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forfunt1

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Hey canadian kid, do a little more reading, and see if you can come up with a question that makes sense to ask, and I'll try to answer it.

In case you can't figure out what I am saying... I'll give you a hint:

Guns are a crime. Any action involving a firearm is a crime. Any person that owns a firearm is selfish, week, idiotic, and afraid; any person that uses a firearm is causing suffering that no caring, kind-hearted person would ever inflict.

If some confused-insane people cannot resolve their differences in reasonable, peaceful fashion, they are a liability to free people, and belong in society, isolated from the living world. If insane people were quarantined into society, and kept apart from free people, they could blow themselves away with whatever evil devices they wished; unfortunately, society has infected almost the entire world, and now psychopaths are running rampant everywhere, leaving death and destruction in their wake. Why? Because they are numb enough to argue that they have the freedom to have guns, to shoot anything at anytime for any reason, and that their freedom to do so is legally protected. Guns/gun owners/gun users pervert the magic words in their defense (and you may notice that society has no shortage of prostitutes willing to act out on anybody's behalf in court) and  make a bad-joke out of constitutional/common law.

People chose to have guns as a matter of privilege, and privilege is a specific way a person wants or expects a right to manifest, therefor people are inclined to argue second amendment protection for the privilege of gun ownership, and though they are only being reasonable idiots, it is impossible to argue that firearms are not reasonably a form of 'arms'. Amerikkka is full of evil people that are afraid of their own shadows, these people will not give up their guns, no matter how one tries to tell them they are hurting everyone (and helping nobody), they insist that the second amendment statement 'keep and bear arms' includes firearms, and though they are correct (legally) they are just using the constitution as permission to be heartless, murderous, amerikkkans.

I don't care what the legal status of firearms is; I don't keep or bear guns (or bombs) because i am honest, and i care about all life.

(Edited by forfunt1 7/11/2008 at 10:00 PM).


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 9:42 PM on July 11, 2008 | IP
Stunt_Pirate

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iangb,
That link shows that removing guns from criminals reduces gun crime, which is something that I have never argued against doing. Criminals should not have guns. You have not shown any valid evidence that gun laws that restrict citizens who are not criminals from owning guns reduces gun crime.

It is not common sense to say that if you can't defend yourself you won't get hurt. That is your argument and since it has nothing to back it up it is not a valid reason to remove a right.  
 


Posts: 38 | Posted: 11:07 PM on July 13, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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I understand that your comment was meant for iangb, but i had to point out some flaws in you language.

Any person with a gun is a criminal. Actually, as I see it, there is only one criminal in reality, and that is a person with a gun. Saying that criminals should not have guns is like saying cars should not have wheels... anyway, if you could honestly see the world outside your head, you would recognize that ALL guns should be destroyed.

Rights cannot be 'removed'. I am not sure how you learned otherwise, but you are mistaken in thinking there is any possible argument, as opposed to your example, that could present valid reason in order to 'remove a right'. I am sure you are just another misinformed amerikan, and your confusion is not uncommon, still it is sad none the less.

If you need a little help understanding, allow me to clarify; Individual entitlement to privileged status may be suspended or possibly 'removed' by the other, agency, society, institution, entity, etc., from which the individual consents to receive privilege. Expressed or implied in any transaction/exchange of privilege is an agreement by both parties to establish and adhere to rule(s) determining qualification for participation in the market of privilege, rule(s) governing the distribution of privilege, and rule(s) establishing incentive for participants to make rule(s) agreeable to all parties involved and that all parties agree to following the rule(s). When individuals chose to rule their privilege with purely selfish interests (such as for security, protection, profit, etc.) they void the expressed or implied contract of interest to mutual, or common, benefit, and lose or have revoked (maybe removed) their eligibility to participate in matters concerning the establishment and exchange of privilege.

This whole system is of privilege conceived of by right; it is how people chose to act given the freedom to act in anyway. Just because rights can be used to infinite ends, doesn't mean an individual needs to try and pursue all means to every end. For example, having recognized that humans have a seemingly infinite potential to design and build weapons of infinite variety, doesn't excuse our disregard the consequences of having them now, but it somehow creates an appetite in men for destruction. Society has used its infinite potential to invent guns; society takes advantage of the fact that for the infinite variety found in the character of human kind, there are people insane enough to use them (just like with nuclear weapons, it is not only sad that there was a fool willing to design and make them, there were idiots waiting in line to use them).


