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first off i want to say that im a CHRISTian and im very much a creationist.  i think the theory of evolution is stupid and has no real backbone.  but im not going to go there right now because i just want to say something to the other "Christians" out there.

ive been reading posts on here and it seems that people keep sayin that most Christians are evolutionists and i just want to see if that is true.  if there are any Christians that read this and believe creation is wrong im calling youf flat out a hypocrite.  if you say you are a Christian than you believe the bible.  In the begining God created the heavens and the earth....genesis 1:1.  if you are a true Christian then this is what you believe.  that is the easiest thing to understand that ive ever read.  there is no grey area.  it says what it means and if you call yourself a Christian and dont believe this then its just like saying your a Christian that doesnt believe that Christ died on the cross for your sins.

If you are one of the hypocrits i speak of then i urge you to get it together.  It is plain to see that God created everything and that if you dont believe this your not a Christian so stop lying to other people and yourselves and making us true Christians look like a bunch of idiots.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:40 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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guest, i used to be a young-earth creationist myself. but i've realized that it is okay to believe in evolution and be a christian at the same time. you have to keep in mind that, while the bible was inspired by God, it is also a historical document and therefore must be taken in this historical context. humans never would have been able to understand evolution back in those days. it would have made no sense. you can be a christian and believe that there is room for human error in the bible at the same time.

believing in either creation or evolution does not make one a christian. what makes someone a christian is when they put their faith in Jesus Christ and believe He was the Son of God and ask for his forgiveness. you are not saved based on whether or not you believe in evolution or creation.

while faith is critical to most aspects of the Christian faith, one must not be close-minded to clear scientific evidence of evolution. if there is ever clear scientific evidence of creation, then i will believe it. but for now, evolution has the most scientific support. actually, an old-earth creationist is not necessarily going against any archaelogical evidence. i believe an old-earth creation is very possible. but anyone who believes in a young earth is.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:13 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
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No, guest, thankfully the majority of Christians are creationists. You can't be a true Christian and only believe in "part" of the Bible. If part of it is wrong, then how do you know that the rest of it is right? How do you know that Christ died for your sins? Maybe that was an error too! Maybe somebody accidentally wrote that Jesus only died for the Jews, maybe... Those Christians who do not accept creation have been brainwashed by the school system to believe a bunch of lies. There is no evidence for evolution, however there is very much evidence for creation. Those who do not believe in creation need to review their sources, and their faith!

-Calli
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:28 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Let me ask you guys something, what was Jesus' favorite method of getting his point across while he was on Earth?  If I remember correctly it was through the use of something called a Para-ble, an extended metaphor that at first seemed completely irrelevant.  God didn't come right out and say it.  The end of the world: revelations, does anyone with an shred of common sense go about that in a literal, narrowminded way?  Of course not.  God didnt come right out and say it.  

I'm sensing a recurring pattern here, that maybe things aren't exactly as we read them??  No surely not, God couldn't possibly expect us to think a little could he?  I'm not saying that Creationism is wrong, I'm not saying that evolution is right, I'm saying that there is a possibility that the two may be one in the same.  Here's something to chew on: Despite popular opinion that Genesis was written by Moses, it was actually written by 3 groups of people, the Elohists, the Jehovists, and a tradition under the Priestly.  The second account in Genesis was written by the Elohists who were Polytheistic and believed Elohim (the Christian God) to be the ruler of the other God's.  

What I'm saying is that this book was passed down orally for hundreds of years before it was written down.  People left out what they didn't like, enhanced what they did, there is even a theory that the story of Cain and Abel was actually war propaganda between the shephards of the north and the farmers of the south.  I don't necessarily agree with that, but you can't just dismiss all this.  

Oh and I'm sorry that my faith disappoints you, I'm sure that God is very happy to have a right hand man like you to help with his judgment calls.  And as much as you would like to pretend that it is petty crap like this that seperates brothers I think everyone who can look at this with any degree of objectivity would readily see that your selfish need to feel superior and "holier than thou" is the true source of the problem.  

I have a verse for you, "Look not to the speck in your brother's eye before addressing the plank in your own."


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 11:25 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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calli, i think it is very wrong of you to judge people like me and thistown by accusing us of not being christians. i believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for me and that He rose again. that is what christianity is all about.

if there is so much evidence for creation, then please tell me. i would like to see it


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:44 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
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Creationism is about believing without question a particular interpretation of scripture. Indeed, in a belief system of that nature, any questioning or original thought about the revealed knowledge is not only incorrect, it is sinful. In genuine science, on the other hand, questioning and testing of accepted or authoritative beliefs is the method--it's what you're supposed to do.  No wonder creationists detest and distrust science, and almost always fail to understand how it works.

Creationists hate faith. They count on evidence, words, logic, and arguments to uphold their views. All this reflects how weak or even absent their faith is. "See, we can prove that evolution is wrong, so that automatically means that the Bible is correct ." This implies a notion that Genesis is correct... just because evolution has (in their minds) been "proven" wrong. But then it follows that the Bible can in principle be proven wrong. Something which can be proven right can in principle be proven wrong. If creationists argue that they do have faith, and that the Bible is right regardless of the validity of evolution, then why on earth would they care about whether evolution is right.

Funny how science gets it all RIGHT when you want a computer, medical science to eliminate smallpox or treat your "erectile disfunction," anti-lock brakes to save your life--but all evolutionists--using the scientific method you take advantage of all day long--are wrong.

