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Poll Question: Should pilots carry handguns on planes?   (19 votes)
  Yes n/a
  No n/a
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badler007

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Well, do you think that bringing handguns on a plane is working against the purpose?  kind of hypocrtical to keeping weapons off planes?  or is it a necessary defense?  im still not sure of my stance, but im leaning toward not having them on.


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Posts: 8 | Posted: 9:35 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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I hate guns, and even I think they should have em.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:45 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
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I know this is old, but I can't help myself...

What about all those stolen IDs and uniforms we had around a year ago? What about drunk pilots? I'd really rather expand the sky marshall program. How many jobs would that create? ;)


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 8:33 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
madbilly

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but a pilot would not be able to have the handgun unless he was the piloy of the plane. The flight crew is required to all check in at the same time and if a "phony pilot" was to try to check into the plane dont you think the flight attendants and the real pilots would notice them?


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 01:14 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
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Possibly... what if they replace all the pilots? You never no.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 07:13 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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this may sound very unusual coming out of me (because i am for gun control) but i think pilots should definitly be allowed to have guns in the cockpit. it is worth the risk if it is able to prevent terrorists from taking over the plane.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:35 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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so you are for guns in the cockpit for protection, but you are against the average american to have guns for protection, even though it is the same principle.  am i the only one that see the contradiction here?


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 11:42 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i dont believe that a pilot with a handgun is going to shoot and kill everyone in the plane. he will only do it for protection.

however there are many average americans out there who will not use a gun for only protection, but will use it to kill


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 2:24 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
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What if the pilot is a terrorist?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 4:54 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 2:24 PM on January 10, 2003 :
i dont believe that a pilot with a handgun is going to shoot and kill everyone in the plane. he will only do it for protection.

however there are many average americans out there who will not use a gun for only protection, but will use it to kill


how do you know that a pilot wont snap and kill everybody?  pilots are under alot of stress, more so then the average american, so whos to say they wont go on a killing spree.   how do you know there are many americans that will use their gun to kill?  


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 5:08 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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If the pilot wanted to kill everyone, he could do it with or without a gun (flying the plane into the ground could do the trick)


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:52 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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excellent excellent point dsa


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:05 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
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This is going to get a reply from dsa and I know it!
I don't think you should be alowed on a plane if you don't have some sort of weapon. And Falling, I believe your brainwashed. That's just what I think, I don't mean to be "offensive" but I thought you should know that I think that.
Everyone should have a weapon because a terrorist wouldn't make it five feet if he made a threat. And this wouldn't arm terrorist, this would kill them!
Falling, those average Americans that would go aroung killing people because you give them a gun (I understand the reason of "well they wouldn't do it under normal circumstances, but you just gave them a bigger temptation") they had better be carefull, because I wouldn't give them 3 months to live!
-FP
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 2:56 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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what makes you say that i am brainwashed? because i think differently from you? because i am far left?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:39 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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my friend, that must have been the most ridiculous idea in the history of mankind. you must have been joking around.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:46 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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that is, about arming all of the passengers in the plane (sorry, if i was not clear in the last post)


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:48 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Well here's my famous response (I'll try and use small words). The problem with your idea is that...its on an airplane. Airplanes are high in the sky, and have pressurized cabins. When a bullet passes through the cabin, the plane depressurizes, which is one of the primary reasons against having guns on planes. Personally, with one gun being in possession and that gun being owned by the pilot, I think that the risk is negiligible. With everybody having a gun and 100 bullets flying through the air at once, the risk of hitting delicate machinary and taking the plane down goes up astronomically, w/out making anyone safer. So its a dumb idea. But thank you for requesting a response.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:38 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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Falling,
That wasn't me calling you brainwashed. It's somone else probably trying to be funny.
dsa,
Your right about the pressurized cabin and stuff, that could be dangerous.
I do think that the pilots should carry them, BUT BE TRAINED! You can't (like dsa said) have 100 people shooting in an area so small, and so easally making a mistake and the terorrist plan is served. If the windows (and so on) were bullit proof, I would say every carry a gun, but the point is now they aren't. So, pilots, yes. Passengers, not yet.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:22 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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That's me up above.
-FP

