannot evolve.


 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 6:51 PM on May 12, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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Not all at once, little by little.


(Edited by Apoapsis 5/12/2009 at 11:39 PM).


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 6:58 PM on May 12, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Perhaps by "at once" she means that all of them evolved together. Which is true, and not very difficult.
That's not particular of giraffes. We can see that in all animals. So i don't get the point.

Not even creationists say "The left part of the human body cannot live without the right part, and viceversa. Did they evolve together by random chance????".


(Edited by wisp 5/13/2009 at 1:58 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 8:02 PM on May 12, 2009 | IP
Zucadragon

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Quote from Erica15 at 7:51 PM on May 12, 2009 :
Evolution happens over a long period of time. So chew on this for a bit. Because the neck of the Giraffe extends so high into the air, the heart must contain an extraordinarily strong pump to force the blood from the lower body to the highest reaches of the brain. Thus, the first capability unique to the giraffe is a heart that is also a most powerful pump.

However, when the giraffe lowers its neck to drink, the blood that is circulating in its neck will suddenly come rushing down by the force of gravity. This sudden rush of blood is so strong, it would quickly cause the giraffe to suffer a brain aneurysm, killing the animal instantly. Therefore, the second capability is that spigots are built into his neck arteries that instantly close down whenever the animal lowers its neck to drink water. If evolution is true, the giraffe would have to grow this adaption over a long period of time, but the giraffe could not survive without it.

Secondly, when the giraffe abruptly raises its head after drinking, the blood would flow so rapidly downward through the force of gravity that the animal would suffer a sudden loss of blood to the brain, thus causing him to pass out cold. However, the giraffe has a third capability that prevents this from occurring. The brain has a sponge-like material just behind the brain that has gradually been absorbing blood all the time the giraffe has been drinking. When the giraffe suddenly raises his head, that blood very slowly drains out of the brain, thus keeping the giraffe from passing out, while the spigots open up and the blood begins to flow naturally.

Three very complicated, but cooperating capabilities had to come together at once in the giraffe.
The giraffe could not survive without any one of these capabilities. If evolution is true, the giraffe got these over time, but whiel they are forming, whenever the giraffe bends down to get a drink, it dies, and dead animals cannot evolve.




I learned a lot about giraffes from this post, but have you thought about the idea that these functions formed as the species's neck got longer and longer?

Imagine a creature that has a neck only a little longer then that of a horse for instance, it wouldn't have a big problem yet, the distance wouldn't be that far, but it would already get an advantage from being able to eat from higher trees or bushes.

Add to that a little growth in legs, still no problem.

-more leg and neck growth, and now we can see that it might cause a bit of a problem, it isn't quite deadly at all, but the fact that its neck and legs are so long, quick movements can cause problems for the species. Though the benefit of eating from the lower trees is still greater then the cost of having to move slowly to avoid getting too much or too little blood in the brain.

-The species develops one of the mechanisms, the sponge, and al though by itself, it doesn't fully solve the problem, it does help, allowing the giraffe to function a bit more.

-imagine both other functions in the same way, as the species evolves, it can possible develop rudimentary versions of these functions, which give it an advantage over the previous versions in an environment where food is easily gotten by long neck.

-At this point the neck grows longer, the legs grow longer as well, and the new functions present develop further.

Tadaa!

This is of course very simplified, but are you saying this is impossible?

 


Posts: 103 | Posted: 03:49 AM on May 13, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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Erica15 is just another willfully ignorant creationist who doesn't understand how evolution works.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 12:52 AM on May 15, 2009 | IP
wisp

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aaand doesn't reply to the refutations.


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 10:56 PM on May 18, 2009 | IP
Lester10

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This is of course very simplified, but are you saying this is impossible?


Another plausible story. Possible maybe but did it actually happen?



-------
Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 09:27 AM on May 23, 2009 | IP
wisp

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The evidence suggest it did. Perhaps not EXACTLY in that way, but pretty close.

You get to your home, everything is a mess and the valuables are missing.

Would it be biased to leave out the supernatural explanation?

Even if you had no camera you can pretty well say what happened. Not an exact account, but pretty darn close!



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:53 PM on May 23, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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Another plausible story. Possible maybe but did it actually happen?

That's what the evidence indicates.  It's the best conclusion we can draw from the evidence we have so far.  As more evidence is discovered, the scenario might change slightly but the overall path is pretty much established.
The question is, according to what we know so far, how plausible is any other competing claim?
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 9:20 PM on May 23, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from Lester10 at 09:27 AM on May 23, 2009 :
This is of course very simplified, but are you saying this is impossible?


Another plausible story. Possible maybe but did it actually happen?


There is more direct physical evidence that indicates it did than says it didn't, wouldn't you agree?




-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 4:11 PM on June 27, 2009 | IP
wisp

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He'll just keep saying that we have the same evidence.




-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:16 AM on April 1, 2010 | IP
    
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