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Pie

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I have noticed a trend in the gun control debate, primarily one coming from fallingupwards. This is, when evidence to the contrary of their opinion is presented in the form of stats, ect, they will decry it as false, crap, anything but accurate. So, this little post is an area to cast aside stats (43:1, 2.5 million DGU's per year, ect) and simply go by the logic either side uses, which will probably help to determine which has the accurate facts: Pro or Anti?
As far as I can discern from the smog in the skies over Brady Bunch HQ, the gun control ideals are:
1)The more helpless we make the public, the safer they will be.
2)Criminals obey the law.
3)That is isn't a bit strange for dealers to purchase guns in areas with little gun control, but not use them in the states they are purchased. Is this a hint?
4)That, when banning some guns doesn't work, more should be outlawed.

What did I miss?


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 8:39 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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i think you pretty well covered it.  i bet criminals would love Sarah Brady to run for president.

i think logic in this issue is lost on some people.  we need more people like you pie to help stop the ant-gun nuts.


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 8:14 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
Pie

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What luck, I found a full list. This is immense help in understanding the logic behind gun control...

http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/hci_credo.htm


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 10:02 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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here are the ideals of the gun worshipper:

1. the more guns we have, the less death we have (despite the fact that guns cause death).

2. little kids are smart enough to know not to play with guns



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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:39 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
Pie

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1)You have still not presented any evidence, much less proof of this.
2)A little educated kid, yes, is smart enough not to sh!te around with a gun.

(Edited by Pie 1/1/2003 at 11:48 PM).


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 11:48 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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x

(Edited by Pie 1/1/2003 at 11:48 PM).


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 11:48 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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"here are the ideals of the gun worshipper:

1. the more guns we have, the less death we have (despite the fact that guns cause death)."

guns in the hands of compentent americans is the greatest defense we have.

"2. little kids are smart enough to know not to play with guns"

who says?  i was 5 years old when i shot my first gun, and i always knew what was real and not to f*** with it.   ihad toy guns, that fullfilled my playing.  maybe you are one of those people that want the rest of america to raise your kids.






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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 09:08 AM on January 2, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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there have been countless of cases of little kids pointing a gun at a friend or sibling without the intention of shooting it, but accidently setting it off.

hey pie, i thought you said we werent going to offer any evidence or stats in this particular debate. just pure logic. so why are you demanding that i give evidence that more guns causes more death? i demand evidence that more guns causes less death


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:15 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Pie

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Logic and reasoning. I wasn't demanding evidence of you, just pointing out how you continue to say that without any.
PS-"there have been countless of cases of little kids pointing a gun at a friend or sibling without the intention of shooting it, but accidently setting it off."Yes, kids are shot yearly, but take it to another thread and I'll talk there.

-You said-"despite the fact that guns cause death" Note the bold-ed "fact".

" i demand evidence that more guns causes less death"
Criminals-murders, rapists, and cat burglars alike-will likely be deterred from what it is they are attemting to do if a firearm, and the threat of death is presented. This is the standard. More firearms in the hands of innocents means more deterance. However, tell me, if criminals don't obey the law, how can gun control laws stop them?







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Posts: 202 | Posted: 2:17 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 12:15 PM on January 2, 2003 :
there have been countless of cases of little kids pointing a gun at a friend or sibling without the intention of shooting it, but accidently setting it off.



where are you getting your information from? HCI?  did you know that the reports that come from HCI are by the same reporter that had rigged chevy trucks to explode and used that as a story?


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 4:57 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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where are you getting your information from? HCI?

HCI also gave an award to a professor for writing about gun myths in early America.  He is currently under investigation for lying in his book by his own university.

Both anti gunners and pro gunners accuse each other of lying.  But here is a university kicking thier own professor for lying.  HCI gives awards to liers.



 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:22 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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no, i did not get my info from HCI. i got my info from paying attention to the news


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:20 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Gun control lies = Michael Bellisles
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:33 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 8:20 PM on January 2, 2003 :
no, i did not get my info from HCI. i got my info from paying attention to the news



the news only reports what is a good story, and guns saving lives is not a good story for them. ABC, NBC, CBS, and CNN are all controled by the same type of people that run HCI.

