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EntwickelnCollin

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The difference being that the newly-freed Shiites are the ones causing the majority of the havoc. Their police force has been corrupted top to bottom. Group kidnappings and executions are often carried out and hidden by the very people we trained to fight insurgents.



Not realy the shea started the unrest. The shiites are striking back probably reprisal for the sheas unprovoked attacks.


Your posts are becoming ever-more incoherent, and your apparent knowledge of the issue ever-more lacking. By “shea,” I assume you mean “Sunni,” but it’s impossible to tell because “shea” has a pronunciation more similar to “Shiite” than “Sunni.” It’s clear you don’t even know which Islamic sect is which.

I’ve never forgotten about it because it’s a worthless figure.



I guess for you to have 70% of the country living peacefuly and no longer in squaler is   worthless I guess for you.


First you said it was 90% of the country. Now it’s 70%? You’re free to keep making these statistics up, but I’m telling you—you’re killing yourself with them.

How many of these are death by natural causes? As you know the radical muslums are very adept at propaganda and will boost the numbers killed by adding natural death to those numbers.


You don’t understand. The numbers aren’t from “radical *Muslims”; they’re from reputable family reports. Wouldn’t you know if your kids never returned from the playground? The daily death tolls are no estimates. It’s not as if survivors stand in their doorway and mumbled, “Well, I think my husband is dead, but I can’t know for sure—I only saw half his face get blown off by the suicide bomber.”

In the middle east there are medical problems caused by their culture allowing first cousins to marry. This causes their life expectancy to be much lower than it should be.  


……… Tell me you’re just pretending to be that dense. It’s not even worth repudiating. Your words speak for themselves.

Personaly I wouldn't beleave much that came out of that liberal institution but that would put it at 200 a day every day.. no exceptions since the war began. Or out of USA to day either.


Oops. You fail math. The figure doesn’t mean 200 people died every day anymore than the Holocaust figure of 11 million means a fixed number of people died in concentration camps every day. The number varies from day to day. A thousand die one day, 500 the next, 50 the day after that; then 200, followed by a week of relative peace in which only 20 die a day, shadowed thereafter by a week of extreme violence in which 300 die or are kidnapped a day.

Furthermore, the USA Today isn’t the source of that number. It’s merely reporting on the source that did come out with that number.

And, again, even if by some arbitrary, miraculous chance you were right, and 600,000 Iraqis haven’t died since the war began, you forget that this means 600,000 Iraqis have disappeared.


And I am sure they make a distintion between cobatants and innocents...


You’re grasping at straws with even more fervor than you were at the beginning of your post. The 600,000 figure is based on household surveys. These are people who live at their homes with their families.

And all those incursions do, according to all 26 of our own intelligence agencies, is create more insurgents! (Don’t forget our troops who die in the process.)



No it dosn't if you want to know what the muslum exstreamists are doing to recrute you need to see what the liberals and the main stream media don't want you to see or know it,s a documentary. Heres a link this will give you an idea as to what we are facing from these animals. This is why we can't stop this war it will only make them stronger..


Wait, what? The 26 intelligence agencies—like the NSA, CIA, yada yada—of our own government are wrong, and a partisan documentary is correct? Slow down. You’re seriously claiming that the way we detained droves of innocent males on the off-chance that they were guerillas didn’t insight more numbers for the insurgency? You’re off your rocker.

It may be but it is the only course we may have to bring around the peaceful muslums to realize that if they don't fight for their religion they will be at the mercy of the extreamists as we are.


Okay, I see. Your solution to end the religiously-motivated civil war in Baghdad is to get the innocent civilians to stand up and participate in the fighting. Good idea. The war will end much faster when we get the entire city killing itself off.





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http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
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Posts: 729 | Posted: 6:40 PM on November 22, 2006 | IP
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Quote from EntwickelnCollin at 6:40 PM on November 22, 2006 :
The difference being that the newly-freed Shiites are the ones causing the majority of the havoc. Their police force has been corrupted top to bottom. Group kidnappings and executions are often carried out and hidden by the very people we trained to fight insurgents.



Not realy the shea started the unrest. The shiites are striking back probably reprisal for the sheas unprovoked attacks.


Your posts are becoming ever-more incoherent, and your apparent knowledge of the issue ever-more lacking. By “shea,” I assume you mean “Sunni,” but it’s impossible to tell because “shea” has a pronunciation more similar to “Shiite” than “Sunni.” It’s clear you don’t even know which Islamic sect is which.


Sorry about that I was extremly tired when I wrote the post and neglected to proof read it. I am also sorry about not posting back earlier. You did seem to get the meening of my post so the verbal abuse was unnessary.


First you said it was 90% of the country. Now it’s 70%? You’re free to keep making these statistics up, but I’m telling you—you’re killing yourself with them.


