PRO

Where Your Ideas can change Minds

Please visit our new forum at

http://www.4forums.com

CON


YouDebate.com Forum
» back to YouDebate.com
Register | Profile | Log In | Lost Password | Active Users | Help | Board Rules | Search | FAQ |
Custom Search
» You are not logged in.   log in | register

  YouDebate.com Forum
   Gun Control Debates
     Logic and "Facts"

Topic Jump
« Back | Next »
Multiple pages for this topic [ 1 2 3 4 ]
Forum moderated by: admin
    

    
Pie

|       |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

""In 1999 Australia mounted a massive gun confiscation effort. Citizens surrendered 640,381 firearms. The results? Homicides are up 3.2 percent; assaults are up 8 percent; and armed robberies have increased 44 percent. In the Australian state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300 percent. ""


-------
A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 9:12 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
Pie

|       |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

-Gun banning in the UK has caused violent crime rates to rise
-Street robberies went up 28%, violent crime up 11%, rape 14%, and murder 4%.
-In Britain, a gun crime is only recorded when there is a conviction, and unsolved gun crimes are not recorded. This creates a lower crime rate than the actual. Police in Britain have also been exposed falsifing crime reports.
-It is estimated that a third of all criminals under 25 have access to a firearm. There are about 3 million black market weapons on the street.
-After a virtual ban on handgun ownership, homocide in England and Wales hit their highest levels ever in 2000.
-The amount of gun crime in London caused senior officers to create a unit to specifically for these problems.
           


-------
A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 9:16 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Pie at 9:16 PM on January 7, 2003 :
-Gun banning in the UK has caused violent crime rates to rise
-Street robberies went up 28%, violent crime up 11%, rape 14%, and murder 4%.
-In Britain, a gun crime is only recorded when there is a conviction, and unsolved gun crimes are not recorded. This creates a lower crime rate than the actual. Police in Britain have also been exposed falsifing crime reports.
-It is estimated that a third of all criminals under 25 have access to a firearm. There are about 3 million black market weapons on the street.
-After a virtual ban on handgun ownership, homocide in England and Wales hit their highest levels ever in 2000.
-The amount of gun crime in London caused senior officers to create a unit to specifically for these problems.
           



Pie:

Wait til next week when the new stats from the Brithish government come out.  It is actually worse.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:04 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

|       |       Report Post




Junkie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

i would like for you to provide a link to a newspaper article explaining Great Britain's EVIL action of hiding statistics. and I DONT WANT IT TO BE ON A GUN WEBSITE.

those EVIL EVIL english!!!


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:40 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
Pie

|       |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Falling-this info is a few months old, and as a result it is strangly not up on news sites anymore. (Note-sarcasm was present there). As Kelvin said, wait until the new stats come out.


-------
A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:50 AM on January 8, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

|       |       Report Post




Junkie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

another pathetic excuse from our gun-obsessed friends


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 5:23 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
Pie

|       |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Wow, falling, this must be what? Your first victory in this side of the forum? At least it will be, until the new stats come out.


-------
A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 7:09 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

|       |       Report Post




Junkie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

i'll take what i can get


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:46 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
gunmyths

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Good point, fallingupwards. I keep hearing from the pro-gun crowd that crimes in Britain and Australia have been increasing. I read the newspaper everday. How come I never hear about this? How come I have to go to some pro-gun website to find this out? Where are these pro-gun websites getting their information from? Australia's new gun-control laws were enacted between 1996-1998. Here's a link to the Australian Institute of Criminology. It's a government website. http://www.aic.gov.au/research/homicide/stats/hvr.html It looks to me like the homicide rate has increased in some parts of Australia and has decreased in other parts. Overall, homicide in Australia has slightly decreased from 1.9 homicides per 100,000 people to 1.8 homicides per 100,000 people (over a ten year period).  
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 9:15 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from gunmyths at 9:15 PM on January 8, 2003 :
Overall, homicide in Australia has slightly decreased from 1.9 homicides per 100,000 people to 1.8 homicides per 100,000 people (over a ten year period).  


How do you count homicide?  In the USA when you have a dead body, it is a homicide.  In the UK it is a homicide when you have a dead body and convict the killer.  No conviction, no homicide in the UK.

Statistics can be a double edged sword.  You have to take each one with a grain of salt.