(Edited by Maynard 1/2/2003 at 8:38 PM).

(Edited by Maynard 1/3/2003 at 1:16 PM).


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 8:38 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Pie

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Yes, it has been shown in numerous studies that most major news stations are anti gun.


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 12:52 AM on January 4, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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there have been many many times where i have turned on the news and the top-story is about a little kid who has fired a gun at a sibling by accident


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:54 AM on January 4, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 12:54 AM on January 4, 2003 :
there have been many many times where i have turned on the news and the top-story is about a little kid who has fired a gun at a sibling by accident



That is a perfect example of irresponsible gun ownership.  Responsible people secure thier weapons.  Perfect example of the irresponsible suffering tragic consequences of poor decisions.  Adults take responsibility for their own children.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:28 AM on January 4, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 12:54 AM on January 4, 2003 :
there have been many many times where i have turned on the news and the top-story is about a little kid who has fired a gun at a sibling by accident



of course, that is what gets people going.  

have you ever noticed when a news program reports on a murder, no matter the murder weapon, they almost always show a picture of a gun.



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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 6:02 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
gunmyths

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1) More guns means more people killed and injured in gun accidents
2) The more law-abiding citizens who own guns, the easier it is for criminals to obtain guns. Most of the guns on the black market are stolen guns or guns purchased from law abiding citizens. This demonstrates the problem of allowing law-abiding citizens easy access to guns- they often end up in the wrong hands.
4) Guns make it easier for criminals to kill people.
5) What if somebody has an anger management problem? Would you want them to have a gun? I know people with this problem who aren't criminals and don't have a criminal record. Althought they aren't criminals, I certainly wouldn't feel safe if they had a gun.
6) Guns don't keep you safe. Guns are inanimate objects. If people don't have guns they can find other non-violent ways to keep themselves safe- a dog, good locks etc.
7) Guns haven't done Israel much good. A lot of Israeli citizens have turned to guns for protection against terrorist attacks and in response terrorists have turned to bombings because guns don't provide protection against bombings.





(Edited by gunmyths 1/12/2003 at 2:41 PM).
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 11:35 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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finally!!! someone who agrees with me!!! ahhh, fresh air. please, please, please stick around gunmyths


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:07 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
Pie

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"1) More guns means more people killed and injured in gun accidents" More guns means less crime.
"2) The more law-abiding citizens who own guns, the easier it is for criminals to obtain guns. Most of the guns on the black market are stolen guns which demonstrates the problem of allowing law-abiding citizens easy access to guns- they often end up in the wrong hands."
Some of the guns on the black market are stolen, but many more are imported, or even manufactured. And, as soon as guns are banned, that section of black market increases. Look at drugs.
3)Three appears to be MIA ;)
"4) Guns make it easier for criminals to kill people."Well, yea. Killing people and animals with greater ease was sort of the point.
5)"What if somebody has an anger management problem? Would you want them to have a gun? I know people with this problem who aren't criminals and don't have a criminal record. Althought they aren't criminals, I certainly wouldn't feel safe if they had a gun."
A)They still have the right to self defense.
B)Even if they weren't allowed, the black market is always an option. People with problems get drugs off the black market easily enough-it would be the same with guns.
6"6) Guns don't keep you safe. Guns are inanimate objects. If people don't have guns they can find other non-violent ways to keep themselves safe- a dog, good locks etc." Guns don't kill you, either. As you just mentioned, they are inanimate objects, *Most of the anti gun crowd here seem to think they are entities unto themselves. But firearms are the best possible means of self defense. They have a high incapacitation rate, have immense psychological value, and are loud as Hell, alerting other's far more effectively than a whistle or scream.
7)"Guns haven't done Israel much good. A lot of Israeli citizens have turned to guns for protection against terrorist attacks and in response terrorists have turned to bombings because guns don't provide protection against bombings. "Guns in Israel have stopped school shootings, reduced the typical crime rate (typical=not related to the combat) and do provide at least some method of protection. Shootings by Palestinian gunmen used to be common, but they have lowered dramatically due to the arming of Israeli citizens.

