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True, However before I except something it must ALL make sense to me not just part of it.


In part, I can agree with you, but I accept the mathematical concepts in Calculus even though I have never taken the class and learned about them.


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Posts: 729 | Posted: 6:34 PM on January 10, 2007 | IP
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Interesting, but that is just a personality difference.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 6:40 PM on January 10, 2007 | IP
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I am not saying that evolution concerns the emergence of life, however since most modern scientist agree that earth has not always existed, than you must explain how life originated. No life no evolution.

Then, by the same logic, you must explain the origin of matter in order for chemistry to be valid.  No matter no chemistry.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 01:59 AM on January 11, 2007 | IP
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Exactly, the big bang does not explain that.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 4:03 PM on January 11, 2007 | IP
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Exactly, the big bang does not explain
that.


Way to dodge the point, is chemistry invalid because we don't know the origin of matter?
Same with evolution, just because we don't know the exact origin of life doesn't invalidate the evidence that life evolves.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 8:38 PM on January 11, 2007 | IP
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I believe I see what you are saying. You are simply arguing that it is possible for a species to evolve, and nothing more.

Studying evolution is more like studying biology, you know that there is life because you can see it. (Though one could argue that there is no such thing as life) You know that their is matter because we can see it, we can only guess at how an atom works.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 9:14 PM on January 11, 2007 | IP
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I believe I see what you are saying. You are simply arguing that it is possible for a species to evolve, and nothing more.

What I'm saying is it doesn't matter that we don't know exactly how life arose, we can still see that after life arose, it evolved.  Just as we don't know how matter originated, we can still see how that matter interacts, chemistry is still valid.  

Studying evolution is more like studying biology,

Well, evolution is the most important concept in biology, without it biology doesn't make sense.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 9:35 PM on January 11, 2007 | IP
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Unless you believe that every thing was created. I have found my self comparing the world to a terrarium.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 10:27 PM on January 11, 2007 | IP
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Unless you believe that every thing was created. I have found my self comparing the world to a terrarium.

Except there's no evidence to support everything being created.  
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 11:47 PM on January 11, 2007 | IP
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He's got you there.  Nothing was created.  Wait.  Nevermind.


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Posts: 1287 | Posted: 01:18 AM on January 12, 2007 | IP
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Right, however it make sense that any thing that is complex would be created. By complex I mean that there is some form of order, and that the components are capable of preforming a task.

I cannot however stress the lack of proof for the last statement. So according to my own criteria evolution is no more likely, and even has more of a chance than my belief in the evidence role. I believe that a merger of the two sides would be most accurate. Take the parts that make the most sense from each.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 4:10 PM on January 12, 2007 | IP
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Right, however it make sense that any thing that is complex would be created. By complex I mean that there is some form of order, and that the components are capable of preforming a task.

Why?  Evolution is unintelligent design and this is what life looks like.  It is not perfectly designed, it isn't even intelligently designed.

Take the parts that make the most sense from each.

Science doesn't deal with what makes the most sense, it deals with what is and isn't supported by the evidence.  Intelligent design is not supported by the evidence, the theory of evolution is.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 9:14 PM on January 12, 2007 | IP
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A car is a form of unintelligent design, if they were designed with intelligence they would never breakdown.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 10:06 PM on January 12, 2007 | IP
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A car is a form of unintelligent design, if they were designed with intelligence they would never breakdown.

Attempt at humor or is there a point?
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 11:53 PM on January 12, 2007 | IP
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The point is that a car is designed, it is much simpler than life, it breaks down. Life breaks down, and is very complex. The one thing that both life an a car have is that they both break down. Now if a simple car take the best minds to make work, than if I were to use the reasoning of evolution, than what we need to do to make better cars is to use the dumbest people that we can find.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 5:38 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
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Your point is meaningless because cars don't reproduce.  Life breaks down but it continues on, it reproduces.  And when it reproduces, it reproduces imperfectly, it doesn't make exact copies.  Now, since the offspring are not exact copies of the parent, some will be slightly better suited for their environment and some won't be.  Those that are better suited will tend to live longer and produce more offspring that have those characteristics that make them more successful.  That's what evolution is all about, differential reproductive success.
As I said your point is ridiculous and has no bearing on the theory of evolution.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 8:19 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
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Quote from Demon38 at 8:19 PM on January 13, 2007 :
Your point is meaningless because cars don't reproduce.  Life breaks down but it continues on, it reproduces.  And when it reproduces, it reproduces imperfectly, it doesn't make exact copies.  Now, since the offspring are not exact copies of the parent, some will be slightly better suited for their environment and some won't be.  Those that are better suited will tend to live longer and produce more offspring that have those characteristics that make them more successful.  That's what evolution is all about, differential reproductive success.
As I said your point is ridiculous and has no bearing on the theory of evolution.



The fact the living organisms can self regenerat their population is more evidence for what I'm saying. If what you say is true than what we sould do is randomly mutate cars to make it so that they can reproduce.

The more complex our technology the more we have to learn (Become more intelligent) to make it better. But that would be the opposite of evolution, the dumber you are, how much dumber do you get than not knowing any thing, the better the results, a bacteria is more efficient information transfer and storage device than the best computers.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 9:23 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
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The fact the living organisms can self regenerat their population is more evidence for what I'm saying.