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:23 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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even if the windows were made bulletproof, the fuselage is piercable. (of course, we could make the entire plane out of that "black box" material... )


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:35 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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No- use subsonic ammo. The bullet does not go faster than sound, disintegrates when it hits metal, but will still do a number on flesh. Still a bad idea to go around shootin' windows though.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 05:58 AM on January 16, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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are me and dsa the only ones who think that forcing all passengers to carry guns on planes is complete madness????


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 07:30 AM on January 16, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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no i agree that arming passengers is not a good idea, for the same reason dsadevil said, planes have very weak skins, a bullet could penetrate it really easily.  but i do feel if you have a carry permit then you should be allowed to have your handguns.  i think the pilots should be in locked cabins that cant be opend from the outside and every plane should have at least six air marshells.  two dressed in BDU's with full automatic M-16's at the front of the plane and the rest in plain clothes throughout the plane.


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 12:36 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Even if you own a permit, you shouldn't be allowed to have a gun on the plane. I like the air marshel idea better, 6 highly trained specialists packing uzis (It works well for Israel).


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:33 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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i think it would be better to have an air marshal on every plane. that is probably not possible though, so, even though i am huge on gun control, i also think the pilot should have a gun (with riot control bullets or something). and i think arming all the passengers qualifies as the dumbest idea I have heard on this site.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 4:52 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
American

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There are better bullets to use than riot control. Dsa might be able to tell you what the Mossad (Did I spell it right this time?) created for the Israeli flight marshals. If he can't tell you then I will.


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Posts: 26 | Posted: 6:20 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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maybe Dsa knows, but isn't that kinda I-don't-know-what-exactly to assume he knows random Israeli trivia just cause he's Jewish? and i have no idea what they should use, just making a guess. hey, does anybody else think the next big transportation security problem is commercial railways in the U.S.? there is zero security on Amtrak.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 6:38 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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alex, if you are so big on gun control then have you not been on the gun control debate? its like me against 5 gun fanatics and i could use some help.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:57 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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Quote from dsadevil at 3:33 PM on January 16, 2003 :
Even if you own a permit, you shouldn't be allowed to have a gun on the plane. I like the air marshel idea better, 6 highly trained specialists packing uzis (It works well for Israel).


you are probably right on not being allowed to carry your gun on a plane even with a permit, i am just very protective over my right to carry guns thats all.



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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 11:05 AM on January 17, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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I'm aware. But I am very protective of my right not to have a dozen "lets kill them A-rahbs" yokels with semiautomatics on the plane, endangering all of our safety. So I think air marshels and armed pilots is a good compromise.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:56 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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agreed.  that is a good compramise.



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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 1:47 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
Pie

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A few bullets going through the hull of a plane will not take it down in flames. Somebody has been watching to many movies, methinks.


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 10:05 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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It will depressurize the cabin though,which is the real problem. And according to a recent Washington Post report, one well placed shot with .50 calibur rifle from 300 meters away can take down a 747 jet. So planes are more vulnerable to small arms fire than we think (yes i know the guns on planes won't be .50 calibur, but they won't be 300 meters away either.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:23 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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The bullets created by the Mossad are sub-charged and square tipped. This insures that the bullet will not go through the steel hull of the plane at point blank, yet it is still powerful enough to kill a man in one shot the length the plane.

I agree that a depressurized cabin is a GREAT danger. At 25,000 feet (I may be wrong on the altitude here) it takes 15 seconds for someone to blackout after the cabin had depressurized.


