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fehrge

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I am posting this because I want people to see why I believe in God and therefore in the  biblical account of creation. First of all I don't have any hard scientific evidence that there is a God, but here are just some of my personal reasons. First of all I have seen changes in people when they became a Christian that would never have happened without help from a supernatural power. Second of all man's conscience. Even though people may be convicted differently I would say that generally people know the difference between right and wrong. Also, when along the line of evolution did man receive things like morals and a free will. Althouh I am not a scientist, I would say that from all the animals I have seen or heard about, none of them make their own free will choices. Almost everything they do is natural for animals. Finally my biggest reason is one that I cannot really explain. When I see the awesomness of nature and hope he gives me I know that there is a God. But like I said my belief in God and evolution is mostly faith. But this is just my beliefs, and everyone has there own.
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 4:11 PM on May 3, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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I am posting this because I want people to see why I believe in God and therefore in the  biblical account of creation. First of all I don't have any hard scientific evidence that there is a God, but here are just some of my personal reasons. First of all I have seen changes in people when they became a Christian that would never have happened without help from a supernatural power. Second of all man's conscience. Even though people may be convicted differently I would say that generally people know the difference between right and wrong. Also, when along the line of evolution did man receive things like morals and a free will. Althouh I am not a scientist, I would say that from all the animals I have seen or heard about, none of them make their own free will choices. Almost everything they do is natural for animals. Finally my biggest reason is one that I cannot really explain. When I see the awesomness of nature and hope he gives me I know that there is a God. But like I said my belief in God and evolution is mostly faith. But this is just my beliefs, and everyone has there own.


That is exactly the argument of faith you should be proposing. People who try to fit such things under the label of science are fooling themselves, and they should not be concerned with any scientific evidence for or against their religion.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 4:15 PM on May 3, 2006 | IP
EarlofLade

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Quote from fehrge at 4:11 PM on May 3, 2006 :
First of all I have seen changes in people when they became a Christian that would never have happened without help from a supernatural power.

And you know that the only possible explanation is supernatural because????
Quote from fehrge at 4:11 PM on May 3, 2006 :
Second of all man's conscience. Even though people may be convicted differently I would say that generally people know the difference between right and wrong.


What's that got to do with a god?
Quote from fehrge at 4:11 PM on May 3, 2006 :
Also, when along the line of evolution did man receive things like morals and a free will. Althouh I am not a scientist, I would say that from all the animals I have seen or heard about, none of them make their own free will choices.

Oh Yeah?

And I'm sure you dont have a single example to support that ridiculous claim?
Quote from fehrge at 4:11 PM on May 3, 2006 :
Almost everything they do is natural for animals.

What is natural for animals and what does it have to do with a god?
Quote from fehrge at 4:11 PM on May 3, 2006 :
Finally my biggest reason is one that I cannot really explain. When I see the awesomness of nature and hope he gives me I know that there is a God.


I see..
It's like "Because something is beautifule and i don't understand it, there must be a god."
Nope, no such thing is necessary.
Quote from fehrge at 4:11 PM on May 3, 2006 :
But like I said my belief in God and evolution is mostly faith. But this is just my beliefs, and everyone has there own.

Another I believe in god because I don't understand the world around and god is a warm and fuzzy explanation and makes me feel good.



 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 2:49 PM on July 31, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I could be wrong, but I thought this was a debate forum.  Perhaps if you could kindly give the evidence you are using to counter the points that were made instead of yelling "No it's not!"  "Prove it!" then a constructive conversation might take shape.  So far, I'm not sure what precisely you are debating.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 5:59 PM on July 31, 2006 | IP
Primate

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Quote from EMyers at 5:59 PM on July 31, 2006 :
I could be wrong, but I thought this was a debate forum.  Perhaps if you could kindly give the evidence you are using to counter the points that were made instead of yelling "No it's not!"  "Prove it!" then a constructive conversation might take shape.  So far, I'm not sure what precisely you are debating.


It's called logical argument. Keep working and you may get it in time.

I just love the way some of you guys think faith is really great, and then ask for evidence whenever you read something you can't handle. Has it ever occurred to you that there's some inconsistency there? Hello??


 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 6:32 PM on August 28, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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I just love the way some of you guys think faith is really great, and then ask for evidence whenever you read something you can't handle.


There's no hypocrisy in requiring no evidence to have faith in a religion while requiring evidence for scientific statements.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 8:51 PM on August 28, 2006 | IP
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There's no hypocrisy in requiring no evidence to have faith in a religion while requiring evidence for scientific statements.


That may be your opinion, but it certainly isn't mine. Why shouldn't religious statements of fact (for example, "There is a God") not be subject to the same levels of rigour and scrutiny that scientific ones are (for example, "Humans are evolved from apes")?

Any statement about the nature of things is open to the legitimate response, "Oh really - how do you know?"

If religious claims aren't subject to this, then they're not really statements of fact at all and don't really mean anything very much. If their validity isn't derived from being capable of being substantiated, then where could any validity possibly some from? But that's pretty obvious, I suppose.



 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 08:28 AM on August 29, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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That may be your opinion, but it certainly isn't mine. Why shouldn't religious statements of fact (for example, "There is a God") not be subject to the same levels of rigour and scrutiny that scientific ones are (for example, "Humans are evolved from apes")?


One statement is scientific; the other is not. It's impossible to falsify the notion that there is a God, and so the question cannot be answered by science.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 10:45 AM on August 29, 2006 | IP
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Yes, I understand the epistemology. That's exactly why I saying that religious claims don't have the same status as scientific ones; nor should they. And as they haven't - well, that makes them pretty much redundant factually speaking, doesn't it?

