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   Creationism vs Evolution Debates
     Is Evolution a Religion?
       Is Evolution Really a Religion or is it fact?

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thelmoose

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Ah, excellent logic. Then, anything else that is not historically possible is also very likely. Am I following you correctly?
 


Posts: 40 | Posted: 7:01 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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my point exactly.  what people are now saying about the flood, people used to say about ninevah.  but look what happened in that situation!


I'm sorry to stop that argument flat in its tracks, but let's recall for a moment that the Great Flood isn't Ninevah.  


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 9:47 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Fact:  All the mountains of the world have been under water at some time or other in the past, as indicated by sedimentary rocks and marine fossils near their summits. Even most volcanic mountains with their pillow lavas seem largely to have been formed when under water.
Fact:  Most of the earth's crust consists of sedimentary rocks. These were originally formed in almost all cases under water, usually by deposition after transportation by water.
Fact:  Sedimentary beds are assigned ages based on the fossils found therein.  Fossils require very rapid burial and compaction to be preserved at all. Ergo sedimentary formations are formed rapidly and more and more present-day geologists are returning to this point of view.
Fact:  Since there is known to be a global continuity of sedimentary formations in the geologic column and since each unit was formed rapidly, the entire geologic column seems to be the product of continuous rapid deposition of sediments, comprising in effect the geological record of a time when "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."
Fact:  The types of rocks, the vast extent of specific sedimentary rock formations, the minerals and metals, coal and oil found in rocks, the various types of structures (i.e., faults, folds, thrusts, etc.), sedimentary rocks grossly deformed while still soft from recent deposition, and numerous other features seem to occur indiscriminately throughout the various "ages" supposedly represented in the column. To all outward appearances, therefore, they were all formed in essentially the same brief time period.
Fact:  The fossil sequences in the sedimentary rocks are not exception to this rule, for there is a circular reasoning process involved in using them to identify their supposed age. That is, the fossils have been dated by the rocks where they are found, which in turn had been dated by their imbedded fossils with the sequences based on their relative assumed stages of evolution, which had ultimately been based on the ancient philosophy of the "great chain of being." Instead of representing the evolution of life over many ages, the fossils really speak of the destruction of life in one age, with their actual local "sequences" having been determined by the ecological communities in which they were living at the time of burial.
Fact:  There are traditions of the great Flood found in hundreds of tribes in all parts of the world (all similar in one way or another to that in the Genesis record).  Thus those tribes, it can logically be assumed, all originated from the same group of people.  We like to call them Noah's family.



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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 9:59 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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(Note: I rebutted these in a random order—whichever ones I felt like doing first.)

Fact:  There are traditions of the great Flood found in hundreds of tribes in all parts of the world (all similar in one way or another to that in the Genesis record).  Thus those tribes, it can logically be assumed, all originated from the same group of people.  We like to call them Noah's family.


The only thing similar—at all—between the Biblical Great Flood and “other” Great Floods is in their titles: there was a big flood. The resemblance stops right there. Native American tales of a flood that washed over the entire world mention no gigantic boat that a selected amount of humans and animals lived on. As a matter of fact, most Native American theology centers around the idea that human beings were made after the flood. The one I know more than the others stars what I recall to be two heroes who save the day: a turtle and a raven. That’s hardly the “cleansing” message meant to be conveyed with the Biblical Great Flood, in which God rinses the earth of evil contamination, though I suppose you might have had a small point in showing that the remnants of a Great Flood story can be found in every corner of the earth… if only that were true. What about the Greeks? The Romans? I remember no account of a world-wide flood in any Greek or Roman myth.

Fact:  All the mountains of the world have been under water at some time or other in the past, as indicated by sedimentary rocks and marine fossils near their summits. Even most volcanic mountains with their pillow lavas seem largely to have been formed when under water.
Fact:  Most of the earth's crust consists of sedimentary rocks. These were originally formed in almost all cases under water, usually by deposition after transportation by water.
Fact:  Sedimentary beds are assigned ages based on the fossils found therein.


Those are indeed facts. Only problem is, we see completely different species in the sediments, depending on the mountain range. You’d think we’d see the same kind of fossils in the Himalayas as we do in the Alps… but we don’t. Is that perhaps because completely different populations of underwater sea creatures existed in different areas of the ocean without assimilating whatsoever—like they do today? Maybe, but I’m not buying it, especially since the fossilized populations found on one mountain range differ from those found on another not only in taxonomy, but in age as well.

Fossils require very rapid burial and compaction to be preserved at all. Ergo sedimentary formations are formed rapidly and more and more present-day geologists are returning to this point of view.


Yes, fossils require rapid burial and compaction. Washing the bones away with countless volumes of water, I’m afraid, won’t do the trick.

That’s not even getting to the fact that we should see mass extinction after mass extinction after mass extinction. We should find billions of fossils all over the place, with massive quarries full of the bones of snakes, sauropods, and smiledons, along with horses, hippopotamuses, and hippies. (Okay, not hippies, but I couldn’t resist the alliteration.) However, we don’t. And what’s more, fossils of animals that are very inept at swimming are found buried on top of those that swim quite well. (At least, I don’t know many people who can out-swim sharks the size of cars.

Fact:  Since there is known to be a global continuity of sedimentary formations in the geologic column and since each unit was formed rapidly, the entire geologic column seems to be the product of continuous rapid deposition of sediments, comprising in effect the geological record of a time when "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."


Oceans, by themselves, deposit sedimentary rock and make those layers. That’s no inconsistency either, seeing as how it is a fact all land was at one time under water. But you won’t find many geologists who will agree sedimentary layers can be formed in mere days. Sedimentation takes a long period of compression to occur.

