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     The Chihuahua and the Mastiff
       It was there at the beginning (as Lester will show).

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wisp

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Lester
It was there in the beginning. The Chihuahua and the mastiff exist at the shallow ends of the dog gene pool as selection has thinned it out. There is insufficient genetic variation remaining in a Chihuahua to produce a mastiff and vica versa. They are heading for extinction, not evolution.
Show us your evidence, Lester.

Or your reasoning.

Or something.

Thanks in advance.

By thanking Lester in advance now he can't escape, and he will have to show us the evidence he surely has but hasn't been willing to share with us so far. Foolproof!



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 5:48 PM on January 20, 2010 | IP
Lester10

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Show us your evidence, Lester.

Or your reasoning.

Or something.


Ok Wisp, here goes.

When you select for some feature that already exists eg. long hair, you weed out something else that already exists eg. Short hair. You want short legs. You select away the genes for long legs. You take your two short legged, long haired dogs and you breed with them, further weeding out the variations you don’t want.

Meantime, mutations build up inexorably in the genome and since the varieties selected for are being interbred, you improve your chances of breeding out disaster in the genome. Mutations build up paired with fewer alleles to select from and extinction will be the result. The only saving grace of your specially bred pets is that they are pampered and petted and cared for in a protected environment.
In the wild, they’re toast, as they have very limited genetic variability to draw from.

The same goes for inbreeding of humans. Very occasionally you might get a positive feature but mostly you’ll get a high degree of genetic mutation in the population along with an obvious decreased ability to survive.

This is what happens in a practical world untainted by evolutionary imagination.  



-------
Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 10:53 AM on January 24, 2010 | IP
derwood

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Quote from Lester10 at 10:53 AM on January 24, 2010 :

The same goes for inbreeding of humans. Very occasionally you might get a positive feature but mostly you’ll get a high degree of genetic mutation in the population along with an obvious decreased ability to survive.

This is what happens in a practical world untainted by evolutionary imagination.  





So please uncle Lester, tell us the story of how 4 breeding pairs of humans inbred with each other to produce the 6 billion folks alive today in only 4,500 years without suffering the mutation problem you just declared exists.

Please tell us Doc!





-------
Lester:

"I said I have a doctorate and a university background in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, pathology etc. ..."
 


Posts: 1646 | Posted: 12:30 PM on January 24, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Ok Wisp, here goes.

When you select for some feature that already exists eg. long hair, you weed out something else that already exists eg. Short hair.
So, no matter what amazing new combination of traits you see, you can always say that they were already there, or that something was lost.

Now you need to tell us why you think that's a problem for the Theory of Evolution.

There is no new possible combination of nucleotides that doesn't contain something already tried before.

Just like with music.

You could say no new music really exists. It's just combination of old things.

It didn't evolve.

Goddidit.

Nothing new. Just tinkering with the old, which doesn't add new features.

Music contains information.

There is no new information.

You can just keep redefining reality to accommodate to your spiritual needs.

You want short legs. You select away the genes for long legs. You take your two short legged, long haired dogs and you breed with them, further weeding out the variations you don’t want.
Just like when creating a new piece of music.

You could say you're just weeding out the variations you don't want.

Meantime, mutations build up inexorably in the genome
So do viral insertions.

For some reason you choose to believe that they are functional.

What's so special about them? I don't know... How does that help your position?

Because you don't believe so specific weird stuff if it doesn't somehow support your position (or you think it does).

Believing viral insertions are always useful is quite weird. So i'm sure someone told you such notion supported creationism somehow.

I wonder how.

and since the varieties selected for are being interbred, you improve your chances of breeding out disaster in the genome.
So you say. But you don't know what you're talking about.

You don't know the effects of interbreeding.

And it's not even hard to google. But you just leave the investigation aside. The claims go first.

With my limited knowledge, i would guess that you can't have any traits fixed without interbreeding.

That's specially true about genetic traits that require homozygocity.

Not even the most amazing superpower wouldn spread if the carriers of the next generations never mate.

Mutations build up paired with fewer alleles to select from and extinction will be the result.
I've asked you this lots of times.

How is it that the ark thing wasn't disastrous for those poor species kinds?

The only saving grace of your specially bred pets is that they are pampered and petted and cared for in a protected environment.
That's quite silly.

You can say the same thing about any animal in any environment. They are pampered and petted and cared for in a protected environment which Yahweh created, with the amazing features Yahweh gave them.