Crime, no matter how it is counted is been decreasing in all western countries for the last 30 years, without gun control.  The decreasing crime is more a function of taking care of social ills:  poverty, education, family breakup, economics, etc.

Both pro-gun and anti-gun will agree crime has been decreasing for 30 years, it is on all their websites.  Not just gun crime, but ALL CRIME.  To convice me that gun control is effective in reducing crime, you need to explain the previous 25 years before gun control.


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:37 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Fallingupwards:
Gunmyths:

Explain to me medically how gun control will cure sucidal depression.  

Poverty, family breakup, and high school drop out rate is not related to crime.  I have to emphasize this.  I am talking about ALL CRIME, not just GUN-CRIME.

What are your opinions.  Don't cut and paste any statistics.  Let me hear it from you.

(Edited by kelvin90703 1/8/2003 at 9:59 PM).
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:49 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
Pie

|       |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

"How come I have to go to some pro-gun website to find this out?" Because the anti gun websites don't want you finding out. If you did, it wouldn't help them much.


-------
A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 11:02 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
Pie

|       |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

In the US...
"Though the
number of
firearms owned by
private citizens
has been
increasing steadily
since 1970, the
overall rate of
homicides and
suicides has not
risen."



-------
A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 11:10 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

|       |       Report Post




Junkie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

pie, we are not asking for you to show us on an anti-gun website. we are simply asking you to show us an article in a mainstream newspaper or an unbiased source.

gun control will not cure depression by any means because of the reasons that kelvin listed. but it will decrease the suicide rate. how, you might ask? well when there is a gun available, then it is very easy for someone very depressed to kill themselves immediatley. if there is no gun available, then they would have to come up with a more creative way to kill themselves and there is a lesser chance that they will carry out the plan


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:30 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Your logic will only stop gun sucides.  Medical treatment of depression will stop both gun sucides and all other forms of sucides.

If you are 100% effective you will stop a portion of sucides.

If medical treatment is 100% effective.  It will stop 100% of gun sucides and 100% all the other sucide methods.

Medical treatment can stop gun sucides without suspending the Constitution.

Is Dan Rather of CBS 60 minutes mainstream enough?  Or how about Associated Press?  

Who do you belive?  Last time I checked HCI gave an award to Michael Bellisides?  Remember the professor kicked out of his position for lying in his anti-gun book?  Ophra and Rosie?  The movie stars with armed body guards?  Sarah Brady who bought her son a hunting rifle a few months ago?  Politician Diane Fienstien, a concealed firearms permit holder?  The British government?  When they don't count a dead body as murder?



(Edited by kelvin90703 1/9/2003 at 12:05 AM).
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:47 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Fallingupwards:

What is your opinion on crime, poverty, family stability, and highschool drop out rate?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:53 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

|       |       Report Post




Junkie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

ok, here is how i believe we can stop these things that you list:

poverty: this problem can be solved through the correct use of socialism

crime: this is a very hard subject and let me tell you why. if we take away gun control, then there will be an increase in gun deaths. but if we have gun control, then it is possible that we may see an increase in theft and assault. as i have mentioned before, you have to choose one or the other, you cant have both. i dont want an increase in gun deaths, so i choose gun control.

how can families become more stable? well, the government really doesnt have any role in that so i wont get into it

highschool drop out rate: i think the drop out rate will lessen if we concentrate less on state tests and more on learning


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:03 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from fallingupwards84 at 12:03 AM on January 9, 2003 :

poverty: this problem can be solved through the correct use of socialism



Holly S**t.  Is everyone reading this, SOCIALISM!  You mean the form of government that punishes people for thought crimes?  If you said that to the most anti-gun President we ever had, Bill Clinton, and even he would run away from faster than an olympic sprinter.

Socialism?  The idea that has taken a country full of natural resources ready for the taking, and instead produced a lazy and ineffective work force waiting for handouts.

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:15 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Pie

|       |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

"if we take away gun control, then there will be an increase in gun deaths. " 'Hactually, there wil be a decrease in both gun deaths of innocents and criminals. Innocents because the guns deter attackers from trying to kill them, and criminals because they don't want to be shot.


