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Is Public Education Failing?†

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/public_education_failure.HTM
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 7:21 PM on April 30, 2002 | IP
Jigokusabre

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It's fairly common to hear that U.S. children were ranked 25th among students from highschools in countries around the world.

The language has a very negative connotations (that being "U.S. Children are dumber than Singaporian children, or Japanese cildren, or French children, etc.)

What most people fail to realise is that the United States allows every child to go to high school, and by extention, exposes every child to these standardised tests.

This is in contrast to countries like Germany and Japan, that only allow the most acedemically adept 10% to attend highschool. The average child in America is being compared to the best and brightest in Japan. Is it any wonder we finish 25th?

A more accurate test would place American honor students up against children from foreign highschools. I'm confident that on a fairl battleground, America's best students are right on par with, if not better than, the best students of  any nation.

Of course, that wouldn't happen. We don't want parents to have the impression that schools are doing fairly well. We want to sell the idea that schools are failing, so school districts can get more funding.

It's hard to make the case that we need to improve education when we are in the uppermost eschalon of public highschool performance.



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Posts: 30 | Posted: 9:13 PM on August 19, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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No public schools are not.  Teachers are underpayed, so why overwork?  And some kids are very intellegent in public schools...


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 3:37 PM on September 24, 2002 | IP
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I think public schools are failing some, and being very successful with others.

The main problem I see, is regardless of how smart and how fast a student learns, they are always taught at the same speed. The few exception are usually by skipping something instead of learning it at a quicker pace, which is far from the best method.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:41 PM on September 26, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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I agree.  It really depends on if th child wants to learn or not.  If he wants to skip class/subject, his fault.  However, it is not the school's fault he does so.  It's his own fault.  So the schools themselves cannot be blamed.  Also, most schools, such as mine, are doing reviews fromn last year.  I am in algebra, but right now, we are doing prealgebra as a review.  This is so that students don't skip anyithng, even that which they have already learned.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 08:45 AM on September 27, 2002 | IP
Chai

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I don't think ALL public schools are failing. The one I go to, regardless of exxoss's statement, does rather well. The reason they review material is to wake you up from summer (for those of use who do not go to a year round school) and to make sure everyone's on the same page, and that's only for, like, the first month of the year. Now, a lot of schools are failing, because, as other people have said, public school teachers don't get paid enough, and like in our state, there is no teacher's union, so teacher's aren't allowed to go on strike, like in the North. And if you're using a study comparing a Harlem high school, no duh it's going to say we're failing. We're not nessecarily stupider than other countries, just more ignorant and bigoted
 


Posts: 30 | Posted: 5:51 PM on September 27, 2002 | IP
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(Sigh, thats what i just said)  Public schools do not enforce learning enough, and kids dont get punished enough for not doing theier homework.  They should be givin extra homework for not doing theirs, worthpart of their grade.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 09:09 AM on October 11, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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the remark of german and japanese only allowing the top ten percent to go to high school is incorrect. They have varying types of "high school" they have the haupschule and the Gymnasium (not to be confused with a gym in america) the gymnasium is the typical high school and the hauptschule is the advanced school. The gymnasium is what the comparisions they use are based on not the higher school. When a german comes over to america if hs english is impeccable and he has graduated from either school he has the equvilence of an assosiates degree based on a two year college.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 01:12 AM on October 23, 2002 | IP
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[color=fuchsia]i think that it is not the all to blame on the public schools it is somewhat the parents faults that some of them dont make their kids do homework or go down to the school to check on how they are doing. it is lso the students fault if they do not have the desire to want to learn an go to school then they will leave the same way they came not knowing anything. then when they want to go out to get jobs they wont know how to do anything and they will eventually be working at Mcdonalds flipping burgers or the head fry cook.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:35 AM on November 6, 2002 | IP
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[b][i][color purple)all of the people say that they have bad teachers but the teachers have their degree and they are trying to help you to get yours and at the sanem time all of those teachers are not certified and are just not qualified to teach.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:49 AM on November 6, 2002 | IP
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i think that public schools are not all that they could be. i attended a center for the gifted and talented in elementary school and  a magnet program in middle school. i need to be pushed beyond the average student, and public schools have not done all they can to support me being pushed ahead.  there have been several situations where i have gone to teachers and requested further information on a subject we learned about, and the teacher has been uneducated on the subject and unwilling to do further research.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 3:21 PM on November 8, 2002 | IP
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Are public schools failing?  It depends on how you look at it.  On one hand, they're failing our children miserably!  On the other hand, they're doing just what they were designed to do!  That's right, forced schooling is designed to "dumb down" America!  Look around, our children are being taught seven primary things:
1.Confusion (no order, it's not supposed to make sense)
2.Class (or caste) Position ("stay in your place and don't you dare think anything different from what I say!")
3.Indifference (to everything)
4.Emotional Dependancy
5.Intellectual Dependancy (what to "think", not HOW to think)
6.Self-Esteem Based on the "Expert's" Opinion
7.That You Can't Hide, You're Always Being Watched (no privacy, no individuality, you're just one of the masses who are being molded to serve your superiors)

Where did I get this?  From a New York City and New York State Teacher of the Year!  His name is John Taylor Gatto, and he's written several books based on thirty years of teaching experience!  It's not my intention to advertise or anything, so I won't mention the title of any of his books unless someone asks.
Our schools "teach" kids to read so well that many of them can't read their high school deploma!  Pardon the sarcasm.
Our public schools do teach kids something though, they teach them to buy buy buy, to trust the "experts", that they're nothing more than highly fermented slime, that life has no meaning, that there is no absolute truth or right and wrong!  Is this what we want?  Is this the America for which many of our Founding Fathers, and countless others throughout the years have given their lives?