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 4:48 PM on July 14, 2008 | IP
SilverStar

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How is a gun a crime? Isn't a gun an inanimate object, and for all of us who like to put holes in targets setup in our back yard, how is target shooting  a crime? WHat about the person that isn't in the condition to take on a 250 assailant in their home that has the intention of killing them, what are they to do, beg their assailant to give them mercy?


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Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 10:49 PM on July 16, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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It seems you have abandoned all your senses...
It must suck to live in a world with so much fear...
But hey, have it your way.

(Edited by forfunt1 7/17/2008 at 9:45 PM).


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 9:20 PM on July 17, 2008 | IP
Jabba66

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Quote from forfunt1 at 9:20 PM on July 17, 2008 :
It seems you have abandoned all your senses...
It must suck to live in a world with so much fear...
But hey, have it your way.

(Edited by forfunt1 7/17/2008 at 9:45 PM).


And now, we all see your somewhat baseless accusation that gun owners are cowards.  

You say I have a gun because I'm afraid of a criminal breaking into my home.

I have a fire extinquisher in my house, and i keep it handy and full.  Does that mean that I'm afraid that my house will burn to the ground if I don't have it?  Of course not.  I'm just prepared for a fire in case it happens, as I am prepared for a home invader in case one strikes.





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Posts: 38 | Posted: 6:47 PM on July 28, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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Gun owners are cowards... I have met many in my lifetime, and there is a great deal of content posted to this forum by gun owners; I call it as i see it.


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 10:03 PM on July 28, 2008 | IP
Stunt_Pirate

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forfunt has already admitted to being mentally disabled, try not to upset him Jabba...
 


Posts: 38 | Posted: 04:58 AM on July 29, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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I also wet my bed :-(


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 10:25 PM on July 29, 2008 | IP
Jabba66

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Quote from forfunt1 at 10:03 PM on July 28, 2008 :
Gun owners are cowards... I have met many in my lifetime, and there is a great deal of content posted to this forum by gun owners; I call it as i see it.


I have already debunked this point.  Now you cannot respond to it without proving me wrong.




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Posts: 38 | Posted: 9:22 PM on July 30, 2008 | IP
Jabba66

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Quote from forfunt1 at 10:25 PM on July 29, 2008 :
I also wet my bed :-(



I have noticed on several occasions, that when you have no counter-argument, you resort to corny, off-topic wisecracks that nobody (except for you) is amused by.  


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Posts: 38 | Posted: 9:29 PM on July 30, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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and I am amused :-)


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 10:48 PM on July 30, 2008 | IP
Jabba66

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Quote from forfunt1 at 10:48 PM on July 30, 2008 :
and I am amused :-)



As usual, you resorted to stupid comments after all of your arguments were totally debunked.


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Posts: 38 | Posted: 3:22 PM on July 31, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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yep. Have it your way :-) you are correct, and I have no guns... hey if you like you can exercise your right to bear arms by having guns, and you can run around shooting anything and anyone you want. Frankly, I don't give a damn what happens to you as a result, seeing as how I tried to talk some sense into you.

Like I've said before, I should, and I will, leave you to die by your own devices.

Have fun; I give up ;-)


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 11:18 PM on July 31, 2008 | IP
Jabba66

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Quote from forfunt1 at 11:18 PM on July 31, 2008 :
yep. Have it your way :-) you are correct, and I have no guns...hey if you like you can exercise your right to bear arms by having guns, and you can run around shooting anything and anyone you want.


I have heard you use this baseless argument many times, yet you have not yet proven why a gun owner would be more tempted to do this than anyone else.

Frankly, I don't give a damn what happens to you as a result, seeing as how I tried to talk some sense into you.


Your method of "talking sense" into someone is strange.  You could not be an advertiser, I could tell you that.  You won't convince your views on anyone by continually insulting them.

Like I've said before, I should, and I will, leave you to die by your own devices.


You cannot prove that most gun owners are shot by their own devices.

Have fun; I give up ;-)


While I'm not fond of your debating style, I respect a guy that knows when to shut up.  Congratulations.



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Posts: 38 | Posted: 04:32 AM on August 1, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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oh gee, thanx ;-)


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 11:31 AM on August 2, 2008 | IP
Jabba66

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Quote from forfunt1 at 11:31 AM on August 2, 2008 :
oh gee, thanx ;-)



First off, I though you gave up.  Second, you haven't addressed my point.


