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       Found in China

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wisp

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Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 11:01 PM on November 27, 2009 | IP
timbrx

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I see one of two things:

1. very clever doctoring of a picture posted on the internet.

Unlikely since pictures can never really be so convincingly doctored and since nobody has ever posted a lie on the internet. (Sarcasm )

2. Evidence for the truth of the Bible.

How could the "myth writer" of 4000 years ago have guessed that snakes might still contain genetic information for legs? The serpent was "cursed" to crawl on it's belly. It stands to reason that it must have had legs prior to the curse. Maybe God inhibited the trait rather than removed it entirely?  
 


Posts: 226 | Posted: 10:20 AM on November 30, 2009 | IP
Lester10

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Nice Timbrx!
I took a look at this one -wondered briefly who stuck the foot on but forgot about that old snake in the garden of Eden. Now that's great Biblical thinking there.

Really I should have done what Wisp wants me to do and admit to being clueless rather than passing by the ones I don't have the answers for, but I am just not the possessor of sufficient humility (or perhaps my connection is too slow to be bothered with those ones.)


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Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 11:02 AM on November 30, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Hahaha! Very good one indeed, Timbrx!

But now that i think about it... Aren't you admitting to vestigiality?

You had ferociously denied vestigiality in the snake before (regarding its pelvis). Now you admit it.

Now the honest thing to do would be to admit that you might have been wrong regarding vestigiality, since you don't know what God did and how.

Your hypothesis sounds like Yahweh's curse wasn't perfect, but that doesn't take the merit away from your imaginative and smart reply.
Lester
Nice Timbrx!
Do you see how imagination can come in handy, Lester? You cheerfully congratulate it when it comes from Timbrx (aside from how much factual basis it has). And when WE're imaginative you talk about it like it's a disgrace.



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Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:14 PM on November 30, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from wisp at 12:14 PM on November 30, 2009 :
Do you see how imagination can come in handy, Lester? You cheerfully congratulate it when it comes from Timbrx (aside from how much factual basis it has). And when WE're imaginative you talk about it like it's a disgrace.


You don't understand Wisp, this kind of imagination comes from the Bible! It's okay to speculate on the real world if the foundation is the inherent, infallible Word of God! If we use our own sense and reason we are doomed for failure, if we use God's wisdom we are sure to succeed, it's that simple.


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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 4:41 PM on November 30, 2009 | IP
wisp

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Timbrx: There's no vestigiality.
Lester: Vestigiality comes from corruption of the information.
Timbrx: Vestigiality comes from Yahweh's curse.

I'm ok with the last one. Really! But be honest and take the former back. "I don't know" would be very appropriate, under the given circumstances.

I'm actually ok with all of them, if you're willing to put them to the test (and change your mind if the test fails). Because they are not supposed to be metaphysical claims, but physical ones (even if a "supernatural" entity intervenes, or you don't know what you mean when you say "information").

When you devise tests able to falsify your hypotheses, you get closer and closer to knowing what you're talking about.



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Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 7:00 PM on November 30, 2009 | IP
timbrx

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Wisp,
I presume you are suggesting that the snake foot is an evolutionary vestige while I am suggesting that it is a Biblical vestige. Fair enough.
You are correct that I had previously denied vestigiality with respect to evolution. I have put forward the case that for vestigiality to be evidence for evolution than it must presuppose evolution and is therefore circular reasoning.
If I state an opinion that a snake foot evidences the truth of scripture than I must likewise presuppose scripture to be true. Also circular reasoning.
Both presuppositions are based on faith and do not represent empirical science. The fact of unexplained structures within an organisms physiology is where the science ends. Perhaps some day derwoods students will unravel the genetic code to the point of offering a hard scientific explanation for seeming vestiges. My belief is that it will not reveal proof of evolution but rather will expose even greater questions about the complexity of life.
 