-------
A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 12:24 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from fallingupwards84 at 12:03 AM on January 9, 2003 :
ok, here is how i believe we can stop these things that you list:

poverty: this problem can be solved through the correct use of socialism

crime: this is a very hard subject and let me tell you why. if we take away gun control, then there will be an increase in gun deaths. but if we have gun control, then it is possible that we may see an increase in theft and assault. as i have mentioned before, you have to choose one or the other, you cant have both. i dont want an increase in gun deaths, so i choose gun control.

how can families become more stable? well, the government really doesnt have any role in that so i wont get into it

highschool drop out rate: i think the drop out rate will lessen if we concentrate less on state tests and more on learning



Each one of those items is related to producing honest, God fearing, stable, compasionate, and responsible Americans.  People who don't commit crime.  When you can take care of those social ills, you will have a citizenry that won't need firearms for protection.  Social ills produce wicked people and criminals.

Encourge kids to finish school = less crime.  Ever hear of a PhD in astrophysics doing a car jacking.  No.

Stable families = less crime.  Children who grow up in loving and stable families do not grow up wicked and evil.

Poverty = more crime.   Do I have to explain.

Socialism?  I have lost respect for you.

(Edited by kelvin90703 1/9/2003 at 12:33 AM).
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:30 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

|       |       Report Post




Junkie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

you treat socialism like it is a cuss word. when you say "thought crimes" you are referring to communism. socialism allows the same freedoms that our bill of rights includes (with the exception of the 2nd amendment of course)

Holly S**t.  Is everyone reading this, CAPITALISM!  You mean the form of government that steals from the poor and gives to the rich??? you are totally whacko!!!


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:46 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
gunmyths

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Of course, gun-control will not cure suicidal depression. However, using a gun to commit suicide makes it more likely that the suicide attempt will be successful. For example, if you try to commit suicide by taking a lot of sleeping pills there is a much greater chance that you will survive than if you use a gun.

I don't think that gun-control will reduce the overall crime rate. However, it will reduce the number crimes which involve the death of somebody. Guns don't kill people, but guns make it easier to kill people. Guns make it easier to commit both suicide and homicide.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 12:55 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Pie

|       |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Do I have to hit you on the head and spell it out to you?
1)Criminals are what they are because they break the law.
2)Gun Control is nothing but laws.
3)Criminals don't obey the law.
4)Therefore, gun control laws do not stop them. Someone who is willing to shoot someone will not worry about having to illegally obtain a firearm.

Over 80% of firearms used by criminals are purchased illegally-fat lot of good gun control does to keep them unarmed, eh?



-------
A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:12 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Pie

|       |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

"According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun. "
Taken from the US Department of Justice website.



-------
A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:15 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

You don't know your socialism too well.  Communism is the first step towards producing a socialist state.  Marx called communism a less developed socialism.  

You have to give it to the communist/socialist.  They have no crime problem.  They just take all their criminals, shoot them in the head, and bury them in a secret ditch.  Very effective.  Safe streets.

Capitalism makes the rich richer, and let's them keep it.  The poor have nothing to steal.

If you have the high tax social states in Europe in mind.  My roommate left Europe because if your a hard working agressive person, there is no way to get a job done.  The whole entire work force is always taking  vacation time mandated by law.

This is the last time I bring up socialism.  This doesn't belong here.  But now I understand who I am talking to.




 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:25 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from gunmyths at 12:55 AM on January 9, 2003 :
Of course, gun-control will not cure suicidal depression. However, using a gun to commit suicide makes it more likely that the suicide attempt will be successful. For example, if you try to commit suicide by taking a lot of sleeping pills there is a much greater chance that you will survive than if you use a gun.

I don't think that gun-control will reduce the overall crime rate. However, it will reduce the number crimes which involve the death of somebody. Guns don't kill people, but guns make it easier to kill people. Guns make it easier to commit both suicide and homicide.


You just agreed with me and dug yourself into a deep hole.

Gun control will only stop a portion of sucides.  Mental help will stop them all, without gun control.

The root cause of crime: poverty, broken families, etc.  Cure those and you stop crime and gun crime, without gun control.

Again using the statisic from Pie.  Criminals get guns from family and friends who buy them with the intent of selling them to someone who shouldn't have them.



 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:38 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

To Pie:
To Maynard:

If you have been following the last couple of posts then I bet you have both just nearly dropped dead in shock.