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Are you a man of the times or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 26 | Posted: 12:45 PM on January 18, 2003 | IP
Pie

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I may be wrong, but aren't there already ajustable opening's on large planes to keep a steady airflow going through, and prevent the cabin from becoming stale?
Also, .50's are not the evil weapons people make them out to be. Ever try hitting a stationary target at 100 yards with a 30-30? Hitting a precise spot on a target moving over 100mph with a .50 from who knows how far away would be virtually impossible, unless the shooter was an extremely highly trained military sniper. Plus, the average .50 owner is a buisnessman with an income of over 50,000$ a year-hardly a terrorist profile.


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 5:37 PM on January 18, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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if i knew anything about the way airplanes are built, i would make a comment in this debate. but i dont. so i'll keep my mouth shut and learn from you guys.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 6:29 PM on January 18, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Actually the W. Post report on the .50 calibur deal said it was possible to make the shot with relatively little training (say...the amount provided in a little training camp in the backwaters of afghanistan?) And even if the average owner is a business man, all that is needed is for one terrorist to get his hands on it.
As for the plane air recirculation system, yes they have them, but they are very precise to prevent any catastrophic losses of pressure. Putting a bunch of bullet holes in the plane fuselage kinda throws the system out of whack.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:39 AM on January 19, 2003 | IP
Pie

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Apparently, whoever it was that wrote the report doesn't do much shooting. To hit a, say, fuel line, on a target moving over 100mph from any distance over 10 feet would be a helluvu (read:next to impossible) shot. Also, I seem to remember that at 25 yards away, a .50 bullet was unable to penetrate more than an inch of tank armour, which would still go through a plane side easily, but clears it up that they are not the monsters everyone makes them out to be.
And I doubt that there would be tons of bullet hole through the plane, unless people were blazing away at each other with subguns. Pilots with pistols against whacked out A-rab terrorists with knives would be over quickly, without a lot of damage unless the pilots were walking around randomly putting bullets into the walls for lack of anything better to do. The amount of bullet holes going through the planes shell would more than likely be small enough to deal with simply be closing the air circulation doohickys a bit more.


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:20 AM on January 19, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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I believe pilots or air marshels should carry guns. The depressurization argument was for our dear friend who said all passengers on planes should be required to carry them.
As for the .50 calibur, I dont think it was needed to hit the fuel tank to take it down. The engine would probably suffice, and that's a bigger target. Besides, this would be done at the comparitively lower speeds during take off and landing. Or while the plane is on the runway.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:29 AM on January 19, 2003 | IP
Pie

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I am in favor of armed pilots, placing an air marshal on every plane would be incredibly expensive. As for taking out the engines, most large passenger planes can fly a single power source, and only one shot may not damage it at all.
Now, as for acyually hitting the damn thing...
1)If wanting to shoot from within several hundred yards, the attacker would have to sneak a five foot long rifle into the airport, which essentially rules out a close shot.
2)From outside the airport, the shooter will have two options. He can make a very long range shot at a low angle on the plane as it is taking off, of he can make a higher angle, but closer range shot as the plane is in the air. Bu, the target will be moving a considerable amount faster.
A)He takes the low shot, anywhere from 500 to 2000 yards away. A shot over 2000 yards would be a virtual impossibility. Now, the shooter has to:
-account for the bullets trajectory from the range he is shooting at.
-account for the speed of the plane
-account for wind factors, weather conditions,
-find a target spot on the plane-which be very small, even through the scope, unless it was the engine, in which a specific area would have to be targeted in order to cause it to stop working-
-And, factoring in all of these, make the shot and destroy the plane. Plus, the stronger the scope, the harder it wll be to aim on a moving target, so being to precise isn't realistic.
B)Shooting as the plane gets closer simply compounds all these problems, as the target is travelling faster.



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Posts: 202 | Posted: 12:54 PM on January 19, 2003 | IP
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Quote from Broker at 4:54 PM on January 10, 2003 :
What if the pilot is a terrorist?



Hmmmm?  Pilot is wants to kill people.  So he leaves the the flight deck to go back and shoot passengers? Not very logical.