Pets die too, you know?

And not all of them reproduce (which is kinda what matters).

On the other hand i can tell you that the selective forces acting upon dogs are very extreme, even if they're pets.

When it comes to stray dogs, they are under strong selective pressures as well.

Being careful with the cars, for instance.
Hereditary mental traits that make them fear cars in movement will be selected for, and spread.

I've seen them adopt several strategies.

The ones that beg for food can go in packs too. Their leader is no longer the strongest dog, but the most intelligent one.

I've seen stronger leaders in packs that hunt.

None of them attack humans. It's not an evolutionarily stable strategy (they would get killed).

In the wild, they’re toast, as they have very limited genetic variability to draw from.
Are you saying that dingos are impossible?

Nice!


The same goes for inbreeding of humans. Very occasionally you might get a positive feature but mostly you’ll get a high degree of genetic mutation in the population along with an obvious decreased ability to survive.
Would you say that about all human races?

Because i don't think it's possible to have races without interbreeding.

This is what happens in a practical world untainted by evolutionary imagination.
The few times you talk about facts, you fail.

Dingos exist.

Look:


Does it look toasted to you?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 01:50 AM on January 25, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Moscow's Stray Dogs Evolving Greater Intelligence, Including a Mastery of the Subway


Waiting for the 8:10 To Tverskaya

For every 300 Muscovites, there's a stray dog wandering the streets of Russia's capital. And according to Andrei Poyarkov, a researcher at the A.N. Severtsov Institute of Ecology and Evolution, the fierce pressure of urban living has driven the dogs to evolve wolf-like traits, increased intelligence, and even the ability to navigate the subway.

Poyarkov has studied the dogs, which number about 35,000, for the last 30 years. Over that time, he observed the stray dog population lose the spotted coats, wagging tails, and friendliness that separate dogs from wolves, while at the same time evolving social structures and behaviors optimized to four ecological niches occupied by what Poyarkov calls guard dogs, scavengers, wild dogs, and beggars.

The guard dogs follow around, and receive food from, the security personnel at Moscow's many fenced in sites. They think the guards are their masters, and serve as semi-feral assistants. The scavengers roam the city eating garbage. The wild dogs are the most wolf-like, hunting mice, rats, and cats under the cover of night.

But beggar dogs have evolved the most specialized behavior. Relying on scraps of food from commuters, the beggar dogs can not only recognize which humans are most likely to give them something to eat, but have evolved to ride the subway. Using scents, and the ability to recognize the train conductor's names for different stops, they incorporate many stations into their territories.


I've seen this in trains, not in subways.

We have subways in Buenos Aires, but they are too packed for dogs to feel comfortable. Haha!

Additionally, Poyarkov says the pack structure of the beggars reflects a reliance on brain over brawn for survival. In the beggar packs, the smartest dog, not the most physically dominant, occupies the alpha male position.

AMAZING!! THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT!!

Haha, well, perhaps it's not THAT amazing that some people care about facts more than words.
Facts don't contradict themselves. They are hard to bend or twist.


The evolution of Moscow's stray dogs has been going on since at least the mid-1800s, when Russian writers first mentioned the stray dog problem in the city. And that evolution has been propelled by deadly selective pressure. Most of the strays arrive on the streets as rejected house pets. Of those dogs kicked out of their homes, Poyarkov estimates fewer than 3 percent live long enough to breed. To survive those odds, a dog really does have to be the fittest.

No matter what the rates of survival/reproduction are, if a population doesn't decrease in number you can't call it a failure.

But 3% seems a little bit too low... It sounds hard to keep a population of dogs if only 3% of them live long enough to reproduce...

This isn't true about other species, some of whose individuals can lay thousands of eggs and very few survive.

In those species you can't have parental care. Not worth the try.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 02:14 AM on January 25, 2010 | IP
Lester10

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So please uncle Lester, tell us the story of how 4 breeding pairs of humans inbred with each other to produce the 6 billion folks alive today in only 4,500 years without suffering the mutation problem you just declared exists.

Please tell us Doc!


Well it’s real easy Der, but you might have to think carefully here.

You see, we have different worldviews.

You believe everything had to have a naturalistic origin -that’s called philosophy. I believe that the genome is intelligently coded for by an intelligent source. That’s my philosophy. I believe that my philosophy better fits the evidence and that yours vaguely  fits the evidence but only if you’re very suggestible and, of course, determined to believe it..