You have it right there.  Gun control people are out to change the USA into a socialist state.  What is scarry is when this happens the people like you and me will be the first people shot in the head and burried in a secret ditch by the government.  They have to get the guns first to make this a socialist state.  

"So don't ever give up your guns!" - Joe Foss at WW2 meuseum on December 7 2001, Governor, USMC General, NRA president, and Congressional Medial of Honor.

Pro gun control:  Politician Dianne Fienstien, Talk show host Rosie O'donel, Lobyist Sarah Brady, and academic cheat Michael Bellisides.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 02:06 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

|       |       Report Post




Junkie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

kelvin, i must say that that was one of the most ignorant posts i have ever read in my entire life. even hard-core capitalists would say this. capitalism is all the way on the right, and communism is all the way on the left. SOCIALISM is in the middle. why? because it allows for all the same freedoms, like capitalism, but also has government programs and more government involvement like communism. so it has the best of both worlds and leaves all the garbage behind.

let me give you a list of socialist nations:

Canada
Great Britain
Germany
France
Sweden

these are just a few. the last time i checked, these countries were not taking all their criminals, shooting them in the head, and burying them in a secret ditch. unless you know something that i dont.

Holly S**t.  Is everyone reading this, CAPITALISM!  You mean the form of government that allows for the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer???


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:33 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Bograt

|     |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Why should any government (capitalist, socialist, upwardist ;)  ) want gun control so badly?


-------
Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 12:44 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Maynard

|      |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Bograt at 12:44 PM on January 9, 2003 :
Why should any government (capitalist, socialist, upwardist ;)  ) want gun control so badly?



to take away all the power from the people.


-------
I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 4:56 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Bograt

|     |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

To true. The worst part is it seems to be getting favor. Oh, how do you do those quote thingys?


-------
Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 6:36 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
gunmyths

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Let me respond to Kelvin.

"Gun control will only stop a portion of sucides.  Mental help will stop them all, without gun control."
I never argued that gun-control is a cure-all.  If gun control can prevent a few people from committing suicide then gun-control is worth it. Mental help, so far, hasn't been a cure-all either. Some people still commit suicide even after therapy and psychiatric help.

"The root cause of crime: poverty, broken families, etc.  Cure those and you stop crime and gun crime, without gun control."
Until somebody can competely wipe out the root causes of crime, I think we'll still need strict gun-control. As far as I know, nobody has been able to achieve a society without criminals.

"Again using the statisic from Pie.  Criminals get guns from family and friends who buy them with the intent of selling them to someone who shouldn't have them." I think these statistics support my point of view. These statistics show that when you allow law abiding citizens to own guns, their guns often end up in the wrong hands. In contrast, in Japan it's very hard for a criminal to obtain guns because friends and family members of criminals don't own guns in the first place.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 8:30 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Maynard

|      |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

once again i will state.  GUN LAWS DONT AFFECT CRIMINALS!!!  gun control will not stop crime.  gun control only keeps innocent people unarmed.


-------
I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 8:57 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Maynard

|      |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

"I think these statistics support my point of view. These statistics show that when you allow law abiding citizens to own guns, their guns often end up in the wrong hands. In contrast, in Japan it's very hard for a criminal to obtain guns because friends and family members of criminals don't own guns in the first place. "

what kind of world do you want to live in?  one where you have no freedoms obviously.  you basically say that the government allows us to own guns?  that is complete and utter bullshit.  the government is not suppose to control us, we are suppose control the government. but obviously you dont want a world of freedom.  even if you dont like guns, it is your duty as an american to protect that which allows us to own those guns, if not you are begigning to give all of your freedoms away.  if you want gun crimes to go down, then try lobbying you elected officials to start stricter punishiment on criminals, work to get the scum off the street, fight for more educational programs about guns, take up shooting for yourself it might open a whole new world up to you, give Sarah Brady, Bill Clinton, Rosie Odonnel and all the rest of those idiots that want to take away our rights the middle finger, dont take it out on those innocent people that dont harm anybody with their guns.




-------
I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 9:07 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
gunmyths

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Maynard you say,
"what kind of world do you want to live in?  one where you have no freedoms obviously."

I never said this. Just because I'm in favor of gun-control, doesn't mean I don't support freedom. Look at Australia, Germany, Canada, and the UK. People in those countries don't have a constitutional right to own a gun. Do they want to live in a world without freedom? No, they value freedom although they don't see the private ownership of guns as a necessary part of freedom.

