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derwood

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Over on another baord, there is a creationist with (of course) an engineering background that has boasted for years of giving evolution 'deprogramming' lectures ot teenagers at his church.  He's been asked dozens of times ot try his stuff on educated adults at that forum, but he has consistently refused to do so.  We found out why yesterday - he simply uses some pre-made powerpoint slides that are copyrighted.  Well, that and he is too stupid to understand the material he discusses.  Following is a nice slapdown of one of his condescending posts:

***

Lightwave:

Well, here's some fun. The observation is that the great apes have one more pair of chromosomes than humans. But the claim is that the genes of this missing chromosome have "found their way" to other chromosome through translocation/ dislocation



troglodyte:
No, the 'claim' - backed by evidence, is that two chromosomes fused in the lineage leading to humans. The genes were always there.



That's a neat trick, considering that the genes had to find a home somewhere, I guess, if mankind truly did come from apes. But if mankind did not come from apes, then the genes are where they should be, where they were originally placed by the designer. And since translocation in this regard is merely a "hypothesis" and not an observation, it requires faith to accept that the these complexities simply move around on their own and find a home without anything special or deleterious happening to the organism. That 100 million-plus pieces of information could just scatter to the winds of the genome, is a specious claim.




The depth of your ignorance on this is staggering.



Try watching this:



Ken Miller on CHromosome 2[/URL]



Or try this - I know this has a bunch of sciency words in it, and will be over your head, but the point is that there is an evidence backed logical explanation that has been around for almost 20 years, yet you are blissfully unaware of it:



Origin of human chromosome 2: an ancestral telomere-telomere fusion



Abstract



We have identified two allelic genomic cosmids from human chromosome 2, c8.1 and c29B, each containing two inverted arrays of the vertebrate telomeric repeat in a head-to-head arrangement, 5'(TTAGGG)n-(CCCTAA)m3'. Sequences flanking this telomeric repeat are characteristic of present-day human pretelomeres. BAL-31 nuclease experiments with yeast artificial chromosome clones of human telomeres and fluorescence in situ hybridization reveal that sequences flanking these inverted repeats hybridize both to band 2q13 and to different, but overlapping, subsets of human chromosome ends. We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.





But for more fun, we can take a look at what happens when a chromosome is actually added back in. Down's Syndrome. Is the organism more viable or not?


Um, that is NOT what happens in Down syndrome. You cannot even get THAT correct. Pathetic. Down syndrome is caused by nondisjunction during meiosis (remember when you claimed DNA replication was perfect? LOL!) producing a zygote with an extra chromosome.





No, you can jump through all the karyotyping hoops you want to - the genetic systems of animals and plants are not in such huge states of flux that they can spontaneous transition from ape to man like this.




And you know this because you are a geneticist?



Your assertions devoid of scientific support - or sense - grow tiresome.



And it has to be a spontaneous transition - because no evidence of this transition exists in the fossil records or the living systems. And to beleive that it ever happened, requires faith.




Right - because evidence is anathemna to the creationist non-scientist.



Here is some more non-observed observations that add support to the fusion of two chromosomes to produce human chromosome 2:



Genomic Structure and Evolution of the Ancestral Chromosome Fusion Site in 2q13–2q14.1 and Paralogous Regions on Other Human Chromosomes

Yuxin Fan[/URL],
Elena Linardopoulou[/URL],
Cynthia Friedman[/URL],
Eleanor Williams[/URL], and
Barbara J. Trask[/URL]1[/URL]
+[/URL] Author Affiliations
Division of Human Biology, Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, Seattle, Washington 98109, USA
Abstract

Human chromosome 2 was formed by the head-to-head fusion of two ancestral chromosomes that remained separate in other primates. Sequences that once resided near the ends of the ancestral chromosomes are now interstitially located in 2q13–2q14.1. Portions of these sequences had duplicated to other locations prior to the fusion. Here we present analyses of the genomic structure and evolutionary history of >600 kb surrounding the fusion site and closely related sequences on other human chromosomes. Sequence blocks that closely flank the inverted arrays of degenerate telomere repeats marking the fusion site are duplicated at many, primarily subtelomeric, locations. In addition, large portions of a 168-kb centromere-proximal block are duplicated at 9pter, 9p11.2, and 9q13, with 98%–99% average sequence identity. A 67-kb block on the distal side of the fusion site is highly homologous to sequences at 22qter. A third ∼100-kb segment is 96% identical to a region in 2q11.2. By integrating data on the extent and similarity of these paralogous blocks, including the presence of phylogenetically informative repetitive elements, with observations of their chromosomal distribution in nonhuman primates, we infer the order of the duplications that led to their current arrangement. Several of these duplicated blocks may be associated with breakpoints of inversions that occurred during primate evolution and of recurrent chromosome rearrangements in humans.





