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mythrandir

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how did the bat evolve? (ill reply to your answer)
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 10:14 AM on April 19, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Actually, you're in luck, I just read a new article on this a couple of days ago, I think in Science, but it must be an online version since I don't see it in the current issue.

They found a certain developmental control gene that causes expression of the large "fingers".  Bat and mice embryos are almost identical until this gene kicks in and causes rapid growth of the bones that form the wings.

Until I locate this article again to get you more inforamation, go look up this:

Science 28 January 2005:
Vol. 307. no. 5709, pp. 580 - 584
DOI: 10.1126/science.1105113

A Molecular Phylogeny for Bats Illuminates Biogeography and the Fossil Record
Emma C. Teeling, Mark S. Springer, Ole Madsen, Paul Bates, Stephen J. O'Brien, William J. Murphy

Bats make up more than 20% of extant mammals, yet their evolutionary history is largely unknown because of a limited fossil record and conflicting or incomplete phylogenies. Here, we present a highly resolved molecular phylogeny for all extant bat families. Our results support the hypothesis that megabats are nested among four major microbat lineages, which originated in the early Eocene [52 to 50 million years ago (Mya)], coincident with a significant global rise in temperature, increase in plant diversity and abundance, and the zenith of Tertiary insect diversity. Our data suggest that bats originated in Laurasia, possibly in North America, and that three of the major microbat lineages are Laurasian in origin, whereas the fourth is Gondwanan. Combining principles of ghost lineage analysis with molecular divergence dates, we estimate that the bat fossil record underestimates (unrepresented basal branch length, UBBL) first occurrences by, on average, 73% and that the sum of missing fossil history is 61%.


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 10:52 AM on April 19, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Color me non-scientific but....

conflicting or incomplete phylogenies

Our data suggest

we estimate that the bat fossil record underestimates

I'm not seeing what, exactly, this information is representing to answer the question how did the bat evolve?

I'm not saying it doesn't.... I'm just saying that I don't see it.


-------
"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 11:34 AM on April 19, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from EMyers at 11:34 AM on April 19, 2006 :

I'm not seeing what, exactly, this information is representing to answer the question how did the bat evolve?



Bat Evolution

Perhaps a simpler explanation would have been: A mutation of the BMP2 gene that was heavily selected for.

However, I've not had time to find the new article I read last week, which builds upon the older research.


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 11:52 AM on April 19, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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sorry, i guess i didnt phrase my question right. 1. from what animal did the bat evolve?
2. what was the animal like during transition from mouselike animal to bat?
3. how long did it take?
4. can i have it in english this time? i have no idea what extant, phylogeny, megabat, microbat, or ghost lineage analysis is. i know they mean something, but i seriously have never heard of them.
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 12:14 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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I will go dig out some articles and summarize them as best I can, but I'd appreciate an equal outlay of time on your end.  

Why don't you go to the library,read the entire article, copy it, and to through it with a good science dictionary?  It's no more than you're asking of us.


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 12:27 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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what library? thats not really possible for me.  if theres a web article- great! id love to read it and translate it.  but i kindof wanted to hear it from another person here.  if it means going to a library for you- forget it.
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 12:50 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from mythrandir at 12:50 PM on April 19, 2006 :
 if it means going to a library for you- forget it.


After you finish reviewing Matthew 7:12, you can start reading this:

Megabats Microbats


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 1:15 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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thanks
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 1:26 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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[center]"Little is known about the evolution of bats, since their small, delicate skeletons do not fossilize well. However a late Cretaceous tooth from South America resembles that of an early Microchiropteran bat. The oldest known definite bat fossils, such as Icaronycteris, Archaeonycteris, Palaeochiropteryx and Hassianycteris, are from the early Eocene (about 50 million years ago), but they were already very similar to modern microbats. Archaeopteropus, formerly classified as the earliest known megachiropteran, is now classified as a microchiropteran.

Bats are traditionally grouped with the tree shrews (Scandentia), colugos (Dermoptera), and the primates in superorder Archonta because of the similarities between Megachiroptera and these mammals. However, molecular studies have placed them as sister group to Ferungulata, a large grouping including carnivorans, pangolins, odd-toed ungulates, even-toed ungulates, and whales."

so the bat evolved from a non-winged mammal. ok, imagine the animal during the transition. its finger bones elongated over a long period of time. therefore the transitional forms had long finger bones, but still couldnt fly. the transitional form's long fingers would be nearly useless.  therefore, the transitional form would be weaker and less adapted to its environment than the animal it evolved from.  natural selection would wipe out the transitional form long before it gained the ability to fly and evolved into a bat.
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 1:39 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from mythrandir at 1:39 PM on April 19, 2006 :
therefore, the transitional form would be weaker and less adapted to its environment than the animal it evolved from.  natural selection would wipe out the transitional form long before it gained the ability to fly and evolved into a bat.