No it's not.  It shows how natural processes can account for non random, unintelligent design.

If what you say is true than what we sould do is randomly mutate cars to make it so that they can reproduce.

How and why would we do that?

The more complex our technology the more we have to learn (Become more intelligent) to make it better. But that would be the opposite of evolution, the dumber you are, how much dumber do you get than not knowing any thing, the better the results, a bacteria is more efficient information transfer and storage device than the best computers.

Evolution isn't dumb, there's no intelligence involved at all.  Don't you understand how natural selection works?    Can't you see how there is no need for any intelligence?  Mutations are caused by chemical reactions, chemical reactions just happen, no intelligence is required.  You still don't understand the theory of evolution.

a bacteria is more efficient information transfer and storage device than the best computers.

How is a bacteria more efficient at information storgage than the best computers?

 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 11:34 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
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"How and why would we do that?"

Because evolution has done so well with random changes, why wouldn't it work with computers?


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 11:38 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
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Because evolution has done so well with random changes, why wouldn't it work with computers?

Evolution isn't random.

And there are computer simulations that are modelled on the theory of evolution called
genetic algorithms that are very interesting and becoming more and more important, if the theory of evolution was invalid, they wouldn't work.
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 11:53 PM on January 13, 2007 | IP
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Any thing that was not designed is random.

(Edited by SilverStar 1/14/2007 at 11:10 AM).


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 11:10 AM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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Any thing that was not designed is random.


No no no no no no no no...

Random simply means it cannot be predicted. You're in chemistry, right? Is the product of a chemical reaction between Sulfur and Iron random? No.




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http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
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Posts: 729 | Posted: 11:31 AM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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How ever the random part would be if you were to add different amounts of each at random.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 12:38 PM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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How ever the random part would be if you were to add different amounts of each at random.


That's random only if you don't bother to measure it.

Natural Selection is not random.


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http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 3:32 PM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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Is it measured?


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 7:15 PM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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Is it measured?


You can't measure Natural Selection, but you don't need to in order to predict what will happen. You need to measure the amount of Iron and Sulfur you're mixing together in order to figure out how much of their product you're going to make, however.

You don't measure Natural Selection. It's a simple statement of "X will survive; Y will not."


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http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 9:25 PM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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How would you determine if Y will not survive, and that X will not?


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 9:46 PM on January 14, 2007 | IP
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How would you determine if Y will not survive, and that X will not?


Logic. Consider a desert. If you put a populations of giraffes in the desert, they would not be selected for. They eat leaves off of trees, and since the desert has no trees, they would go extinct. There is nothing random about that.


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http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 04:03 AM on January 15, 2007 | IP
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That is not taking into consideration that some other organism will come in and help them. Also many desserts have some form of plant life, cacti in America for example. They could just adapt to eat cacti.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 11:11 AM on January 15, 2007 | IP
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That is not taking into consideration that some other organism will come in and help them. Also many desserts have some form of plant life, cacti in America for example. They could just adapt to eat cacti.


Giraffes do not have the ability to eat cacti. They needles would destroy their mouths. In addition, giraffes would fail in an environment without water.

Regardless, however, you're points on the analogy are worthless because there are others, such as:

Polar bears can survive in the arctic better than desert rattle snakes. Natural Selection would choose polar bears over rattle snakes.




-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 10:46 PM on January 15, 2007 | IP
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Any thing that was not designed is
random.


Totally untrue.  Natural Selecttion!  Nature is unintelligently selecting the organisms that can survive best in an environment.  Do you know what differential reproductive success means?
 


Posts: 1664 | Posted: 12:54 AM on January 16, 2007 | IP
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How ever that would not take into account of luck. one mouse may live because the cat chasing it tired too quickly, but another faster mouse may die because the cat chasing it was a little faster.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 4:32 PM on January 30, 2007 | IP
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How ever that would not take into account of luck. one mouse may live because the cat chasing it tired too quickly, but another faster mouse may die because the cat chasing it was a little faster.


That plays into individual scenarios, sure... but when you roll the dice millions of times, the results become quite clear.


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http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 7:20 PM on January 30, 2007 | IP
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Luck is a funny thing. It is unpredictable, even after millions of tries.


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Posts: 681 | Posted: 08:42 AM on February 7, 2007 | IP
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Luck is a funny thing. It is unpredictable, even after millions of tries.


Again, perhaps on an individual basis, but statistics are meant to be measured as a sum.

Flip a coin 500 times, and the number of times it lands on heads will be relatively close to the number of times it lands on tails.


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http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 8:24 PM on February 7, 2007 | IP
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Natural Selection is not random. It follows the the needs of the organism set by enviroment.
As the earth changes mutations start to occur. Some are good... some are bad. The bad mutations start die off while good mutations start to create advantages that the organism uses to adapt to it's surrounding. Chernobl is a good example of forces evolution. After the nuclear event life around the reactor was killed off. However only five years later they found field mice had adapted to the high radiation levels the should and would sterilize and kill most life. But there they were living and breeding. This makes a good example since evolution takes time and many generations... but with the mice's short lifespan and potant breeding habits evolution errupted quickly. This also promote the reason why small mammals survived the meteor collision that killed off the dinosaurs. The events can be considered random... the mutation and evolution simply followed as needed.


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Posts: 40 | Posted: 6:49 PM on March 18, 2007 | IP
    
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