Also, I would add this further note: evolutionary biology gets it right when you want improved corn yields, a vaccine ready for this year's flu strain, or the discovery of new oil fields--but we must keep that a secret from the kids, or at least teach them that magic is an equally valid explanation for how things got to be the way they are.  

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 09:42 AM on January 24, 2003 | IP
Sarah2006

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Quote from Guest at 11:40 PM on January 23, 2003 :
first off i want to say that im a CHRISTian and im very much a creationist.  i think the theory of evolution is stupid and has no real backbone.  but im not going to go there right now because i just want to say something to the other "Christians" out there.

You've obviously never studied evolution in a detailed manner.

ive been reading posts on here and it seems that people keep sayin that most Christians are evolutionists and i just want to see if that is true.

It IS true, see the statistics under the "evolution is failing" thread.  The fact of the matter is most Christians and most CHristian religions DO accept evolution.  The bible is not inerrant and you cannot argue that it is.  There are too many mistakes that cannot be avoided.  It was devinely inspired but written by imperfect men.
 if there are any Christians that read this and believe creation is wrong im calling youf flat out a hypocrite.  if you say you are a Christian than you believe the bible.  In the begining God created the heavens and the earth....genesis 1:1.  if you are a true Christian then this is what you believe.  that is the easiest thing to understand that ive ever read.  there is no grey area.  it says what it means and if you call yourself a Christian and dont believe this then its just like saying your a Christian that doesnt believe that Christ died on the cross for your sins.

Are you saying NOTHING in the Bible is figurative.  Are you saying NOTHING in the Bible is wrong.  Are you saying that primitive men of the time would have been able to understand and write about macroevolution.  Prove it.

If you are one of the hypocrits i speak of then i urge you to get it together.  It is plain to see that God created everything and that if you dont believe this your not a Christian so stop lying to other people and yourselves and making us true Christians look like a bunch of idiots.

God did create everything, but he did it using evolution as the mechanism.  He did it over millions of years.  He did not cr eate it in 6 days 4,000 years ago.  If you believe that you are either hiding your head in the sand (Yes, literal Genesis is the easy way, unfortunatly I cannot lie to myself intellectuallly so I know it cant be true).  Or you are just ignorant of the evidence of an old Earth and of evolution.  Or you know about it and you are LYING to yourself.  I personally go with following the 10 commandments before believing a story in the Bible whose point is NOT how or when God made the world, but WHO and WHY, as well as the whole sabbath as a day of rest concept.  That is the point, not that the Earth was created in six days.

Originally Posted by Calli:

No, guest, thankfully the majority of Christians are creationists.

Wrong.  Youre a minority
You can't be a true Christian and only believe in "part" of the Bible. If part of it is wrong, then how do you know that the rest of it is right?

Faith, and if you think all the Bible is right you have never read it, there are a lot of mistakes.
How do you know that Christ died for your sins? Maybe that was an error too! Maybe somebody accidentally wrote that Jesus only died for the Jews, maybe...

Maybe, but I doubt it, they seemed to have gotten most of the important parts right, just not all the science, the Bible is not a science book.
Those Christians who do not accept creation have been brainwashed by the school system to believe a bunch of lies. There is no evidence for evolution, however there is very much evidence for creation. Those who do not believe in creation need to review their sources, and their faith!

You have obviousy never studied evolution in detail, and a lot of Christians are told Creation is right all their lives, but given no proof.  I would not call that brainwashing necessarily, but it is more brainwashing than being shown how and why evolution is true in school.

Sarah

(Edited by Sarah2006 1/24/2003 at 6:11 PM).
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 11:49 AM on January 24, 2003 | IP
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Sarah:
What do you believe? I'd say you're brainwashed because you were first taught evolution in school. Yes, I have studied evolution in detail (with an open mind) and have found it to be completely flawed. There is no proof for it and no missing links! Most Christians do not accept evolution because they believe the entire Bible.Not just the parts that they want to believe. (And they studied it with an open mind.) I found some Bible verses here clearly pointing out that not only is the Bile free from flaw, you cannot believe in only part of the Bible and be a true Christian.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 ALL scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness".

Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is FLAWLESS. He is a shield for
all who take refuge in him.

Luke 8:11-15 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they
are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

fallingupwards:
I'm not judging you. I'm trying to tell you that what you believe is flawed. You cannot simply think that by saying "God I believe you died for me" that you can get into heaven. It just doesn't work that way. You have to ask God to FORGIVE you of your sins and blindly trust that ALL of his words are true. He doesn't want just part of your faith/love, he wants all of it!

thistown:
Read falllingupward's message because it applies to you too. Oh yeah, read all of the other verses too. (You know, the ones that say ALL scripture is God breathed, etc.) Heres a verse for YOU: Proverbs 29:23 He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue. I am not perfect! I am so sinful that it makes me sick to my stomach. I have so many sinful thoughts, lusts, etc. I am not judging you! Nobody's perfect, were all sinners. I am just trying to save you from all the lies that this world is trying to feed you. ('Cause that's what Christians are called to do!) Matthew 5:14-16 14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do
people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

-Calli


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:17 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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So you honestly think that because me and falling believe that when God spoke it wasn't an instantaneous "it wasn't there then bang! it was" type of deal we are going to burn in hell for all eternity.  And don't back off in your next post and say thats not what you meant.  You just made a judgment call on the state of 2 people's souls that you've never met.  

