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EMyers

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I'm not saying that any country is morally upright as a whole.  I'm saying that there are millions of people who live in poverty, yet still stand by their moral principles and accept responsibility for their own actions and DON'T go out and steal or murder.  If people did, no one would need a gun.  Poverty doesn't CAUSE crime.  People willing to steal and murder from others (whether the perpetrators are poor or not) cause crime.

As for communism, that is my point exactly.  Everytime someone tries it they manage to get distracted on the way there.  It's a theory.  It has never worked (on any national scale) in practice.  The EARLY Christian church practiced it, but they were a "borderless" nation for lack of a better term.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 6:09 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
malignantpoodle

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Sure, you can point to individuals that are poor and abide by the law.  But, poverty most certainly causes crime, more specifically violent crime.

Look at any town and ask if the high crime areas are wealthy or poor.  Interestingly enough, the most dangerous parts of town are the poorest parts of town.  I'd like to hear of one example where you have a city, country, or other type of community that has a polarization of classes where the opposite is true.  Show me a community where the rich part of town is full of violent crime, and the ghetto part of town is safe to walk through at night.  Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that rich people are saints, but what I'm saying is that crime, especially violent and random crime, more specifically GUN crime (because that's really what we're talking about here) occurs in the poorest cities, poorest countries, least developed places.

It hasn't been that "someone tries" communism.  It's always their own personal system.  N. Korea has Juche, and like Juche Cuba has kept leadership in place through hereditary title, a big no-no in communist practice.  

And the early Christian church practiced it?  The system wasn't even developed, not to mention that religion is banned in a true communist society...  I understand you have your hunches, but I'm certain you don't fully understand exactly what communism is.
 


Posts: 17 | Posted: 6:24 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
malignantpoodle

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check this out.  look at the numbers as you go down the list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Poverty_Index

Here's something else to consider;  Switzerland's cities rank the highest for standard of living.
http://www.citymayors.com/features/quality_survey.html

but look here, we see that everybody there is packing heat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics
(hit ctrl + F and type in switzerland)

But wait, crime is almost non-existent.  Tells me that guns are not causing problems there.  Switzerland is no exception either, you look at any country in the world and the crime rate is directly related to the level of poverty in the country.

I want to see an example where the opposite is true.

(Edited by malignantpoodle 5/3/2007 at 6:35 PM).
 


Posts: 17 | Posted: 6:28 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
kindrox

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Poverty can also be relative.  Do you think the *poor* criminals in this country give a damm that they are rich by african's standards?  No, they see what other people have and they do whatever needed to get it.

I think we have a significant amount of crime because our drug war rewards violent criminals,  and a lot of our black population, for reasons that don't even matter here, see that as a method to get ahead in life.

Dangle a big fat carrot to the poor, build a system that makes it easy for them to justify breaking the law to get ahead, and just see what you get.

What makes me mad is then all the dumb americans think we can fix the results of our stupid social policies by banning guns.

I feel sorry for many criminals.  But not sorry enough to let them harm me or my family.
 


Posts: 54 | Posted: 8:22 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
qednick

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Why do left-wingers not like guns anyway? I see Rosie O'Donnell telling everyone how she thinks the neo-cons are Nazis and we need to otherthrow them and they staged 9/11, yada yada but then on the other hand she's telling everyone to hand in their weapons. If she's that paranoid then that kind of doesn't make sense to me.

Anyways, I'm neither far right or far left. I'm more of a libertarian. I don't like governments telling me how to live my life with their politically correct bullcrud sporn of egghead academia. On saying that, I'm no anarchist either. Government has its place (defense, etc.) but there's places it shouldn't be sticking its nose into either (religion, etc.).

 


Posts: 34 | Posted: 8:22 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
kindrox

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I suppose I could be described as libertarian in some ways as well.  I think people should be encouraged to take personal responsibility and not be looking at other people to take care of their every need.  In Texas about 1 in 200 people have CHLs.  Of those, how many carry at any given time?  Imagine if 10% of the eligible population carried.  Many forms of crime would simply cease to exist.

Imagine if people took responsibility for their feelings and emotions.  Imagine if people took responsibility for their finances, raising their children, you name it.  Just imagine.

I donít like communism because it does not encourage personal responsibility and you see the results from all the *communist* countries.  Our nationís form of democratic republic has a lot in common with the communistís idea of personal responsibility.