Is the public school system failing?  I'm looking from the perspective of an American who cares about his country, so I say yes!


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David B. Thompson


God
Bless
America!!!
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 10:07 PM on December 21, 2002 | IP
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i was home schooled until the seventh grade, and before i started public school i was reading on a 11th grade level, after i started i started to decline.  so yes i feel that schools are failing.  before i started going to public schools i didnt have to worry about the social aspect, and i think that schools now put too much emphasis on being social then the real education.


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 10:30 PM on December 21, 2002 | IP
David_B_Thompson

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From what I hear, Maynard's experience is pretty typical.  Kids simply learn better at home than in school.  Why?  Because at home, you're not herded from class to class at the sound of a bell.  At home, you can learn at your own pace, naturally.  That's simply the way God created us, and public schools work against it.


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Posts: 43 | Posted: 12:57 PM on December 24, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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homeschooling is fine if the parent knows what he/she is doing. but in many cases the one who is teaching the child at home is not as qualified as a teacher at school. especially in high school, how can the parent know as much as all the other teachers on subjects such as calculus, european history, physics, and chemistry? certainly he/she wouldnt be an expert in every subject.
secondly, it is very important for the child to interact with other students his/her age. you can argue that sports leagues will do that for a homeschooled child, but it doesnt compare to having 25 other classmates that you can interact and learn from. if a child is homeschooled, then he/she will not be open to other ideas, he/she will only learn what the parent wants him/her to learn.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:35 PM on December 25, 2002 | IP
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First of all, the teachers don't know everything either!  I have said this before, and I'll say it again, with few exceptions, parents are more qualified to teach their children than the teachers in public school!  The public schoolteacher's job is to dumb your child down and mold him\her into a human resource that can be used by big corporations, big so called "experts", and big government!  You doubt me?  Then read John Taylor Gatto's "The Underground History of American Education".  Did you know that our public school system comes from India?  That's right, America's public schools are designed to keep kids dumb, and to "keep them in their place"!


It's very important to realize that the teachers are not always at fault!  They are simply the pawns of the monster.  They're being used, and many of them know it and are frustrated!


Are public schoolteachers, with the curriculum and methods that they are forced to use, capable of teaching your child?  Well, considering the fact that we're now turning out high school graduates who can't even read their own diploma, I'd say no!  Despite what the "experts" will tell you, America is getting dumber!


The SAT has been changed to make us look better, but the military still tells the truth.  (They have no choice!)  At the beginning of World War II, 18,000,000 men showed up to register for the armed forces.  96% of them were considered "literate", at least enough to be a soldier.


When the Korean War started, only 81% of the applicants were considered literate.


In the '70s, literacy dropped to 73%, and many of those were only barely literate!


Back in the 1840's, (before forced schooling was introduced over here) America's literacy rate was between 93% and 100%.  Oops!  I forgot to tell you one tiny detail; the standards used by the military from WWII and forward stated that you were literate if you could manage to read fourth grade material.  The standard in the 1840's?  Literacy back then meant that you were reading the original "Ivanhoe", and other comparable works.


What has happened since 1840 that is causing the kind of illiteracy that we're seeing today?  Forced Schooling!


Henry Ford, one of the primary founders of American Forced Schooling, was awarded the highest honor that the German government could award a foreigner-by Adolph Hitler!


And I haven't touched anything but literacy!  (Definitely an important issue!)


Okay, so now that we know that public schools are incapable of teaching our children, what about parents?


Well, considering the fact that children, unhindered by the public school system, learn on their own, I wouldn't be too concerned.


Ever noticed that Home Educators keep taking high awards at those big academic competitions?  Maybe you also noticed that standardized test scores consistently show Home Educators passing their public schooled counterparts?


Another goal of the forced schooling establishment in America is to train kids to believe that they can't think for themselves.  They have to let "experts" do their thinking for them!


The fact is that parents need to teach their children how to read, (an easy task) research, and think, then provide the materials for everything else and, WHAM!  The next thing they know, their kids are teaching them!


My mother started teaching me to read when I was four.  She never finished the curriculum.  Why?  I guess she saw me devouring book after book with enthusiasm and figured that I didn't need the rest of the curriculum.  She was right!  At age nine I was reading books labeled "teen", and by the time I hit fourteen I was reading stuff written back in the eighteen hundreds and beyond!  Yes, I've read "Ivanhoe"-as well as "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea", "Hound of the Baskervilles", and tons of others!  In fact, not only am I crazy about reading, but I also write!  (No books published-yet!  I'm working on it though!)


Ah, yes!  The "socialization" argument!  Forget sports!  Home school support groups, annual conferences, and, of course, e-mail, take care of that "problem".


Besides, where in life do you interact with only your own age group?  Nowhere except in school!  Talk about unrealistic!  Kids need to learn to relate properly with people who are older or younger than they are so that they can be ready for the real world!


Me?  I'm the first of ten kids.  I interact with a broad age range- infant and up!  This is real life!


Another note on ďsocializationĒ:  The type of socialization that goes on in public schools today results in teenage pregnancies, illegal drug use, illegal alcohol use, STDs, murder, theft, etc..  Well, theyíre dead, dying, sick, pregnant, or in jail, but at least they socialized!