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Posts: 38 | Posted: 8:46 PM on August 21, 2008 | IP
USSOCOM

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"Americans need never fear their government
because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the
people of almost every other nation." - James Madison

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the
whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially
when young, how to use them." - Richard Henry Lee Founding Father

"I believe there are more instances of the
abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of
those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison


Go ahead, hit them with your best shot...
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 08:43 AM on August 22, 2008 | IP
USSOCOM

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Or better yet, lets get rid of our guns because our good friend Hitler said we should!

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." - Adolph Hitler, 1935.

Who's ready to follow?

Ya know, forfunt, in nature, fear keeps things alive. And perhaps, one might say, fear is the feeling of being alive. There's no doubt that we have very different view points, but the least that one could do in an argument is to not be soo narrow minded that he can't see anything else.
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 08:54 AM on August 22, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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USSOCOM,

Other peoples' words are easy to use; What have you to say for your self?

Do you really believe that load of crap about fear keeping things alive? How did you come to this conclusion? Is this something you were taught in school? If so, have you wondered what motive a person would have in teaching you this?

Perhaps you were lied to, or intentionally misinformed, so that your thoughts and actions would favor the artificial necessity of firearms.

You ask who is ready to follow, and all I see from your regurgitation of dead people's words, and pro-gun propaganda, is that you are a follower... But of whom? Fear-mongers? If so, how pathetic.

And where other than to your death shall you be lead? My guess is hell on earth.

(Edited by forfunt1 8/28/2008 at 05:21 AM).


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 6:39 PM on August 27, 2008 | IP
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Oh come on, you cannot be so completely stupid as to not realize that fear is a natural survival response in every single living thing. It's biology. The more you post the more I think you can't comprehend the discussion.

For everyone else, he is obviously posting to try and get a reaction out of you. He is immature enough to think that having the last word in an argument, however stupid those words may be, is "winning." Our points have already been made, forfunt clearly does not have an argument against them. Debate over, in my book. Unless someone else actually posts an argument, I'm going to stop feeding the troll and I would advise you do the same. You can't argue with stupid.
 


Posts: 38 | Posted: 10:45 PM on August 27, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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Rationalize your fear all you like, but you are mistaken if you claim fear is natural; biological means the same as artificial, made-real, thought-of, intellectual from inception.

Your accusation that I "can't comprehend" is indicative of your unwillingness or inaptitude to make sense of expression.

I have been consistent; I have made my points clearly as far as how I feel. Has anyone else? As far as I see, there are plenty of individuals that will argue semantics, and that is all fine and dandy, but so far I have not been told how any body else feels. It might be important to refine logic in order to form an understanding, but where does that lead? I'm only concerned with what is meant if no feeling is expressed. Is anything really communicated when an individual relies only on their mind to repeat words, in order, by rule?

Is there any person participating in this forum that really cares about what is happening to life as consequence of humans keeping and bearing firearms? I have no doubt there are people with opinions, and I really couldn't give a damn about those opinions; I am curious about how people feel.

I have made myself clear: guns/firearms are crimes against all life. Any person that keeps or bears a firearm is a criminal. There is no justification for the invention, production, or use of firearms. Firearms make justice just a word, and honor just a thing of the past.

Is there anybody that will tell me how they honestly feel about guns?

Oh, hey stunt_pirate, one can argue with stupid, it just isn't very easy to make any statements or come to any understandings, and it sure as hell is not easy to make any sense.

(Edited by forfunt1 8/28/2008 at 04:01 AM).


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 03:57 AM on August 28, 2008 | IP
racerba

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forfunt1,
Yes, I fear for my life and the lives of those I love.  I will use any means possible to protect those lives.  Call me a coward if you must, but a coward, I'm not.  Cowards live in denial and hide from conflicts.  I will face adversaries with the best weapon I can.  At the present time, it is a gun.  A gun is the best possible weapon to ensure my survival.  Having a gun does not mean I will go out and shoot up everything in my environment.  Those that do are criminals.  Criminals use guns as a tool for their trade.  I use a gun as a toll for survival.  Why would you choose to let the criminals have the upper hand?  You may think you will never be confronted by a criminal.  You may be right.  What if you were wrong?

(Edited by racerba 8/28/2008 at 3:08 PM).
 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 3:07 PM on August 28, 2008 | IP
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"...any person that uses a firearm is causing suffering that no caring, kind-hearted person would ever inflict. "

You do not know the heart of all the people using firearms.  So all police officers are do not care and are not kind-hearted people?