 


Posts: 54 | Posted: 8:37 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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mp,
  Read Acts 2:38 through the end of the chapter.  They didn't call it communism, but the basic tennets were there.

kindrox,
  What nation do you live in?  I thought you were from the US.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 9:55 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
kindrox

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I am in the US.  I live in Texas.
 


Posts: 54 | Posted: 9:57 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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Oh, sorry, got confused when you said "our nation" and "democratic republic" in the same sentence.  North Korea is a "democratic republic".  United States is a federal republic.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:20 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
kindrox

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I believe Texas would be a democratic republic.  We don't take to kindly to being called federals.
 


Posts: 54 | Posted: 11:40 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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In that case they would have to secede from the union.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 07:45 AM on May 4, 2007 | IP
qednick

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Ahhh, I read this after posting my question on the other thread. Where in Texas are you? I'm San Antonio.
 


Posts: 34 | Posted: 09:40 AM on May 4, 2007 | IP
malignantpoodle

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The reason many on the left support gun control is that they feel people are oppressed by those with guns.  It's really silly and ignorant, as there are many examples of societies without weapons that are regularly bullied by their government.

Our nationís form of democratic republic has a lot in common with the communistís idea of personal responsibility.

You're kidding right?  What a joke...

mp,
 Read Acts 2:38 through the end of the chapter.  They didn't call it communism, but the basic tennets were there.


I'm sorry but that bears pretty much zero resemblance to communism.  There were still division of class, practice of religion, and worship of a single leader.  They ate together and had a religious experience together.  Could you tell me which basic tenets were on par with communist ideology?

I don't put much stock in the bible anyway.  Earth created on day 1, sun created on day 4 (after plant life as well)?  The list of contradictory statements is almost infinite.

(Edited by malignantpoodle 5/4/2007 at 10:42 AM).
 


Posts: 17 | Posted: 10:36 AM on May 4, 2007 | IP
kindrox

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Our nationís form of democratic republic has a lot in common with the communistís idea of personal responsibility.

You're kidding right?  What a joke...


I am not talking about the ideals of communism, I am talking about those that actually live under it.  I have a friend from the Ukraine.  They have a saying that he who does not steal from the state steals from his own family.  Tell me this is not how much of the US population feels.

Q, I live in DFW.

 


Posts: 54 | Posted: 11:00 AM on May 4, 2007 | IP
qednick

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"Those that melt their guns into ploughs will soon find they are ploughing for those that didn't."

I just saw that today - thought it was a good one. The communism thing just reminded me of it.


 


Posts: 34 | Posted: 3:01 PM on May 4, 2007 | IP
malignantpoodle

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Uh, you didn't say anything about people living under a form of government, you used the word "idea"

Our nationís form of democratic republic has a lot in common with the communistís idea

and then...
I am not talking about the ideals of communism,

honestly I have no clue as to what you're talking about.  not trying to be rude or inflammatory, just saying I don't get your point.  But perhaps we should talk about on the politics section of the site instead of the gun control section.
 


Posts: 17 | Posted: 3:34 PM on May 4, 2007 | IP
kindrox

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To be as clear as I can, the people who actually lived the (formerly) communist country of the Ukraine thought that (during the period of time it was communist anyway) it was essentially stealing from your own family if you did not figure out a way to steal from the state.  All the ďevery body working together for  the benefit of everyoneĒ bull crap did not resonate with the people, the people believed in getting the most possible from the state using any and all means necessary.  

This does not seem to be far from much of our own populace.

 


Posts: 54 | Posted: 7:14 PM on May 4, 2007 | IP
malignantpoodle

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ah ok I see what you're saying now.

Well, first of all, I don't consider the words of one individual to be the end all be all analysis of communism (not saying that you do).  Second, speaking of Ukraine you're referring to modern Sovietism, which bears little to no resemblance of communist ideology.  Third, have you looked at statistics at all?  Ukraine is now a shithole compared to the standard of living present under Sovietism.

In any case, your friend is not far off from what I believe should be ideal, in that each should have according to their needs, and from each their abilities.  The state SHOULD be able to provide you with your necessities, so long as you were to provide the state according to your abilities.  But... on the other hand... the term "state" and "communism" are not compatible, so the whole idea of organized Sovietism is non-sequitur when debating the merits of "communism".

(Edited by malignantpoodle 5/5/2007 at 5:00 PM).
 