Sorry about that I should have specified that in the earlier post I was refering to the population and was being conservative with that figure. In the later post I was refuring to  area as in the country.. I figured you would have understood that. Sorry I didn't make that clear.  

You don’t understand. The numbers aren’t from “radical *Muslims”; they’re from reputable family reports. Wouldn’t you know if your kids never returned from the playground? The daily death tolls are no estimates. It’s not as if survivors stand in their doorway and mumbled, “Well, I think my husband is dead, but I can’t know for sure—I only saw half his face get blown off by the suicide bomber.


I'm sorry but you don't seem to understand. How do you know whether they are reputable or not?? You don't, you are assuming this. There is know way of knowing if you are talking to a simpathiser or an extreamist or what. The extreamists have used propaganda in their quest for power from the begining and the liberal press and collages are all to happy to help them. I don't suppose you remember when our troops hit a safe house on the Sirean border and the community ( a Sunni occupied area) said that the house was full of familys. As the place was searched it was uncovered that some of the bodies were in advanced stages of riggamortis, Other bodies were clean no dust on them looking as if they were placed at the site, and still others were atopsied and were found to have died from natural causes. This is what these extreamists will do empty the morgue and pack the site of an attack with bodies because it plays well with the liberals in the propaganda war.

In the middle east there are medical problems caused by their culture allowing first cousins to marry. This causes their life expectancy to be much lower than it should be.  


……… Tell me you’re just pretending to be that dense. It’s not even worth repudiating. Your words speak for themselves.


You know that through this debate that I have had with you I have allways respected you and your oppinions, obviously you won't do the same for me... Insults only show one's desparation. And it is well knowen that inbreeding is previlent in the middle east causing a high mortality rate. I wonder if the This gives the extreamists plenty of bodies to use.  


Oops. You fail math. The figure doesn’t mean 200 people died every day anymore than the Holocaust figure of 11 million means a fixed number of people died in concentration camps every day. The number varies from day to day. A thousand die one day, 500 the next, 50 the day after that; then 200, followed by a week of relative peace in which only 20 die a day, shadowed thereafter by a week of extreme violence in which 300 die or are kidnapped a day.


Not realy. You have been giving figures of 600,000 and half of those have been kiddnaped. You don't seen to realize that 600,000 is a number larger than the population of Boston. These numbers are unrealistic since there isn't evidence to support those numbers except circumstantial evidence and to control, hide and feed 300,000 hostages would be impossable. And if those people were dead bodies would be popping up all over the place. This whole sinario is unrealistic.

Furthermore, the USA Today isn’t the source of that number. It’s merely reporting on the source that did come out with that number.


Who is the sorce Algizera?

And, again, even if by some arbitrary, miraculous chance you were right, and 600,000 Iraqis haven’t died since the war began, you forget that this means 600,000 Iraqis have disappeared.


All I'm saying is that I would like sources and evidence, it's just to thin for me to swallow.  

You’re grasping at straws with even more fervor than you were at the beginning of your post. The 600,000 figure is based on household surveys. These are people who live at their homes with their families.


Not realy you seem to be since you are beleaving what someone told you with no real evidence except circumstantial.

And all those incursions do, according to all 26 of our own intelligence agencies, is create more insurgents! (Don’t forget our troops who die in the process.)


The same agencies that got the WMD's wrong?



Wait, what? The 26 intelligence agencies—like the NSA, CIA, yada yada—of our own government are wrong, and a partisan documentary is correct? Slow down. You’re seriously claiming that the way we detained droves of innocent males on the off-chance that they were guerillas didn’t insight more numbers for the insurgency? You’re off your rocker.

It may be but it is the only course we may have to bring around the peaceful muslums to realize that if they don't fight for their religion they will be at the mercy of the extreamists as we are.


Okay, I see. Your solution to end the religiously-motivated civil war in Baghdad is to get the innocent civilians to stand up and participate in the fighting. Good idea. The war will end much faster when we get the entire city killing itself off.







(Edited by TRIGGER 3/31/2007 at 09:29 AM).


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 5:07 PM on December 3, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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This is just a side note, but I think I'm probably saying what most people might be thinking.... I can understand if English isn't your first language, but when most people read all the mispellings and grammatical errors in your posts, they are not going to think you're a foreigner or suffer from dyslexia or something, but are going to assume you're just too dumb to learn how to spell.  It may not be fair, and it may not be right, but you're not going to convice many people of your argument because most people are going to ignore your post because poor spelling and grammar are USUALLY equivalent to "not very bright" and most people don't figure someone who isn't very bright can teach them anything (much less be right about something).  It is my suggestion that you might wish to type your posts into something like Word or the like which can do a quick spelling and grammar check for you and then you can cut & paste a more coherent post.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 7:40 PM on December 3, 2006 | IP
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Quote from EMyers at 7:40 PM on December 3, 2006 :
This is just a side note, but I think I'm probably saying what most people might be thinking.... I can understand if English isn't your first language, but when most people read all the mispellings and grammatical errors in your posts, they are not going to think you're a foreigner or suffer from dyslexia or something, but are going to assume you're just too dumb to learn how to spell.  It may not be fair, and it may not be right, but you're not going to convice many people of your argument because most people are going to ignore your post because poor spelling and grammar are USUALLY equivalent to "not very bright" and most people don't figure someone who isn't very bright can teach them anything (much less be right about something).  It is my suggestion that you might wish to type your posts into something like Word or the like which can do a quick spelling and grammar check for you and then you can cut & paste a more coherent post.