Ideas:  Excuse me?!!!  Are you saying that kids in public school are trained to be open to ideas other than those held by their teachers and peers?  Yeah right!  They're brainwashed in public schools!  They're taught that they evolved from slime even though ALL SCIENCE PROVES OTHERWISE!!!  (Don't argue with me on that point here, do it on the "Evolution: Evilution" forum)
B.F. Skinner said "Education is what is left behind after what has been learned has been forgotten."  (Some people attribute that quote to Albert Einstien too)  Like it or not, you are a product of your education.  Your beliefs are molded by whoever teaches you!


"He/she will only learn what the parent wants him/her to learn."  Right!  remember what I said about parents learning from their children?  I, in case you haven't noticed, am a home educated student, and half the time my parents don't know what I'm learning until I tell them!  And they're not concerned about that either, because they've taught me how to think!  I hold opinions that are well-backed, and if anyone can prove that I'm wrong, I'll change that opinion!


Well, sorry I've taken so long, but all of that had to be said, and I hope you've paid attention to it!  For more information, (yes, it does exist!) I would highly recommend John Taylor Gatto's books, especially "Dumbing Us Down", and "The Underground History of American Education".


America's public school system has failed our children, and it's time for parents to step in and take over!!!



-------
David B. Thompson


God
Bless
America!!!
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 06:08 AM on December 28, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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okay david, explain to me this. all teachers are required to get a four-year college degree. most parents that home school their children dont have this.
i'm in college working on a history degree so i can eventually teach history. there is no way that some stupid parent that has never gotten a history degree is going to know more than me. and even if he/she does, they're not going to be equally as smart in all the other subjects.

by the way david, i thought you were a republican. but now you are describing big corporations as a bad thing. your fellow republicans are the ones who are ruining the school system. for example, george w bush wants to increase state testing...which has been proved to not help at all.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:11 AM on December 28, 2002 | IP
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Public schools are what have made America great.  Through the years public schools have helped democratize our nation, strengthen our communities and widen opportunities for our people.  Without public education we would not have as strong a democracy as we currently have in the U.S. as compared to the rest of the world.

Public education can enliven our democracy, by nurturing the skills and knowledge of democratic citizenship in classrooms and communities alike.  Only in a system of public schools can all citizens execise their right to shape education and in turn the future of society.

Education for democracy means more than civics courses on the three branches of government.  To become effective democratic citizens, students need to master the skills of democratic deliberation.  They must learn to respect different points of view, and how to understand, communicate, and resolve their disagreements with others.

Public schools, schools that open their doors to a wide diversity of students, can offer students the opportunity to interact with others who may not share their background or their outlook.  Private schools, schools that pick and choose their students, place students in an environment where they see only reflections of themselves, not different perspectives on life and living.  And home schooling completely limits the students contact with different perspectives, except in a false setting such as this one.

If we want to build a democracy where citizens have the capacity to look beyond narrow self-interest, we need to build a system of education that nurtures respect for the public interest.  Only the public school system can move us toward this goal.

American communities are disintegrating amid ever growing ethnic, religious, and racial tension.  Through public education, we can bring communities together.  Public schools build community identity and intergrate students from diverse backgrounds.  Public schools teach students the mutual respect and understanding they need to work together as adults in a complex, pluralistic society.

And David, you have been reading way to much propaganda from the home schooling companies, who try to justify their products by making home schooling seem normal.  It is not.  Most of your facts and statistics are misleading and meaningless.  Like your numbers on literacy for the military.  What meaning could they possibly have for society in general, when they only apply to people who enlisted in the military.  I'm reminded of the old saying "figures lie, and liars figure".  These literacy rates would be such an unrepresentative sample of society as to be meaningless.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 5:17 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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one of my neighbors has been homeschooled since he was a little kid and now he is 17 years old. he is not very intelligent at all and he has NO social life. people who are homeschooled typically do not have good relationships with other people their age


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:30 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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the key to home schooling is that the parent must take a part in their childrens education, they cant just sit back and expect the kids to do it all, even if the parent doesnt understand the subject i still feel it is better.  there are tutors that can help with the more difficult stuff.  

i dont have problems with socializing from being home taught, i traveled many places with my dad and i learnd to socialize with people of many different ages.  on the other hand once i started public school, everything changed, i was now forced to deal with people my age that where so caught up in what you are wearing, who are you dating and other crap like that, that doesnt belong in education.  i didnt learn very well in school because i was too concerned with not getting picked on because i didnt have a pair of 70 dollar pants.




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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 9:38 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
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Here are statistics on what is happening in public education today:

The proportion of 4th, 8th, and 12th graders reaching the two highest levels of achievement in reading has increased steadily since 1992 and hit the highest point ever in the latest National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) reading tests.

Math scores have increased for all age groups on NAEP tests, and the proportion of students reaching the highest two levels of achievement in math has doubled for grade 4, increased 80 percent for grade 8, and risen 41 percent for grade 12.

More students are taking tougher courses than ever before: The percentage of students who completed a core academic curriculum of 4 years of English and 3 years each of mathematics, science, and social studies has increased fourfold since 1982.

The average SAT scores continue to rise. Verbal SAT scores have increased 6 points since 1990, while math SAT scores have risen 22 points since 1980 and 13 points since 1990.

The percentage of students completing high school is the highest in American history, as is the proportion of high school graduates who have gone on to complete a bachelor's degree or higher.

Most of the stories you hear about public school failures are untrue.  Of course, not all do well, but the vast majority do very well.  Most failures occur in major metropolitan areas, where there are many problems that effect the outcome, and most have nothing to do with the quality of teachers.  Usually the failures can be found to occur because of social economic problems within the community.

The statement that "schools are designed to keep kids dumb" is complete b.s.  Probably the best way to keep kids dumb is to home school them.  