The origin of human chromosome 2 analyzed by comparative chromosome mapping with a DNA microlibrary



Abstract Fluorescencein situ hybridization (FISH) of microlibraries established from distinct chromosome subregions can test the evolutionary conservation of chromosome bands as well as chromosomal rearrangements that occurred during primate evolution and will help to clarify phylogenetic relationships. We used a DNA library established by microdissection and microcloning from the entire long arm of human chromosome 2 for fluorescencein situ hybridization and comparative mapping of the chromosomes of human, great apes (Pan troglodytes, Pan paniscus, Gorilla gorilla, Pongo pygmaeus) and Old World monkeys (Macaca fuscata andCercopithecus aethiops). Inversions were found in the pericentric region of the primate chromosome 2p homologs in great apes, and the hybridization pattern demonstrates the known phylogenetically derived telomere fusion in the line that leads to human chromosome 2. The hybridization of the 2q microlibrary to chromosomes of Old World monkeys gave a different pattern from that in the gorilla and the orang-utan, but a pattern similar to that of chimpanzees. This suggests convergence of chromosomal rearrangements in different phylogenetic lines.



Reconstruction of genomic rearrangements in great apes and gibbons by chromosome painting

Abstract

The homology between hylobatid chromosomes and other primates has long remained elusive. We used chromosomal in situ suppression hybridization of all human chromosome-specific DNA libraries to "paint" the chromosomes of primates and establish homologies between the human, great ape (chimpanzee, gorilla, and orangutan), and gibbon karyotypes (Hylobates lar species group, 2n = 44). The hybridization patterns unequivocally demonstrate the high degree of chromosomal homology and synteny of great ape and human chromosomes. Relative to human, no translocations were detected in great apes, except for the well-known fusion-origin of human chromosome 2 and a 5;17 translocation in the gorilla. In contrast, numerous translocations were detected that have led to the massive reorganization of the gibbon karyotype: the 22 autosomal human chromosomes have been divided into 51 elements to compose the 21 gibbon autosomes. Molecular cytogenetics promises to finally allow hylobatids to be integrated into the overall picture of chromosomal evolution in the primates.





Comparative FISH mapping of the ancestral fusion point of human chromosome 2

Abstract It is known that human chromosome 2 originated from the fusion of two ancestral primate chromosomes. This has been confirmed by chromosome banding and fluorescence in-situ hybridization (FISH) with human chromosome-2-specific DNA libraries. In this study, the order of 38 cosmid clones derived from the human chromosome region 2q12-q14 was exactly determined by high-resolution FISH in human chromosome 2 and its homologous chromosomes in chimpanzees (Pan trogrodydes, 2n=48) and cynomolgus monkeys (Macaca fascicularis, 2n=42). This region includes the telomere-to-telomere fusion point of two ancestral ape-type chromosomes. As a result of comparative mapping, human chromosome region 2q12-q14 was found to correspond to the short arms of chimpanzee chromosomes 12 and 13 and cynomolgus monkey chromosomes 9 and 15. It is noted that no difference was detected in the relative order of the cosmid clones between human and chimpanzee chromosomes. This suggests that two ancestral ape-type chromosomes fused tandemly at telomeres to form human chromosome 2, and the genomic organization of this region is thought to be considerably conserved. In the cynomolgus monkey, however, the order of clones in each homologue was inverted. In addition to cosmid mapping, two chromosome-2-specific yeast artificial chromosome (YAC) clones containing the fusion point were identified by FISH.



Gene Content and Function of the Ancestral Chromosome Fusion Site in Human Chromosome 2q13–2q14.1 and Paralogous Regions

Abstract

Various portions of the region surrounding the site where two ancestral chromosomes fused to form human chromosome 2 are duplicated elsewhere in the human genome, primarily in subtelomeric and pericentromeric locations. At least 24 potentially functional genes and 16 pseudogenes reside in the 614-kb of sequence surrounding the fusion site and paralogous segments on other chromosomes. By comparing the sequences of genomic copies and transcripts, we show that at least 18 of the genes in these paralogous regions are transcriptionally active. Among these genes are new members of the cobalamin synthetase W domain (CBWD) and forkhead domain FOXD4 gene families. Copies of RPL23A and SNRPA1 on chromosome 2 are retrotransposed-processed pseudogenes that were included in segmental duplications; we find 53 RPL23A pseudogenes in the human genome and map the functional copy of SNRPA1 to 15qter. The draft sequence of the human genome also provides new information on the location and intron–exon structure of functional copies of other 2q-fusion genes (PGM5, retina-specific F379, helicaseCHLR1, and acrosin). This study illustrates that the duplication and rearrangement of subtelomeric and pericentromeric regions have functional relevance to human biology; these processes can change gene dosage and/or generate genes with new functions.