It's nice to have a viable challenge again-I was getting bored with falling a sourbubblegum =p.






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Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:23 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
Pie

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Defensive Gun Uses
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

In 2000, the homocide rate in California was roughly twice that of Texas. Can you tell me which has more gun control?

People who have died due to gun control in the last century (or so):
1.5 million Armenians, 3 million Ukrainians, 6 million (?) Jews, 250,000 Gypsies, 6 million Slavs, 25 million Russians, 25 million Chinese, 1 million Ibos, 1.5 million Bengalis, 200,000 Guatemalans, 1.7 million Cambodians, 500,000 Indonesians, 200,000 East Timorese, 250,000 Burundians, 500,000 Ugandans, 2 million Sudanese, 800,000 Rwandans, 2 million North Koreans, 10,000 Kosovars. ( http://www.genocidewatch.org/iceg/background.htm)



(Edited by Pie 1/5/2003 at 01:40 AM).


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:35 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
Pie

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"In 1999 Australia mounted a massive gun confiscation effort. Citizens surrendered 640,381 firearms. The results? Homicides are up 3.2 percent; assaults are up 8 percent; and armed robberies have increased 44 percent. In the Australian state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300 percent. "


"On the other hand, when Florida passed legislation to allow citizens to carry concealed weapons, rape, robbery and assaults went down over 60 percent. "

(Edited by Pie 1/5/2003 at 01:43 AM).


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:42 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from gunmyths at 11:35 PM on January 4, 2003 :
1) More guns means more people killed and injured in gun accidents ...
(Edited by gunmyths 1/4/2003 at 11:41 PM).


1) Can't argue with that.  If you want to stop gun accidents, take away guns, duh!  That is not enough reason for me to give up my rights.

2) Hmmmm, No.  Most common source for black market, is when somone with no criminal record, purposely buys a gun to sell to someone with a criminal record.

4) Gun control will not stop murder.  That would be a great trade if you could arrange it, but you can't.

5)  What you described was a "thought crime"  The Nazis and Stalin punished people for that kind of crime.  The worst tought crime is thinking about murder.  Thinking about killing somone and wanting to kill someone is not illegal.  Planing murder with a second person is illegal.  Commiting the act is illegal, but not the thought.  If they are legally insane, you are alreadly protected by the law.  Insane people can't have firearms.

6) I already use all those non-violent methods.  What you are asking is that we should play fair and be nice with someone trying to kill me.

7)  I totally agree that a firearm won't protect me from a sucide bomber or anthrax.  But sucide bombers and anthrax is not a reason to suspend the Constitution.

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 03:44 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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excuse me pie, how can you blame the holocaust on gun control? that is the most ridiculous claim i have ever heard in my whole life. you claim that 6 million Jews have died solely because of gun control. ok ok thats it!!! you are officially bonkers!!!!


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:27 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
Pie

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No, they died because Hitler wanted em to. But, he disarmed them, and that is why such a high number were killed, as they could not resist.
Hve you nothing else to say to what me and Kelvin put down?

(Edited by Pie 1/5/2003 at 1:22 PM).


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 1:22 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
gunmyths

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Somebody said above that if we don't have guns then we'll still have murder. True. The question is will there be a reduction in murder rates? Another argument that I hear is that strict gun control laws won't prevent criminals from obtaining guns. Then why is the gun crime rate so low in other industrialized nations? It's because strict gun control laws prevent most criminals from obtaining guns in those countries."In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada and 9,390 in the United States."
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/research/firefacts.asp

Pie writes above:
"People who have died due to gun control in the last century (or so):
1.5 million Armenians, 3 million Ukrainians, 6 million (?) Jews, 250,000 Gypsies, 6 million Slavs, 25 million Russians, 25 million Chinese, 1 million Ibos, 1.5 million Bengalis, 200,000 Guatemalans, 1.7 million Cambodians, 500,000 Indonesians, 200,000 East Timorese, 250,000 Burundians, 500,000 Ugandans, 2 million Sudanese, 800,000 Rwandans, 2 million North Koreans, 10,000 Kosovars"