(Edited by gunmyths 1/9/2003 at 9:41 PM).
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 9:32 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from gunmyths at 8:30 PM on January 9, 2003 :
These statistics show that when you allow law abiding citizens to own guns, their guns often end up in the wrong hands. In contrast, in Japan it's very hard for a criminal to obtain guns because friends and family members of criminals don't own guns in the first place.


Law abiding citizens do not sell guns to felons.  People who sell guns to felon just don't do it once.  They do it many times.  Put them away for a long time after the first offense.  You get rid of 80% of illegal firearms.

Ok mental help will stop more sucides than gun control alone.  It stops both gun sucides and other methods of sucide.

When criminals stop using knives, bats, and pointy sticks.  I will give up my defensive handgun.  A pointy stick and a determined felon can still kill you.  And he doesn't have to reload.



 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:36 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Maynard

|      |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from gunmyths at 9:32 PM on January 9, 2003 :
Maynard you say,
"what kind of world do you want to live in?  one where you have no freedoms obviously."

I never said this. Just because I'm in favor of gun-control, doesn't mean I don't support freedom. Look at Australia, Germany, Canada, and the UK. People in those countries don't have a constitutional right to own a gun. Do they want to live in a world without freedom? No, they value freedom although they don't see the private ownership of guns as a necessary part of freedom.

(Edited by gunmyths 1/9/2003 at 9:41 PM).


you are wrong, you did say that.  by saying that we should change the constitution is saying that you want no freedoms.  because the constitution is there to protect your freedoms, and once you allow the government to change the constitution for our so called own protection, then you are saying to them that we dont care for our freedoms.  this country was built on the idea of freedom for the people.  the difference between America and all the other countries that keep getting brought up about no gun violence, is that those countries are not built around peoples freedoms.  

I have a great idea, why dont you and all of your anti-gunner friends move to the UK, Australia, Germany, or Canada and leave this country for those of us that want to uphold the constitution.  


-------
I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 11:50 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from fallingupwards84 at 10:33 AM on January 9, 2003 :
hind.

let me give you a list of socialist nations:

Canada
Great Britain
Germany
France
Sweden




All these countries had a king at one time.  Two of them still have royal families. Some of them still have:

royal police
royal navy
royal army
royal civil servants

Those countries have a strong tradition of being told what to do and accepting it.   They have a different definition of freedom.  Government in those countries still have a very "royal" idea about authority and citizenship.

This country has a tradition of shooting "royalist".  That is why we need the Second Amendment.  There are people who still have notions of "central authority" "central order" "enlightened government"
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:07 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Maynard:
Pie:

Get the feeling that someday we my need guns to shoot at more "royalist"?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:23 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

After reading the post, I have the suspicion that there are different ideas of freedom.

My idea of freedom.  Do what ever you want as long YOU don't hurt someone else.

Freedom does not mean:

My right to a job.  My right to police protection.  My right to live in a progressive and civilized society.  My right that everyone else will play fair.  My right that others will help me when I'm in trouble.

That is what gun control boils down to.  That others must help me when I'm in trouble.

Fallingupwards and Gunmyths.  What is your definition of freedom?  I will not comment on your post.  I would just like to know your definition of freedom.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:07 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

|       |       Report Post




Junkie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

freedom should include the right to live in a progressive and civilized society. freedom should inclue the right that others will help when you are in need


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:07 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Fallingupwards:

Please please please read this:

This is about Canadian govenment and a collective labor agreement with a union.  I did not mean to single out a socialist state.  This can apply to any government.

http://www.ufcw.net/articles/docs/the_government_is_not_here_to_help_you.html


I'll comment after you tell me what you think about it.  Then maybe you learn about my point of view.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:52 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
Pie

|       |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Gun Crime in the UK rockets 35%

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12518284&method=full&siteid=50143


-------
A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 02:19 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Pie at 02:19 AM on January 11, 2003 :
Gun Crime in the UK rockets 35%

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12518284&method=full&siteid=50143


Thanks Pie.  But in all fairness this is due to the new counting methods.  What really suprises me is the arrogance of British government attitude of "so what".  The reality is crime in the UK is a lot worse that British subjects were made to belive.  In effect the UK government has been lying to it's subjects.  I wil l wait and see.  I'm willing to bet that crime is just as bad in the UK as it is in the USA.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 06:12 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Hey anti-gunners:

Here is one about UK government that will scare you:

"The new offenses will be included in forthcoming legislation on "anti-social behavior." Penalties for the new offenses have not yet been decided, the government said.

