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firechild

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According to this article  "if food was scarce, it may have been better to sacrifice intelligence to use less energy". This could be a possible explanation for why creationists don't understand the concepts of the ToE?


(Edited by firechild 1/31/2010 at 9:53 PM).
 


Posts: 86 | Posted: 9:49 PM on January 31, 2010 | IP
Apoapsis

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I've had the pleasure of meeting three avowed creationists in real life.  One OEC professor, and a married YEC couple.

None of them looked malnourished. ;-)


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 10:28 PM on January 31, 2010 | IP
JimIrvine

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None of them looked malnourished.
No, but their cupboards were bare :D


-------
Lester in logical fallacies
That’s IN MY HEAD –you know, kind of like a pneumonic helps people to remember;,

Lester in Naturalism
the reality is that medical doctors have no training in evolution

Lester in 'Scientists Assert:
Ancestors assumes evolution.
 


Posts: 320 | Posted: 01:20 AM on February 1, 2010 | IP
Lester10

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Oh how I loved the wondrous myths and legends of evolution. My father used to feed us on them as children - he's a biologist and clearly believed them all. We sucked them in whole and believed them too.

Questioning the myths and legends of evolution used to make him angry but lately he's starting to ask some interesting questions.
I think the penny is starting to drop.


-------
Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 05:42 AM on February 1, 2010 | IP
JimIrvine

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Sorry Lester. Don't believe a word of what you say.


-------
Lester in logical fallacies
That’s IN MY HEAD –you know, kind of like a pneumonic helps people to remember;,

Lester in Naturalism
the reality is that medical doctors have no training in evolution

Lester in 'Scientists Assert:
Ancestors assumes evolution.
 


Posts: 320 | Posted: 05:52 AM on February 1, 2010 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from JimIrvine at 05:52 AM on February 1, 2010 :
Sorry Lester. Don't believe a word of what you say.



He's just trying to divert attention from his lack of any backup to his bluster.

Just another example of why fundamentalism is not Christianity.

James 3:
17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy. 18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace for those who make peace.


-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 07:20 AM on February 1, 2010 | IP
Lester10

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JimIrvine
Sorry Lester. Don't believe a word of what you say.


No,don’t be sorry JimIrvine; I’m sorry that you have deceived yourself once again.

Just another example of why fundamentalism is not Christianity.


Fundamentalists of the Christian variety are Bible believers –they take the Word of God over the Word of men.

The rest of Christianity is a very confused group because they allow men to bend the Bible to say whatever they would like it to say. For them peer pressure or the desire to make the Bible fit what they'd prefer to believe is more important than truth.

Then there are fundamentalist Muslims. The ones who take the Koran literally want to chop your heads off.

The apostate muslims think you should live –because they, like the Christian unbeliever, do not apparently take their sacred text seriously.

So one needs to describe one’s fundamantalism carefully to make any sense of it.




James 3:
17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy. 18
And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace for those who make peace.


And you were hoping I would peacably, gently, yield to your evolutionary deceptions? Cute Apoapsis, very cute.



-------
Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 09:14 AM on February 1, 2010 | IP
derwood

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Quote from Lester10 at 09:14 AM on February 1, 2010 :
Fundamentalists of the Christian variety are Bible believers –they take the Word of God over the Word of men.


No you don't - you take the bible at face value.  A book written by - wait for it - MEN.

Superstitious, pretechnological men, steeped in the culture and myths of their time.

And you buy it hook line and sinker.


-------
Lester:

"I said I have a doctorate and a university background in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, pathology etc. ..."
 


Posts: 1646 | Posted: 12:13 PM on February 1, 2010 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from Lester10 at 09:14 AM on February 1, 2010 :
Fundamentalists of the Christian variety are Bible believers –they take the Word of God over the Word of men.


Of course. Although, sometimes it is hard to tell if those fundies are worshiping God, or the Bible, in which they confuse doctrine with deity. I think there's something against that in the Bible somewhere.

The rest of Christianity is a very confused group because they allow men to bend the Bible to say whatever they would like it to say. For them peer pressure or the desire to make the Bible fit what they'd prefer to believe is more important than truth.


Either that, or they are not blinded by a narrow dogma developed in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Then there are fundamentalist Muslims. The ones who take the Koran literally want to chop your heads off.