Fact:  The types of rocks, the vast extent of specific sedimentary rock formations, the minerals and metals, coal and oil found in rocks, the various types of structures (i.e., faults, folds, thrusts, etc.), sedimentary rocks grossly deformed while still soft from recent deposition, and numerous other features seem to occur indiscriminately throughout the various "ages" supposedly represented in the column. To all outward appearances, therefore, they were all formed in essentially the same brief time period.


If you’re talking about individual sedimentary layers forming at the same time, all you have to do is take out the word “brief,” and you’re getting somewhere. If not, and you’re talking about every single layer on earth’s crust forming simultaneously, I’ll remind that not all layers are even sedimentary. No, igneous rock is not a sediment.

Fact:  The fossil sequences in the sedimentary rocks are not exception to this rule, for there is a circular reasoning process involved in using them to identify their supposed age. That is, the fossils have been dated by the rocks where they are found, which in turn had been dated by their imbedded fossils with the sequences based on their relative assumed stages of evolution, which had ultimately been based on the ancient philosophy of the "great chain of being."


That very well may be the situation with carbon-14, but that simply doesn’t apply to the three isotopes of uranium. How else in the world do you suspect we determined the earth was 4.5 billion years old, if the fossils only go back 2.5 billion years?

Instead of representing the evolution of life over many ages, the fossils really speak of the destruction of life in one age, with their actual local "sequences" having been determined by the ecological communities in which they were living at the time of burial.


I see. So a heard of duckbilled dinosaurs was buried, and then systemically crushed by another entirely different heard of dinosaurs that happened to float to the bottom of the ocean at a later time? I really don’t follow on this one. No matter how hard I try, I can’t picture why several different ecological communities are buried on top of one another. That’s like New York getting buried on top of Los Angeles. Neither does it explain why the radioisotope dating taken from all areas of one layer are always found to be older than the portions of the layer on top of it.


(Edited by EntwickelnCollin 4/19/2006 at 11:04 PM).


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 11:02 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Going to bed so I'll reply to the one I know off the top of my head (and I'm cutting and pasting from Wikipedia cause I'm too tired to write all this down.   )

Greek
Greek mythology knows two floods, ending two Ages of Man, the Silver Age, and the First Brazen Age. The first was the Ogygian Deluge, the second that of Deucalion.

The Ogygian flood (so called becuse it occurred in the time of Ogyges, founder and king of Thebes.) covered the whole world and was so devastating that the country remained without kings until the reign of Cecrops. [1]

The Deucalion legend as told by Apollodorus in The Library has some similarity to Noah's flood: Prometheus advised his son Deucalion to build a chest. All other men perished except for a few who escaped to high mountains. The mountains in Thessaly were parted, and all the world beyond the Isthmus and Peloponnese was overwhelmed. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha, after floating in the chest for nine days and nights, landed on Parnassus. An older version of the story told by Hellanicus has Deucalion's "ark" landing on Mount Othrys in Thessaly. Another account has him landing on a peak, probably Phouka, in Argolis, later called Nemea. When the rains ceased, he sacrificed to Zeus. Then, at the bidding of Zeus, he threw stones behind him, and they became men, and the stones which Pyrrha threw became women. Appollodorus gives this as an aitiology for Greek laos "people" as derived from laos "stone". The Megarians told that Megarus, son of Zeus, escaped Deucalion's flood by swimming to the top of Mount Gerania, guided by the cries of Cranes.

Plato's Timaeus (22) refers to the "great deluge of all" and Critias (111-112) refers to the "great destruction of Deucalion." In addition, the texts report that "many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years" since Athens and Atlantis were preeminent.

and since Roman and Greek mythologies tend to go hand in hand....

"Jupiter, angered at the evil ways of humanity, resolved to destory it. He was about to set the earth to burning, but considered that that might set heaven itself afire, so he decided to flood the earth instead. With Neptune's help, he caused storm and earthquake to flood everything but the summit of Parnassus, where Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha found refuge. Recognizing their piety, Jupiter let them live and withdrew the flood. Deucalion and Pyrrha, at the adivce of an oracle, repopulated the world by throwing stones behind them; each stone became a person."

which (aside from "god" names) pretty identical to the Greek version.




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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 11:25 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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Well, rats. I'll have to look this stuff up when I get home from school.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 07:25 AM on April 20, 2006 | IP
RoyLennigan

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Quote from mythrandir at 08:43 AM on April 19, 2006 :
my point exactly.  what people are now saying about the flood, people used to say about ninevah.  but look what happened in that situation!


darwin saw a flower in the amazon that had a huge opening in the middle and was very deep with a sticky residue inside.  he postulated that since no other observable creature could get inside, that there must be an insect, most likely a moth, that had a proboscus long enough to reach into the flower to get nectar.  sure enough, this moth was found!

 


Posts: 152 | Posted: 09:25 AM on April 20, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from EMyers at 9:59 PM on April 19, 2006 :
Fact:  All the mountains of the world have been under water at some time or other in the past, as indicated by sedimentary rocks and marine fossils near their summits.


All is a mighty big word, can you give some examples of these marine fossils from the White Mountains in New Hampshire?

Even most volcanic mountains with their pillow lavas seem largely to have been formed when under water.


Such as Paracutin in Mexico?


Fact:  Most of the earth's crust consists of sedimentary rocks.


Only if "most" means 5%.

Wikipedia-Igneous rocks make up approximately ninety five percent of the upper part of the Earth's crust


Fact:  Sedimentary beds are assigned ages based on the fossils found therein.  


No, they are identified by fossils, the ages are assigned by radiometrically dating igneous rocks associated with them.


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Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 5:00 PM on April 20, 2006 | IP
    
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