"If some confused-insane people cannot resolve their differences in reasonable, peaceful fashion,..."

What about criminals intent on killing you?  Can you resolve that problem peacefully?

"I don't keep or bear guns (or bombs) because i am honest, and i care about all life"

So people who own guns are not honest and don't care about all life?

(Edited by racerba 8/28/2008 at 3:15 PM).
 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 3:14 PM on August 28, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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Pete and repeat sat on a wall, Pete fell off and who was left?

The best possible weapon you can face your adversaries with is your heart; feel and be felt, and remind your self and your enemies that everyone suffers and survives the same fate.

How much suffering do you want to cause? What is your excuse?

(Edited by forfunt1 8/29/2008 at 7:38 PM).


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 05:08 AM on August 29, 2008 | IP
racerba

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Quote from forfunt1 at 05:08 AM on August 29, 2008 :
Pete and repeat sat on a wall, Pete fell off and who was left?

The best possible weapon you can face your adversaries with is your heart; feel and be felt, and remind your self and your enemies that everyone suffers and survives the same fate.

How much suffering do you want to cause? What is your excuse?

(Edited by forfunt1 8/29/2008 at 7:38 PM).

I don't need excuses.  I do not cause any suffering with my guns.  What's your excuse to cause suffering to those who wants to own guns?  Yes, I will face my adversaries with my heart...right behind my gun.


 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 1:25 PM on September 2, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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racerba,

You have the attitude of a college educated american, but your maturity is about that of a six-year old... I guess you seem pretty damn normal to me... how sad.


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 9:20 PM on September 2, 2008 | IP
racerba

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Quote from forfunt1 at 9:20 PM on September 2, 2008 :
You have the attitude of a college educated american, but your maturity is about that of a six-year old... I guess you seem pretty damn normal to me... how sad.

Funny, you appear to also be as matured as a six year old, but with an education of a first grader.


 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 2:00 PM on September 3, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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racerba,

Are my observations insulting?

It's strange, I think you are pretty close to the mark as far as my maturity, but I honestly feel like my education ended at third grade; that is when I got tired and frustrated with school and really stopped caring.

It seems to me like you take a lot more things seriously then I do... I guess that is how I see you as a college educated person. For all I know though, I'm wrong more often than I am right.

(Edited by forfunt1 9/4/2008 at 04:35 AM).


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 04:29 AM on September 4, 2008 | IP
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I'll ask it here, too.
Forfunt, would you kill someone to keep yourself or your family from being murdered?
 


Posts: 38 | Posted: 11:50 AM on September 8, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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Stunt_Pirate,

This is a good opportunity for me to let my actions speak, instead of my words. I have not killed someone in order to prevent my death or the death of a member of my family.

If I had done so, or had the intentions of doing so, I would be a hypocrite; How does it make any sense to kill a family member in order to save the life of a family member? There is more going on in this world then you seem to think.

It seems silly, actually insane, for me to fear uncertainties and to try and be prepared for what I think might happen.

(Edited by forfunt1 9/9/2008 at 04:13 AM).


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 9:18 PM on September 8, 2008 | IP
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Your actions do not matter, I haven't killed anyone either.

I will make the question more specific, so you can't avoid it.

For this scenario I am only talking about immediate family, those you share a blood relation too. Mother, father, brother, sister, wife, child (and not in the 'everyone is my brother and sister' sense, your actual genetic relatives).

If one of those members of your family was going to be murdered, by which I mean someone is going to end their lives for no reason other than a twisted desire to kill them, would you act to stop it? Would you attempt to stop them? If yes, how would you attempt to stop them?
 

Now since you won't actually answer my question, because it will ruin your argument, I will answer for you. Of course you would try to stop that person. There are few people who would not act to prevent harm to someone they love. The differance would be that you would be unable to stop an armed assailant and I choose to even the odds.


It is silly to be prepared for something that might happen? Then I take it you don't save money? Saving money is silly, after all, you only 'might' need it at some point. Preparing for possibilities is not fear. Even animals store food for the winter, build shelters to protect from bad weather that 'might' happen. Evolution has shown us that only those things that are adapted to handle the eventualities of life survive.

 


Posts: 38 | Posted: 11:01 PM on September 15, 2008 | IP
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Quote from Stunt_Pirate at 11:01 PM on September 15, 2008 :
It is silly to be prepared for something that might happen? Then I take it you don't save money? Saving money is silly, after all, you only 'might' need it at some point. Preparing for possibilities is not fear. Even animals store food for the winter, build shelters to protect from bad weather that 'might' happen. Evolution has shown us that only those things that are adapted to handle the eventualities of life survive.