I've met many Muslims, some of which proclaim that the Qur'an is the literal words of God. Yet none of them have tried to kill me, a non-Muslim, I wonder why.

The apostate muslims think you should live –because they, like the Christian unbeliever, do not apparently take their sacred text seriously.


Or they do take their text seriously, and just understand it in a little different way than fundamentalists do, which is probably a good thing, for all of us.


-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 551 | Posted: 12:14 PM on February 1, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Well yeah. Smartness takes energy. But the equation doesn't seem to be that simple (to me at least).

If there's plenty of food there's no reason to develop smartness. If food is scarce there is no convenience.

It's a delicate balance.

Perhaps smartness could evolve, partially, as a product of sexual selection (not just need). But you need a certain previous level of smartness for smartness to be recognized.

When i play swimbots worms evolve pretty often. They are not smart swimmers (they don't really go wherever they want), but they can travel great distances economizing energy.

They are boring so i kill them, thus becoming a selective pressure.

To them i'm an environmental lethal mouse pointer.

In order to avoid worms (or other boring creatures) i tweak the ecology (i make food more energetic), and i change the selection criteria (i make vigorous swimbots more attractive).



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 4:41 PM on February 1, 2010 | IP
wisp

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I had actually thought it was a common assumption that some primate brains had shrunk (my knowledge is more theoretical than empirical).

It was a prediction of my model.

But simple food scarcity doesn't do the trick. Scarcity per se could have the opposite effect, favoring smarter creatures with better brains to look for new food sources.

It takes:
1) A food shortage;
2) A lack of alternative sources;
3) Little or no sexual selection that favors smartness (the easiest requirement, as creationists demonstrate).

Under those circumstances it looks pretty safe to me to predict that brains will shrink.

“It was assumed that brain sizes generally get bigger through primate evolution,” said Nick Mundy, a Cambridge University evolutionary geneticist and lead author of the study.
"Generally" being the operative word.
While that may be true for most primates,
(which is exactly what the previous phrase meant)
“we find very strong evidence in several lineages that brain sizes actually have gotten smaller.”
Does this surprise anyone?

It's not rhetorical. =D

Though its not clear why smaller brains would be advantageous to some species, the brain’s voracious energy consumption may have played a role, Mundy speculated.
Well d'oh!

Hahahaha!

If it wasn't because of energy consumption how could brains shrink?

It would be incredibly difficult and weird.

If food was scarce, it may have been better to sacrifice intelligence to use less energy.
Yeah, and it may also have been better to increase intelligence to outcompete rivals and to get better at finding food.

A very insufficient explanation.

“We’ve just applied the reduction in brain size that we see across the rest of the primate phylogeny to the case of the Flores man,” he said. “Under reasonable assumptions,  it does look plausible that this brain-size massive reduction could have occurred.”
I'd like to know more about these "reasonable assumptions" (i'd like to know if they include mine).



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 5:37 PM on February 1, 2010 | IP
Apoapsis

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Quote from Lester10 at 09:14 AM on February 1, 2010 :



James 3:
17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy. 18
And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace for those who make peace.


And you were hoping I would peacably, gently, yield to your evolutionary deceptions? Cute Apoapsis, very cute.



Indeed, this is a verse your selective bible worship allows you to ignore.



-------
Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1747 | Posted: 8:40 PM on February 1, 2010 | IP
derwood

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Quote from Apoapsis at 8:40 PM on February 1, 2010 :
Quote from Lester10 at 09:14 AM on February 1, 2010 :



James 3:
17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy. 18
And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace for those who make peace.


And you were hoping I would peacably, gently, yield to your evolutionary deceptions? Cute Apoapsis, very cute.



Indeed, this is a verse your selective bible worship allows you to ignore.




It is amazing to see which verses bibliophiles ignore and which they choose to emphasize.

The fact that those advocating socialistic policies as well as those advocating tyrannical capitalism can both find verses that support their cause tells me that the authors of the bible were jsut seeking to justify their own positions.




-------
Lester:

"I said I have a doctorate and a university background in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, pathology etc. ..."
 


Posts: 1646 | Posted: 09:34 AM on February 2, 2010 | IP
    
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