Why doesn't the pilot just crash the plane?  A pilot can kill lots of passengers without a gun.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:43 AM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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Quote from Pie at 5:37 PM on January 18, 2003 :
I may be wrong, but aren't there already ajustable opening's on large planes to keep a steady airflow going through, and prevent the cabin from becoming stale?profile.


Explosive depressurasation is the last thing you have to worry about?  In the cockpit there a panel that opens up the overhead.  The purpose of this is if all the navigation fails, a pilot can navigate by the stars by opening the panel and sticking an instrument out the opening.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:48 AM on January 20, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 07:30 AM on January 16, 2003 :
are me and dsa the only ones who think that forcing all passengers to carry guns on planes is complete madness????



This is one I have to agree with fallingupwards.  Your averge Joe gun owner doesn't train enough to be effective or safe in an airplane.  I don't imagine a citizen getting up and stopping terreorist while the plane is still flying safely.  But if you had 30 seconds left to live before the plane is crashed into a building.  Forget getting sued by a lawyer if I accidently shoot someone.  I'm going after the bad guys.  The lawyers can sue me later.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:59 AM on January 20, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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what should be do in case of an attempted hijacking.  the cabin should be locked so no one can get in, and at the first sign anybodies going to do something, then depressurize the cabin, just enough so everybody passes out, and then have the air marshells handcuff, and severly beat the would-be hijackers.


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 12:21 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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the cabin needs to be locked and the pilot needs to be armed. but what pie is saying is absolutely ridiculous. arming the passengers? that is complete hogwash.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:49 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 07:30 AM on January 16, 2003 :
are me and dsa the only ones who think that forcing all passengers to carry guns on planes is complete madness????



You don't have to force me.  Do I get to keep the gun after the plane lands and I go home?  I'd fly just for that perk.

I don't have a problem with armed responsible private citizens.  In this case there is a lot of training associated with being able to stop armed hijackers.  If your not trained for this role, then your just an irresponsible citizen with a gun.

Every shot you miss will go into a passenger.  You absolutly can not loose or even tie.  Winning means taking out multiple targets in close quarters, at all ranges, in all directions.

I have heard the recommendation that police and military traveling on personal business carry weapons on airlines.  Sorry I don't belive that even your average street cop is ready for this duty.

Want to fly armed?  Ask yourself if you are really ready?

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:48 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
Pie

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Strange, I don't seem to recall supporting arming all the passengers.


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 6:52 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
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the whole argument about the cabin pressure is pointless first of all. On 14 different occasions Boing has landed in flight bomb blasts. This is far worse than any .50 can do.

The idea of having air marshals on every flight is nearly impossible. The cost would be astronomical at that. Right now there is about 1 marshal to every 4 flights. Those arent very good odds when your dealing with people lives.

just allow the pilots to use the guns and train the flight attendents in hand to hand combat.

and falling upwards you can suck my right curved cock
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:06 AM on February 20, 2003 | IP
SilverStar

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Have any of you tried to point a .50 in the air hit a moving target? If one shot can take down a 747, than how any Japanese zeros made it back to base after being hit by the eight .50 MGs on the American fighters? If I remember a Zero is a lot smaller than a 747.

Also all modern commercial airliners have self sealing fuel tanks. I believe that a airplane is more likely to crash if ice forms on the wings than by a .50 rifle. Maybe we should ban cold weather.


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Darkside Enterprises were the impossible meets possible.

Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 10:08 PM on January 9, 2007 | IP
slow_talken

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A hand gun in the close confines of an airplane does not seem to be a good idea. My thinking is the risks greatly out way the rewards. The gun will serve its purpose most of the time. In the close corters of an airplane a gun could easy be stolen. The one time the gun falls into the wrong hands a great price will be paid.

Amendment No. 2

It seems to me that the best way for pilots to protect themselves is to give them advanced training in the use of a club or knife.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 12:56 AM on July 25, 2009 | IP
    
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