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orion

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Analysis of the collagen protein preserved in an 80 million year old hadrosaur (duck-bill dinosaur) is most closely related to that found in the modern chicken.

From a paper published in the May 1 issue of the journal Science.

Led by scientists at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (BIDMC) and North Carolina State University (NCSU), the research support earlier results from analyses suggesting that collagen protein survived in the bones of a well preserved Tyrannosaurus rex, and offer robust new evidence supporting previous conclusions that birds and dinosaurs are evolutionarily related.



Here is the science news article:
Dinosaur-Bird link


Analysis and validation of protein samples were conducted independently by several labs.

In conclusion:
In the final portion of the study, coauthor Chris Organ, PhD, a Postdoctoral Fellow in the Department of Organismic and Evolutionary Biology at Harvard University, conducted a rigorous phylogenetic analysis of the identified sequences to determine B. canadensis' place within the evolutionary tree of animals. The B. canadensis collagen sequence data were compared to a database of collagen sequence data from 21 species of living animals and sequences from two other fossils, mastodon and T. rex. The results placed B. canadensis on the same family-tree branch with T. rex, in the same group as chicken and ostrich, and more distantly, to alligator and lizard.

"The phylogenetic analysis yielded clear results, but the placement of the extinct dinosaurs still rests on a limited amount of sequence data," notes Organ. "There is not enough sequence data to correctly parse out the relationships within Dinosauria [the group containing B. canadensis, T. rex and the two birds] but the group as a whole is well supported by the analysis, which is consistent with studies based on morphology."


The dino-chicken connection is looking stronger.  Another piece of evidence to add to the growing mountain of evidence supporting evolution.  
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 6:05 PM on May 1, 2009 | IP
Demon38

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The dino-chicken connection is looking stronger.  Another piece of evidence to add to the growing mountain of evidence supporting evolution.

Are there any experts left who doubt this connection?  The last year or so has provided evidence that is pretty conclusive.  
Nice article, by the way.  Thanks orion.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 09:16 AM on May 4, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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New fossil pretty much seals the deal for the dino-bird link.



Four Winged dino may be missing link in bird debate


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 2:37 PM on September 26, 2009 | IP
AFJ

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ScienceDaily: “Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-Bird Links”

[Birds' unique leg physiology necessary for lung function]
Bird Dino Doubts

SECURITY ALERT: null

Oregon State University scientists Devon Quick and John Ruben would disagree with you guys. Dinosaurs and most other animals have/had moving femur bones and birds femurs are fixed.

"While most walking animals (including humans) move the upper leg bone as they walk or run, birds essentially keep it still, using their lower legs only."

According to them, their fixed femur anatomy is necessary for lung function.  Would that imply there's a WORKING PURPOSE for the fixed femur in a bird?

“The position of the thigh bone and muscles in birds is critical to their lung function, which in turn is what gives them enough lung capacity for flight.”

They examined a theropod dinosaur...
But the evidence shows that skeletal differences—including a mobile femur—meant dinosaurs couldn’t have given rise to birds.

Their abdominal air sac, if they had one, would have collapsed. That undercuts a critical piece of supporting evidence for the dinosaur-bird link,” Ruben said.

Nonetheless, this is ignored because evolutionary theory doesn't bother with such details.  I mean because it happened, therefore it's got to be true---right?

Ruben commented...“Frankly, there’s a lot of museum politics involved in this, a lot of careers committed to a particular point of view even if new scientific evidence raises questions.”

Yes a particular point of view like blood, blood vessels, heme, and collagen can all be preserved for 80 million years.  Bending evidence to fit a model.  Maybe it's the model that needs to be adjusted.

 



(Edited by AFJ 9/26/2009 at 8:55 PM).
 


Posts: 86 | Posted: 8:49 PM on September 26, 2009 | IP
orion

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Af3


Their abdominal air sac, if they had one, would have collapsed. That undercuts a critical piece of supporting evidence for the dinosaur-bird link,” Ruben said.