I believe that a second to God is a million years to us, I believe that he is a creative God and created the laws and systems of this universe for a reason, not for the sole purpose of breaking them at birth.  You believe I will burn in hell for that.  Now, my friend you tell me who has a problem?


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 5:25 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
Sarah2006

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Quote from Guest at 6:17 PM on January 24, 2003 :
Sarah:
What do you believe? I'd say you're brainwashed because you were first taught evolution in school.

Hmmm....you are full of assumptions aren't you.     I was a YEC until just VERY recently when I took a class that focused on evolution.  I talked with my professor, and discussed things with him.  Every point that I pointed out flaws in or argued against he could argue for and close the holes in with empirical evidence.  You shouldn't asume.  I am a Christian (BTW-the definition of Christian is believing that Jesus died for your sins, and rose again.  It has NOTHING TO DO with whether or not you believe in a literal genesis.  I believe the main points of the Bible, but I believe many parts of it are parables or figurative.  The lessons, the laws and the ideas in it are the important parts NOT the science.  The only reason I bother to argue against creation is because the Bible says that Christians should witness to non-Christians and witnessing is NOT successful if you tell people they have to lie to themselves to be Christians.
Yes, I have studied evolution in detail (with an open mind) and have found it to be completely flawed. There is no proof for it and no missing links!

If you think there is no proof for it and think that it requires a missing link, then you either have not studied it in enough detail or you did not understand it.  
Most Christians do not accept evolution because they believe the entire Bible.Not just the parts that they want to believe. (And they studied it with an open mind.)

Sorry, this is not true.  Since you won't go look at the stats I originally posted I wil repost them here.  


The Christian View on Creation and Inerrancy
   
The statements describing the churches' stance on inerrancy and evolution have been taken from their web pages or other official documents. Statements have been chosen that seemed to best describe the church position on inerrancy and that best fit the current position, regardless of historic beliefs. Other writings may indicate a stance either more conservative or more liberal than the statements quoted here. Most Protestant churches have historically placed a high value on individual autonomy, diversity of opinion, and questioning authority, so that the official position of a denomination may not fairly represent the beliefs of the membership.
CHURCHES THAT SPECIFICALLY DISCOURAGE A LITERAL READING OF THE GENESIS ACCOUNT:
    *Unitarian Universalist Church. "Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and science"

CHURCHES THAT IMPLICITLY OR EXPLICITLY ENCOURAGE OR PERMIT A NONLITERAL INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE, OR THAT RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH OF EVOLUTION:
    *The Catholic Church. "Today, more than a half century after this encyclical, new knowledge leads us to recognize in the theory of evolution more than a hypothesis. ... The convergence, neither sought nor induced, of results of work done independently one from the other, constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory."
    *Most Protestant churches hold the Bible to be the sole source of doctrine, but generally do not imply that the entire Bible is to be accepted as dogma.
    *Disciples of Christ. "Faith with understanding; rationality and faithfulness in action, approaching the scriptures with reverent intelligence." This church strongly supports congregational and individual autonomy, and the position of individual churches may vary from this statement.
    *The Episcopal Church USA. "The Bible, interpreted in accordance with the findings of modern biblical scholarship, is the sole criterion in matters of dogma."
    *United Church of Christ. "The right of private judgment and the liberty of conscience are rights and privileges for all." This church strongly supports congregational and individual autonomy, and the position of individual churches may vary somewhat,
    *United Methodist Church. "Methodists acknowledge that scriptural reflection is influenced by the processes of reason, tradition and experience, while aware that Scripture is the primary source and criterion of Christian doctrine."
    *Greek Orthodox. "While the Bible is the written testimony of God's revelation, Holy Tradition is the all-encompassing experience of the Church under the abiding guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit."
    *Other Orthodox Churches hold similar positions.

CHURCHES THAT STRESS THE INSPIRATION OF THE BIBLE, BUT MAKE NO CLEAR JUDGMENT ON INERRANCY:
    *Presbyterian Church USA. "For Presbyterians and others of the Reformed tradition the Bible is the means by which Christian believers come to understand how God has been present with humanity since the beginning of time and is present in our world today."
    *Reformed Church USA. "We believe the Bible is God's Word for every person, made understandable and alive through the Holy Spirit's ministry. It is more than a textbook; it is the living Word of God, the source of all revelation of God's will, and the norm by which all teaching must be checked."
    *Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. "The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the written Word of God. Inspired by God's Spirit speaking through their authors, they record and announce God's revelation centering in Jesus Christ. Through them God's Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and fellowship for service in the world."
    *American Baptist Church, USA. "The Bible, interpreted by the individual, is regarded as the ultimate religious authority in matters of faith and practice."
    *Latter Day Saints (Mormons): "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ is divinely inspired scripture, as is the Holy Bible." This church receives interpretation of the Bible from church leaders; interpretation is subject to change.

CHURCHES THAT STRESS INFALLIBILITY, BUT WITHOUT SPECIFIC MENTION OF THE GENESIS ACCOUNT (OTHER WRITINGS MAY TAKE A STAND ON CREATION):
    *Assemblies of God. "The Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments, are verbally inspired of God and are the revelation of God to man, the infallible, authoritative rule of faith and conduct."
    *Churches of Christ. "The original autographs of the sixty six books which make up the Bible are considered to have been divinely inspired, by which it is meant that they are infallible and authoritative. Reference to the scriptures is made in settling every religious question. A pronouncement from the scripture is considered the final word."
    *Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. "The Bible is God's inerrant and infallible Word, in which He reveals His Law and His Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. It is the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine."
    *Southern Baptist Convention. "It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter." This church supports congregational and individual autonomy, and some local congregations may take a position either more or less rigid than is quoted here. A position statement has not been found for either of the National Baptist Conventions. In most matters of faith, they tend to follow the Southern Baptists closely.
    *Church of the Nazarene. "We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation, so that whatever is not contained therein is not to be enjoined as an article of faith."
    *Jehovah's Witnesses: "absolute obedience to biblical precepts". This denomination recognizes the "day-age" reading of Genesis, and hence believes in an "old earth", although evolution is opposed.