Well, you don't get the picture. Douibtless, you will just keep regurgitating the lies that someone else wrote for your moronic 'lectures' as if they have merit.

Now for the real problem: Scientists, because they are biased, look in the wrong place and in the wrong way for the answer.


Does this include creation scientists?

And you know this because of your extensive background in scientific research?



They come up with a hypoethesis under the assumption that apes gave rise to man, but then offer up this lame translocation/dislocation hypothesis as an utterly naive answer to the complexity that is before their very eyes.


So, it is utterly naive to observe patterns in the DNA sequences surrounding the fusion sites because some creationist computer programmer says so?

Please do not project YOUR inability to grasp concepts in genetics onto those who have actually put in the time and effort to actually understand these things.



This, in no uncertain terms, is the kind of denial we expect from people who fear losing money and prestige.



ASnd the sort of denial we get from people who are afraid of losing their religion and the accolades they get from teenagers at theior church when they read off someone else's powerpoints?

You are simply ignorant of the facts.



How much better would the quality of their work be if they actually approached these "dislocated" genes as if they where actually where they originally belonged? Would it change other conclusions?


You are still spweing stupidity.

The genes were not dislocated - that is some YEC lying crap you and your handlers made up to fool teenagers (and apparently yourselves). The genes were always on the chromosomes. It is just that the chromosomes are now fused instead of seperate.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Are you afraid that understanding the things you spew will diminish your plausible deniability?



As it stands, they have to scratch their heads and wonder why all those genes "went to" where they did and why.


No they don't.

We actually know. That you do not is the outcome of being branwashed.


What was the mechanism for their migration? There wasn't one.


There isn't one because there is no need for there to be one.


And now they will spin their scientific wheels looking for answers to questions they should not even be asking.


The answers were found more than 20 years ago.

If people like you would stop arguing issues from the 1860s and actually TRY to learn about and understand what is actually known these days, you might not come across so often like ignorant branwashed zealots.


(Edited by derwood 1/6/2010 at 10:29 AM).


-------
Lester:

"I said I have a doctorate and a university background in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, pathology etc. ..."
 


Posts: 1646 | Posted: 10:13 AM on January 6, 2010 | IP
orion

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Derwood - thanks for sharing.  The guy obviously doesn't have much knowledge on the subject he is debating.  He seems to think that plants and animals are stuck with a given number of chromosomes.  Besides the fusion of chromosomes that Ken Miller points out, is he aware of polyploidy?  Polyploidy is very common in plants, but does occur in some fish, insects, reptiles, and amphibians - from wiki.

This is a good example of why more scientists, and informed lay-people, need to get into the debate - to set things straight, and fight the ignorance and downright lying/idoicy of Creationists.

Keep up the good work. Derwood.  We need more people like you on board.
 


Posts: 1460 | Posted: 11:49 AM on January 6, 2010 | IP
derwood

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Hi Lightwave!



Pretty funny - the clown I referred to in this thread apparently ran across it and now has his panties all in a bunch because I posted his stupid claims here to ridicule him.

This came up while I was in the process of yet again url-http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?19671-Conception-Cycle-Per-Evos] demonstrating his stupidity and dishonesty[/url] on another forum.

Saddest part is, the guy claims to give 'Evolution Deprogramming lectures' and that he has invited PhDs who disagree with him to come and they never have anything to correct ....

But, he is in Texas, and you know what they say - there's nothing funnier than a Texas school book!


-------
Lester:

"I said I have a doctorate and a university background in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, pathology etc. ..."
 


Posts: 1646 | Posted: 5:58 PM on July 27, 2010 | IP
JimIrvine

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LMAO, lightwave is an absolute loonball. I actually seek out his posts over on CARM because they are so out there. The incredible thing is that he's not as bad as some of them (SuperSport for example) Lester seems positively normal compared to some of the CARM muppets.


-------
Lester in logical fallacies
That’s IN MY HEAD –you know, kind of like a pneumonic helps people to remember;,

Lester in Naturalism
the reality is that medical doctors have no training in evolution

Lester in 'Scientists Assert:
Ancestors assumes evolution.
 


Posts: 320 | Posted: 02:07 AM on July 28, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Well, let's not forget about aPassionatePlayer and his atom-sized giraffe in the Big Bang.


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 02:08 AM on July 28, 2010 | IP
JimIrvine

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Cheers Wisp, just about spilled my esspresso all over my keyboard. :D


-------
Lester in logical fallacies
That’s IN MY HEAD –you know, kind of like a pneumonic helps people to remember;,

Lester in Naturalism
the reality is that medical doctors have no training in evolution

Lester in 'Scientists Assert:
Ancestors assumes evolution.
 


Posts: 320 | Posted: 04:56 AM on July 28, 2010 | IP
    
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