Yes I do suffer from dyslexia. So did Einstein. It is a handicap that you or anyone else who dosen't suffer from it would not understand. It is actualy a gift, where you use one side of your brain to think and reason with Dyslexics use both hemisphers. It is like having 2 hard drives that scatter information on both drives with no phat file to reasemble the data this is why spelling and grammer are next impossable to master since it is memorization but when it comes to thinking, reasoning and anilizing it is a whole other ball game like when you look at a drawing you see a two dimensional image I look at the same image and I see it in 3 dimensions and can roll it around mentaly seeing all sides. So You have a problem with my afliction???

For me to do these posts takes hours and if I have the time I'll proof read the post numbers of times, as of late I have not had the time. I'm sure this makes your day. Thanks    




(Edited by TRIGGER 12/3/2006 at 10:52 PM).

(Edited by TRIGGER 12/3/2006 at 10:57 PM).

(Edited by TRIGGER 12/3/2006 at 10:59 PM).


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 10:51 PM on December 3, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I'm assuming then you didn't actually read my post.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 07:27 AM on December 4, 2006 | IP
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Sorry, I did read your post. I apologize. I do sometimes loose my temper on this since, for me it is very frustrating. Watching someone  easly master the task and I still struggle with it even after 44 years of trying.


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 4:27 PM on December 4, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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I'm sorry but you don't seem to understand. How do you know whether they are reputable or not?? You don't, you are assuming this. There is know way of knowing if you are talking to a simpathiser or an extreamist or what. The extreamists have used propaganda in their quest for power from the begining and the liberal press and collages are all to happy to help them. I don't suppose you remember when our troops hit a safe house on the Sirean border and the community ( a Sunni occupied area) said that the house was full of familys. As the place was searched it was uncovered that some of the bodies were in advanced stages of riggamortis, Other bodies were clean no dust on them looking as if they were placed at the site, and still others were atopsied and were found to have died from natural causes. This is what these extreamists will do empty the morgue and pack the site of an attack with bodies because it plays well with the liberals in the propaganda war.


Here’s a copy of the study for your benefit: http://web.mit.edu/cis/pdf/Human_Cost_of_War.pdf

Some notable points:

The survey is the only population-based assessment of fatalities in Iraq during the war. The method, a survey of more than 1,800 households randomly selected in clusters that represent Iraq’s population, is a standard tool of epidemiology and is used by the U.S. Government and many other agencies.

Between May and July 2006 a national cluster survey was conducted in Iraq to assess deaths occurring during the period from January 1, 2002, through the time of survey in 2006. Information on deaths from 1,849 households containing 12,801 persons was collected. This survey followed a similar but smaller survey conducted in Iraq in 2004. Both surveys used standard methods for estimating deaths in conflict situations, using population-based methods.

Here’s your often-appealed-to natural deaths figure:

The survey also reflects growing sectarian violence, a steep rise in deaths by gunshots, and very high mortality among young men. An additional 53,000 deaths due to non-violent causes were estimated to have occurred above the pre-invasion mortality rate, most of them in recent months, suggesting a worsening of health status and access to health care.

You know that through this debate that I have had with you I have allways respected you and your oppinions, obviously you won't do the same for me...


I’m sorry, Trigger, but please think about what you’re claiming. You’re claiming incest is responsible for the sudden spike—which is a significant number of hundreds of thousands of people—in violence. The idea is beyond ludicrous, not to mention about as disgusting of an outright insult as anyone could conjure. Your excuse is akin to coming out and saying, “Well of course 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust—they’re Jews! Jews die more often than other peoples!”

What’s more is that the study actually considered non-combat-related deaths. This is a study conducted by professionals who do census data for a living, officials within several health bureaus, officials within the United States Department of Defense and the United Nations, and the scholarly efforts of Johns Hopkins University and MIT.

Not realy. You have been giving figures of 600,000 and half of those have been kiddnaped.


Where did you come up with the idea that half the number of people are simply kidnapping victims? …Because I can tell you that you didn’t get it from me or the actual study.

You don't seen to realize that 600,000 is a number larger than the population of Boston.