CHURCHES THAT SPECIFICALLY MENTION BELIEF IN THE GENESIS CREATION ACCOUNT:
    *Seventh Day Adventist. "Believe the Genesis creation account: God is Creator of all things, and has revealed in Scripture the authentic account of His creative activity. In six days the Lord made "the heaven and the earth" and all living things upon the earth, and rested on the seventh day of that first week."
    *Lutheran Church Wisconsin Synod. "Where Scripture speaks historically, as for example in Genesis 1 and 2, it must be understood as speaking of literal, historical facts."
    *Christian Science: "As adherents of Truth, we take the inspired Word of the Bible as our sufficient guide to eternal Life" "The true theory of the universe, including man, is not in material history but in spiritual development. Inspired thought relinquishes a material, sensual, and material theory of the universe, and adopts the spiritual and immortal." Some statements of the founder of this denomination appear to give at least partial credit to Darwinian evolution. However, on balance, the writings seem to tend more towards creationism.


DENOMINATIONS NOT DEMANDING BELIEF IN INERRANCYMEMBERS (MILLIONS)
    *Unitarian 0.21
    *Roman Catholic 60.28
    *Disciples of Christ 0.93
    *Episcopalian 2.54
    *United Church of Christ 1.47
    *United Methodist 8.54
    *AME/AMEZion 4.73
    *Antiochian Orthodox 0.30
    *Orthodox Church USA 2.00
    *Greek Orthodox 1.99
    *Armenian Orthodox 0.41
    *Presb. Church USA 3.67
    *Presb. Church America 0.26
    *Reformed Church 0.31
    *Evang. Luth. Ch. Amer. 5.19
    *American Baptist 1.77
    *Other liberal Baptist 2.50
    *LDS (Mormons) 4.71

TOTAL NOT PROFESSING INERRANCY 101.77
---
DENOMINATIONS DEMANDING BELIEF IN INERRANCY MEMBERS (MILLIONS)
    *Assemblies of God 2.37
    *Other Pentecostal 6.50
    *Luth. Ch. Miss. Syn. 2.59
    *Southern Baptist 15.66
    *Other conservative Baptist 11.70
    *Adventist 0.82
    *Wisc. Evang. Luth. Synod 0.41
    *Jehovah's Witnesses 0.71
    *Christian Science  (Est.) 0.5


 TOTAL PROFESSING INERRANCY 41.52

Source of membership data: Current issues of World Almanac, and Statistical Abstract of the United States.
Of those denominations surveyed, membership in churches not demanding a belief in inerrancy outnumbers membership in those that do by more than 2:1. Membership in churches professing belief in inerrancy is 15% of total U.S. population. The actual number of members accepting this belief is expected to be lower, because there are typically more church members who tend to accept a less rigid stance, than those professing a more rigid posture than their church's official position.
http://www.cesame-nm.org/Viewpoint/contributions/bible/position.html


The Islamic View:
   
From these verses of the Quran which I have quoted emerge the following conclusions:
( 1 ) The material from which man has been created is not eternal. It was created by God.
(2) Man's creation involved an evolutionary process extending over a long period of time. He was not created in a moment.
(3) Man was created from an origin of his own species. It is not correct that he evolved from a species of monkeys or apes which is the theory advanced by Darwin.
(4) One of the evolutionary stages through which he passed was something akin to stone or rock.
(5) He next passed through a stage of animal life but intelligence had not yet developed in him although he moved about, ate and drank like other animals.
(6) He became an intelligent being able to speak and communicate.
(7) In his final stage he devised a system of life and started on the road to civilization and culture. Instead of each individual living for himself, as is the case with other and lower animals, he began to work in cooperation with others of his species evolving a system and law of life.


The Jewish View www.jewish.com  
   
For many centuries the classical Jewish tradition has taught that the Torah teaches us WHY God created the world and THAT God created the world, but not HOW God created the world. While there are Orthodox (and even non-Orthodox) Jews who do not accept evolution, most of Judaism, including many Orthodox thinkers, recognize that religion and science ask different questions, and that there is no reason for a faithful Jew to reject scientific teachings. So yes, we accept evolution.


Of course I studied the Bible with an open mind, I was originally raised on it, with out understanding it, just believing it and as I got older I tried to understand it, and I would like to think I succeeded for the most part.  
I found some Bible verses here clearly pointing out that not only is the Bile free from flaw, you cannot believe in only part of the Bible and be a true Christian.

I love these judgemental Christians...it's so much fun to have my faith insulted every day and be told I am going to Hell every week.  So you believe EVERYTHING the Bible says do you?  Do you believe that a woman should be sold into marriage by her father.  Do you stone homosexuals?  Oh, those are old testament, a lot of the old Testament became obsolete when Christ died for our sins.  Oh Goodness!  Obsolete, the Bible can't be obsolete.  Do you realize there are some contradictions?  More importantly that there are BLANTANT mistakes??  Does a rabbit chew its cud?  Do Grasshoppers have 4 legs.  No?  Oh the Bible has mistakes then.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 ALL scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness".