And forfunt doesn't drive around with a spare tire, or have a fire alarm in the house, or have an umbrella or extra food in the house or ...

 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 4:51 PM on September 19, 2008 | IP
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Stunt_Pirate,

So, actions don't matter? This statement is a product of the obsolete 20th-century american mind. I hope you stop thinking this way, for the sake of everyone that has to live with you.

Did I not make my answer 'specific enough'?

You might like to think that you have only a limited number of people in your life worth caring about; whatever helps you sleep at night.

I do not appreciate you trying to answer for me, but I can see why you do. I'm not agreeable with your 'friends and enemies' or 'cops and robbers' mentality, and you see the need to bring me around to your limited way of thinking. Oh, and I see that what you mean by me not 'actually answering' your question, is that you do not expect me to answer in a way that will reinforce your argument. I'm not sure how my answer would ruin my argument, unless you expect me to fall for one of your clever word tricks ;-) I am curious to see how I would answer any other questions you have, so I propose we make an arrangement where you ask a question, then I answer, and then you tell me how my answer is not acceptable and give me the correct version. I'm guessing you are only emulating the educators you've experienced in the past, and I bet you were never told that it is a hazardous way (at best) of making conversation.

I see insanity as doing the same things over and over again because the same results are expected; like a skipping record.

There is no comparison  between preparation (for possibilities) and readiness (for sensitivity). Your words make the impression on me that you are looking at the world through your minds eye, and neglecting your senses, or refusing outright to feel.


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Posts: 163 | Posted: 09:14 AM on September 21, 2008 | IP
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You stated that your actions spoke louder than words and that you had not killed anyone with a gun. That is not an action, it isn't even inaction, that is the absence of an action. You not having done something says nothing about how you view the world or what your opinion on the topic is.

I have never skydived.

What does that say about my opinion of skydiving? Have I had the opportunity to skydive? Do I hate skydiving? Do I want to go skydiving? It says nothing. Hence that "action" would not matter. Had I said, "I would never skydive, as I find it scary that the only thing between falling to my death and landing safely is a bit of canvas," I would have given you an idea of how I view the world.

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To be more clear on how you view the world, I want to ask a couple of straightforward questions. I hope you actually address these ones as I am genuinely curious as to how you think.

Is there such thing as right and wrong?


If there is, is someone killing another person wrong?

If killing is wrong, is someone stopping a person from killing right?

If stopping a person from killing is right, at what point would stopping them from killing become wrong?


You have said that the people who use guns deserve to die by a gun.

If there is a person who intentionally uses a gun to kill people at random, what would you consider that person (You have said you don't believe in criminals, so what would you label this type of person as)?

If that person was directly in front of you and you knew that they were going to kill someone  with a gun, what would you do, if anything, to prevent it?

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I will give you my answers to give you an idea of what I would consider an actual response to the questions.

Is there such thing as right and wrong?

I believe that there is, in fact, things that can be considered right and things that can be considered wrong. For example,  I believe that helping other people is the right thing to do. I think that I have been blessed with a good life and I try to help those people who are struggling more than I am. I believe that protecting nature is the right thing to do. I think we have a responsibility for this planet and the creatures on it.

If there is, is someone killing another person wrong?

I believe that life is the most precious thing we have. I think that someone taking the life of another human is reprehensible. I don't think that war is good. I am not naive enough to think that there will ever be a world without war, but I think we should work towards that goal as best we can.

If killing is wrong, is someone stopping a person from killing right?

I think that if faced with a situation where a fellow human being is being victimized and unable to defend themselves, I have a responsibility to protect that person. There are people in this world who prey upon people weaker than they are and people who will kill without provocation. I think that when faced with a person like that, their life is worth less than their victim's life.

If stopping a person from killing is right, at what point would stopping them from killing become wrong?

I believe that any and all means should be exhausted in stopping the death of another person at the hands of a killer before lethal force is considered. That exhaustion of other options may come faster if the person's life is in imminent danger. I do not think that any material thing is worth more than a human life and I would never consider taking a human life unless I had no other choice to prevent either my murder or the murder of another person.

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On a seperate note, from what I have read of your posts, this is my opinion of who you are:

You equate thinking with being unaware. You like to think that other people who do not share your opinions are less in tune with the world, limited with how they see it. If they could see the world like you, they would agree with you.