Baghdad has 5 million people in it, Trigger. The size of Boston (which is closer to ten million when counting the metro and urban areas, by the way) has nothing to do with it.

These numbers are unrealistic since there isn't evidence to support those numbers except circumstantial evidence and to control, hide and feed 300,000 hostages would be impossable.


Why would kidnapping victims even be fed? They’re almost always executed.

And if those people were dead bodies would be popping up all over the place.


No kidding? Upwards of 100 bodies turn up every day in Baghdad.

Furthermore, the USA Today isn’t the source of that number. It’s merely reporting on the source that did come out with that number.



Who is the sorce Algizera?


No. The source is (from earlier) :

professionals who do census data for a living, officials within several health bureaus, officials within the United States Department of Defense and the United Nations, and the scholarly efforts of Johns Hopkins University and MIT.

And, again, even if by some arbitrary, miraculous chance you were right, and 600,000 Iraqis haven’t died since the war began, you forget that this means 600,000 Iraqis have disappeared.



All I'm saying is that I would like sources and evidence, it's just to thin for me to swallow.  


Very good. The link is still at the top of this post.

Not realy you seem to be since you are beleaving what someone told you with no real evidence except circumstantial.


I trust you’ll retract that statement now that you have in your hands the study.

The next part of your post is a little confusing. I see several quote boxes, but the last replies in them are all mine. Please clarify the last two quotes you have in your post.

For me to do these posts takes hours and if I have the time I'll proof read the post numbers of times, as of late I have not had the time. I'm sure this makes your day. Thanks    


It’s perfectly fine if you take your time, just so long as the next post doesn't arrive in, say, three months, when I’ve gotten board of checking this forum every day.

(Edited by EntwickelnCollin 12/4/2006 at 8:00 PM).


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 7:57 PM on December 4, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Trigger, not a problem.  Re-reading my post (and understanding that "tone" is hard to communicate on a forum) I can understand that it might be hard to determine whether I was actually trying to be helpful or condescending.  I consider myself a rather good speller and still double check myself from time to time (usually for the same words :P).  I was simply trying to liken it to the Jeff Foxworthy bit where he mentions that you don't wish your neurosurgeon to sound like a hillbilly.  It doesn't matter how good he is, most people won't be able to get past the part where he sounds like a hick.  I think you'll find a lot of people type their responses in Word to catch spelling mistakes before they cut and paste.  I know "looking up" a word can't always help with dyslexia, but using a spell checker can help clean it up before its posted.  And while many of the regular forum members around here will probably sort through the mispellings to see what you are trying to say, many people won't.  And most debates aren't made to convince the other debater, but the audience.  Most of the "audience" doesn't post.  


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Posts: 1287 | Posted: 01:34 AM on December 5, 2006 | IP
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I am not going to do this post with quotes. It just too time consuming that way. First I want to clear up is that the reason I brought up incest is that it causes high mortality rates and this gives the extreamists bodies to use as propaganda. As you may know this form of propagnda is widely used by the Muslim extreamists to rally simpathy for them in the US and foreign  press. They do this by packing a sight of a recent conflict with bodies (usualy women and children) and then bring in the press to view the bodies on display. But when these bodies are in pristien shape or in late stages of rigor mortis it is obvious that those bodies were brought in to generate simpathy for them and elevate the body count.

 I have looked over the study and have not changed my mind on it. As you read in the post,  studies of this kind have limitations those limitations are located in bias. As you know that any study is only as good as the people who collect the data and the indivduals polled. Any bias by either makes the study inaccurate. As it was said that the data was collected by Iraqis, no independants were involved in this task of gathering information.

Don't you find it peculiar that as they said in the conclusion that their count is substantualy higher than what is reported in various media and morgue tallies. This kind of raises a red flag to me since they state that 95% of their count had death certificates. If this is true then wouldn't these bodies have gone through a morgue? And if you look at the link at the end
( http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ ) they put the civilian body count at 55,000. Just a leap, but if both of these are true, that would put a whole new light on this report.

That puts the enemy combatant death toll at 550,000, That means that for every one of our guys killed we kill apx. 200 of them. Maybe our press should get this information out there, this would certainly put a damper on extremists recruitment capabilities. And since the extremists kill most of the civilans it say volumes about our troops ability to kill the combatants while protecting the civilans.

Now about the link I posted on the documentary. You dismissed it as a partisan documentary,
( http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/ ) sorry it isn't partisan since it is filled with video of these extremists ( in their own words ) calling for the destruction of the US and Israel. These are main steam leaders of of Islam doing this not some obscure extremist. There are interviews with former members of these terrorist groups, giving insite to what is going on in Islam, I did you the curtesy of reading your survey, reciprocate... If you find it as compelling as I did you may change your opinion and realize that a fascist religion is rearing its ugly head and knocking at the door. My fear is it may already be to late.  
       