This is certainly a different version of history than I've heard. I don't think that guns provide protection against a tyrannical government. Do you seriously think that you and your handgun can provide any serious opposition to a well-trained military with access to weapons of mass destruction? I'll bet all those people listed above would've died whether or not they had guns. It's true that the second amendment was written to provide protection against the possibility of a tyrannical government, but that was before we had weapons of mass destruction. Two hundred years ago a private citizen could own the same weapons that were available to militaries around the world. Nowadays that simply isn't the case.

(Edited by gunmyths 1/5/2003 at 5:21 PM).
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 5:19 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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Quote from gunmyths at 5:19 PM on January 5, 2003 :
Do you seriously think that you and your handgun can provide any serious opposition to a well-trained military with access to weapons of mass destruction? 1041805299%.)[/size]


YES!



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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 6:39 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from gunmyths at 5:19 PM on January 5, 2003 :
Somebody said above that if we don't have guns then we'll still have murder. ...

(Edited by gunmyths 1/5/2003 at 5:21 PM).


No where in any anti-gun media, do they ever promise a reduction is crime.  Only a reduction in gun crime.  Of the coutnries you name, only Japan is a safe country.  All those countries have a HUGH problem with assaults, property crime, and home invasio.  The cops in London wear a dual purpose body armor, it stops both bullets and knife attacks.  U.S. cops only wear body armor to stop bullets.  Hmmmm.  One year after the Bristish effectively ended private ownership of guns.  The cops started carrying them!  Hmmm.

The Weimar Repulic tried to use gun control to protect a fragile democracy.  What it gave them was Nazi mobs running around without any fear of getting shot.

When the Second Amendment was written.  Modern military firearms were flint lock rifles.  The SA does not limit us to use flint lock rifles.  It means we use what ever is the modern military standard of the time.  It means we should be allowed to keep and bear assault rifles.

Firearms = political power.  Why would anyone want to give them up?  If you don't vote, do you give up that right just because you don't use that form of political power.  Please, please, please, don't ever give up political rights and power.  Cherish them because a very high price was paid to secure them for you.

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:14 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
Pie

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Australia, a country with some of the strictest gun control in the civilized world, also has one of the highest crime rates. Canada had a low crime rate before we incorperated our firearms registration act-which is something akin to 800% over budget-and we still do, although Toronto has had a rash of shootings recently.
Also...
There are roughly 83 million gun owners in the US. If assult rifles were legal, it is logical to assume a sizeable proportion of these people would purchase them due to their effectivness for protection, and all around "coolness". I would guess that soon over 15 million assult rifles would be in the hands of citizens soon after they would be legalized, and, presumably, this number would grow over time. Now, the US army has about 2 million personnal. How can an army of 2 million, many of whom would be firearms owners themselves, defeat a citizens army of over 10 million? The government  wouldn't use WMD's, it would kill the people they were attempting to control, and **** up the country. The army would be slaughtered.

"I'll bet all those people listed above would've died whether or not they had guns. " I'd take that bet.

"Two hundred years ago a private citizen could own the same weapons that were available to militaries around the world" And we should be able to today.

(Edited by Pie 1/5/2003 at 8:43 PM).


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 8:42 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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kelvin, you say that all of the countries that gunmyths reported have a huge problem with crime. then explain to me why they have an increbilily low amount of deaths from guns? and even if they have more assaults or theft, which is better: murder or theft? none of them are good, but i would choose the latter over murder


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:28 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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There is a problem with coparing different countries to ones own, and this is clear in the gun control debate. Switzerland has a very low crime rate-and every household has an assault rifle within it. Israel has a low crime rate, and tens of thousands of CC licenses. England has tight gun control, and a skyrocketing rate of crimes committed with firearms. You cannot get accurate results by simply saying "this country has this, and as a result, this". You have to look close to home.