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 04:44 AM on December 30, 2002 | IP
David_B_Thompson

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Guest, public schools will be America's downfall!

A strong democracy?  Is that what you call it when the people don't vote?

"Public education can enliven our democracy, by nurturing the skills and knowledge of democratic citizenship in classrooms and communities alike."  True?  Maybe.  Sure, it's probably possible for a public school system to do this, but ours doesn't!  That's not how it's designed!

"Only in a system of public schools can all citizens exercise their right to shape education and in turn the future of society."
What?!!  Are you saying that parents can't "exercise their right to shape education and in turn the future of society" at home?
Are you saying that they can do that in public schools?  Have you ever tried to get the school to change their curriculum because you find it offensive and dangerous?  (Unless you're a liberal, in which case, since it fits in with the school's agenda, you have no problem)

"Education for democracy means more than civics courses on the three branches of government.  To become effective democratic citizens, students need to master the skills of democratic deliberation.  They must learn to respect different points of view, and how to understand, communicate, and resolve their disagreements with others."

You're absolutely right!  The trouble is, our public school system doesn't do this!  It does just the opposite!  It teaches that whatever the "experts" tell you to do is what you should do!  It teaches that you shouldn't think for yourself!  They're taught that anyone who disagrees with their anti-God, anti-truth curriculum is just a "right-wing wacko"!  Explain that!

Different perspectives?  Okay, show me where Creation is taught in public school!  Show me where Christianity gets a fair hearing!  So much for your "different perspectives"!  The only perspective taught in public school is secular humanism!

About the "diversity of students", Maynard's experience (harassments and peer pressure) are typical.  I don't see how this "diversity" is helping us.  Don't get me wrong, it's important to be able to relate to people who are different from yourself!  But public schools don't teach you that, they teach you to relate (improperly) to people of your own age.  Where's the diversity there?

Reading propaganda from "home school companies"?  What?  Most of the information I've given out on this forum came from a man who spent thirty years teaching in public school!  He was awarded the New York City and New York State Teacher of the Year Award!  And he doesn't promote home education either.  He talks about the problems of the public school system.

Fallingup, why was that child educated at home?  And do you know him well enough to say that he's "not very intelligent and has no social life"?  Even if you do, does that mean that "people who are home schooled typically do not have good relationships with other people their age"?  Don't bother saying "yes", because I'm home educated, and I have good relationships with people my own age, as well as people of other ages!  I'm enrolled in the Advance Training Institute, and I know many other people, my age and otherwise, who relate beautifully with others, whether in their "age group" or not!  How do public schooled students relate to other people of a different age?  Or even the same age?  (Do school shootings and teenagers killing each other for a pair of tennis shoes or sunglasses ring a bell?)

Maynard is absolutely right!  Keep in mind, he's seen both sides of it.  (Home education vs. public schooling)

Guest, those statistics are based on tests that have been changed to make our school systems look good.  Success is always in spite of the public school system, and never because of it.

You're right, Guest, the failure of the public school system is not because of the teachers!  It's because of the system!  Read Gatto's books, then compare notes with reality.  All I'm asking is that you take an open look at the facts.  Get Gatto's books and read them!

"Keeping kids dumb" is not the issue, "dumbing them down" is!  Is home education the best way of "dumbing kids down"?  Well, here's an abbreviated list of people that you might have heard of who were home educated:
John Adams, (1735-1826) 2nd president of the United States
John Quincy Adams, (1767-1848) 6th president of the United States
Thomas Edison, (1847-1931) inventor
Benjamin Franklin, printer, inventor, statesman, and more
Abraham Lincoln, 16th president of the United States
Leonardo da Vinci
Irving Berlin, composer of "White Christmas", "God Bless America", and others
Felix Mendelssohn
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
John Witherspoon (Princeton University President)
Stonewall Jackson
Robert E. Lee
Douglas Mac Arthur
George Patton
Alexander Graham Bell
Orville Wright
Wilbur Wright
William Henry Harrison
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Theodore Roosevelt
John Tyler
George Washington
Woodrow Wilson
George Washington Carver
Pierre Curie
Albert Einstein
Blaise Pascal
Booker T. Washington
Konrad Adenauer
Patrick Henry
William Penn
Henry Clay
John Jay
John Marshall
John Rutledge
George Bernard Shaw
Mark Twain
Mercy Warren
Daniel Webster
Richard Basset (Governor of Delaware)
William Blount (U.S. Senator)
George Clymer (U.S. Representative)
William Few (U.S. Senator)
Will Rogers
And many others!

Fallingup, back to your post: Just because you have a "degree" in history doesn't mean that you know history.  You're being "taught", (in the public schools and universities, this is another word for "brainwashed") to adhere to a censored version of "history".

Again, if the information is out there, which it is, a home educated student can get it.  And learn it too!  On his\her own!  The parents don't have to know it!

You have ignored the fact that home educators' test averages are consistently higher than their public schooled counterparts'.  Home educators are also a felt presence in national academic competitions!  How do you account for that?

I do consider myself a Republican.  Republicans tend to have this crazy idea that if you spend your whole life working hard for something and you get it, it's yours and the government has no right to destroy it!
I'm against the school system training kids to be good little employees and followers instead of entrepreneurs and free thinkers!  If someone worked hard to build a big company and they succeeded, good for them!  But don't brainwash our kids into thinking that they have no choice but to work for you!

President Bush wants more testing in public schools, and why don't you think that helps?  Simply because if the tests are accurate, they'll show the failure of the public school system all the more!

Not only that, but why, when you oppose those tests, do you say that they've been "proven not to help"?  I thought you said that we didn't need help?  I thought you were of the opinion that public schools aren't failing.  If they aren't failing, why would they need help?

