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     the true debate

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i have a simple question to pose to the creationists....most creationists seem to hold that evolution itself is a religion...lacking any evidence and only substained by faith...but this itself cannot be ure fundamental problem
with evolution can it....u obviously dont want evolutionists to stop believing their "religion" as u put it....so what are u debating against....is it just that u do not want the teaching of evolution in classes....is that the extent of ure prob with evolution
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 08:44 AM on January 21, 2003 | IP
lurch

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May I suggest that if you are unwilling or unable to register that you identify yourself with some sort of sig at the bottom of your messages? Thanks.

Your question is apparently a good one that no creationist can answer. Isn't it sad that I can?

Creationism depends on the fact that the Bible is literally true, both historically and scientifically, in every detail. Never mind that it says that bats are birds or that grasshoppers have 4 legs or that Pi = 3.0 - the Bible is true in every detail. To a creationist, if any minute detail of the Bible were to be in error, then the basis of their faith would be in doubt. If any part of the Bible (their god's eyewitness account) were wrong or in doubt, then any and all parts of the Bible could be wrong or doubtful. But there is no doubt that the Bible is the "word of GAWD."

That gives you the mindset to judge the issue.

Since the Bible is true in every detail, it must therefore follow that any idea that does not conform to a strict reading of the Bible is wrong. Thus, astronomy, physics, nuclear physics, astrophysics, biology, molecular biology, geology, geophysics, geobiology, cosmology, genetics, population genetics, and so more, are all wrong, sinful, and a Satanic conspiracy. Essentially, creationists reject science, except when it is useful for their purposes.

So the answer isn't a problem with "evolution." The problem is with science in general. The problem is that a rational and methodic study of our universe is not compatable with a literal reading of the mythology of nomadic herdsmen. Therefore, any such study must be rejected in favor of said mythology.

It is not that science attacks any religion. That is not the case. Science has no regard for religion. The problem is that creationists recognize that their faith cannot be true in light of modern science. Therefore, they cast science in the light of an attack on their faith and an effort to escape their god. It is even irrelevant to most creationists that many scientists, and even evolutionary biologists, are Christians.

These people don't realize that creationism is an animal that is, for the most part, restricted to the United States. Soon we will be a third world nation. Already we rank very near the bottom in the knowledge of math and science of our high school graduates as compared to industrialized nations. But our universities are still able to make up for the intentional ignorance. The more educated a person is, the less likely he/she is to be a creationist.

So I guess the answer to your question is that creationists object to education. Education requires effort. Creationists prefer mythology because they can understand simple stories.
 


Posts: 25 | Posted: 01:59 AM on January 23, 2003 | IP
DrStrangelove

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ok...so im registered....anyone wanna give me an answer....id prefer a creationist...since  however well meaning an evolutionists core argument will always be biased...

also to lurch...thx for reply but really ure answer covers more the creationists beliefs rather than their reason for argument....
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 05:31 AM on January 23, 2003 | IP
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"Thus, astronomy, physics, nuclear physics, astrophysics, biology, molecular biology, geology, geophysics, geobiology, cosmology, genetics, population genetics, and so more, are all wrong, sinful, and a Satanic conspiracy. Essentially, creationists reject science, except when it is useful for their purposes."

Ha! I find this humorous. How often do you hear a creationist rallying against these 'Satanic conspiracies'? Many scientist who believe in creation contribute to the scientific community. For example, one creationist is the co-inventor of Kevlar.
You make it sound like anyone who believes in creation is an uneducated dolt. Wait, you did say that:

"The more educated a person is, the less likely he/she is to be a creationist."

Another ridiculous statement. Would you care to show a shred of evidence for this remark?
I could give you a link to a site which shows the credentials of many scientists who believe in creation, but I'm sure you wouldn't even look at it. If you want to, just ask.


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:16 AM on January 23, 2003 | IP
lurch

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Sure. Here is a statement from a Gallup Poll press release from 2001.

Individuals with more education and people with higher incomes are more likely to think that evidence supports the theory of evolution. Younger people are also more likely than older people to think that evidence supports Darwins theory, perhaps reflecting the widespread teaching of evolution in the classroom in recent decades.


You'll find that here: http://www.asa3.org/archive/asa/200103/0031.html

A site that shows some of the numbers from 1991 and 1997 is http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm

Notice that 25% of college graduates are YECs while 65% of high school drop-outs are. Also, note that 29% of those with income over $50,000 are creationist while 59% of those with income below $20,000 are. Gallup reported on area of the country and urban/rural and a number of other things. Creationists tend to be southern, rural, less educated and less affluent than even theistic evolutionists.

Note also the views of scientists. From 1997, only 5% are creationists, 40% are theistic evolutionists, and 55% are evolutionists. That means that 95% of scientists recognize evolution as the best explanation for the observed facts. That number is higher among biologists.

As for creationists claiming satanic conspiracy, I've encountered it often. Even Henry Morris, Kent Hovind and Ken Ham claim that evolution is a lie invented by Satan. Frequently I have been told that I "believe" in evolution because I want to escape responsibility to the creationist god for my actions. The assumption is that since I am an evolutionary biologist that I am an atheist. Funny how creationists tend to think that theirs is the only true religion even though they are in a minority among Christians.

And a scientist working in some non-related field might contribute. But I doubt that any cosmologist is a creationist - religious perhaps, but not a YEC. Creationist does not equal Christian, by the way. And I've seen you list. It's probably the same one that is posted over and over. Why don't you check your own list and count the engineers and mathematicians as opposed to astrophysicists, cosmologists, geologists, biologists. Not too many "scientists" actually work in any field related to creationism.
 


Posts: 25 | Posted: 2:24 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
DrStrangelove

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this is the point of my argument....where is the
creationists debate....putting all proof aside i ask for a clear presentation of their argument....do u wish for evolution to be removed from school....are we to search through the bible to find all conflicts and then remove it...ofcourse this would also require us to search through the texts of all popular religous followings also for conflict....then must we remove all theories since ure argument also seems to imply that popular schools of thought are not evidence and could be misleading....then ofcourse quantum physics is out...oh and most phisical mechanisms....ok im going on abit....and maybe seeming extreme against creationists....i do not argue against u because i find ure beliefs wrong....and i certainly do not find ure beliefs stupid...it puzzles me even to read the writings of so called evolutionists siting evidence and calling those who do not agree ignorant....they seem to be the other side of the same coin believing totally what in essence is just a basic theory
i think they barely understand....but back to my question where is ure true debate...what do creationists find wrong....creationists as i see it are just basically religous people naming themselves creationists...or can i go as far as to say christians mostly....u believe in christ and his words or more correctly the words of men writing in his name....but as i see it ure argument is blurred in the extreme...where are u argueing from...u are all very adept at placing out point for point ure problems with the so called theory of  evolution and the proofs of creationism...please can u now give me the point for point reasons for ure arguement...what u wish to achieve and also why u find ths theory in particular wrong in the extreme compared to othe scientific theory and research
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 7:41 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
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hey wut is your name?? do you have a sn??
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:39 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
DrStrangelove

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i dont understand the question or what it has to do with thread...

also could the admin change the owner of this thread from guest to my name since i started it and seem to have forgotten the pass :0) i used so i cant edit it to my name thanx
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 05:51 AM on January 27, 2003 | IP
    
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