Posts: 17 | Posted: 4:59 PM on May 5, 2007 | IP
nurseguy

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 I don't know... i've seen 6 shooters reload in a few seconds.  Besides.  (Gun owner) I don't like leaving a gun loaded (not safe) and like being able to drop the magazine out to quickly unload.  My handgun is in a safe, magazine a few feet away.

California law has a 10 round limit on all magazines (fairly reasonable) and it means i can quickly unload my rifle by just dropping a magazine out.  I only carry a few rounds, but they're match grade and a few dollars a piece so i don't want to scratch them up by unloading one at a time.  'sides that, while unloading my old bolt (which i keep to scare the coyotes off the ranch) the safety isn't active.

California has the most strict gun control in the country.  Also the highest crime rate, about triple where i used to live, more gangs than there are insurgents in Iraq and the highest Prison population per capita in the world...

Seems the misguided gun laws are being written by folks ain't never held a gun.  Most don't even make sense, some arn't even possible.

Banning any gun that can take a magazine can be MORE dangerous, and would eliminate 80% of guns made in the last 100 years.

 My Grandma in law (still kicking)  still has the old guns some of what came out with her grandfather that homesteaded the land.  Now we don't dare go back up in the hills 'cause the pot growers have taken over.  Rigged irrigation, felled trees over trails, driving dump trucks up the road at night.  Nearest police stations 40 minute drive.

 Better if you ask me to try to get rid of the violence within ourselves.  

 Why not ban gang members, illegal aliens from owning?
 I'm not a gun nut, just believe in protecting my family.  
 
Was a time i didn't believe in gun even though we fed the family as kids bringin birds off the corn fields.  Came one night camping at a KOA when some rowdys tried to slip a tent with my wife and her cousin.  I couln't have fought them all off the girls.  Cousin's husband had a handgun.  Never even showed it.  Just showed himself with the confidence that 5 of them wouldn't overpower him.
 A same year i watched a woman get, i'll just say... attacked in my neighbors driveway.  Called the cops.  Yelled at the guy and distracted him, but he was HUGH and had a kitchen knife.  Never felt more powerless.

I bet that girl wished i had a gun, and i bet she wished there was a ban on kitchen knives...

So here i am in peaceful California.  And between the gang violence (armed or not) and the high crime, i don't feel it's safe raising a family.  Planning on moving someday, some western state where anyone can buy a gun, and suprisingly the crime rates are low.
 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 01:19 AM on July 17, 2007 | IP
Roxdog

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Here is the answer: allow permit holders to carry their guns on campus. That way, when someone goes on a rampage, perhaps their will be someone willing and able to stop it.

Simple.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 4:28 PM on July 8, 2008 | IP
SilverStar

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Quote from EMyers at 6:09 PM on May 3, 2007 :
I'm not saying that any country is morally upright as a whole. †I'm saying that there are millions of people who live in poverty, yet still stand by their moral principles and accept responsibility for their own actions and DON'T go out and steal or murder. †If people did, no one would need a gun. †Poverty doesn't CAUSE crime. †People willing to steal and murder from others (whether the perpetrators are poor or not) cause crime.

As for communism, that is my point exactly. †Everytime someone tries it they manage to get distracted on the way there. †It's a theory. †It has never worked (on any national scale) in practice. †The EARLY Christian church practiced it, but they were a "borderless" nation for lack of a better term.


I need a gun so that I can make soda can explode in my back yard.



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Darkside Enterprises were the impossible meets possible.

Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 10:55 PM on July 16, 2008 | IP
SilverStar

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Quote from EMyers at 6:09 PM on May 3, 2007 :
I'm not saying that any country is morally upright as a whole. †I'm saying that there are millions of people who live in poverty, yet still stand by their moral principles and accept responsibility for their own actions and DON'T go out and steal or murder. †If people did, no one would need a gun. †Poverty doesn't CAUSE crime. †People willing to steal and murder from others (whether the perpetrators are poor or not) cause crime.

As for communism, that is my point exactly. †Everytime someone tries it they manage to get distracted on the way there. †It's a theory. †It has never worked (on any national scale) in practice. †The EARLY Christian church practiced it, but they were a "borderless" nation for lack of a better term.


Also we do not live in your utopia, if we did we would not be debating as to what it would be like in one.



-------
Darkside Enterprises were the impossible meets possible.

Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 10:57 PM on July 16, 2008 | IP
    
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