A final thought for you: this is a quote from John Gatto, (You know who he is by now!) "Institutions, say their political philosophers, are better at creating marching orders for the human race than families are; therefore they should no longer be expected to follow but should lead.  Institutional leaders have some to regard themselves as great synthetic fathers to millions of synthetic children, by which I mean to all of us.  This theory sees us bound together in some abstract family relationship in which the state is the true mother and father; hence it insists on our first and best loyalty."

Again, public schooling is failing America!


-------
David B. Thompson


God
Bless
America!!!
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 5:59 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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okay, it is official. david is looney

you give NO evidence to support your claims. you said that the public school system is not designed to enliven our democracy. well, explain what you mean by that!!! how is it designed??? what evidence do you have??? in order to be good in a debate, you have to BACK UP what you are saying.

secondly, christianity is not taught in public school because public school is supposed to teach secular things, not religion. if you want ur kids to learn christianity, send them to SUNDAY SCHOOL. public schools are not supposed to teach christianity. that is the church's job.

yes, there is a diversity of students in public schools. when a white kid is homeschooled, he/she will never interact with black kids or with asians or any other race.

that child was educated at home because his mom wanted to "protect" him from the "evils" of public schools.

and yes, i am going to know A LOT more about history because i am studying it in college. common sense will tell anyone that if you study a course, you will get smarter at it. and btw, you are completely off your rocker when you say that history books are wrong. give me ONE single example of that!!!

btw, all the homeschooled students that you listed were only home schooled because there was NO SUCH THING AS PUBLIC SCHOOLS BACK THEN. dont be an idiot david. i have comprised a list of my own of people who have been taught in public schools:

Martin Luther King Jr
Billy Graham
Bill Gates
Tony Blair
Mother Theresa
Colin Powell
George W Bush
Bill Clinton
Jimmy Carter
Gerald Ford
Richard Nixon
George Bush Sr
Ronald Reagan
Dwight Eisenhower
Lyndon Johnson
John F Kennedy
Franklin Roosevelt
and millions of others (notice i put both liberals and conservatives in there to make you happy)

but according to you, all the people on this list are dumb because they were not home schooled


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:23 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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Also, you will not that David's list of home schooled people includes no one who was schooled at home within the last 25 years.  Can you name one person of note who was homeschooled with in the last 25 years?  Is there one CEO of a fortune 500 company who was home schooled?  Is there one person who was homeschooled within the last 50 years who went on to become president?  Is there one person serving in Congress today who was homeschooled?  Are their any living Nobel prize winners who were homeschooled?  Is there anyone currently serving on the supreme court who was homeschooled?  My guess is the answer to all of these questions would be: no there are none.

Plus your statistics of home schoolers doing better on standardized tests is flawed.  No one has yet to compare statistically identical samples of home and public school students.  Existing studies rely too much on middle-class students, who predominate home schooling, such students will usually test well regardless of the learning environment.  This is versus the public schools, who test all students from all backgrounds.  So the comparison is not statistically meaningful.

Homeschooling may work in early education, but beyond that students are best served in a classroom setting.  Most parents are not qualified to teach.  Alot of the parents are poorly educated themselves.  Especially for science and math, there is a need for somone with a broader background to prepare the student for more abstract concepts.  Many parents aren't prepared for that.

What if a parent has a daughter who had appendicitis but was worried about hospital mortality rates, what would you think if they said: "I'll get some books and read up on appendicitis and treat her myself at home"?  You'd think that was ridiculous, the same holds true for homes schooling  beyond early education.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 08:04 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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the answers to all your questions are no. the fact is david, that home schooling simply does not work. parents are not qualified. MAYBE early education, but i would even doubt that (because learning to read is such a critical part of an education). very good analogy guest, when you gave the example of a parent with a sick daughter


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:33 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 09:33 AM on December 31, 2002 :
the answers to all your questions are no. the fact is david, that home schooling simply does not work. parents are not qualified. MAYBE early education, but i would even doubt that (because learning to read is such a critical part of an education). very good analogy guest, when you gave the example of a parent with a sick daughter



so you are saying David is an uneducated dolt because he was home schooled?  and what about me?  




-------
I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 4:17 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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no, i'm not saying that you are unintelligent. i am just saying that public schools do a far superior job.  btw, did david ever say he was home schooled?


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:25 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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I have a unique point of view as I went to both home (grades 3-8) and public school( grades 1-2, 9-12) I don't really remember much from the first stint in public school, just that I got in lost a fights. As for the time in home school, niether of my parents had above a high school degree but they showed me how to learn! I then took that and hit the books. So by the time I got to high school, I saw how biased the books and teachers were. (not a blanket statement, there are a precious few teachers that allow their students to think) So I took in whatever crap they gave to me, looked it up on the 'net to filter the good from the fairy tales and apply whatever suited me. (or interested me)


-------
Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:50 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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you say that you "filtered" all the information on the internet...but how do you know that the internet source is reliable? i would trust a textbook before a website by joe-blo anyday. and who's saying that your parents weren't "biased" and the teachers and books were?


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 08:54 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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I did not just go to one website- I would go to many to see what several differant viewpoints had to offer. As for my parents, there was a distinct lean to the right from both of them but as I said, they were not there most of the time. If you look at most of todays "pure science" textbooks, you can't help but notice loads of crap. I don't care about some south african tribe that cannot count past three if I'm learning math. Nor do I want to hear how many poor little critters I'm rendering homeless by sharpening my pencil or flushing more that once from my geology book! Equations! Facts! Numbers! Thats what I wanted from my high scool, not some political nonsence ('cept in government, of course).