We (creationists) say that the genome was at first (at creation) perfect. It began to mutate and run down and luckily not too much time has passed. We would already be extinct at the current rate of mutation if millions of years had passed.

So, in our understanding, a mutation is a disaster for the genome. That is borne out by the increasing number of genetic abnormalities present in the human population. It is also verified by the fact that none of you ‘believers’ are prepared to subject yourselves to increased doses of mutagenic chemicals and radiation in an attempt to evolve into a superhuman or an  alien or something more advanced like that.

As mutations pick up in the population, it becomes increasingly unwise to sleep with your cousin or your sister just in case you become homozygous for a fatal error which of course would be more likely as time and closeness of relationship increases.

Luckily I have a God who warned us about that and said ‘don’t please marry your cousins any more.’ (They could do that in the beginning when the genome was perfect and new)’ As with all his other wise instruction, he didn’t give a lecture on genomic mutation, he just expected us to listen in order to live a better, healthier life while in this mortal body. All His instructions are like that –he doesn’t bother to explain in ‘scientific’ terminology because not everyone will understand. Thus God’s book of instruction works just as well for the mentally challenged as it does for the clever people. Long before a microscope was invented or penicillin was formulated or the clotting cascade was worked out, instructions were given to humanity according to how the creator made things work. The instructions are to help, not to hinder.

The problem with you Der, is that you imagine that your intelligence worked itself out and that human rationality was just a byproduct of random mutation and natural selection. It didn’t occur to you that your mind was created by a very much more intelligent mind that came before you. Your loss. It really makes so much more sense.





-------
Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 11:14 AM on January 27, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Lester, i'm sure some "kinds" (whatever you mean by that word, which is anyone's guess) normally have more than the allowed maximum of FOUR alleles for some loci.

So either i'm wrong about that, or new alleles evolve, or the ark is a lie.

What's your bet? That it's my mistake?

By the way, did you or did you not imply that dingos are impossible when you said:
The only saving grace of your specially bred pets is that they are pampered and petted and cared for in a protected environment. In the wild, they’re toast, as they have very limited genetic variability to draw from.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 6:07 PM on February 1, 2010 | IP
derwood

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Quote from Lester10 at 11:14 AM on January 27, 2010 :
So please uncle Lester, tell us the story of how 4 breeding pairs of humans inbred with each other to produce the 6 billion folks alive today in only 4,500 years without suffering the mutation problem you just declared exists.

Please tell us Doc!


Well it’s real easy Der, but you might have to think carefully here.

You see, we have different worldviews.



A worldview will have no effect whatsoever on the propogation, segregation, extinction, or generation of mutant alleles.

Worldview has no impact whatsoever on population genetics.

Answer the question re: the expansion of human population and variation WITHOUT inbreeding depression from 4 breeding pairs to 6 billion in no more than 4,500 years.

If you think that dodging the issue with some missive about 'worldviews' then the real answer is that you have no real answer and want to hide behind magic and myths and think that you should get a free pass because it is a 'worldview' thing.

No, it isn't.  It is a real life thing.  Deal with it.


We (creationists) say that the genome was at first (at creation) perfect.

Sure, you say that.  Do you have any EVIDENCE for this?  Any FACTS that, when viewed objectively, will support this claim?

It began to mutate and run down and luckily not too much time has passed. We would already be extinct at the current rate of mutation if millions of years had passed.

Why would that be so?  How was this calculated?  What were the assumptions?

So, in our understanding, a mutation is a disaster for the genome.


Hold it - you said you BELIEVE this, now you are saying that it is your UNDERSTANDING?

You say that a mutation is a disaster, yet I have shown you one that was clearly a benefit - remember the p450 allele paper?  The one that you tried to blow off by declaring that it REALLY resulted in a loss of fitness, and then when I produced a couple of papers indicating that it did not, you stiopped responding?

Remember that?

I do.

That is borne out by the increasing number of genetic abnormalities present in the human population.

Please present documentation that this is increasing and that the increase is due solely to 'new' mutations and not because those born with abnormalities are living longer now than they used to.

It is also verified by the fact that none of you ‘believers’ are prepared to subject yourselves to increased doses of mutagenic chemicals and radiation in an attempt to evolve into a superhuman or an  alien or something more advanced like that.


I do enjoy watching you demonstrate time and again your ignorance.  I am tempted to say stupidity, as ignorance can be corrected, but you are beyond correction.  