Nonetheless, this is ignored because evolutionary theory doesn't bother with such details.  I mean because it happened, therefore it's got to be true---right?


AF3 - you're the one who doesn't understand ToE.  For one thing, the OSU researchers don't deny evolution, they're just questioning a particular detail of evolution.  Scientists debate the particular details all the time.  This doesn't mean the theory of evolution is wrong - like you seem to suggest.  

Ruben is suggesting that dinos and birds followed a parallel evolutionary path.  

"This discovery probably means that birds evolved on a parallel path alongside dinosaurs, starting that process before most dinosaur species even existed."

It could very well be that dinos and birds share a common ancestor - and thus share some similar traits, such as feathers.  Just like  chimps and humans share a common ancestor that lived about 6-7 million years ago.

AF3


Ruben commented...“Frankly, there’s a lot of museum politics involved in this, a lot of careers committed to a particular point of view even if new scientific evidence raises questions.”


Yes a particular point of view like blood, blood vessels, heme, and collagen can all be preserved for 80 million years.  Bending evidence to fit a model.  Maybe it's the model that needs to be adjusted.


Hey, scientists are human.  However, ToE remains solidly supported by the evidence - dispite debate over the details of evolutionary pathways of particular species.

I'll side with the radiometric dating results - there's no reason to doubt them (unless you're a creationist).  :0)

(Edited by orion 9/26/2009 at 10:31 PM).
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 10:28 PM on September 26, 2009 | IP
orion

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Both are interesting articles.  It just goes to show that there's some healthy debate going on here about dino-bird evolution.  The important point, though, is that none of these researchers is questioning that evolution occurrs.  That is NOT in doubt.
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 10:53 PM on September 26, 2009 | IP
AFJ

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I never said or thought they did deny evolution.  My observation is that there is working purpose for the bird femur bone.  Purpose is a sign of intention and planning.  Look at the working purpose of the arches in the Roman aqueduct versus working purpose of a natural arch.

You guys think that an unguided sequence of genes happened and selection pulled it off to bring forth this design feature in birds.  Then where are all of the dead rejects that didn't make it?  Where's the proof of the millions of dino bird mess ups that couldn't survive?  How could they even live to reproduce?  We should see all kinds of bad mutations before we get a beneficial one.

Because it wouldn't be unguided if mutations always came up beneficial with no "mistakes." Then that would annul selection altogether--and even I believe there is selection.  

As far as so-called homologies between dinos and birds.  Your common ancestor is my common design from a common designer.







(Edited by AFJ 9/26/2009 at 11:23 PM).
 


Posts: 86 | Posted: 11:11 PM on September 26, 2009 | IP
orion

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Purpose?  Intent?  Design?  ToE doesn't work that way.  

Getting back to the dino-chicken debate, here's an interesting article that shows that the dino-bird debate has raged since Darwin's time.

Dino-Bird Debate - Going on a long time


 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 12:26 AM on September 27, 2009 | IP
Lester10

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Made in China you say .... I mean discovered in China - that about gives the game away, don't you think.

China has come out with these things before and they were not quite what they thought they were - so I'd wait before I celebrated.
In fact I'd view them with an extremely skeptical eye...


-------
Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 05:13 AM on September 27, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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Looks like a transitional with half a wing -- on the hind legs.


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 08:28 AM on September 27, 2009 | IP
AFJ

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Quote from orion at 12:26 AM on September 27, 2009 :
Purpose?  Intent?  Design?  ToE doesn't work that way.  

Getting back to the dino-chicken debate, here's an interesting article that shows that the dino-bird debate has raged since Darwin's time.

Dino-Bird Debate - Going on a long time




Before I say anything, where are all the bad mutations that weren't selected for?  Where are the birds that had mobile femurs and died. Maybe you don't understand the necessary implications of natural selection throughout millions of years.

And it doesn't matter if  ToE doesn't work that way.  Especially if the function of the bird femur defines an interactive purpose in a given  system.  This matches the pattern of reason for design features in anything at all.