Now if this said it was useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in science I would agree that I I was going against it but seeing as it says righteousness and I do use the Bible for all my morals, I am following it.

Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is FLAWLESS. He is a shield for
all who take refuge in him.

Ah...yes, but the Bible is inspired by the Lord but written by imperfect men, and then translated by imperfect men.  2 places where mistakes could be made

Luke 8:11-15 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they
are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.


Are you saying that being saved is based on whether or not you believe in an inerrant Bible??  That is what is implied with you using this verse to argue against theistic evolution.  Sorry, I know that redemption isn't based on that so this verse is irrelevant to this discussion.

Sarah

(Edited by Sarah2006 1/24/2003 at 6:24 PM).

(Edited by Sarah2006 1/24/2003 at 6:26 PM).
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 6:10 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
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seriously calli, you should not be so quick to condemn someone to hell. I believe in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ told us that if we follow Him, believe he was the Son of God and rose again, and ask for His forgiveness then I will live eternally with Him. I believe that Christ did all of these things and I have asked for His forgiveness. I am a sinner just like everyone else, and I have been forgiven by Christ.

NOWHERE in the bible does it say i must take every single word literally in order to be a christian. you dont take revelation literally do you? you take it symbolically. Jesus spoke in parables too. the writer or writers of the book of Genesis never would have been able to understand evolution. THE BIBLE IS NOT A SCIENCE BOOK AND GOD DID NOT INTEND FOR IT TO BE USED AS ONE. the sole purpose of the bible is for us to be saved from hell and to live like Christ.

you can judge me, you can condemn me to hell, you can do whatever you want to me. but you will never be able to convince me that i am not a Christian. me, sarah, thistown, and coolhanddave are all very strong Christian people and we do not take Genesis literally. but we have all accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. yet you insist that we will rot in hell.


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 6:26 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 8:26 PM on January 24, 2003 :
yet you insist that we will rot in hell.


Nowhere in my posts did I say that you would rot in hell. I simply said that you cannot believe in only parts of the Bible (Well, obviously YOU can but I wont go there.) I can't believe you guys are so defensive. I'm not insulting you, swearing at you, etc. Yet you act as if I am. You only want to believe in the parts of the Bible that benifit you and that is really sad. It's no use debating with you guys because you don't listen. I listened to every arguement you offered me and they made no sense. Just because the majority of you are evolution believing Christians doesn't mean that the majority of Christians in this world believe in evolution. There are no contradictions in the Bible, different people simply wrote them different ways. The events stay the same.

As for Sarah, you can take as many philosophy/evolution classes as you like. It's not worth arguing with you 'cause you just don't listen. I'm not a "Unitarian" "Universalist" "Catholic" "Protestant" "Presbeterian" etc. I don't belong to any "group" of Christians. So your statistics don't affect my view at all.

Sorry for my intrusion.

-Calli

youdebate.com "Where your ideas can change minds" --Yeah right
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:56 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
Sarah2006

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Nowhere in my posts did I say that you would rot in hell. I simply said that you cannot believe in only parts of the Bible (Well, obviously YOU can but I wont go there.) I can't believe you guys are so defensive. I'm not insulting you, swearing at you, etc. Yet you act as if I am.

No, but you implied it and we were just pointing out that that was an incorrect assumption.  You are actually  insulting our faith, of course, in reality it doesn't terribly bother me because I know the only judgemnt that matters is that of the Lord Almighty, but at the same time I find it offensive that so many Christians take it upon themselves to judge other Christians.

You only want to believe in the parts of the Bible that benifit you and that is really sad.

I really don't understand your point here, perhaps if you clarified what you meant by benefited us.  
It's no use debating with you guys because you don't listen. I listened to every arguement you offered me and they made no sense.

I listen quite well actually, and I even prove that more than you because I answer everyone of your posts point by point.  Obviously I do listen, and I actually am an extremeley open minded person.  My views change all the time because new points are introduced to me.
Just because the majority of you are evolution believing Christians doesn't mean that the majority of Christians in this world believe in evolution.

Now who isn't listening or reading posts.  Have  you even read any of my posts.  I gave statistics that showed that most of the Christians (and other religions for that matter) accept evolution and not a six day creation.
There are no contradictions in the Bible, different people simply wrote them different ways. The events stay the same.

I will agree with that, in most cases which is why I did not dwell on it.  You however did not respond to my comment on the Bible being blantantly wrong about some scientific facts.  How do you account for that???

As for Sarah, you can take as many philosophy/evolution classes as you like. It's not worth arguing with you 'cause you just don't listen. I'm not a "Unitarian" "Universalist" "Catholic" "Protestant" "Presbeterian" etc. I don't belong to any "group" of Christians. So your statistics don't affect my view at all.

You obviously read nothing I wrote.  My point was most Christians DO accept evolution.  You keptinsisting tat mst Christians were Creationists, I was simply pointing out that that was not true.  MOST (not all) Christians belong to a denomintation and accept the beliefs of that denomination.  So, by the statistics MOST Christians accept evolution.