(Edited by TRIGGER 12/10/2006 at 12:29 AM).

(Edited by TRIGGER 12/10/2006 at 12:38 AM).


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 12:27 AM on December 10, 2006 | IP
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I have looked over the study and have not changed my mind on it. As you read in the post,  studies of this kind have limitations those limitations are located in bias. As you know that any study is only as good as the people who collect the data and the indivduals polled. Any bias by either makes the study inaccurate. As it was said that the data was collected by Iraqis, no independants were involved in this task of gathering information.


First of all, you haven’t even proved bias. You don’t have any evidence at all that anyone who participated in the study was biased, and even if they were, that does not equate an automatic discount of the survey’s conclusion. Your whole argument is based on the assumption that this is all the conspiracy effort of two liberal universities.

Further, the data was not collected by Iraqi’s alone. Census and health bureau professionals put the whole operation together. Using your logic, it’s safe to assume the census of the United States of America is inaccurate too.

Don't you find it peculiar that as they said in the conclusion that their count is substantualy higher than what is reported in various media and morgue tallies. This kind of raises a red flag to me since they state that 95% of their count had death certificates. If this is true then wouldn't these bodies have gone through a morgue? And if you look at the link at the end
( http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ ) they put the civilian body count at 55,000. Just a leap, but if both of these are true, that would put a whole new light on this report.


Not at all. IraqBodyCount.net uses very restrictive methods of determining whether or not the victim was killed as a result of the war. It can’t be a murder victim ; witnesses have to see the person get killed in actual combat. It’s not enough that most of the bodies went through a morgue, and IraqBodyCount.net even explains these technicality limitations on their webpage.

That puts the enemy combatant death toll at 550,000, That means that for every one of our guys killed we kill apx. 200 of them. Maybe our press should get this information out there, this would certainly put a damper on extremists recruitment capabilities.


No, you don’t understand this at all. Most of these deaths are as a result of the civil war that’s raging on in Iraq. The majority of Iraqi deaths have been caused by other Iraqis. In addition, many of the victims are completely innocent, such as the 50 Iraqi administrators in the Green Zone that were kidnapped out of their offices by Moqtada al-Sadr's henchmen last week.

And since the extremists kill most of the civilans it say volumes about our troops ability to kill the combatants while protecting the civilans.


What? If the extremists are successfully killing civilians, how does that put a positive light on our failing efforts to keep the Iraqi populace safe?

Now about the link I posted on the documentary. You dismissed it as a partisan documentary,
( http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/ ) sorry it isn't partisan since it is filled with video of these extremists ( in their own words ) calling for the destruction of the US and Israel. These are main steam leaders of of Islam doing this not some obscure extremist. There are interviews with former members of these terrorist groups, giving insite to what is going on in Islam, I did you the curtesy of reading your survey, reciprocate... If you find it as compelling as I did you may change your opinion and realize that a fascist religion is rearing its ugly head and knocking at the door. My fear is it may already be to late.


There was no religious problem in Iraq until we invaded. Now we’re setting up a regime that is 80% Shiite and totally sympathetic towards Syria and Iran. Even religious mobsters like Zarkawi and Moqtada Al-Sadr spear-head the violence towards one another in a deliberate attempt to destroy the peace and maintain a grasp on their own power, and once the leaders die, another takes their place. The only thing this war has accomplished is the removal of one tyranny in exchange for another. The difference is that once we leave, the situation will be worse than it was before we came.

(Edited by EntwickelnCollin 12/10/2006 at 11:30 PM).


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 11:22 PM on December 10, 2006 | IP
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Quote from EntwickelnCollin at 11:22 PM on December 10, 2006 :
I have looked over the study and have not changed my mind on it. As you read in the post,  studies of this kind have limitations those limitations are located in bias. As you know that any study is only as good as the people who collect the data and the indivduals polled. Any bias by either makes the study inaccurate. As it was said that the data was collected by Iraqis, no independants were involved in this task of gathering information.


First of all, you haven’t even proved bias. You don’t have any evidence at all that anyone who participated in the study was biased, and even if they were, that does not equate an automatic discount of the survey’s conclusion.


Then why is there a bias disclaimer in the report. You have 2 religious sects that have been killing each other for centuries and are now locked in a civil war and you are claiming there is no bias. Besides it is not up to me to prove anything, it is up to the people doing the study to verify their results and conclusions free of bias.

Your whole argument is based on the assumption that this is all the conspiracy effort of two liberal universities.


I am skeptical of any study no matter who does it.    

Further, the data was not collected by Iraqi’s alone.


Look at page 5 under Conduct of the Survey...  "Two survey teams cosisted of two female and two male, each with one male supervisor. All were Iraqi." Need I say more...  

Census and health bureau professionals put the whole operation together. Using your logic, it’s safe to assume the census of the United States of America is inaccurate too.