The bottom arch structure of the aqueduct functions by carrying weight for the next set up--which is measurably proportional to the lower set.  It's function defines it's interactive purpose in the whole of a designed system.  It is part of a working system that has intended purpose.

The bird has two femurs that are measurably proportional.  Their function defines their purpose, which was interpreted by intelligence.  The scientists said that the stationary femur was necessary for the pulmonary function of the bird.  Sounds like an great engineering job to me!!
 


Posts: 86 | Posted: 08:44 AM on September 27, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from AFJ at 08:44 AM on September 27, 2009 :

And it doesn't matter if  ToE doesn't work that way.  


Meaning you don't care if your argument is accurate or not?



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 11:05 AM on September 27, 2009 | IP
Apoapsis

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Looks like they are starting to be able to tell what color the feathers were on some dinosaurs:

Fossilized melanosomes and the colour of Cretaceous dinosaurs and birds

Here we demonstrate, using scanning electron microscopy (SEM), that both the integumentary filaments of Sinosauropteryx and Sinornithosaurus and the pennaceous feathers of the Jehol birds contain sub-micrometre-sized bodies that are either highly elongate with rounded termini, or oblate to sub-spherical, in shape. We eliminate the possibility that these bodies represent fossilized bacteria or diagenetic minerals, and interpret them as fossilized melanosomes. Their morphology is identical to that of melanosomes in the feathers of extant birds. Melanosomes are lysosome-related organelles of pigment cells in which melanins are stored, and are responsible, in part, for the colours exhibited by the feathers of modern birds. The two most common types of melanin are the reddish-brown to yellow pigment phaeomelanin and the black-grey pigment eumelanin21. These melanosomes, the first examples reported from the Jehol Group, and the first fossil examples of phaeomelanosomes, are preserved in life position. Representative examples are shown from an isolated feather (Fig. 1), feathers from the bird Confuciusornis (Fig. 2), and integumentary filaments of the theropod dinosaurs Sinosauropteryx (Fig. 3) and Sinornithosaurus (Fig. 4).


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 3:48 PM on January 31, 2010 | IP
Apoapsis

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Popular article from BBC:

Dinosaur had ginger feathers



A team of scientists from China and the UK has now revealed that the bristles of this 125-million-year-old dinosaur were in fact ginger-coloured feathers.

The researchers say that the diminutive carnivore had a "Mohican" of feathers running along its head and back. It also had a striped tail.

The team revealed details of the dinosaur's coloured feathers in an article published on Nature's website.



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 9:41 PM on January 31, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Cool!

Thanks, Apoapsis!



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 4:39 PM on February 3, 2010 | IP
Apoapsis

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It's cute, isn't it?


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 4:43 PM on February 3, 2010 | IP
wisp

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It is!

And its age is harmonious with the present knowledge of the evolutionary history.

This creature in an much older strata would be quite strange.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 3:30 PM on February 5, 2010 | IP
orion

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Take a look at this guy... Anchiornis huxleyi.



New colors for dinosaurs
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 3:51 PM on February 5, 2010 | IP
wisp

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I'm sooo saving that pic...


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 3:56 PM on February 5, 2010 | IP
orion

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Yes, we need to show Lester when he denies that birds are not descended from dinos.

Wow!  What a difference from when I was a kid and people thought dinosaurs were slow, dull, cold-blooded creatures!  This is so cool!

Good to see you back, Wisp.
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 4:13 PM on February 5, 2010 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from orion at 3:51 PM on February 5, 2010 :
Take a look at this guy... Anchiornis huxleyi.



New colors for dinosaurs



The area has been a gold mine for paleontologists and, among other things, provided abundant evidence confirming a once-controversial theory that modern birds are descendants of theropod dinosaurs.


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 5:47 PM on February 5, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Thanks, orion. ^_^

While our knowledge on evolution keeps growing and growing, creationists are stuck in time.

And they're not moving anywhere.

Kinda sad.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 6:13 PM on February 5, 2010 | IP
    
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