There isa very good reason that we will not do this - we know that an individual does not evolve.

What I am curious about is why you people - you who believe that the afterlife witll be wonderful, and you will be able to walk hand in hand with Jebus down streets lined with gold in heaven - allow yourselves to suffer here in this profane and mundane place...

As mutations pick up in the population, it becomes increasingly unwise to sleep with your cousin or your sister just in case you become homozygous for a fatal error which of course would be more likely as time and closeness of relationship increases.

Apparently, you are unaware that sexual recombination has been shown to purge excess detrimental mutations while hastening the selection of beneficial ones - odd, since I presented that information here, as well, most recently just a couple of weeks ago.  Cretos don't like to read anything that is not churned out by other cretos, which is why they so often come across as uneducated rubes.

Luckily I have a God who warned us about that and said ‘don’t please marry your cousins any more.’ (They could do that in the beginning when the genome was perfect and new)’

Well, isn't that convenient.
Any bible verse attesting to this purity of the 'new' genomes?  Or is this all extrabiblical extrapolation premised on doctrine?

As with all his other wise instruction,


Like burning foreskins as a burnt offering?

he didn’t give a lecture on genomic mutation, he just expected us to listen in order to live a better, healthier life while in this mortal body.


Right.. A real MASTER figure, eh, to all his little slaves?

All His instructions are like that –he doesn’t bother to explain in ‘scientific’ terminology because not everyone will understand.

Right.. Easier to keep the ignorant happy by just telling then what to do and warnign them of severe punishment when they do bad.  What a loving god!

Thus God’s book of instruction works just as well for the mentally challenged as it does for the clever people. Long before a microscope was invented or penicillin was formulated or the clotting cascade was worked out, instructions were given to humanity according to how the creator made things work. The instructions are to help, not to hinder.

Wow, so wonderful and fanciful. Are there sugarplum fairies in this version, too?


The problem with you Der, is that you imagine that your intelligence worked itself out and that human rationality was just a byproduct of random mutation and natural selection.

I do not need to imagine this, for the evidence indicates that this happened.  I cannot begin to explain each and every step (and to demand this is yet another example of sheer stupidity) that led to this, but the evidence is there and undeniable.  People like you with your overbearing mean slave-master deity demand that we provide intricate detail for everything lest you will rejkect it (like you would not reject it anyway), then when asked for some explanation for YOUR preferred positon, we get fairy stories and just-so morality tales devoid of ANY corroborating evidence whatsoever.

That is religion.
It didn’t occur to you that your mind was created by a very much more intelligent mind that came before you.

Sure, it has occurred to me, but when I see 'locked in' errors of anatomy, physiology,and genetics, I find that the evidence indicating natural causes to be much more intelelctually satisfying than ancient tall tlaes written by misogynistic, xenophobic, pagan men.

When I see that the 'mind' is wired 'backwards' and sideways, with the left side of the brain controlling the left side of the body, the optic nerves delivering their impulses to the back of the brain, etc., I see evolution, not a plan.


Your loss. It really makes so much more sense.

Sure does - it is much much simpler to posit an ethereal father figure who sets things right and gives you rules and made you and all that.  In fact, it is so simplistic that we should not be surprised to see that nearly all ancient, pretechnological societies 'knew' about magical sy men and women or creatures who made them, gave them rules, helped them in war (sometimes), etc.  It is what people do when they have no other explanations for things that they cannot understand.

But because somethign just seems 'right', because it is simple, does not mean it is true.



Also wondering when you will explain why a new 'body part' requires a new protein, as you have claimed .

(Edited by derwood 2/2/2010 at 09:30 AM).


-------
Lester:

"I said I have a doctorate and a university background in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, pathology etc. ..."
 


Posts: 1646 | Posted: 08:47 AM on February 2, 2010 | IP
wisp

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derwood
What I am curious about is why you people - you who believe that the afterlife witll be wonderful, and you will be able to walk hand in hand with Jebus down streets lined with gold in heaven - allow yourselves to suffer here in this profane and mundane place...


They are so very lucky that Evolution has carved in their brains the instinct to disregard their own flawed arguments when it comes to real life.

Actually, no. It wasn't luck at all. Real radical believers are dead.

They could just go and help people in dangerous situations until they died. Heavens would be waiting for them. But naaaah... The Bible must surely speak against it somewhere. Right?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 10:22 AM on February 2, 2010 | IP
    
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