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 09:51 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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ok, so your parents were biased. and if they didnt teach you and textbooks are "evil", then how did you get educated? and thats fine that all you care about is math and numbers, but some people also enjoy a literary or liberal arts education as well


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:20 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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But they TOLD me that! They did not go preaching that there way was the only way. All they did (for things other than pure sciences) was say "this is what was reported/presented, ect... this is what I think, you decide" or something like that. If there was a differance in opinion (often there was) we would talk it over sorta like this forum. However, in my old school, it was "this is what happened, that is all" with little or no discusion as to why that view is the correct one. Students that did not take the hand-feeding of left wing propoganda were given bad grades (me) Now, if this were a pure science class, then 2+2=5 is wrong. But if it's your OPINION that is being graded, then I got problems. In that case, grades should depend on class participation, not how well you respond to brainwashing.


-------
Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 01:12 AM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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public schools today are nothing more than babysitters, and bad ones at that.  i feel that an person that is homeschooled has much more of a grasp on reality.  


-------
I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 09:13 AM on January 2, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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what school did you go to? in all my literature classes, we had open discussions about what the books we read meant or symbolized. nobody's opinion was labeled as wrong....

please please please stop making excuses!!! now you're saying that the reason you got bad grades was because you "did not take the hand-feeding of left wing propoganda". why dont you just admit for once in your life, that maybe you are wrong?

to maynard:  wow, those schools must be great babysitters. virtually every successful person in the second half of the 20th century was not homeschooled. and how can home schools give a person a "grasp on reality" when they are with no one but their parents all day?


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:10 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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It apears it was not your school! I only got bad grades long enough to figure out how the game was played, then all I did was write down what they said the answer was.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 9:26 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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you cannot assume that every public school is like yours


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:14 AM on January 3, 2003 | IP
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i know that is true for all the schools in my area.  


-------
I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 12:08 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
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It's a very interesting question here and I thought that I would givey two cents.

I have always been of the oppinion that public education was not doing it's job. It's not that the idea of students collected together discussing and exploring thoughts and ideas in an open and analytical environment is a bad thing. I just don't think that that is what our schools are doing. I am nearing the end of my undergraduate education and I have to say that we have been and still are concerned primarily with information. Students are evaluated on their ability to collect and regurgitate knowledge. In this sense I would be just as satisfied with someone who had read a lot of books because they will have all the facts just like me. My professors test me on my knowledge and I suppose a little on my ability to write coherently. I do not have to be critical in any real way. Facts are tricky things far more mutable than we like to think, it is important that children and adults for that matter be critical. Not just of others but chiefly of themselves. The one thing I have really learned from my education I have taught myself and that is that no one knows what is going on including me. That is one of the most educational principles ever. There are theories and best guesses etc. but we are a flawed species in many ways and we should never be so arrogant as to think that we are even close to really getting 'it' if in fact there is an 'it' to get. The most interesting class I ever took in high school was a theory of knowledge class and that was only because I was in IB. I think every student should be presented with the fact that we really don't 'know' and anyone who tells you that they really do is lying. As far as home schooling is concerned I see it as being just like public education it can be good or bad, I do see many more benfits in properly done public education but there is room for both. I think the question isn't what method we should use but what should our goals be, and are we meeting them. Thanx for reading.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:36 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
David_B_Thompson

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Okay, I've already dealt with quite a few of these arguments!

My list is not a complete list.

Can I name one person of note who was home educated within the last 25 years? Yes. Christopher Paolini. Who is he?

Here's an article about his first book:
"ALFRED A. KNOPF BOOKS FOR YOUNG READERS ACQUIRES WORLD RIGHTS
TO PUBLISH FANTASY TRILOGY BY NINETEEN-YEAR-OLD CHRISTOPHER PAOLINI

The Inheritance Trilogy: Book One, Eragon, Written by Paolini at Fifteen

New York, NY (December 12, 2002)óAlfred A. Knopf Books for Young Readers, an imprint of Random House Childrenís Books, has acquired world publication rights to Inheritance, a sweeping fantasy trilogy by nineteen-year-old Christopher Paolini. Paolini began writing Eragon, the first book in the trilogy, when he graduated high school at fifteen and, with the help of his family, self-published the book in February of this year. The trilogy was acquired from Simon Lipskar at Writers House and will be edited by Knopf editor Michelle Frey. Eragon is slated for publication in September 2003. Paolini is currently at work on Eldest, the second installment in the trilogy."

No, you've probably never heard of him, but he's succeeding as a writer!

One thing you've missed when looking for people like CEOs of major corporations who were homeschooled within the past 25 years is that home educators tend to be entrepreneurs. That means that many will not hire into a major corporation, rather, they will start their own business. The last time I checked, most huge and successful businesses took a while to become huge and successful!

I know of several people who were home educated a little farther back, when home education was rare. (Another thing you forgot, home education used to be illegal in many places. In my state, for example, home education was illegal until sometime in the 80's) Among these home educated people stands at least one Nobel prize winner, not to mention the Pulitzer prize founder!

Home educators in government today? I'll have to be honest, I'm not sure, though I can point you to many members of the government who definitely support home education! I would agree that you're probably right, there are most likely no home educated people in the House, Senate, or any other part of the government. Why? Because, as I said before, home education has only been legal for several years! I happen to know some people who are likely to end up getting themselves elected! Just wait a few years!