You close yourself off to the idea that even those who experience the same things you do could view, sense and feel them differently.

Because you cannot express your ideas through words and others are able to, you assume that your ideas are somehow harder to express. You place the fault with other people, they are unable to understand you because language is not enough. They are limited and you are not.

You place fault with logic when logic betrays how you think. When people show you how your arguments are logically wrong, you blame logic and not your arguments. When coherent explanations do not help your case you disregard them and disregard anyone who points out you statements incoherency.

You think that because you did not continue in school, there is nothing more to learn. You think that structured learning eliminates the ability to generate new ideas. Because you have no experience with college you consider it a negative that other people go as a way to make yourself feel superior.

You disregard things that do not fit with how you see the world rather than adapting your world view with new information. Anything new is automatically wrong. You cannot accept that other people know more than you, are more intelligent than you and are more in touch with the world than you are.

Your ego is amazingly large and I have yet to see what it is based on.


 


Posts: 38 | Posted: 03:18 AM on September 22, 2008 | IP
forfunt1

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Stunt_Pirate,

You seem to look at action as an 'all or nothing'; I don't see action as such. I see no difference between the opinions of mind for things it does remember doing and those things it can only imagine; opinions are opinions, nothing more, and never of any worth.

If you are paying attention, you will see that I am sharing my vision of the world with you, and doing my best (even though words frustrate me) to be honest.

As to you questions, I can only hazard to answer the first; No

I have no answers to any of your other questions.

I have made many statements in this forum, and many others, and I will not review them in order to answer questions that have nothing to do with what I mean to say.

I will however explain a little further about the comment you brought to attention concerning those people that use guns to kill and whether they deserve to die by guns. In the interests of being just and fair, it is the responsibility of an individual to suffer for all the suffering they cause; If society does not work this way, there will be people that suffer for all injustice (the poor and innocent) and there will be people that run and hide from the consequences of their actions (the powerful, self-righteous, elite), and there will be short-sighted children (blinded by the word) able to kill without ever feeling alive, only serving to reinforce the social structure of elite vs. innocent.

I will not stop a person from shooting another person, even if I step in the way to take the bullet, the person that pulled the trigger is still guilty, and must still suffer. If the gun was not an option for the would be shooter, I would not have to chose whether to stop the bullet from hitting myself or the other people around. I have made a comment in the past about how the people that keep or use guns are the only criminals in society, but I have to clarify this a little better because i feel it might be misleading. There is no such thing as a criminal, however, the word was not just made up to talk about nothing; the word criminal is a mnemonic for the person that runs from the consequence of their actions by intentionally confusing, or willing for the misdirection of justice.

So, I guess what I really mean is that a person that chooses to fire their gun at another person, is going to have a gun fired at them; this is not negotiable, it is karmic. A person that cannot realize the failure of justice without this trans-action, or reciprocal-response-ability, is in for a very unpleasant 'I told you so' when the bullets start flying their way.


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-yo
 


Posts: 163 | Posted: 9:48 PM on September 24, 2008 | IP
Stunt_Pirate

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That is why I said your answer would prove my point.

First, since you don't believe in right or wrong, you have no argument against guns. They cannot be wrong, as you do not believe that something can fall into either category. If you do, in fact, believe in right and wrong, you can try again at the other questions.

As for the rest of your response, I agree with you.  

People should suffer for the suffering they cause. There is a term for that, it is called the justice system and the people that cause suffering are called criminals.

The word criminal obviously does mean something. There are laws and people who break those laws are criminals. You cannot simply disbelieve and have the legal system vanish. Since you are clearly posting on this site and not in jail, I'm going to assume you know there are laws that you have to obey.

If a person chooses to fire their gun at an innocent person where I have the ability to stop it, they are going to have a gun fired at them, my gun. As you said, it's non-negotiable. I will do what I can to stop people from committing injustice and causing suffering for innocent people.  
 


Posts: 38 | Posted: 1:13 PM on September 26, 2008 | IP
Jabba66

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Quote from forfunt1 at 05:08 AM on August 29, 2008 :
Pete and repeat sat on a wall, Pete fell off and who was left?

The best possible weapon you can face your adversaries with is your heart; feel and be felt, and remind your self and your enemies that everyone suffers and survives the same fate.


The best possible weapon you can use is the truth.  I see your anger, your emotion, your... desperation.  I see nothing else that's useful to you.  I see a void.  I see ignorance.  I see a lack of understanding of the matter at hand.  You have nothing on here to fight us with but your emotions - the argument they make is inevitably a hollow one.