Furthermore, give me one instance that I have not "listened."  I am having a debate with you (or at least I thought I was) and if you provide me with overwhelming evidence against my ideas then I will not ignore it.  I will take it into very serious account.  But you haven't, I have argued against all of your points, and if you have counter arguments I would love to hear them, but you have to my dismay not provided any.  All I do is respond to your points.  You have not responded to any of my points.  I am sorry you do not feel like debating with me, I would love to continue this discussion, but I guess that is not going to happen.  I am sorry, I thought this forum was for, but I guess I am wrong.  


youdebate.com "Where your ideas can change minds" --Yeah right

Well, I personally come here to practice debating not to change minds.  But may I suggest that if you want to change minds you back up your arguments with facts and make direct arguments as opposed to vague ones which are unclear about their relevance and are full of blantant assumptions.  

Sarah

(Edited by Sarah2006 1/24/2003 at 9:37 PM).
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 9:34 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
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Quote from Sarah2006 at 11:34 PM on January 24, 2003 : No, but you implied it and we were just pointing out that that was an incorrect assumption.  You are actually  insulting our faith, of course, in reality it doesn't terribly bother me because I know the only judgemnt that matters is that of the Lord Almighty, but at the same time I find it offensive that so many Christians take it upon themselves to judge other Christians.


No, I did not imply that you were going to rot in hell. I did imply that your belief system was flawed because you cannot simply believe part of the Bible and say that the rest is not true.

I really don't understand your point here, perhaps if you clarified what you meant by benefited us.


What I mean by "benefited you" is that you only believe in the part about how Jesus came and died for your sins and now you can go to heaven because you asked him to be your savior.

I listen quite well actually, and I even prove that more than you because I answer everyone of your posts point by point.  Obviously I do listen, and I actually am an extremeley open minded person.  My views change all the time because new points are introduced to me.


You do not listen because you keep coming up with irrevelant statistics to proove your point. Just because "Unintarians" "Presbyterians" "Catholics" (--I wouldn't consider them Christian, but oh well) believe in evolution, it doesn't mean that the majority of Christians believe in evolution. That would be like me basing a study on the number of atheists against abortion on some statistics that I found off of a site on homosexual atheists. Not all atheists are homosexual (obviously). In the same way, not all Christians can be catagorized as easily as putting them into "church groups".

Now who isn't listening or reading posts.  Have  you even read any of my posts.  I gave statistics that showed that most of the Christians (and other religions for that matter) accept evolution and not a six day creation.


(See above information)

I will agree with that, in most cases which is why I did not dwell on it.  You however did not respond to my comment on the Bible being blantantly wrong about some scientific facts.  How do you account for that???


How is the Bible "blatently wrong"?


You obviously read nothing I wrote.  My point was most Christians DO accept evolution.  You keptinsisting tat mst Christians were Creationists, I was simply pointing out that that was not true.  MOST (not all) Christians belong to a denomintation and accept the beliefs of that denomination.  So, by the statistics MOST Christians accept evolution.


Yes, most Christians belong to a denomination. But I know of MANY denominations which were missing from your statistics list.

Furthermore give mestance that I have not "listened."  I am having a debate with you (or at least I thought I was) and if you provide me with overwhelming evidence against my ideas then I will not ignore it.  I will take it into very serious account.  But you haven't, I have argued against all of your points, and if you have counter arguments I would love to hear them, but you have to my dismay not provided any.  All I do is respond to your points.  You have not responded to any of my points.  I am sorry you do not feel like debating with me, I would love to continue this discussion, but I guess that is not going to happen.  I am sorry, I thought this forum was for, but I guess I am wrong.  


I have provided you with very much evidence (scriptures etc.) but you refuse to believe it. You have only provided swayed statistics and quoted every one of my posts.

Wll, I personally come here to practice debating not to change minds.  But may I suggest that if you want to change minds you back up your arguments with facts and make direct arguments as opposed to vague ones which are unclear about their relevance and are full of blantant assumptions.


I never assumed anything. I said that you had obviously been taught evolution and accepted it. (Am I right? Stop me if I'm wrong.) You used to believe in the entire Bible until you decided to take philosophy and other classes which obviously swayed your point of view even more. I can tell that you are a very smart person from your posts (and probably heck of a lot older than me . But if you study the Bible like you have studied evolution and philosophy, you will realize that it is completely sound.

-Calli

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:54 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
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Cali says:  "There are no contradictions in the Bible...The events stay the same."

What about these:  (There are many many more.)


God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19

Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36

Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the  ark
- Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19

Terah's lifespan.
Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran.
According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when  Abraham  was
born and Abraham was 75 when he left  Haran.  Therefore
he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham  was  born)
plus 75  years (Abraham's age  when  he  left  Haran  -
Terah was dead at this time according to  Acts  7:4)  -
145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32 states he  lived
205 years.

God promises Abraham the land  of Canaan to live  in  -
Gen 17:8
God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised  land
- Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13

Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen  46:26-27,
Ex 1:5
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled  75 - Acts 7:14

Jacob was buried in a cave in  Machpelah's  field  that
was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought  from  the
sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16

The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 2:40
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6

God's plague kills 23,000 - Num 25:9
God's plague kills 24,000 - 1 Cor 10:8

The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies),
Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42
The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth  Benejaakan,  Moserah
(where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7

God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
God commands killing - Ex 32:27

Solomon's reign.
Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when  the  Hebrews
left  Egypt  to  David  beginning  his  reign   as   40
(Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul)  =  530  years.
According to 1 Chron 29:27, David reigned 40 years,  so
Solomon became king (when David died) 530  +  40  years
(of David's reign) = 570 years.  However, 1  Kings  6:1
states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when  he  began  the
Temple building) was 480 years after the  Hebrews  left
Egypt, ie. he  began  his  rule  476  years  after  the
Hebrews left. In sum,  there is a contradiction  of  94
years.

Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer  him  -  1
Sam 28:6
Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1
Chron 10:13,14

Jesse had seven children - 1 Sam 16:10-13
Jesse had eight children - 1 Chron 2:13-15

David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50
Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19

Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son,  Amaziah
his son, Azariah his son, Jotham  his  son  -  1  Chron
3:11,12
Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah  the  father  of
Jotham -  Matt 1:8,9

Asa removes the high places -  places - 2 Chron 14:2
Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14

Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Nacon -  2  Samuel
6:6
Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Chidon -  1  Chron
13:9

David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4
David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4

David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18
David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18

Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1

Joab's numbering of  the  army.  1,100,00  soldiers  in
Israel; 470,000 soldiers in Judah - 1 Chron 21:5
Joab's numbering of the  army.    800,000  soldiers  in
Israel;  500,000 in Judah - 2 Sam 24:9

David buys the land for the altar from  Ornan  for  600
shekels of gold - 1 Chron 21:24-25
David buys the land for the altar from Araunah  for  50
shekels - 2  Sam 24:24

Solomon had 4,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 2  Chron
9:25
Solomon had 40,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 1 Kings
4:26

The Temple pillars were 18 cubits - 1 Kings 7:15
The Temple pillars were 35  cubits - 2 Chron 3:15

The molten sea held 2000 baths - 1 Kings 7:23,26
The molten sea held 3000 baths - 2 Chron 4:2,5

The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7
The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19

The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15
The misery of wisdom -  Ecc 1:18

How the righteous suffer like the  wicked  -  Ecc  9:2,
Isaiah 57:1
How the righteous flourish - Psalm 92:12-13

No ills befall the righteous - Proverbs 12:21
How the righteous suffer - Job 12:4,6, Hebrews 11:35-37

The wicked will die prematurely    and  will  suffer  -
Psalm 55:23, Proverbs 10:27, Job 18:5,11,18,19
The wicked lifespan is long and they enjoy life - Psalm
73:3-5,12, Job 21:7-9

Man is to be holy - Leviticus 11:44, 19:2, 20:7
Only God is holy - Revelation 15:4

Drinking alcohol is acceptable -    Deuteronomy  14:26,
John 2:7-11,  1 Timothy 5:23
Drinking alcohol is not  acceptable  -  Proverbs  20:1,
23:31-34, Hosea 20:  

Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began his reign -  2
Chron 36:9
Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began his reign - 2
Kings 24:8

The captain takes 5 men of the king's council - 2 Kings
25:19
The captain  takes  7  men  of  the  king's  council  -
Jeremiah 52:25

Baasha dies and his  son  Ela  begins  his  reign  over
Israel - this was in the 26th year of king Asa of Judah
- 1 Kings 16:6,8
In the 36th year of Asa's reign, Baasha attacks Judah 2
Chron 16:1
NB. 2 Chron has Baasha still fighting 10 years after  1
Kings says he died!

The infancy narratives.
According to  Luke  2:21-39,  Jesus  is  taken  to  the
Jerusalem Temple eight  days  after  he  is  born;  the
family then go up  to  Nazareth.  In  Matthew  2:14-23,
after being born the family  flee  in  Egypt  and  stay
there until Herod dies; even on returning,  they  avoid
Judea and go up to Nazareth.

Jesus  began  ministry  after  John  the   Baptist   is
imprisoned - Mark 1:14,15,17.
Jesus's began ministry whilst John was free and  before
imprisoned - John 1:28-29, 3:25-30

Jesus baptised - John 3:22
Jesus did not baptise - John 4:2

The exorcism of Legion - being  2 men - Matt 8:28
The exorcism of Legion - being  1 man - Mark 5:1,2

The healing on leaving Jericho was 1 blind man  -  Mark
10:46,47
The healing on leaving Jericho was 2 blind men  -  Matt
20:29,30

No one has ascended into heaven  before  Jesus  -  John
3:13
Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11

Respect for parents taught -  Exodus  20:12,  Leviticus
19:3, Deuteronomy 5:16, Ephesians 6:1-2
Disrespect and rejection of parents taught - Matt 8:21-
22, 10:37, 19:29, 23:9, Luke 12:51,53, 14:26

People choose not to come to Jesus - John 5:40
People can only come to Jesus  if God wills it  -  John
6:44

Jesus judges - John 5:22,27, 9:39, 2 Corinthians 5:10
Jesus does not judge - John 8:15, 12:47

Christians to hate their brothers - - Luke 14:26
Whoever hates their brother cannot have eternal life  -
1 John 3:15

Jesus refuses to give signs -  Matthew  12:38,39,  Mark
8:12, Luke 11:29
Jesus did give signs - John 3:2, 20:30, Acts 2

Man judged/saved by  faith  -  John  3:15,16,36,  5:24,
20:31, Acts  2:21,  16:30,31,  Rom  1:17,  5:1,9,11,18,
10:9, Gal 2:16, Phil 3:9, Eph 2:8,9
Man judged/saved by works and  lifestyle - Psalm 62:12,
Proverbs 24:12, Matthew 7:21,  16:27, 19:16,17,  25:31-
46,  Luke  14;13-14,  John  5:29,   Acts   10:35,   Rom
2:6,7,9,10,  1 Cor 3:8

One of the disciples was lost - John 17:12
None of the disciple were lost - John 18:9