How do you know this?





-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 2:20 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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the transitional form's phalanges would be elongated.  this is not an improved situation until the rest of the transitional form's body develops and he gains the ability to fly.  therefore, as i said before, the initial creatures would, by mean of natural selection, kill out the transitional form.
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 3:11 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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the transitional form's phalanges would be elongated.  this is not an improved situation until the rest of the transitional form's body develops and he gains the ability to fly.  therefore, as i said before, the initial creatures would, by mean of natural selection, kill out the transitional form.


It would not need the ability to fly at all. It starts off as a rodent that jumps from tree-branch to tree-branch. Then small flaps of skin are developed. The flaps of skin enable the rodents to jump longer distances and fall slower. The flaps of skin grow bigger over the generations, until the fingers start lengthening, thus making room for more skin flap. In what way are the phalanges useless when first elongated?


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 3:44 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from mythrandir at 3:11 PM on April 19, 2006 :
the transitional form's phalanges would be elongated.  this is not an improved situation until the rest of the transitional form's body develops and he gains the ability to fly.  therefore, as i said before, the initial creatures would, by mean of natural selection, kill out the transitional form.


So the basis of your argument is that the theory of differential reproductive success via selection is correct?





-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 3:52 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from EntwickelnCollin at 3:44 PM on April 19, 2006 :

It would not need the ability to fly at all. It starts off as a rodent that jumps from tree-branch to tree-branch. Then small flaps of skin are developed. The flaps of skin enable the rodents to jump longer distances and fall slower. The flaps of skin grow bigger over the generations, until the fingers start lengthening, thus making room for more skin flap. In what way are the phalanges useless when first elongated?


I'll point out in passing that the webbing between digits is a feature that is lost during the development of an embryo, so the mutation to keep it would be minor.  Many humans are born with webbed fingers.


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 3:58 PM on April 19, 2006 | IP
RoyLennigan

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Quote from mythrandir at 10:11 AM on April 19, 2006 :
the transitional form's phalanges would be elongated.  this is not an improved situation until the rest of the transitional form's body develops and he gains the ability to fly.  therefore, as i said before, the initial creatures would, by mean of natural selection, kill out the transitional form.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_squirrel
 


Posts: 152 | Posted: 09:34 AM on April 20, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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roy- i followed your link, whats it got to do with this topic?

ok, im assuming the bat evolved from some insectivore. insectivores depend on their forepaws for grasping and runnning.  when they are, say, half way from insectivore to bat, then they have forepaws which are not as good for grasping and running as other insectivores.  insert natural selection and the transitional form is wiped out.
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 2:58 PM on April 20, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from mythrandir at 2:58 PM on April 20, 2006 :
ok, im assuming the bat evolved from some insectivore. insectivores depend on their forepaws for grasping and runnning.  

OK

when they are, say, half way from insectivore to bat, then they have forepaws which are not as good for grasping and running as other insectivores.  insert natural selection and the transitional form is wiped out.


Suppose they are better instead, what happens then?

(BTW, I found the article, it's in PNAS instead of Science, but I haven't had time to go through it sorry, still catching up after having been gone almost a month)




-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 3:24 PM on April 20, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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ok, im assuming the bat evolved from some insectivore. insectivores depend on their forepaws for grasping and runnning.  


For the third time: skin flaps developed first--then the longer fingers. That's the relevance of Roy's link to flying squirrels.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 4:03 PM on April 20, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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so what would the animal half way between bat and insectivore look like?  please describe it.
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 3:16 PM on April 21, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from mythrandir at 3:16 PM on April 21, 2006 :
so what would the animal half way between bat and insectivore look like?  please describe it.


How about a flying squirrel that could spead it's skin  flaps further and therefore glide further?



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 3:39 PM on April 21, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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ok, im thinking early in the evolutionary process here.  a tiny bit of extra webbing isnt enough to allow flying or gliding, right?  and it does, if only slightly, reduce the animal's grasping ability, right?
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 2:52 PM on April 24, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from mythrandir at 2:52 PM on April 24, 2006 :
ok, im thinking early in the evolutionary process here.  a tiny bit of extra webbing isnt enough to allow flying or gliding, right?  and it does, if only slightly, reduce the animal's grasping ability, right?


But we already see that the flying squirrel glides quite nicely without longer fingers.  More aerofoil would be an advantage, wouldn't it?