How much suffering do you want to cause? What is your excuse?


Are you refering to the suffering that saved 2.5 million people by incedence of self-defence?  I dare you to tell me that we should ban guns when you consider the ratio of 2,500,000 compared to 102,200.  I expect you to sink to the point of saying "one is too many".  Say that about self-defence.

(Edited by forfunt1 8/29/2008 at 7:38 PM).






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Mikiyuna! Pasta mo rulya! Do bata gee mwaa tusawa!
 


Posts: 38 | Posted: 9:48 PM on September 28, 2008 | IP
scottdennis

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All you guys supporting the second, well done! I'm right there with you!


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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
(George Washington)
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 02:40 AM on October 7, 2012 | IP
WiseOne

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This is a post from a member called IceMan, I found it intriguing, thought-provoking, and sincere. I think others would benefit from reading this too. God Bless...

{Alright, I hate jumping in on heated debates but I felt I must.  Here is the Question: Do Gun ownership rates directly correlate to gun violence? It may be true that the US has the highest gun ownership per capita (88.8 guns per 100 people) the yearly death rate is 3.7 gun related homicides per 100,000 people. Compare that to the extremely high rate of 50.36/100,000 in El Salvador. El Salvador has a low gun ownership rate of only 5.8/100 due to their very strict laws requiring a locally obtained license to possess or carry a firearm in the country.Conviction for possessing an unlicensed firearm can carry a prison sentence of three to five years. Strictly governed, yet they have the highest gun crime rate in the world. On the converse, Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world (45.7 guns per 100 people) yet has one of the lowest gun related homicide rates (0.57 per 100,000!). This is due to the militia system that has been used since the founding of the Swiss Confederation in 1291.  Every boy and girl learns to use and respect a firearm from age 12 or younger. Every man between ages of 20-42 is REQUIRED to have an automatic rifle and/or semiautomatic pistol to be kept in the home. Not only is it required that you learn to shoot, it is the national pastime "Some 72,000 competitors participated in the Federal Schuetzenfest in Thun in 1995, making it the largest rifle shooting match in the world. (The American National Matches that year attracted only 4,000 shooters out of 260 million citizens.) The President of Switzerland and other dignitaries gave speeches. There was no "Secret Service" to protect them, and none was needed, although thousands of guns cluttered the assembly."(Hallbrook 1999)  Machiavelli wrote in 1532: "The Swiss are well armed and enjoy great freedom." I could give you tons of examples of this but I urge you to check this against credible sources. Look up "number of guns per capita by country", "List of countries by firearm-related death rate" and just for kicks "List of countries by intentional homicide rate". Compare these 3 tables and tell me if I'm wrong, be aware of the different columns in "firearm-related death rate" separating homicides from suicides. And in the 'just for kicks' column, take a look at how many people kill others without the use of a firearm, killers kill!
Furthermore I urge you to read an article which was published in both American AND European releases of the "Wall Street Journal" in 1999 entitled "Guns, Crime, and the Swiss by Stephen P. Halbrook, Ph.D., J.D." Here is a small excerpt from that article which I found quite intriguing-

"While the United States is victimized by embarrassing episodes of criminal degradation, the twentieth-century European experience suggests that tyrannical governments kill far more than private criminals. In 1933, the Nazis seized power via massive search-and-seizure operations for firearms against "Communists," i.e., all political opponents. In 1938, in preparation for and during the Night of the Broken Glass, they disarmed the Jews. And when the Nazis occupied Europe in 1939-41, they proclaimed the death penalty for any person who failed to surrender all firearms within 24 hours.

There may be various reasons why the Nazis did not invade Switzerland, but one of those reasons is that every Swiss man had a rifle at home. The Nazi invasion plans themselves state that, because of the Swiss gun ownership and shooting skills, that country would be difficult to conquer and occupy. The European countries occupied by the Nazis usually had strict gun controls before the war, and their registration lists facilitated confiscation of firearms and, in many cases, execution of their owners.

By being able to keep out of both world wars in part through the dissuasive factor of an armed populace, Switzerland demonstrates that possession of firearms by civilians may help prevent large numbers of deaths and even genocide. The Holocaust never came to Switzerland, the Jewish population of which was armed just like their fellow citizens. In the rest of Europe, what if there had been not just one, but two, three, many Warsaw Ghetto Uprisings?"