Jesus refers to David eating the consecrated  bread  in
the time of Abithar - Mark 2:25,26
In fact David ate the consecrated bread in the time  of
Ahimelech - 1 Sam 21:1-6

Disciples being sent out not to wear sandals -  Matthew
10:9,10
Disciples being sent out to wear sandals - Mark 6:8,9

No man can retain the spirit after death - Eccles 8:8
Peter restores spirit of Tabitha  after  death  -  Acts
9:37,40

Believers not to worry about  providing  for  family  -
Luke 14:26,33, 18:29,30
Believers must provide for family - 1 Timothy 5:8

Jesus did not bear witness to himself - John 5:31
Jesus did bear witness to himself - John 8:14,18

The law/commandments to remain for ever - Matthew 5:17-
19, Luke 16:17
The law has ended - Romans 7:4, Eph 2:15, Col 2:14

Simon and Andrew's home was in Capernaum - Mark 1:21,29
Simon and Andrew's  home  was  in  the  same  place  as
Philip's - Bethsaida - John 1:44

God has given all things into Jesus' hands - John 3:35
God has not given all things into Jesus' hands  -  Matt
20:23, John 5:19

Everyone sins - 2 Chronicles 6:36,  Ecclesiastes  7:20,
Rom 3:10,12,23
Believers do not sin - 1 John 3:6,9, 5:18

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:39 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
Sarah2006

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First off, just so you know so you can make your posts easier to read the first UBB code to make something be a quote is [ quote ], but the second should have and slash before it says "quote" like this [/ quote ]  That will close your quote box.


No, I did not imply that you were going to rot in hell. I did imply that your belief system was flawed because you cannot simply believe part of the Bible and say that the rest is not true.

Actually one of the verses you quoted seemed to imply it, but if you say it isn't so, then I believe you.

What I mean by "benefited you" is that you only believe in the part about how Jesus came and died for your sins and now you can go to heaven because you asked him to be your savior.

Actually, you are assuming again.  I believe any part of the Bible that does not have empirical proof against it.  I cannot lie to myself intellectually so as a result I cannot believe something that my intellect says can't be true.  Furthermore, under that logic I would do whatever I wanted, like I said before I follow all the laws of the Bible and live with as little sinning as possible.  That does not "benefit" me.  My problem is that I cannot follow the laws and believe that Genesis is literal.  



You do not listen because you keep coming up with irrevelant statistics to proove your point. Just because "Unintarians" "Presbyterians" "Catholics" (--I wouldn't consider them Christian, but oh well) believe in evolution, it doesn't mean that the majority of Christians believe in evolution. That would be like me basing a study on the number of atheists against abortion on some statistics that I found off of a site on homosexual atheists. Not all atheists are homosexual (obviously). In the same way, not all Christians can be catagorized as easily as putting them into "church groups".

That is true, and I admitted that by saying that MOST did.  And they were not irrelevant.  You have argued so that it is not absolute evidence, and your point is well taken, but that does not make it irrelevant.  Another thing to consider is that people who made those quotes and establish those religions policies are theological experts.  They went to school for it.  The fact that religious experts believe that Genesis is not literal is somewhat convincing evidence to realize that it is possible that it is not meant to be literal.  


How is the Bible "blatently wrong"?

I said that in an above post but I will repeat it.  At one point the Bible is describing some animals and it says that rabbits chew their cud (which they do not) and that grasshoppers have 4 legs (they have 6).  So the Bible is blantantly wrong about those things which are scientific facts.  This is evidence that the Bible is not always right about science.
Yes, most Christians belong to a denomination. But I know of MANY denominations which were missing from your statistics list.

Such as...

Sarah






 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 11:59 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
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man you people seem so stupid to me.  i only was able to read to sarah's post and id just like to say that i was the guy that started this thread.  and what i see from ur peoples post disturbs me.  i do think there are some figurative language in the bible but genisis 1:1 is not one of those versus.  and to sarah who says that God didnt do this and God did do that im sorry but unless ur God then you cant say what he did/didnt do.  also for me creation always wins over evolution because of one big piece of proof.  THE BIBLE...  it says that God created the heavens and the earth so thats what i believe.  thats what i put my faith in.  im not going to put my faith in men(scientists) they were not here when the earth was created.  to say that your going to believe what a bunch of men say over what the bible says is stupid.  to say your a christian and tell me that you dont believe that the bible but youw ill believe men?? thats being a hypocrit.  and to say that some christian denomonations believe and accept evolution then i also must ? their christianity.  next your going to tell me that the bible is not true when it says that accepting Jesus as your personal lord and savior is the only way to heaven.  maybe they messed that up and some scientists will find a back door somewhere.(yea thats not going to happen) personally it sounds to me like you are idolizing men.  and if this sounds like a "holy'er than tho" speech its not because i do look at myself everyday and think of how i can live my life for Him better.  think of this as a sunday school lesson.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 9:20 PM on January 26, 2003 | IP
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i'm sorry guest that you see Christians who believe in evolution to be hipocrites. being someone who believes in both evolution and Christianity can be difficult. yes, i do believe that there is a holy being out there watching over us, but i do not believe that he created all that we had. i believe that he had created the beginning life forms that evolved into man and everything alive now. there is nothing wrong with people's opinions. it is what they believe and you shouldn't hate them for their beliefs.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 06:23 AM on February 7, 2003 | IP
Pie

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That was the weirdest looking post I've ever seen.


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 12:40 AM on February 8, 2003 | IP
    
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