Posts: 226 | Posted: 11:15 PM on November 30, 2009 | IP
wisp

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I presume you are suggesting that the snake foot is an evolutionary vestige
Something quite similar to that, yeah.
You are correct that I had previously denied vestigiality with respect to evolution.
You had denied vestigiality, period.
I have put forward the case that for vestigiality to be evidence for evolution than it must presuppose evolution and is therefore circular reasoning.
Yes, and that was wrong. There's no trace of circular reasoning there. The ToE explains and predicts vestigiality. Vestigiality is just one of millions of pieces of evidence supporting Evolution. They don't do the same for each other.
If I state an opinion that a snake foot evidences the truth of scripture than I must likewise presuppose scripture to be true. Also circular reasoning.
To be fair, no. No circular reasoning there either. You can use the Bible to explain vestigiality, and use vestigiality as evidence for the Bible. That's not circular reasoning, because those two don't do the same for each other.

One explains the other, the other demonstrates the one.

No circularity whatsoever.

Both presuppositions are based on faith and do not represent empirical science.
Haha! No. xD

We tend not to presuppose anything that the evidence hasn't told us before (whether we're right about it or not).

You need no evidence. That's faith.

I'm not telling you we're right. But no, no faith.

The fact of unexplained structures within an organisms physiology is where the science ends.
What do you mean by "unexplained"?

We can explain them easily. Those things don't surprise us much.

Wings. Those would surprise us.

What would surprise you? Nothing.

Perhaps some day derwoods students will unravel the genetic code to the point of offering a hard scientific explanation for seeming vestiges.
I don't see any difficulty. Those feet are reptilian. They are homologous to our own feet. The same genes makes them.

I'm not sure what you're asking. For the genes to explain vestigiality without using Evolution? I don't think that's possible.

I don't think you can explain many things from Biology without Evolution.

My belief is that it will not reveal proof of evolution but rather will expose even greater questions about the complexity of life.

You used the secret wooord!!! =D

There are no proofs in Science.



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Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:24 AM on December 1, 2009 | IP
wisp

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So anyway... The snake was a snake then?

No disguised Satan?

I mean, if Yahweh punished snakes...

I don't get it. Was it Satan in disguise or just an almost regular talking snake?

The Bible treats it as a snake (who was more subtle than the OTHER beasts of the field which the Lord had made).

What a confusing religion...



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 08:16 AM on December 7, 2009 | IP
wisp

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I still want to know.

Did snakes have feet originally? Did Yahweh take them away as a punishment to snakes only because Satan dressed up like one?

Wait... Did Satan scam Yahweh?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 6:05 PM on December 27, 2009 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from wisp at 6:05 PM on December 27, 2009 :
I still want to know.

Did snakes have feet originally? Did Yahweh take them away as a punishment to snakes only because Satan dressed up like one?

Wait... Did Satan scam Yahweh?



As you may have noticed, YEC theology is not the most enlightening... Or sensible... Or even coherent for the most part.

As far as I can tell, YECs believe that snakes had legs (that's why they have vestigial leg bones). After Satan turned himself into a physical snake that can talk, or possessed some poor innocent snake by force, God cursed all the snakes by removing their legs.

Similarly, Adam and Eve were completely innocent and didn't know right from wrong, and when they were tricked into doing something wrong they actually were ashamed once they realized that it was wrong. But that wasn't enough for God, so he punished them and all their decedents. Of course I find this all funny in that the Bible explicitly states that you will not be punished for things you did not do. Not to mention all the internal inconsistencies with in YEC, and lets not even bring up the inconsistencies with reality.


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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 8:11 PM on December 27, 2009 | IP
wisp

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I'm sorry i can't be with you all the way, but that's pretty much what i think about Christianity in general.

Be that as it may, the figure of Satan reminds me a lot of Prometheus. He challenged the gods and brought fire to men.

If the biblical story was true, think i would rather worship Satan than Yahweh.

If Satan fights almighty Yahweh it's because:
a) Satan is a stupid god.
b) Satan is a courageous god.

And even Christians discard a).



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 9:56 PM on December 27, 2009 | IP
    
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