Guns are not the problem, it is dumb people who were never taught proper gun handling and the respect and discipline it takes to be a respectable gun owner. No matter how few guns are around, the ones that are crazy enough to commit murder will find a way to achieve their goals. Just ask yourself, WOULD A PERSON BE LIKELY TO COMMIT A VIOLENT CRIME IN A PLACE WHERE THEY KNOW EVERYONE HAS A GUN AND KNOWS HOW TO USE IT?! Just food for thought...

Don't get me wrong, I am fully an advocate for gun control. In essence though its gotta be one of two ways in order for peace: either no one has guns, or everyone has them. The unfortunate truth is that if we, as the US, want to keep dictating other countries' policies on their possession limits and restrictions of WMDs, we have to follow suit. Either we all have them, or no one does. The bad part is it is radically improbable that we could disarm the entire world completely. What happens to the ones who lay down their arms for the prospect of peace when the ones with subversive means and devious goals resurface with the few remaining weapons? OK, so we keep some guns to arm our army and keep the populace safe. What happens when a ruling class has all the weapons and the people have none? Look to history, you will see the future!

Sorry for such a long post, but this is such a delicate topic, and not easily discussed in a line or two. The only thing I will add to sum it up is this: I would love for the world to be free of all weapons and need thereof, for the world to agree that co-operation and unity is the key to peace, but this seems impossible in my lifetime. The true key to having an armed yet peaceful society is education, proper training, and guidance. Through it's portrayal in  American entertainment and news media, the gun has become a symbol of violence, hate, and crime. In Switzerland the gun is a symbol of peace, unity, and freedom from oppression. Not to be used to hurt innocents, but to defend one's self, one's country, and one's peoples. We are all people of the world; you are all my people; we are all "our people".  Let's protect the common interests! Peace and love to all, thank you for reading!

"I don't know, I just tell it like I see it"
ICE MAN}


(Edited by WiseOne 12/20/2012 at 3:56 PM).
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 5:28 PM on December 19, 2012 | IP
IceMan

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Thanks for trying WiseOne but it is as I expected, either no one cares or no one is willing to challenge the point.  Either way its not my loss.  In my opinion there are two types of people in the world: the ignorant, and the stupid.  The difference is that ignorant people have never been exposed to the teaching or knowledge that is out there, it is not that they are unwilling to learn, they are just uninformed.  The stupid, on the other hand, have been exposed to the truth, facts, and logic, yet choose to disregard the information that has been given to them! That is how I see it. And if anyone gets offended by this I really don't care, I openly admit my ignorance! I admit that I do not know everything there is to know in this world, I have not been exposed to all the facts.  I will continue to learn, I will continue to consider other points of view, and my perception of the world will continue to change until my dying breath.


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The IceMan Cometh
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 12:13 AM on December 21, 2012 | IP
IceMan

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C'mon people! Anyone else posts something on here and y'all start arguing like school girls within minutes! I post something worth discussing, and no one is up for a debate!?  Challenge my opinion, or agree with it!  It's not that hard.  At the very least, let me know if you gained anything from it!


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The IceMan Cometh
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 5:49 PM on December 25, 2012 | IP
WiseOne

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Wow, seriously?! Over 1000 people have viewed this thread since I posted IceMan's argument and, still, no one is willing to debate it, refute it, challenge it, or even compliment it (other than me).  What happened!? Did everyone just give up? What does a person gotta do to get a debate going?  I guess I will resort to some mud slinging, seems to work for the rest of you!
You all prove you can debate the stupid shit for days.  The shit that doesn't make a bit of goddamn difference "There is no such thing as a criminal!" HAHAHA... And for your info, anyone who agrees with any shred of what FORFUNT1 wrote must be extremely fucking retarded.  As a matter of opinion: calling forfunt1 and friends retarded is a disservice to retarded people!  Read any number of forfunt1's posts and you can easily see what I mean. The dumbass discredits his/herself numerous times! forfunt1 openly admits lacking any semblance of logic or reason in his/her thought process.  And if you are reading this, forfunt1, (Which I really hope you are) keep this in mind- "This is a mind game, be careful not to compromise yourself by taking my statements personally."  On the flip side I want to give some props to some of the other members, the ones that use their heads and think things through before getting diarrhea of the keyboard! Special props go to SilverStar and Stunt_Pirate for trying to reason with forfunt1. As for the rest of you pansies: BRING IT ON!
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 9:24 PM on December 26, 2012 | IP
    
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