They were not involved with the collection of data..

Don't you find it peculiar that as they said in the conclusion that their count is substantualy higher than what is reported in various media and morgue tallies. This kind of raises a red flag to me since they state that 95% of their count had death certificates. If this is true then wouldn't these bodies have gone through a morgue? And if you look at the link at the end
( http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ ) they put the civilian body count at 55,000. Just a leap, but if both of these are true, that would put a whole new light on this report.


Not at all. IraqBodyCount.net uses very restrictive methods of determining whether or not the victim was killed as a result of the war. It can’t be a murder victim ; witnesses have to see the person get killed in actual combat. It’s not enough that most of the bodies went through a morgue, and IraqBodyCount.net even explains these technicality limitations on their webpage.


Read the first page it states that only civilians killed were counted not combatants. That was my point The bulk of deaths are of combatants.  

That puts the enemy combatant death toll at 550,000, That means that for every one of our guys killed we kill apx. 200 of them. Maybe our press should get this information out there, this would certainly put a damper on extremists recruitment capabilities.


No, you don’t understand this at all. Most of these deaths are as a result of the civil war that’s raging on in Iraq. The majority of Iraqi deaths have been caused by other Iraqis. In addition, many of the victims are completely innocent, such as the 50 Iraqi administrators in the Green Zone that were kidnapped out of their offices by Moqtada al-Sadr's henchmen last week.


And you are saying that the deaths are not of willing participants? As I said only 1/12th of the deaths are of innocent civilans.

And since the extremists kill most of the civilans it say volumes about our troops ability to kill the combatants while protecting the civilans.


What? If the extremists are successfully killing civilians, how does that put a positive light on our failing efforts to keep the Iraqi populace safe?


I think that for the extremists it's a lossing proposition for them, 12 extremists die for every 1 innocent. Your statment dosn't make any sense, with that way of thinking because we have cops there should be no crime...

Now about the link I posted on the documentary. You dismissed it as a partisan documentary,
( http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/ ) sorry it isn't partisan since it is filled with video of these extremists ( in their own words ) calling for the destruction of the US and Israel. These are main steam leaders of of Islam doing this not some obscure extremist. There are interviews with former members of these terrorist groups, giving insite to what is going on in Islam, I did you the curtesy of reading your survey, reciprocate... If you find it as compelling as I did you may change your opinion and realize that a fascist religion is rearing its ugly head and knocking at the door. My fear is it may already be to late.


There was no religious problem in Iraq until we invaded. Now we’re setting up a regime that is 80% Shiite and totally sympathetic towards Syria and Iran. Even religious mobsters like Zarkawi and Moqtada Al-Sadr spear-head the violence towards one another in a deliberate attempt to destroy the peace and maintain a grasp on their own power, and once the leaders die, another takes their place. The only thing this war has accomplished is the removal of one tyranny in exchange for another. The difference is that once we leave, the situation will be worse than it was before we came.

I will address this later since I have a previous commitment.
(Edited by EntwickelnCollin 12/10/2006 at 11:30 PM).





(Edited by TRIGGER 12/11/2006 at 6:23 PM).


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 6:19 PM on December 11, 2006 | IP
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Then why is there a bias disclaimer in the report.


The following paragraphs detail all four uses of the word “bias” in the survey:

Page 4:

Selection of the sites
Selection of households to be interviewed must be completely random to be sure the results are free of bias. For this survey, all households had an equal chance of being selected. A series of completely random choices were made. First the location of each of the 50 clusters was chosen according the geographic distribution of the population in Iraq. This is known as the first stage of sampling in which the governates (provinces) where the survey would be conducted were selected. This sampling process went on randomly to select the town (or section of the town), the neighborhood, and then the actual house where the survey […]



Page 5:

Conduct of the survey
The two survey teams consisted of two females and two males, each with medical doctors with previous survey and community medicine experience and Arabic. All were Iraqis. All were trained in the use of the questionnaire. how to randomly choose another area if the first one chosen was unsafe
In each cluster, queries were made about any household that had been present
that had ceased to exist because all members had died or left. This was
“survivor bias” where only the households still “alive” could report.


Page 10:

Limitations
Any collection of information is open to potential bias, and has limitations. All efforts were made to
randomly select the households to be included in this survey, but it may have been that households with more deaths or households with fewer deaths were over represented in this survey. The finding that the 2006 results are very close to the 2004 household results suggests this did not occur. As in all surveys, a larger sample would have likely have produced a result with greater precision, although this would have exposed the survey teams to higher risk. In the future, when safety has improved, a large survey will be needed to determine in detail the total implications of the conflict for the people of Iraq.