Has anyone been listening? It doesn't matter how well educated the parents are!!! If they can teach their child to read, write, do basic arithmetic, and how to do research, (maybe, I don't ever recall my parents teaching me a thing about research, but I can research anything I want to, and I do too) then the child will be on his\her way!

There' a big difference between appendicitis and education! Appendicitis requires the attention of a "trained professional", (although that's no guarantee) because no one without a medical background is qualified to perform an appendectomy.
Education, on the other hand, is a different matter. If the parent can read and get their hands on a reading curriculum, (trust me, very easy!) they're qualified!

Fallingup, I'll deal with the design of public schools in a minute.

First, in the area of worldview, there is no neutral! That means that if schools don't teach Christianity, they teach Atheism! And that's exactly what they do! I have plenty of evidence here, but I'm not going to waste the time presenting it, because it's off the point.

You're assuming a lot when you say that "when a white kid is homeschooled, he/she will never interact with black kids or with asians or any other race." In fact, you're wrong! I'm home educated, and yes, I interact with people of different color than myself.

"i am going to know A LOT more about history because i am studying it in college. common sense will tell anyone that if you study a course, you will get smarter at it." Sure you'll get better at the course, but I didn't say a word about the course, I said history and reality! Who writes those college courses by the way? Primarily atheists who refuse to allow for God's intervention, without which, in case you didn't know, we wouldn't exist as a nation!

You want an example? I'll give you an example! What do your textbooks teach about Jesus? Do they even mention Him? Most likely, they mention Him as a mere myth, ignoring the fact that Jesus Christ's death burial and resurrection are solid historical facts! Or they may not mention Him at all, which is a serious error, since His ministry and impact are purely historical!

Hereís another example: George Washington, and the rest of the founders too for that matter.  Your textbooks claim that our Founding Fathers were atheists and immoral men doesnít it?  (Most do)  Thatís false!  Donít bother arguing with me on that one here, go to the ďFounding FathersĒ debates (if you havenít already)  and check it out.  Iíll post if I have time.

How about your list? Home education hasn't been legal for that long you know!
"but according to you, all the people on this list are dumb because they were not home schooled". Wrong! I never said or suggested that someone who was public schooled was dumb! I said that they had to fight harder to succeed! By the way, do you happen to know President Bush's stand on home education? Take a look at this letter he wrote:

"Dear Home-school Mom,
Educating our children is the most important thing we, as a nation, will ever do, and we must do it right. Education, in every form, must be concerned primarily with results. Home education has shown those results. Research shows that children taught at home consistently score higher on national standardized tests of reading, math and language skills.

In Texas we viewed home-schooling as something to be respected and protected - respected for the energy and commitment of parents; protected from the interference of government. I will fight for parents everywhere to have more choice and to be able to play a larger role in the education of their children.

Although some have called home-schooling a "a non-traditional" approach to education, the idea goes way back and is mentioned in Proverbs: "Hear, my son, your father's instruction. And do not forsake your mother's teaching." That's about as traditional as it gets.

As president I will work to protect and preserve this noble tradition in America.

George W. Bush"

Wonder where he got those ideas!

Now, back to your first paragraph.

How do I know that public education was not designed to promote democracy?
Democracy is only possible if everyone thinks for themselves. Here's an excerpt from the first mission statement of John D. Rockefellerís General Education Board: (In 1906. Rockefeller was one of the four founders of modern schooling)

"In our dreams...people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple...we will organize children...and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way."

"Yield" ourselves "with perfect docility" to someone else's "molding hands"? What!? That's not democracy!

How about this, from John Taylor Gatto: (He doesn't talk much about home education, by the way, and doesn't profit at all if you pull your kids out of public school)

"Take them one by one and savor each. Designing Education, produced by the Education Department, redefined the term "education" after the Prussian fashion as "a means to achieve important economic and social goals of a national character." State education agencies would henceforth act as on-site federal enforcers, ensuring the compliance of local schools with central directives. Each state education department was assigned the task of becoming "an agent of change" and advised to "lose its independent identity as well as its authority," in order to "form a partnership with the federal government."

The second document, the gigantic Behavioral Science Teacher Education Project, outlined teaching reforms to be forced on the country after 1967. If you ever want to hunt this thing down, it bears the U.S. Office of Education Contract Number OEC-0-9-320424-4042 (B10). The document sets out clearly the intentions of its creatorsónothing less than "impersonal manipulation" through schooling of a future America in which "few will be able to maintain control over their opinions," an America in which "each individual receives at birth a multi-purpose identification number" which enables employers and other controllers to keep track of underlings and to expose them to direct or subliminal influence when necessary. Readers learned that "chemical experimentation" on minors would be normal procedure in this post-1967 world, a pointed foreshadowing of the massive Ritalin interventions which now accompany the practice of forced schooling.

The Behavioral Science Teacher Education Project identified the future as one "in which a small elite" will control all important matters, one where participatory democracy will largely disappear. Children are made to see, through school experiences, that their classmates are so cruel and irresponsible, so inadequate to the task of self-discipline, and so ignorant they need to be controlled and regulated for societyís good. Under such a logical regime, school terror can only be regarded as good advertising. It is sobering to think of mass schooling as a vast demonstration project of human inadequacy, but that is at least one of its functions."

Did you catch that? He quoted from these documents, which were written by the people behind public schooling!