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 10:32 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Less than a year ago in our local newspaper a small 100 lb woman was attacked by a felon.  She shot a killed her unarmed attacker who was 6 feet + and 200 lbs.

Explain to me how a woman like that defends herself.  She chose  not to snivel and plead for her life  She fought back.  

Oh BTW, it was rulled justified.  Judge reasoned if the felon got his hands on her, she would have met death that day.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:51 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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ok everyone, you have heard it from the man himself!!! kelvin says "gun control will stop gun deaths"


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:21 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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Yep, the lives of many criminals will be spared.


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 10:35 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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all lives should be spared, even criminal ones


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:04 AM on January 7, 2003 | IP
gunmyths

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Pie writes above:
" ‘Two hundred years ago a private citizen could own the same weapons that were available to militaries around the world’ And we should be able to today.”

So Pie you agree that private citizens should be able to own bazookas, missiles, tanks and nuclear warheads? Interesting. There are enough nuclear weapons in the world to blow up the world several times. How is a hand gun or rifle going to protect you? I don’t think it matters how many private citizens own guns.

Actually the US doesn’t have a higher crime rate it just higher number of crimes resulting in death. “For example, in 1990 a person’s chances of becoming a victim of robbery or burglary were about the same for London and New York City (burglary is higher in London, robbery higher in New York). But, notes Zimring, the likelihood of getting killed during a burglary or robbery in New York was 54 times higher.” This is because you are much more likely to encounter a criminal armed with a gun in New York City than in London.  Guns simply make it easier to kill people.
Crime in New York and London



(Edited by gunmyths 1/7/2003 at 01:37 AM).
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 01:31 AM on January 7, 2003 | IP
Pie

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1)Can private citizens afford missiles, tanks, and nuclear weapons?
2)In case you haven't noticed, rifles are still the primary weapon in armies worldwide. Therefore, these weapons in the hands of civilians can have great impact.
3)...And New York has some of the most restrictive gun control in the US. That comparisan doesn't help your cause
Anything else?


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:51 AM on January 7, 2003 | IP
Pie

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-Gun banning in the UK has caused violent crime rates to rise
-Street robberies went up 28%, violent crime up 11%, rape 14%, and murder 4%.
-In Britain, a gun crime is only recorded when there is a conviction, and unsolved gun crimes are not recorded. This creates a lower crime rate than the actual. Police in Britain have also been exposed falsifing crime reports.
-It is estimated that a third of all criminals under 25 have access to a firearm. There are about 3 million black market weapons on the street.
-After a virtual ban on handgun ownership, homocide in England and Wales hit their highest levels ever in 2000.
-The amount of gun crime in London caused senior officers to create a unit to specifically for these problems.



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Posts: 202 | Posted: 02:07 AM on January 7, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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but will you finally admit that the number of gun deaths in other countries with gun control (Great Britain, Japan, and Canada for example) is considerably lower than that of the United States? you cannot argue with facts, my friend


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

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Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:31 AM on January 7, 2003 | IP
Maynard

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so falling, it seems like you only care about crimes with guns right?  you dont seem to care that there are facts showing crime rate without guns.  so its fime with you that our crime rate will soar if there are really strict guncontrol, or no guns what so ever, as long as there is no guns right?


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Posts: 270 | Posted: 12:31 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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no maynard, all crime is bad. but i would rather have a high rate of assaults or theft and a low rate of gun deaths, than a high rate of gun deaths and a low rate of assaults or theft. ideally, we would want a low rate for both, but if i had my choice, i would choose the first one


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 2:42 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 2:42 PM on January 7, 2003 :
no maynard, all crime is bad. but i would rather have a high rate of assaults or theft and a low rate of gun deaths, than a high rate of gun deaths and a low rate of assaults or theft. ideally, we would want a low rate for both, but if i had my choice, i would choose the first one


fallingupwards84:

The British government anounced today that they had in effect been lying about crime statistics.  

"There were 73 gun homicides in England and Wales in the 2000-2001 financial year, and guns were used in only 0.1 percent of all crimes reported that year.