Page 14:

Once the cluster is selected, additional sampling stages are required to locate neighborhoods and
eventually a single house where to start. For each of these selection stages, a random process is used so there will be no bias to select one location over another. Once the “start house” or location is selected, then the survey team moves to the next nearest (or sometimes the second or third nearest) house until the specified number of houses are selected (often from 10-50) to be interviewed in that cluster. The same is done for the other clusters.





In other words, they were aware of the possibility of bias and rectified the problem by taking precautionary steps. By calling these people biased merely because they're Iraqi's, you're calling the precautionary steps biased as well. Recall that every team has a doctor, a supervisor, and at least one of each gender--all fluent in Arabic. Why Iraqis that are fluent in Arabic? Well, probably because they're interviewing other Iraqis that are fluent in Arabic. Further, the research they made in two separate surveys from two different periods of the war is similar, which makes biased efforts to throw off the results next to impossible.

Some other points from your first paragraph:

(1)You have 2 religious sects that have been killing each other for centuries and are now locked in a civil war and you are claiming there is no bias. (2)Besides it is not up to me to prove anything, it is up to the people doing the study to verify their results and conclusions free of bias.


1.) It’s interesting that you admit the state of civil war. The 600,000 figure is meant to prove nothing more than the civil war, so if you discount the numbers but agree with the assertion, that’s fine by me.

2.) If you can’t present any reasonable doubt as to the validity of the survey, the study has nothing more to verify. You’re going to need more than the simple fact that Iraqis were the ones who went house to house

I am skeptical of any study no matter who does it.    


That’s understandable, but until you show a more accurate figure…

Census and health bureau professionals put the whole operation together. Using your logic, it’s safe to assume the census of the United States of America is inaccurate too.



They were not involved with the collection of data..


So? Do you think those same officials collect the data when they operate here in the United States? That’s not their job. They take the raw data and interpret it.

Not at all. IraqBodyCount.net uses very restrictive methods of determining whether or not the victim was killed as a result of the war. It can’t be a murder victim ; witnesses have to see the person get killed in actual combat. It’s not enough that most of the bodies went through a morgue, and IraqBodyCount.net even explains these technicality limitations on their webpage.


Read the first page it states that only civilians killed were counted not combatants. That was my point The bulk of deaths are of combatants.


I never said these weren’t civilians. The point is that their deaths had to have been observed from combat or very clearly as a result of combat (such as bodies under rubble or the mangled limbs of a bullet-riddled car).


And you are saying that the deaths are not of willing participants? As I said only 1/12th of the deaths are of innocent civilans.


If you’re able to calculate the ratio of civilians that died, this would indicate that know the total number of people that have died as a result of the war overall…


I think that for the extremists it's a lossing proposition for them, 12 extremists die for every 1 innocent. Your statment dosn't make any sense, with that way of thinking because we have cops there should be no crime...


This is the part where I ask exactly how you even came up with that ratio.

(Edited by EntwickelnCollin 12/11/2006 at 9:30 PM).


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Posts: 729 | Posted: 9:25 PM on December 11, 2006 | IP
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There was no religious problem in Iraq until we invaded. Now we’re setting up a regime that is 80% Shiite and totally sympathetic towards Syria and Iran. Even religious mobsters like Zarkawi and Moqtada Al-Sadr spear-head the violence towards one another in a deliberate attempt to destroy the peace and maintain a grasp on their own power, and once the leaders die, another takes their place. The only thing this war has accomplished is the removal of one tyranny in exchange for another. The difference is that once we leave, the situation will be worse than it was before we came.


You are wrong as I said these two religious factions have been warring for centuries. They were killing each other before Sadam seized power and continued during his reign, the only diffrence was that the Suni were the one's doing the killing. The Kurds and the Shiite's were doing the dying. As for Iran and Syria, Iran is Shiite and supports the Shiite, Syra is Suni and they support the Suni. This is part of the problem since they are causing the problem by arming and encouraging the combatants to fight.  



The following paragraphs detail all four uses of the word “bias” in the survey:

Page 4:

Selection of the sites
Selection of households to be interviewed must be completely random to be sure the results are free of bias. For this survey, all households had an equal chance of being selected. A series of completely random choices were made. First the location of each of the 50 clusters was chosen according the geographic distribution of the population in Iraq. This is known as the first stage of sampling in which the governates (provinces) where the survey would be conducted were selected. This sampling process went on randomly to select the town (or section of the town), the neighborhood, and then the actual house where the survey […]



Page 5:

Conduct of the survey
The two survey teams consisted of two females and two males, each with medical doctors with previous survey and community medicine experience and Arabic. All were Iraqis. All were trained in the use of the questionnaire. how to randomly choose another area if the first one chosen was unsafe
In each cluster, queries were made about any household that had been present
that had ceased to exist because all members had died or left. This was
“survivor bias” where only the households still “alive” could report.