Is Gatto biased? Sure! He spent thirty years in the public school system as a teacher! Remember, he was awarded the New York City and New York State Teacher of the Year Award! That, by the way, is when he quit! Read what he wrote when he announced that he was quitting:

"Government schooling is the most radical adventure in history. It kills the family by monopolizing the best times of childhood and by teaching disrespect for home and parents. The whole blueprint of school procedure is Egyptian, not Greek or Roman. It grows from the theological idea that human value is a scarce thing, represented symbolically by the narrow peak of a pyramid.
That idea passed into American history through the Puritans. It found its "scientific" presentation in the bell curve, along which talent supposedly apportions itself by some Iron Law of Biology. Itís a religious notion, School is its church. I offer rituals to keep heresy at bay. I provide documentation to justify the heavenly pyramid.

Socrates foresaw if teaching became a formal profession, something like this would happen. Professional interest is served by making what is easy to do seem hard; by subordinating the laity to the priesthood. School is too vital a jobs-project, contract giver and protector of the social order to allow itself to be "re-formed." It has political allies to guard its marches, thatís why reforms come and go without changing much. Even reformers canít imagine school much different.

David learns to read at age four; Rachel, at age nine: In normal development, when both are 13, you canít tell which one learned firstóthe five-year spread means nothing at all. But in school I label Rachel "learning disabled" and slow David down a bit, too. For a paycheck, I adjust David to depend on me to tell him when to go and stop. He wonít outgrow that dependency. I identify Rachel as discount merchandise, "special education" fodder. Sheíll be locked in her place forever.

In 30 years of teaching kids rich and poor I almost never met a learning disabled child; hardly ever met a gifted and talented one either. Like all school categories, these are sacred myths, created by human imagination. They derive from questionable values we never examine because they preserve the temple of schooling.

Thatís the secret behind short-answer tests, bells, uniform time blocks, age grading, standardization, and all the rest of the school religion punishing our nation. There isnít a right way to become educated; there are as many ways as fingerprints. We donít need state-certified teachers to make education happenóthat probably guarantees it wonít.

How much more evidence is necessary? Good schools donít need more money or a longer year; they need real free-market choices, variety that speaks to every need and runs risks. We donít need a national curriculum or national testing either. Both initiatives arise from ignorance of how people learn or deliberate indifference to it. I canít teach this way any longer. If you hear of a job where I donít have to hurt kids to make a living, let me know. Come fall Iíll be looking for work."

There's plenty more evidence, by the way. Read Gatto's "The Underground History of American Education", then try to refute it!

You don't have to worry about bias. Gatto quotes from quite a few documents written by the founders and chief supporters of public schooling, as well a government documents. Read it for yourself, then make your decision based on the evidence!


Also, it has not been my intention to insult anyone here. I apologize if I have. My goal here is to get the truth out. Read Gatto's book, then make your own decision. Don't let yourself be taken in by modern forced schooling. Take an honest look at the evidence, and act accordingly.

Sorry I've gone on for so long! Thanks for reading!

God bless!



-------
David B. Thompson


God
Bless
America!!!
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 07:38 AM on January 4, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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so david, you can only think of one single home schooled person of note in the last 25 years? that doesnt sound too good to me. cuz i can think of thousands of public schooled students who have been extremely successful


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:09 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
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There needs to be a standard set for all public schools and teachers shouldn't give their views as fact.

I've got a lot of liberal teachers giving liberal views as fact, and they won't allow any argument on it.

There's no discussion of religion in science. I think I'd call evolution a religion, as there isn't really isn't any more proof that it happened than that creation happened. It's belief... Science teacher stands up there sayinng things: "I'm not going to tell you that this didn't happen, because it did happen, folks."

"There are warehouses full of evidence that this happened." (I've seen a lot of evidence that it didn't...)

Then there's no discussion allowed on anything. There aren't any debate or religion classes, either. Shouldn't there be other viewpoints that we're allowed to learn about? Shouldn't we be allowed to discuss things more often? Should teachers be allowed to spout their own political views as fact?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:38 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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it is against the law in my state to teach evolution as "fact". it must be taught as "theory"


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 2:13 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
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My science teacher is evil


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 3:44 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i didnt know you were still in school...how old are you?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:54 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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"That means that if schools don't teach Christianity, they teach Atheism!"

"Primarily atheists who refuse to allow for God's intervention, without which, in case you didn't know, we wouldn't exist as a nation!"

Both of these statements are utterly ridiculous and have no basis in fact.  But they do show the mind set of most home schoolers and why they want to isolate themselves from the real world.  They mostly have fanatical religious beliefs that are rightly dismissed by society in general as being wrong.  Many teachers in the public school system are just as religious as any homeschooler, many of them are probably more christian in their attitudes towards helping others than most homeschoolers.  Just take falling for example, he is probably the best christian to post on this site and he is going to be a teacher.  So according to David he will be teaching atheism.  How silly.

Most homeschoolers try way to hard to justify the poor decision their parents made in schooling them at home.  It is sad to watch the way the must defend homeschooling as if their whole life depends upon validating the poor decision made by their parents.  Many will do well despite the bad decision their parents made.  But how much better could they have done in a more real academic setting.  Education involves working with others and learning to deal with the real world.  You can't get that sitting at the kitchen table with your mommy.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 07:45 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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"You don't have to worry about bias."

Saying that about John Gatto is a joke.  Just do a search on the internet and you will see most of his writing is based on his right wing religious beliefs.  To say he is not biased is ridiculous.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 07:56 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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Well, I wish "guest" would register...as for homeschool, what have you got agaist it? I got to be around other kids in my homeschool group (a group of homeschooled families that helped each other) and after/before school. I think any problems that I MIGHT have had dealing with other people would have come from being an only child.


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Posts: 134 | Posted: 09:26 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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I'd rather not say how old I was. Let's just say you're probably a lot older.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:46 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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i'm only 18


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:20 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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Fine, just older :P


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:26 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
    
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