On Thursday the government will release crime statistics that are expected to show an increase in gun offenses. " - Associated Press.

Anti-social behavior = thought crime ?

The UK government has already decided that being mean, looking dangerous, or unpleasant in character is now illegal.  They are getting ready to dig that secret ditch folks.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 06:18 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Fallingupwards:

After reading the last couple of post.  You think I am really one bad SOB.

I belive crime and a lot of social injustice is caused by the lack of compassion and increase of violence in this country.
 
Hollywood has brainwashed people to think is is OK to kill a man to solve problems.  Corporate CEOs responsible to sharehodlers are so isolated from their lowest wage earner that they don't understand his troubles.  Making the poorest employee in his company even poorer.  Politicians pretending to care for the poor, when all they really want is to stay in office.  MTV showing that the true path to wealth is to get down and party on stage rather than hardwork and staying in school.  All this by the lack of compassion and respect for people.

Turn off MTV.  Go to business school, start your own company, pay workers a decent wage.  Politicians?  We need a secret ditch for them.  Pray to God for guidance.

Whew!  My $.02
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:04 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
gunmyths

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

I'll define freedom as being able to do what you want or say what you want as long as it doesn't hurt or interfere with another person's freedom. The role of government is to protect people's freedoms.

Is gun ownership an important part of freedom? I have heard the following argument. We pay a price for our constitutional freedoms. For example, certain amendments in the bill of rights protect the rights of the accused. What is the price for this freedom? More criminals go free. However, these amendments also protect innocent people that are accused of a crime so it's worth it.

As I understand, the American colonists had recently overthrown the tyrranical British government. They wanted to insure the if it became necessary to overthrow another tyrranical government the people would be well armed and ready to do so. I have heard people argue that the second amendment may mean more gun deaths, but it also protects us against the possibility of a tyrranical government so it's worth it.

I respond by saying that guns owned by private citizens cannot compete with modern military weapons (such as tanks, nuclear missiles, bazookas, bombs, biological weapons etc). The second amendment was written for a world that existed 200 years ago.

(Edited by gunmyths 1/11/2003 at 3:06 PM).
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 3:04 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from gunmyths at 3:04 PM on January 11, 2003 :
I'll define freedom as being able to do what you want or say what you want as long as it doesn't hurt or interfere with another person's freedom.

(Edited by gunmyths 1/11/2003 at 3:06 PM).


I have not killed anyone.  I have not interfered with anyone's freedom.  So STOP INTERFERING WITH MY FREEDOM!

Afgan rebels with no airpower, tanks, or heavy equipemnt defeated the USSR with assault rifles and gumption.  If I can get the training to safely handle a nuclear missile, the practice to make sure I'm competent to use one, and a child saftey device.  Then I want a nuclear missile too.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:40 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

|     |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

The same fear you have of me having a nuclear missile, I want politicians to have when they think of me with assault rifles.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:44 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
Maynard

|      |       Report Post




Regular
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from gunmyths at 3:04 PM on January 11, 2003 :
I respond by saying that guns owned by private citizens cannot compete with modern military weapons (such as tanks, nuclear missiles, bazookas, bombs, biological weapons etc). The second amendment was written for a world that existed 200 years ago.

(Edited by gunmyths 1/11/2003 at 3:06 PM).


dont underestimate the power of the people.  and too, how many military people do you think would follow a tyrannical government and kill american civilians?  i know quite a few that wont.  i feel if the citizens of this country could get their act together we would regain control of our government.





-------
I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 6:18 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
    
Multiple pages for this topic [ 1 2 3 4 ]

Topic Jump
« Back | Next »
Multiple pages for this topic [ 1 2 3 4 ]
Forum moderated by: admin
    

Topic options: Lock topic | Unlock topic | Make Topic Sticky | Remove Sticky | Delete thread | Move thread | Merge thread

 

© YouDebate.com
Powered by: ScareCrow version 2.12
© 2001 Jonathan Bravata. All rights reserved.