Page 10:

Limitations
Any collection of information is open to potential bias, and has limitations. All efforts were made to
randomly select the households to be included in this survey, but it may have been that households with more deaths or households with fewer deaths were over represented in this survey. The finding that the 2006 results are very close to the 2004 household results suggests this did not occur. As in all surveys, a larger sample would have likely have produced a result with greater precision, although this would have exposed the survey teams to higher risk. In the future, when safety has improved, a large survey will be needed to determine in detail the total implications of the conflict for the people of Iraq.


Page 14:

Once the cluster is selected, additional sampling stages are required to locate neighborhoods and
eventually a single house where to start. For each of these selection stages, a random process is used so there will be no bias to select one location over another. Once the “start house” or location is selected, then the survey team moves to the next nearest (or sometimes the second or third nearest) house until the specified number of houses are selected (often from 10-50) to be interviewed in that cluster. The same is done for the other clusters.





In other words, they were aware of the possibility of bias and rectified the problem by taking precautionary steps. By calling these people biased merely because they're Iraqi's, you're calling the precautionary steps biased as well. Recall that every team has a doctor, a supervisor, and at least one of each gender--all fluent in Arabic. Why Iraqis that are fluent in Arabic? Well, probably because they're interviewing other Iraqis that are fluent in Arabic. Further, the research they made in two separate surveys from two different periods of the war is similar, which makes biased efforts to throw off the results next to impossible.



This where you have made a mistake. Read.
Any collection of information is open to potential bias, and has limitations. All efforts were made to
randomly select the households to be included in this survey, but it may have been that households with more deaths or households with fewer deaths were over represented in this survey.


This is the disclamer. Since this is a study done by polling and there is no solid body count, it is an assumption with no supporting evidence.  



Some other points from your first paragraph:



1.) It’s interesting that you admit the state of civil war. The 600,000 figure is meant to prove nothing more than the civil war, so if you discount the numbers but agree with the assertion, that’s fine by me.


Sorry my mistake, I don't think civil war would actually be accurate. I think religious civil war would be more accurate. Since it seems to me to be a continuation of the killing that was going on before Sadam with a civil twist added in to it.
If it were truly a civil war the Kurds would also be involved in the fighting.

2.) If you can’t present any reasonable doubt as to the validity of the survey, the study has nothing more to verify. You’re going to need more than the simple fact that Iraqis were the ones who went house to house


It says in the survey  
Once the “start house” or location is selected, then the survey team moves to the next nearest (or sometimes the second or third nearest) house until the specified number of houses are selected (often from 10-50) to be interviewed in that cluster. The same is done for the other clusters.[/b]

This was not house to house it was a poll. So, many things can alter the accuracy of it, not just bias.



That’s understandable, but until you show a more accurate figure…


Census and health bureau professionals put the whole operation together. Using your logic, it’s safe to assume the census of the United States of America is inaccurate too.


Do you know the diffrence on how the data from a poll is collected and a Census. In a Census everyone is polled not a random few, as in this poll..


So? Do you think those same officials collect the data when they operate here in the United States? That’s not their job. They take the raw data and interpret it.


Yes this is true but anytime a poll is taken it will be more accurate if the people collecting the data are independant of the poll, in this way there is no desired out come..

Not at all. IraqBodyCount.net uses very restrictive methods of determining whether or not the victim was killed as a result of the war. It can’t be a murder victim ; witnesses have to see the person get killed in actual combat. It’s not enough that most of the bodies went through a morgue, and IraqBodyCount.net even explains these technicality limitations on their webpage.




I never said these weren’t civilians. The point is that their deaths had to have been observed from combat or very clearly as a result of combat (such as bodies under rubble or the mangled limbs of a bullet-riddled car).


Yes by a third party. And remember that the moruge tallies and other media put these numbers substantially lower than the study. So I guess that everyone else is wrong....  



If you’re able to calculate the ratio of civilians that died, this would indicate that know the total number of people that have died as a result of the war overall…


Not realy, All I did was to use the numbers that were in the survey to show that the people who were dying were willing participants, if you were to go by your survey. Most people would have no simpathy for them since they chose to get involved in the blood shed and lost their lives in the process.


This is the part where I ask exactly how you even came up with that ratio.


Just use your study numbers and the body count numbers and you have it. This is all subject to the accuracy of the study. And if it is correct it looks to me that the bad guys are getting what they deserve...

(Edited by EntwickelnCollin 12/11/2006 at 9:30 PM).





(Edited by TRIGGER 12/19/2006 at 7:14 PM).

(Edited by TRIGGER 12/19/2006 at 7:20 PM).

(Edited by TRIGGER 12/19/2006 at 7:29 PM).

(Edited by TRIGGER 12/19/2006 at 7:41 PM).


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 7:10 PM on December 19, 2006 | IP
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EntwickelnCollin What happened? God I was having a good time debating you... Looks like you bailed on me...


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 8:47 PM on February 1, 2007 | IP
    
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