But government crime statistics due to be released later this week are expected to show an increase in the number of crimes involving firearms. " -By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press Writer

U.S. pro-gunners have had these statistics, but the British government has been purposely keeping them secret from their own people.

None of your arguements at this point holds water.

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:20 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 10:21 PM on January 6, 2003 :
ok everyone, you have heard it from the man himself!!! kelvin says "gun control will stop gun deaths"



I was carefull to state that gun control will not stop crime.  You substitute gun deaths to deaths due to knifves, bats, clubs, chains, razors, steel toe boots, etc...
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:23 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
gunmyths

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London's gun control laws are a lot more effective than New York's. If you can't buy a gun in New York you can just buy a gun in another state and bring it to New York. Look at John Hinkley. He tried to assasinate President Reagan. Washington D.C.'s strict gun control laws didn't prevent him from obtaining a gun. He bought a gun in Texas and then traveled to Washington D.C. That's why in order for gun control laws to be truly effective they have to be nationwide.

Evidence shows that the crime rate went down when England, Canada, and Australia passed stricter gun control laws. "The overall rate of homicide in Australia has also dropped to its lowest point since 1989 (National Homicide Monitoring Program, 1997-98 data). It remains one-fourth the homicide rate in the USA....In Canada, where new gun laws were introduced in 1991 and 1995, the number of gun deaths has reached a 30-year low.... Two years ago in the United Kingdom, civilian handguns were banned, bought back from their owners and destroyed. In the year following the law change, Scotland recorded a 17% drop in all firearm-related offences. The British Home Office reports that in the nine months following the handgun ban, firearm-related offences in England and Wales dropped by 13%. A British citizen is still 50 times less likely to be a victim of gun homicide than an American."
Go to the following link for more info. http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

(Edited by gunmyths 1/7/2003 at 8:28 PM).
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 8:24 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 12:04 AM on January 7, 2003 :
all lives should be spared, even criminal ones



Again I am suprised by your attitude.  I for one will do everything to save my life.  I want to be able to shoot at a felon when he is attacking me with a knife.  What is wrong with that?  Do you suppose that there are rules when it comes to a life and death fight?  You can fight it knife vs knife all you want.  Just don't force me to play by those same rules.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:30 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from gunmyths at 8:24 PM on January 7, 2003 :

Evidence shows that the crime rate went down when England, Canada, and Australia passed stricter gun control laws. "The overall rate of homicide in Australia has also dropped to its lowest point since 1989 (National Homicide Monitoring Program, 1997-98 data). It remains one-fourth the homicide rate in the USA....In Canada, where new gun laws were introduced in 1991 and 1995, the number of gun deaths has reached a 30-year low.... ...."

(Edited by gunmyths 1/7/2003 at 8:28 PM).


I don't belive that gun control had any effect on crime.  The crime rate in both USA and Britian has been steadly decreasing for 30 years.

Crime is more dependant on education, economics, hoplessness, employment, etc....

Those statistics mean to me that people are better off and social ills are better taken care of.


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:42 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from gunmyths at 8:24 PM on January 7, 2003 :
Scotland recorded a 17% drop in all firearm-related offences. The British Home Office reports that in the nine months following the handgun ban, firearm-related offences in England and Wales dropped by 13%. A British citizen is still 50 times less likely to be a victim of gun homicide than an American."

(Edited by gunmyths 1/7/2003 at 8:28 PM).


What is comming to light, when 3 people attack one person in the USA it is counted as 3 assaults.

When 3 people attack one person in the UK it is counted as 1 assault.

When the same people break into 15 different houses in one night in the USA it is 15 robberies.

When 15 houses are broken into in the UK by the same theives, it is counted as 1 robbery.



 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:48 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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"Great Britain one of the most violent urban societies in the Western world."- Dan Rather CBS
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:58 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
Pie

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"If you can't buy a gun in New York you can just buy a gun in another state and bring it to New York." Know why they don't use the weapons in the state they are purchased in? Because they'll get the crap shot out of them if they do. Criminals, that is.

(Edited by Pie 1/7/2003 at 9:15 PM).


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Posts: 202 | Posted: 9:11 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
    
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