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 3:09 PM on April 24, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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yeah, but i said i was talking about the first stages of the evolution.  BEFORE the webbing allows the animal to glide.  
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 3:25 PM on April 24, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from mythrandir at 3:25 PM on April 24, 2006 :
yeah, but i said i was talking about the first stages of the evolution.  BEFORE the webbing allows the animal to glide.  


How did you decide that that was the first stage?



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 3:32 PM on April 24, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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"It would not need the ability to fly at all. It starts off as a rodent that jumps from tree-branch to tree-branch. Then small flaps of skin are developed. The flaps of skin enable the rodents to jump longer distances and fall slower. The flaps of skin grow bigger over the generations, until the fingers start lengthening, thus making room for more skin flap."  first step- small flaps of skin are developed.  ok, i have to go, so this is my last post
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 3:40 PM on April 24, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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yeah, but i said i was talking about the first stages of the evolution.  BEFORE the webbing allows the animal to glide.  


What do you mean? It takes a single mutation to take the skin all out of whack like that. Apoapsis already demonstrated a situation in which such rodents would be at a disadvantage among other land-walking shrews, but if they had made it into the trees, where their flappy skin would have been beneficial, they would not have gone extinct.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 11:05 PM on April 25, 2006 | IP
RoyLennigan

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Quote from mythrandir at 10:25 AM on April 24, 2006 :
yeah, but i said i was talking about the first stages of the evolution.  BEFORE the webbing allows the animal to glide.  


punctuated equilibrium is the most accepted view of evolution right now and i would have to agree with its points.  even after one generation, a mutation or reorganization of genes can cause such skin flaps as the ones we are talking about.  changes do not occur as gradually as once thought, but rather as minor mutations that could potentially have major implications, depending on where in the order of dna it is, and how the rest of the dna is affected by that one area.
 


Posts: 152 | Posted: 3:40 PM on April 26, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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Quote from RoyLennigan at 3:40 PM on April 26, 2006 :
Quote from mythrandir at 10:25 AM on April 24, 2006 :
yeah, but i said i was talking about the first stages of the evolution.  BEFORE the webbing allows the animal to glide.  


punctuated equilibrium is the most accepted view of evolution right now and i would have to agree with its points.  even after one generation, a mutation or reorganization of genes can cause such skin flaps as the ones we are talking about.  changes do not occur as gradually as once thought, but rather as minor mutations that could potentially have major implications, depending on where in the order of dna it is, and how the rest of the dna is affected by that one area.


ok, i was arguing against those who believe that each little step took thousands of years.


 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 08:25 AM on May 3, 2006 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from mythrandir at 08:25 AM on May 3, 2006 :
Quote from RoyLennigan at 3:40 PM on April 26, 2006 :
Quote from mythrandir at 10:25 AM on April 24, 2006 :
yeah, but i said i was talking about the first stages of the evolution.  BEFORE the webbing allows the animal to glide.  


punctuated equilibrium is the most accepted view of evolution right now and i would have to agree with its points.  even after one generation, a mutation or reorganization of genes can cause such skin flaps as the ones we are talking about.  changes do not occur as gradually as once thought, but rather as minor mutations that could potentially have major implications, depending on where in the order of dna it is, and how the rest of the dna is affected by that one area.

ok, i was arguing against those who believe that each little step took thousands of years.


But that pretty much is what they say.

Punctuated Equilibrium

According to Gould and Eldredge, speciation events are still “gradual,” in the sense that evolution must still proceed by natural selection acting upon very small-steps of intermediate variation in the speciating population. The punctuational model should thus not be confused with a saltational model of evolutionary change, where intermediate forms never even existed.

Various estimates have been put forth for how long a speciation event might take, but statements by Gould and Eldredge have ranged from anywhere from estimating hundreds, to 50,000 years.  According to Gould and Eldredge, such a small amount of geological time would represent only a thin slice of bedding plane in rock strata, and thus the chances that an organism bearing intermediate, transitional morphology might get fossilized is greatly diminished.  



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 12:41 PM on May 3, 2006 | IP
slowdownandthink

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i find the explanation that bats evolved flaps then elongated fingers and the more flap so they could fly as opposed to glide plausible. look at a hang glider after all, wat is it besides skin flaps that stick out straightly and can come off?

(Edited by slowdownandthink 7/17/2006 at 9:10 PM).


-------
Think before you jump.

Equality is the only fair thing.

Question all your beliefs before you believe them, you might find you dont believe them.
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 9:09 PM on July 17, 2006 | IP
    
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