If you make a statement like "This tree is deciduous", it actually means something; it contains some information and is, of course, falsifiable. What does a statement like "Jesus died so that we could be forgiven" actually tell us, apart from something about the beliefs of the person making the statement? There's no other information in there at all. And, as you say, it's unfalsifiable (apologies for the tautology here, just wanted to be absolutely clear on this point).

Just because something is unfalsifiable, that doesn't mean that it's automatically worth taking seriously. On the contrary, it renders it of no value whatsoever when trying to establish facts, only opinions.


 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 2:38 PM on August 29, 2006 | IP
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Yes, I understand the epistemology. That's exactly why I saying that religious claims don't have the same status as scientific ones; nor should they.


I don't think they're even comparable. Science answers the "How?" and religion answers the "Why?" I don't need an answer to the "Why?" while others do.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 3:13 PM on August 29, 2006 | IP
Primate

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I don't think they're even comparable. Science answers the "How?" and religion answers the "Why?" I don't need an answer to the "Why?" while others do.


I agree completely. The fact that we CAN'T answer the "Why?" should prevent any intelligent person from bothering to ask it, in my view. I mean, what's the point if you can't answer it? There is none. And who said there has to be an answer to that question, anyway?

The point I was making was simply that religious statements have no validity in terms of establishing facts, whereas scientific ones do. Some people claim that a religious outlook is as "valid" as a scientific one (or, worse, MORE correct) because they don't understand the difference between fact and opinion.


 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 3:35 PM on August 29, 2006 | IP
fredguff

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The point I was making was simply that religious statements have no validity in terms of establishing facts, whereas scientific ones do. Some people claim that a religious outlook is as "valid" as a scientific one (or, worse, MORE correct) because they don't understand the difference between fact and opinion.


I think the most anybody can say about "answers", be they religious or philosophical or whatever is that some of them have scientific value (falsifiable,provide explanatory and predictive value etc.) and some don't.  The fact that some answers are not scientifically valid does not necessarily make them incorrect or wrong for everybody.  For instance, if I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ or Buddha and find that by doing so I live a happier  more productive life, then the non-scientific answers provided by these teachings are correct for me.  Of course one could argue that there are actually scientific reasons that explain my "peace of mind" but I might not have the time or interest level to search for them. I can be content knowing that for whatever reason, the religious answers work. To put it another way, if  I can get a drug addict to stop his or her destructive behavior and lead a happier life by introducing him or her to Christianity or Buddhism, then I have provided him or her with the "correct" or "right" answers even though they are not neccessarily valid from a scientific standpoint.  
Don't get me wrong, when I feel somebody is  using deceit to deny my scientific truths because they conflict with their religious beliefs, I will call them out.  Aside from my friend Ed Myers and a few others, most of the Christians I meet in evolution forums use deceitful tactics when they denigrate the theory of evolution.  Which is why on occasion I will attack a creationist even though they don't necessarily deserve it.  Hey...I'm only human...It's not like I am Jesus or anything!
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 09:52 AM on August 30, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Hey!  Was that last comment sarcasm?  


-------
"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:20 AM on August 30, 2006 | IP
Primate

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Fred and Ed (if I may call you that?)

I understand that many positive things have been achieved under a religious umbrella, and I subscribe myself to a lot of values espoused by good people like yourselves. Most of my righteous wrath is indeed reserved for people who deliberately misrepresent facts, or at least refuse to accept them, because to do otherwise would challenge their preconceptions about how they would like the world to be. I'm talking about Phillip Morris, Duane Gish, John Mackay et al.

Just looking at the posts on this forum is something I find quite disturbing. There is definitely a "resurgence of ignorance" taking place in recent years, propagated by a sizeable minority of people with a dangerous desire to keep people stupid. I don't want my kids to grow up in a world dominated by people who think the world is 6000 years old, or that we're going to hell unless we love Jesus. We should have grown out of that by now.

Another person's faith is something I don't find threatening, even though I don't share it myself. Attempts to undermine science, hijack education and enforce religious conformity are, however, things I care about a lot.
 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 11:42 AM on August 30, 2006 | IP
fredguff

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I understand that many positive things have been achieved under a religious umbrella, and I subscribe myself to a lot of values espoused by good people like yourselves. Most of my righteous wrath is indeed reserved for people who deliberately misrepresent facts, or at least refuse to accept them, because to do otherwise would challenge their preconceptions about how they would like the world to be. I'm talking about Phillip Morris, Duane Gish, John Mackay et al.


I would go further and characterize the actions of many (not all) of the creationist promoters as simply a way to defraud naive believers of their money.  They are using the same flim-flammery that has made guys like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell multi-millionaires (or at least live like them).  
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 12:12 PM on August 30, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Sadly I agree.  But understand, those same people (if there were no "religion") would simply find another scam to use.  Unfortunately, those who actually do want nothing more than to make a difference have to put up with the Robertsons, Falwells, Oral Roberts and Salvation Armies of the world.  And no, I am not going to die tomorrow if you don't send me four million dollars (or, at least, it won't be because I didn't get the money).  I like the old 80's song "Would Jesus wear a Rolex on his television show?".  Hypocrisy is everywhere, it just looks worse when the person is promoting God.

(Edited by EMyers 8/30/2006 at 2:33 PM).


-------
"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:20 PM on August 30, 2006 | IP
    
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